Snubby revolvers with wadcutters

[JCN]

Was having a discussion a few months ago about wadcutters out of a J frame with 03RN and we were talking about whether they might penetrate too deeply.

I didn’t have any wadcutters to test until recently.

Plus I wanted to remind myself why a light J frame isn’t fun to shoot hot ammo in (trying to talk myself out of 9mm conversion).

So here is the gel test with Underwood wadcutters and semi-wadcutters.

I use 20% gel these days because there is less to transport and all data is extrapolation anyway.

So keep in mind that 16” in 20% gel is roughly equivalent to 32” in “normal” ballistic gel give or take.

79953

I liked the semi. The full wadcutter seemed to go a little far for my liking but it definitely did what it was designed to do.


https://youtu.be/6R51xQQNeWo

[03RN]

Was having a discussion a few months ago about wadcutters out of a J frame with 03RN and we were talking about whether they might penetrate too deeply.

I didn’t have any wadcutters to test until recently.

Plus I wanted to remind myself why a light J frame isn’t fun to shoot hot ammo in (trying to talk myself out of 9mm conversion).

So here is the gel test with Underwood wadcutters and semi-wadcutters.

I use 20% gel these days because there is less to transport and all data is extrapolation anyway.

So keep in mind that 16” in 20% gel is roughly equivalent to 32” in “normal” ballistic gel give or take.

79953

I liked the semi. The full wadcutter seemed to go a little far for my liking but it definitely did what it was designed to do.


https://youtu.be/6R51xQQNeWo

I'm not sure how accurate comparing any clear gel is to organic gel is.

Did you Chrono those loads?

The gold standard of gel tests with wadcutters that I've seen.
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?31785-38-Special-Lead-Bullet-Gel-Test
Tokarev

[Tokarev]

I'm not sure how accurate comparing any clear gel is to organic gel is.

Did you Chrono those loads?

The gold standard of gel tests with wadcutters that I've seen.
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?31785-38-Special-Lead-Bullet-Gel-Test
TokarevI never did much more with 38 and various loads. Decided I needed a 3" K to go with the LCR for additional data. I have the frame from J&G and a donor 4" barrel. Just never got it all sent to Karl for assembly.

Frankly the lack of primers and a steady supply of other components means any additional load testing is not likely to happen.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

[JCN]

I'm not sure how accurate comparing any clear gel is to organic gel is.

Did you Chrono those loads?

The gold standard of gel tests with wadcutters that I've seen.
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?31785-38-Special-Lead-Bullet-Gel-Test
Tokarev

It’s approximate give or take an inch or two.

30”+ is a lot.

Those loads will be ~850-900 out of a j frame.

[JCN]

03RN the test is consistent with what Tokarev found. Overpenetration in bare gel with the full wadcutter and good performance with the semi.

[WDR]

Curious if the SWC-HP load actually expanded much, and if it is, indeed actually a "gas check" bullet? I cant make it out clearly in the video or stills.

I'm more inclined to load my own SWC-HP loads (Probably with the Rimrock bullets), but I've been curious about that Underwood load for a bit.

[Salamander]

First, the Underwood 38 special wadcutter appears to be a coated DEWC (that is, solid) at an advertised 1,000 fps. Of course it overpenetrates, why would you expect anything else with that combination?.

The Black Hills 148gr HBWC that I carry in my J-frame are advertised at 700 fps, which is typical of hollow-based wadcutters. At that velocity, they're not unpleasant to shoot even in a 13oz M&P340.

If I wanted 1,000 fps recoil in my scandium-framed revolver, I'd just shoot 135gr Gold Dot short barrel (which is actually rated at 860 fps). Which in fact is what's in my reload speed strip in my pocket right now. But those get to be less fun after a few cylinders.

I do load some full power DEWC's and practice with them in heavier (28oz and up) revolvers. There could be some logic to a full power DEWC in a trail gun anyplace without large bears. It's not what I'd recommend on the street though, at least not at Underwood's claimed velocity.

[JCN]

Curious if the SWC-HP load actually expanded much, and if it is, indeed actually a "gas check" bullet? I cant make it out clearly in the video or stills.

I'm more inclined to load my own SWC-HP loads (Probably with the Rimrock bullets), but I've been curious about that Underwood load for a bit.

I can get a picture later but no expansion at all that I could tell.


First, the Underwood 38 special wadcutter appears to be a coated DEWC (that is, solid) at an advertised 1,000 fps. Of course it overpenetrates, why would you expect anything else with that combination?.

It’s exactly what I expected! That’s why I was so perplexed when 03RN said that wadcutters didn’t overpenetrate and that they were preferred for self defense. Maybe he was talking about a soft lead one or maybe it’s that these are too spicy or maybe he was remembering the semis?

Also remember that 1000fps is out of probably a 3-4” barrel.

In the reviews, these are probably 850 or so out of a J frame. Underwood is famous for their consistency.

[Salamander]

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?30080-Wadcutters-vs-Hollowpoints-for-snubnose-carry

[Ndbbm]

The suggestion is usually something like a federal gold metal match wadcutter. The product description on Federal’s site is like 690 fps out of a 4 inch barrel.

Jason

[03RN]

I can get a picture later but no expansion at all that I could tell.



It’s exactly what I expected! That’s why I was so perplexed when 03RN said that wadcutters didn’t overpenetrate and that they were preferred for self defense. Maybe he was talking about a soft lead one or maybe it’s that these are too spicy or maybe he was remembering the semis?

Also remember that 1000fps is out of probably a 3-4” barrel.

In the reviews, these are probably 850 or so out of a J frame. Underwood is famous for their consistency.

Are you sure I didn't say that they wouldn't over penetrate for my use or that I was talking about the standard 700ish fps of normal wadcutters? If you asked me before posting the video if a hot underwood wadcutter would go through a block of synthetic gel I'd of said yes without much thought.

I've never actually shot a wadcutter (I did just order 2700 of them to load up though). I don't prefer them but people like doc and Mr Dobbs recommend them at times.

[JCN]

Are you sure I didn't say that they wouldn't over penetrate for my use or that I was talking about the standard 700ish fps of normal wadcutters? If you asked me before posting the video if a hot underwood wadcutter would go through a block of synthetic gel I'd of said yes without much thought.

I've never actually shot a wadcutter (I did just order 2700 of them to load up though). I don't prefer them but people like doc and Mr Dobbs recommend them at times.

I don’t think we ever qualified the particulars but I seem to recall you saying something about tumbling so they didn’t overpenetrate. I’ll try and find the thread where we discussed it.

It was when I was saying I’d rather have a 147gr 9mm Gold Dot out of a snub than a 357 magnum because shootability and over a 38 special because power when you brought up wadcutters.

I was kind of impressed by the semi-wadcutter though.

[03RN]

I don’t think we ever qualified the particulars but I seem to recall you saying something about tumbling so they didn’t overpenetrate. I’ll try and find the thread where we discussed it.

It was when I was saying I’d rather have a 147gr 9mm Gold Dot out of a snub than a 357 magnum because shootability and over a 38 special because power when you brought up wadcutters.

I was kind of impressed by the semi-wadcutter though.

I remember the conversation but I don't think I said they tumbled. The reason I like swc is because the flat face aids in a straighter path in animals.

[WDR]

I can get a picture later but no expansion at all that I could tell.

Disappointing, but not surprising. A lot of the 158gr SWC-HP bullets don't expand well at all from snubs.

There is a lot of talking past each other going on here RE: full wadcutter bullets. Bottom line as I see it: "target" velocity softer swaged factory loads from Win/Fed/Rem are probably not going to penetrate as much as harder cast bullets from the various boutique manufacturers, which are almost universally loaded a bit hotter than the big 3 brands. A harder cast DEWC loaded at "target" velocity, might be a good idea, if you think you need more penetration from your snub fodder than you'll get with say, FGMM. That is not a common "factory" load from either the Big 3 or the "boutique" guys, so you may have to roll your own.

The biggest reason to shoot wadcutters in snubbies isn't the bullet shape or its penetration abilities (or lack thereof), its to have lighter recoiling ammo that's easier to make hits with. Loading it with hot hard cast wadcutters defeats that purpose. The snub is a compromise gun, as Doc has said.

[MolonLabe416]

I generally carry the Buffalo Bore HCWC.

[Salamander]

Bottom line as I see it: "target" velocity softer swaged factory loads from Win/Fed/Rem are probably not going to penetrate as much as harder cast bullets from the various boutique manufacturers, which are almost universally loaded a bit hotter than the big 3 brands. A harder cast DEWC loaded at "target" velocity, might be a good idea, if you think you need more penetration from your snub fodder than you'll get with say, FGMM. That is not a common "factory" load from either the Big 3 or the "boutique" guys, so you may have to roll your own.

The biggest reason to shoot wadcutters in snubbies isn't the bullet shape or its penetration abilities (or lack thereof), its to have lighter recoiling ammo that's easier to make hits with. Loading it with hot hard cast wadcutters defeats that purpose. The snub is a compromise gun, as Doc has said.

The above is a good summary.

OP: Keep in mind that Federal 38sp +p 158gr LSWCHP is described on the box as "high velocity" at 900 fps (presumably out of a longer barrel). So a 150 DEWC at 1000 is a fairly hot load by 38 sp standards. 9mm +p 147gr HST is spec'd at 1050 fps, for comparison. I can't see a lot of good reasons for a DEWC that hot other than for a woods gun. Loaded down, yes; coated DEWC don't lead the way some soft swaged HBWC do, and if loaded a little long some brands (SNS) have enough of a bevel that it's possible if not ideal to use a speedloader. I haven't chrono'd my DEWC reloads but I can assure you they're not anywhere near that fast and the recoil is modest out of a 4-inch K-frame or a Colt 3-inch D-frame.

[revchuck38]

The suggestion is usually something like a federal gold metal match wadcutter. The product description on Federal’s site is like 690 fps out of a 4 inch barrel.

Jason

Federal GMM chronographed at 635 fps from my 642. From what I've read, the Winchester and R-P loads are in the same ballpark.

[JCN]

I remember the conversation but I don't think I said they tumbled. The reason I like swc is because the flat face aids in a straighter path in animals.

Found it. I think we talked past each other and I thought you were recommending 38 wadcutters for self defense instead of 380 out of a snub.

7998279983

Makes sense if comparing a soft slow version of wadcutters against 380.

His wadcutters in the test linked still seemed to overpenetrate?

[03RN]

Found it. I think we talked past each other and I thought you were recommending 38 wadcutters for self defense instead of 380 out of a snub.

7998279983

Makes sense if comparing a soft slow version of wadcutters against 380.

His wadcutters in the test linked still seemed to overpenetrate?

I was understanding what you were saying. If I recommend something that sometimes overpenetrates then it just reflects that I like penetration. I'm carrying 255gr swc @ 940fps as we speak.

[314159]

The 2" .38 load of choice is a classic case of forgotten knowledge being rediscovered and of the limits of engineering.

I'm as guilty as anyone around on this, having asked the question early on in the "That last glass of whiskey..." thread. That was in May of this year and I've been around this Maypole more times than is comfortable to admit.

I suspect just using Federal target wadcutters (or equivalents) is the easy button here and there really isn't anything else significantly better for a lightweight or a heavyweight 2" .38 revolver. Smugly, I must admit to having a 150ish round stash of Jim Cirillo's 750 fps FMJ wadcutter load. Which also shows how long I've been at this issue. I think that would be an ideal lightweight snubby choice, particularly if it's velocity was even lowered just a bit for less recoil. But, barring hand loading, I don't see that happening anytime soon.

[4given]

I'm using Double Tap 38 Special 148GR hard cast full wadcutter match. Works well in both my snubbies.

https://doubletapammo.com/collections/38-special/products/38-special-148gr-full-wadcutter-match-20rds

[JCN]

The 2" .38 load of choice is a classic case of forgotten knowledge being rediscovered and of the limits of engineering.

I'm as guilty as anyone around on this, having asked the question early on in the "That last glass of whiskey..." thread. That was in May of this year and I've been around this Maypole more times than is comfortable to admit.

I suspect just using Federal target wadcutters (or equivalents) is the easy button here and there really isn't anything else significantly better for a lightweight or a heavyweight 2" .38 revolver. Smugly, I must admit to having a 150ish round stash of Jim Cirillo's 750 fps FMJ wadcutter load. Which also shows how long I've been at this issue. I think that would be an ideal lightweight snubby choice, particularly if it's velocity was even lowered just a bit for less recoil. But, barring hand loading, I don't see that happening anytime soon.

Thanks for that post.

The context is the Ruger LCR9 has great ballistics with 147+P HST and has less recoil but similar ballistics to the 357 short barrel Gold Dot.

So the extension was: Would a 2” 380 be ballistically better than a wimpy wadcutter in a similar 15 oz snubby?

Then the question came down to how much would you rather have a 150gr wadcutter going 750 versus a 90gr XTP going 1100fps?

[03RN]

I want whatever can reliably penetrate to the vitals.

[314159]

Context, as they say, is important. Much becomes clear.

[JCN]

I want whatever can reliably penetrate to the vitals.

I want something that I can shoot rapidly and accurately. :)

I wonder if population density plays into it when choosing ammo and firearms.

[jetfire]

Just to comment on the wadcutters chosen for this; no one in their right mind is recommending carrying a 900 FPS wadcutter for self defense. The whole point, and why we recommend stuff like the Federal GMM or the Winchester Target wadcutters is that they're at like, 700 FPS which makes them very soft shooting and easy to place on target. If I'm going to carry something making 900 FPS out of a snub I might as well just carry Gold Dots.

If you look at Lucky Gunner's 38 Special data (https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/#38spl) for the Winchester 148gr Super-X wadcutter, that's what we're looking for. Around 700 FPS out of a snub, and 15+ inches of penetration after defeating 4LD.

[JTMcC]

Just to comment on the wadcutters chosen for this; no one in their right mind is recommending carrying a 900 FPS wadcutter for self defense. The whole point, and why we recommend stuff like the Federal GMM or the Winchester Target wadcutters is that they're at like, 700 FPS which makes them very soft shooting and easy to place on target. If I'm going to carry something making 900 FPS out of a snub I might as well just carry Gold Dots.

If you look at Lucky Gunner's 38 Special data (https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/#38spl) for the Winchester 148gr Super-X wadcutter, that's what we're looking for. Around 700 FPS out of a snub, and 15+ inches of penetration after defeating 4LD.

Agreed on that bold part, the only reason to use non expanding bullets is when you have marginal (or just plain not enough) power to drive an expanding bullet to the vitals, or, in old days (Elmer) bullet construction was iffy and unreliable.

That's why handgunners use big bore non expanding bullets on larger animals. There is no reason for a hunter with a .375 H&H magnum to shoot elk with a solid 'cause he can drive a premium expanding bullet deeper than need be. That same hunter on a cape buffalo quartering away will probably have a solid loaded because his level of horsepower just became marginal for the circumstances.

With handguns we are almost always working with marginal levels of power, but many people experimenting over many years, have given us the best we can get with what we currently have. 70% or so meplat, non deforming WFN or LFN bullet, gets us as deep as the level of power allows while still giving us some range.
100% meplat (wadcutter) , non expanding bullet goes very deep and creates as much damage as possible without expansion but limits our range.

Pick your spot on the scale of: power available, size of the target, range to the target and make your best informed choices.

Some of the WFN types are creeping VERY close to full wadcutter profile. Again we have to make our choices. But a 1 7/8" .38 Special surely has it's limitations and bullet choice becomes pretty critical . Of course the monometal expanding bullets like the XPB change the game a bit and are very interesting in how deep they will drive while still opening up.

[03RN]

I want something that I can shoot rapidly and accurately. :)

I wonder if population density plays into it when choosing ammo and firearms.

I do to but it's all relative. I can shoot a full sized 9mm faster than a .357. Certainly once you're talking more than 6 rounds. The difference is just not a big deal in the real world.

9 rounds of 255gr swc @940fps loaded up here. So far today I haven't had any interactions with anyone outside my family.
80072

[Duces Tecum]

I wonder if population density plays into it when choosing ammo and firearms.

Seems like the EasyButton would be Doc's List (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4337-Service-Caliber-Handgun-Duty-and-Self-Defense-Ammo). For political reasons, cross-referencing with the largest police department in the area might be wise. Revolver ammunition may not be authorized for service carry, but it's possible that authorization for use by retired / undercover people would be listed.


Duces

[JCN]

Seems like the EasyButton would be Doc's List (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4337-Service-Caliber-Handgun-Duty-and-Self-Defense-Ammo). For political reasons, cross-referencing with the largest police department in the area might be wise. Revolver ammunition may not be authorized for service carry, but it's possible that authorization for use by retired / undercover people would be listed.


Duces

I didn’t see 38 special or 380 listed? We’re talking about underpowered ammo that nobody is really recommending.

jetfire

Being a noob to wadcutters I had no context.

I still don’t know the answer to whether a 150gr 700fps nonexpanding 38 is better or worse than a nonexpanding 380 in something like a Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator at 90gr and 1100 fps (very mild and very shootable in a 380 snub).

That was the original context of the discussion.

If I’m going to carry a snub, the 9mm LCR9 is easier to shoot than 357 gold dots out of a 17oz snub.

If I’m going to carry a 14oz snub, would I be better off with 150gr slow wadcutters or 90gr fast solid copper bullets?
What if the copper gave better ballistics while also being more shootable a la the 9mm/357 trade off?

[03RN]

I didn’t see 38 special or 380 listed? We’re talking about underpowered ammo that nobody is really recommending.

jetfire

Being a noob to wadcutters I had no context.

I still don’t know the answer to whether a 150gr 700fps nonexpanding 38 is better or worse than a nonexpanding 380 in something like a Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator at 90gr and 1100 fps (very mild and very shootable in a 380 snub).

That was the original context of the discussion.

If I’m going to carry a snub, the 9mm LCR9 is easier to shoot than 357 gold dots out of a 17oz snub.

If I’m going to carry a 14oz snub, would I be better off with 150gr slow wadcutters or 90gr fast solid copper bullets?
What if the copper gave better ballistics while also being more shootable a la the 9mm/357 trade off?

Coming from a hunting background and seeing people shot or dismembered by all manner of ordnance I'd take the 148gr wc over a 90gr solid copper bullet.

[Norville]

I didn’t see 38 special or 380 listed? We’re talking about underpowered ammo that nobody is really recommending.

jetfire

Being a noob to wadcutters I had no context.

I still don’t know the answer to whether a 150gr 700fps nonexpanding 38 is better or worse than a nonexpanding 380 in something like a Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator at 90gr and 1100 fps (very mild and very shootable in a 380 snub).

That was the original context of the discussion.

If I’m going to carry a snub, the 9mm LCR9 is easier to shoot than 357 gold dots out of a 17oz snub.

If I’m going to carry a 14oz snub, would I be better off with 150gr slow wadcutters or 90gr fast solid copper bullets?
What if the copper gave better ballistics while also being more shootable a la the 9mm/357 trade off?

Doc GKR’s take:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4336-BUG-s-380-ACP-vs-38-Sp

[GAP]

Doc GKR’s take:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4336-BUG-s-380-ACP-vs-38-Sp

The part that confuses me is how the Federal full wadcutter is recommended but isn’t it considered softer lead?

“When faced with too little penetration, as is common with lightweight .38 Sp JHP loads or too much penetration like with the wadcutters, then go with penetration. Agencies around here have used the Winchester 148 gr standard pressure lead target wadcutter (X38SMRP), as well as the Federal (GM38A) version--both work.”

I love shooting them from a 642 but I don’t have confidence in them penetrating thick bones. Isn’t the “too much penetration” argument related to how far it can travel through jello without any obstruction? Am I wrong? I haven’t found anything specially on this topic.

[JCN]

Doc GKR’s take:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4336-BUG-s-380-ACP-vs-38-Sp

Yes, but that’s comparing a 38 revolver to a 380 semi-auto.

Not a 38 revolver to a 380 revolver.

03RN I definitely defer to your military background and experience. I’m trying to wrap my mind around how differences in ballistic energy translate into real world trade offs.

For example if slower and heavier is better than faster and lighter, why would any police agency pick 124gr 9mm Gold Dots over 147gr?

My favorite self defense load is 9mm 147+P HST but I just don’t know that heavier and slower is always better.

[03RN]

Yes, but that’s comparing a 38 revolver to a 380 semi-auto.

Not a 38 revolver to a 380 revolver.

03RN I definitely defer to your military background and experience. I’m trying to wrap my mind around how differences in ballistic energy translate into real world trade offs.

For example if slower and heavier is better than faster and lighter, why would any police agency pick 124gr 9mm Gold Dots over 147gr?

My favorite self defense load is 9mm 147+P HST but I just don’t know that heavier and slower is always better.

Because speed does help when the mass is heavy enough. 124gr @1200fps is a solid load. But I'd rather have a 158gr @ 1200fps.

Don't always defer to others experience. Just log it, and get you own. Go shoot 100 deer and figure stuff out.

It's not just energy. Bullet type plays a part.

A flat nose .22 at the same speed as a 22 rn or HP kills really really well on squirrels and raccoons. Then a softer subsonic hp kills better than harder supersonic .22.

[revchuck38]

The part that confuses me is how the Federal full wadcutter is recommended but isn’t it considered softer lead?

“When faced with too little penetration, as is common with lightweight .38 Sp JHP loads or too much penetration like with the wadcutters, then go with penetration. Agencies around here have used the Winchester 148 gr standard pressure lead target wadcutter (X38SMRP), as well as the Federal (GM38A) version--both work.”

I love shooting them from a 642 but I don’t have confidence in them penetrating thick bones. Isn’t the “too much penetration” argument related to how far it can travel through jello without any obstruction? Am I wrong? I haven’t found anything specially on this topic.

Most factory wadcutter ammo is loaded with swaged HBWCs. Since its design is to provide maximum accuracy by having the skirt expand somewhat when the round is fired, a softer alloy is required. I'm unaware of any company that loads hardcast DEWCs at traditional velocities...doesn't mean there aren't any out there that do, I just haven't heard of them. If it weren't for the possible legal ramifications of using handloads in a self-defense shooting, I'd be glad to load my own.

[03RN]

I'm going to load up 2700 hardcast dewc over 4gr of 231 for my kids but depending on how they work they may be my go to 2" gun load. My only 2" guns are a 10 and my wife's 15 but I'm sure they'll work exceptionally well.

[revchuck38]

I'm going to load up 2700 hardcast dewc over 4gr of 231 for my kids but depending on how they work they may be my go to 2" gun load. My only 2" guns are a 10 and my wife's 15 but I'm sure they'll work exceptionally well.

IIRC, 3.1 grains of 231 is a factory equivalent wadcutter load. Four grains oughta be downright perky. :)

[rkittine]

For In Home defense loads, I load Hollow Base wad cutters, upside down which will open up but not penetrate walls and possibly harm others in the house. These are loaded in 2" revolvers.

[03RN]

IIRC, 3.1 grains of 231 is a factory equivalent wadcutter load. Four grains oughta be downright perky. :)

I'm guessing 850fps from a 4" gun
80098

[Duelist]

For In Home defense loads, I load Hollow Base wad cutters, upside down which will open up but not penetrate walls and possibly harm others in the house. These are loaded in 2" revolvers.

In testing I’ve seen, those skirts do not reliably openwhen loaded backwards like that. Dynamic when they do, but they collapse often as not and then you just have a mush of lead with a weird front end.

[03RN]

For In Home defense loads, I load Hollow Base wad cutters, upside down which will open up but not penetrate walls and possibly harm others in the house. These are loaded in 2" revolvers.


The hollow base wc won't be slowed down by wallboard but the hollow points will probably be plugged up and penetrate like normal wadcutters except it will fail to penetrate if it doesn't go through Sheetrock.

[revchuck38]

I'm guessing 850fps from a 4" gun

My IDPA load for a while was 4.4 grains of 231 under a 158-grain plated RN. It went ~830 fps from my 4" M10. (This was before they lowered the SSR power factor to 105.) I'm guessing your load will be a bit faster than 850 fps.

[john c]

I love shooting them from a 642 but I don’t have confidence in them penetrating thick bones. Isn’t the “too much penetration” argument related to how far it can travel through jello without any obstruction? Am I wrong? I haven’t found anything specially on this topic.

I don’t know about .38 wadcutters penetrating heavy bones, but they will reliably break them. Also, the only heavy bones in the human body are legs, upper arms, pelvis, and skull.

It’s not that .38 wadcutters are good/great defensive rounds; they’re just a very good option when looking at pocket pistols. It’s only in the past 5-10 years that 9mm pocket pistols came online that were small enough and reliable enough to eclipse the air weight j-frame.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[UNK]

The part that confuses me is how the Federal full wadcutter is recommended but isn’t it considered softer lead?

“When faced with too little penetration, as is common with lightweight .38 Sp JHP loads or too much penetration like with the wadcutters, then go with penetration. Agencies around here have used the Winchester 148 gr standard pressure lead target wadcutter (X38SMRP), as well as the Federal (GM38A) version--both work.”

I love shooting them from a 642 but I don’t have confidence in them penetrating thick bones. Isn’t the “too much penetration” argument related to how far it can travel through jello without any obstruction? Am I wrong? I haven’t found anything specially on this topic.

Im pretty sure one of the threads has pics of this.


“I've shot a number of deer with Remington WCs. From a 642 they "stick" when they hit the skull, leave a large entry wound, don't exit, and pulp the brain. Instant lights out. On double lung shots I've noted that on the entry side WCs through a rib (deer ribs are much large and more robust that people ribs for anyone who hasn't seen one) make a splintered hole large than the bullet, will penetrate all the way through, have enough energy to penetrate the rib on the far side and get stuck under the skin. JHPs that I've made similar shots with, like Critical Defense, tend to leave a bullet sized clean hole in the rib on the entry side, like it's been hit with a drill bit.

I've seen very, very few JHPs actually expand from a snub. Even one's designed for that use. Many old school loads, such as the 110gr +P+, that do expand fail to penetrate nearly enough for my comfort.”

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?39507-38-Special-Snubby-Ammo-Findings-Thoughts-and-Impressions&p=1053568&viewfull=1#post1053568

Wadcutters have been discussed multiple times here. If someone has these types of questions a search would be worth your while. Not intended for you GAP personally just for anyone who is interested.

[john c]

I didn’t see 38 special or 380 listed? We’re talking about underpowered ammo that nobody is really recommending.
jetfire

Being a noob to wadcutters I had no context.

I still don’t know the answer to whether a 150gr 700fps nonexpanding 38 is better or worse than a nonexpanding 380 in something like a Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator at 90gr and 1100 fps (very mild and very shootable in a 380 snub).

That was the original context of the discussion.

If I’m going to carry a snub, the 9mm LCR9 is easier to shoot than 357 gold dots out of a 17oz snub.

If I’m going to carry a 14oz snub, would I be better off with 150gr slow wadcutters or 90gr fast solid copper bullets?
What if the copper gave better ballistics while also being more shootable a la the 9mm/357 trade off?

The data shows that 90 gr .380 Fmj just barely meets the criteria for effective defensive rounds, while .380 jhps are unreliable. 148 gr wadcutters have better results in gel testing out of a .38 snub revolver. I’m not aware of any data about extreme penetrators, but the round nose design appears to move flesh aside rather than destroying it.

From my limited understanding The Swartz’s book about ammunition effectiveness, the penetration calculation is heavily momentum based, rather than KE based. Tissue is a thicker medium than air, and lighter, faster projectiles shed their velocity quicker in tissue than heavier projectiles. KE equals hydrostatic shock and temporary cavity, but momentum equals permanent cavity and tissue damage, VERY simply.

I don’t think that anyone would doubt that 9mm gold dots would be a better choice. 9x19 is a whole different category of cartridge compared to low pressure .38 spl and .380.


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[UNK]

For In Home defense loads, I load Hollow Base wad cutters, upside down which will open up but not penetrate walls and possibly harm others in the house. These are loaded in 2" revolvers.

How do you know this? You should show some credible testing that validates your claim. In all my time here I dont recall hearing this is a good idea.

Heres a thread with a video that has a video of backwards loaded wadcutters loaded at p+ according to the box, I didnt look at the crony results, into clear gel and it doesnt look like results are acceptable.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?32557-The-classic-backwards-38-wadcutter&p=775050&viewfull=1#post775050

[john c]

Yes, but that’s comparing a 38 revolver to a 380 semi-auto.

Not a 38 revolver to a 380 revolver.

For example if slower and heavier is better than faster and lighter, why would any police agency pick 124gr 9mm Gold Dots over 147gr?

My favorite self defense load is 9mm 147+P HST but I just don’t know that heavier and slower is always better.

All things being equal, a .380 revolver is worse in every respect than a .38 spl revolver for defensive purposes, except recoil. Everything not being equal, .380 revolvers can be somewhat smaller, lighter, and still recoil less than a .38 spl gun. .380 revolvers are a very niche gun, which is probably why only one company makes them. They are cool as hell, though. [emoji3]

With respect to the question about 124 gr Gold Dots vs 147gr, I think the answer is that there close enough to not make a real difference.

I don’t think heavier and slower are ALWAYS the best answer, but in the case of 9mm duty ammo available in North America, it’s a very good answer. The 115 gr +p loads of 25 years ago are no longer too tier compared to the 124 gr or 147 gr loads of today.


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[JCN]

john c

Great posts! Thanks!

[JCN]

How obnoxious would this be in a scandium J-frame.

Kind of 9mm Gold Dot ballistics depending on how the ~2” barrel does.

80104

[HCM]

How do you know this? You should show some credible testing that validates your claim. In all my time here I dont recall hearing this is a good idea.

Heres a thread with a video that has a video of backwards loaded wadcutters loaded at p+ according to the box, I didnt look at the crony results, into clear gel and it doesnt look like results are acceptable.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?32557-The-classic-backwards-38-wadcutter&p=775050&viewfull=1#post775050

Handloading reversed WC was the hot thing when I was a kid reading gun magazines in the 1970s and early 1980s. However like a lot of the "gun lore" from those days it was bad advice.

"back in the day" it was thought getting hollow points to open up inside the body was the key to effectiveness. My Agency was issuing 110 grain .357 magnum JHPs into the 1990s on the same theory. And.. we were wrong.

Those type loads expand prematurely and create ineffective wounds. They fail to penetrate the 12" to 18" necessary to reach the vital structures inside the body which result in stopping threats.

Not to mention use of handloads in a self defense situation can create other issues.

[UNK]

Handloading reversed WC was the hot thing when I was a kid reading gun magazines in the 1970s and early 1980s. However like a lot of the "gun lore" from those days it was bad advice.

"back in the day" it was thought getting hollow points to open up inside the body was the key to effectiveness. My Agency was issuing 110 grain .357 magnum JHPs into the 1990s on the same theory. And.. we were wrong.

Those type loads expand prematurely and create ineffective wounds. They fail to penetrate the 12" to 18" necessary to reach the vital structures inside the body which result in stopping threats.

Not to mention use of handloads in a self defense situation can create other issues.

Thats kind of my point. Its garbage info and its not something that normally gets a pass at PF.

[john c]

How obnoxious would this be in a scandium J-frame.

Kind of 9mm Gold Dot ballistics depending on how the ~2” barrel does.

80104

It’s the equivalent of a full house +p 9mm load (125 gr at a nominal 1250 fps) in 15 oz gun (S&W 360).

A Glock 43 is 18 oz.

The real issue for me with heavy loads in j-frames is that my thumb gets gouged by the cylinder release during recoil.

I’ll stick with wadcutters in my 642.


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[HCM]

Thats kind of my point. Its garbage info and its not something that normally gets a pass at PF.

Multi quote fail. I was trying to include both you and rkittine.

I recall back in those days being told in earnest about cutting a cross into the tip of JSP or LSWC bullets for carry ammo. It's right up there with the "tampons to treat gunshot wounds" crap.

[03RN]

How obnoxious would this be in a scandium J-frame.

Kind of 9mm Gold Dot ballistics depending on how the ~2” barrel does.

80104

I think that in k frames a 125gr bullet @1250fps recoil less than 158 @ 950fps.

I don't know if that means it'll be obnoxious in a j frame.

[JAH 3rd]

During a range outing, I shot 5 rounds of 1980's vintage Winchester Silvertip .357 through my S&W 340PD. Recoil was brutal. I shot 5 rounds of Speer Gold Dot .357 135gr short barrel through the 340. Felt like a medium load .357 compared to the Silvertip. I carry Winchester Ranger .38 130gr JHP in the 340.

[BN]

The real issue for me with heavy loads in j-frames is that my thumb gets gouged by the cylinder release during recoil.

I’ll stick with wadcutters in my 642.


For range practice I wrap some of this around my thumb. Keeps me from bleeding. I figure if I have to use my snub for real, a sore thumb will be the least of my problems.

https://www.amazon.com/Elastic-Adhesive-Tape%EF%BC%8CFirst-Bandages-Swelling/dp/B0813BRR8N/ref=sr_1_17?keywords=first+aid+tape&qid=1637154438&sr=8-17

[revchuck38]

How obnoxious would this be in a scandium J-frame.

Kind of 9mm Gold Dot ballistics depending on how the ~2” barrel does.

80104

That's the same advertised velocity as R-P .357 Magnum 125-grain Golden Sabre. It's unlikely that you'd get anywhere near that in a 2" barrel; my guess is that it'd be under 1,000 fps. The .38 Special +P 125-grain Golden Sabre I have went 941 fps from my 642 and is unpleasant to shoot.


I think that in k frames a 125gr bullet @1250fps recoil less than 158 @ 950fps.

I don't know if that means it'll be obnoxious in a j frame.

In a scandium J frame, it'd be on the other side of obnoxious IMO.

[jandbj]

How obnoxious would this be in a scandium J-frame.

Kind of 9mm Gold Dot ballistics depending on how the ~2” barrel does.

80104

Betting you wouldn’t get anywhere close to the advertised velocity in the j frame.

[jetfire]

How obnoxious would this be in a scandium J-frame.

Kind of 9mm Gold Dot ballistics depending on how the ~2” barrel does.

80104

I've shot that out of regular J-frames. About 2 cylinders is enough.

[Stephanie B]

How obnoxious would this be in a scandium J-frame.

Kind of 9mm Gold Dot ballistics depending on how the ~2” barrel does.

80104

“Kills on one end, maims on the other end.”

Wadcutter target loads are as much as I’ll tolerate in a 442. Clearly, YMMV.

[rkittine]

Although I never had to shoot anyone with one and see what the result was on a person, I had been asked to load up some (I had three FFLs from 1970 until 1998 and one covered my commercial reloading operation) and we played with the powder charge until we got reasonable penetration in clay or a phone book, which allowed us to look at the fired projectile and also on a test with 2 sheets of sheet rock over a set of 2x4 studs.

[jtcarm]

First, the Underwood 38 special wadcutter appears to be a coated DEWC (that is, solid) at an advertised 1,000 fps. Of course it overpenetrates, why would you expect anything else with that combination?.



This.

Why on earth push a .38 WC to 1,000 FPS? Bear protection?

It certainly doesn’t need flat trajectory, as a full WC is gonna get wobbly past 50 yards.

[revchuck38]

This.

Why on earth push a .38 WC to 1,000 FPS? Bear protection?

It certainly doesn’t need flat trajectory, as a full WC is gonna get wobbly past 50 yards.

My understanding is that wadcutter lack of stability at >50 yards was pretty much restricted to the hollow-base versions at low velocity. I know it happened with my handloads. I thought the reduced length of the DEWC and increased velocity would minimize/eliminate it.

[UNK]

Multi quote fail. I was trying to include both you and rkittine.

I recall back in those days being told in earnest about cutting a cross into the tip of JSP or LSWC bullets for carry ammo. It's right up there with the "tampons to treat gunshot wounds" crap.

Ive only seen photos but I think thats basically what Cirillo designed a deep grooved x in a plated I think wadcutter type bullet. I recall seeing pics of it a long time ago, so Im kinda fuzzy on exact details. I think I recall the expansion was pretty extreme.
Ive always wished I had one of these to examine in person.

[HCM]

Ive only seen photos but I think thats basically what Cirillo designed a deep grooved x in a plated I think wadcutter type bullet. I recall seeing pics of it a long time ago, so Im kinda fuzzy on exact details. I think I recall the expansion was pretty extreme.
Ive always wished I had one of these to examine in person.

The home made cut cross thing was not really effective.

Cirillo designed a round for snubbies called the safe stop. It had a V notch and was made of plated soft lead. I believe this design was less about expansion and more about avoiding overpentration. Expansion was a byproduct.

80154


He also designed also a plated / jacket wadcutter bullet called “The Grabber” it had a saw tooth pattern around the circumference. The primary design considerations were penetration related. The full WC / flat-ish front was designed to penetrate and provide a full diameter wound channel. The saw tooth pattern was intended to dig in (“grab” ) and penetrate when hitting bone rather than deflecting.

80153

[03RN]

Reminds me of the ramrod ends that Thompson Center made with an x to cut into a round ball

[JTMcC]

I don't "think" it's been mentioned yet, but the bowling pin bullets I see are cast in various hardness, and they are heavy for caliber.
I've never used them but if I was stuck with sub 2" guns I'd at least investigate.
No affiliation. There are multiple companies selling their versions.

https://www.badmanbullets.com/OnlineStore/proddetail.php?prod=38%2F357-230-WC-Bowling-Pin-Qty-500

[peterb]

230 grain out of a j-frame? That’d be interesting… ;-)

[JTMcC]

230 grain out of a j-frame? That’d be interesting… ;-)

Wouldn't it tho?

I like things that are interesting ;)

[jandbj]

I don't "think" it's been mentioned yet, but the bowling pin bullets I see are cast in various hardness, and they are heavy for caliber.
I've never used them but if I was stuck with sub 2" guns I'd at least investigate.
No affiliation. There are multiple companies selling their versions.

https://www.badmanbullets.com/OnlineStore/proddetail.php?prod=38%2F357-230-WC-Bowling-Pin-Qty-500

And the soft cast option... https://www.pennbullets.com/38/38-caliber.html

I’ve only shot the 230’s in 38 spl in a 77/357 bolt gun. Might be sporty in an airweight J.