Excellent DB, Cecil, Haggard (etc.) Podcast

[Guerrero]

Primary & Secondary ModCast 277 featuring our own Dagga Boy, Cecil Burch, and Chuck Haggard


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bc3tadXu2Wk

[JHC]

Primary & Secondary ModCast 277 featuring our own Dagga Boy, Cecil Burch, and Chuck Haggard


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bc3tadXu2Wk

Looking forward to it.

And btw your sigline - Kevin Williamson? Brilliant!

[Kyle Reese]

Great episode and solid info, as usual. I’m not ashamed to admit to partaking in the J-Frame lifestyle when bumming around the casa or neighborhood.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[blues]

Great episode and solid info, as usual. I’m not ashamed to admit to partaking in the J-Frame lifestyle when bumming around the casa or neighborhood.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

As it should be. :cool:

[JHC]

"It keeps me from doing stupid stuff." (regarding carrying "only" a J frame)

That's pretty funny. And profound in the context it was offered of retired or off duty SWAT guys.

[PNWTO]

Great episode and solid info, as usual. I’m not ashamed to admit to partaking in the J-Frame lifestyle when bumming around the casa or neighborhood.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I’ve been teleworking since February of last year so I’m all about the snub life. And if I’m traveling or running errands it usually involves two snubs. I rue the day when we wholly migrate back to the very-NPE office setting and it’s back to a fixed blade and a folder or two.

[JHC]

I’m not through this marathon yet but there is a lot to unpack on several levels.

I’m seeing threads back to what others termed the fetishization of guns. Not just any guns. Not leverguns or the SA35. But being jocked up like commandos. It’s in the gun culture bloodstream. It’s in parts of the political bloodstream.

[PNWTO]

... But being jocked up like commandos. It’s in the gun culture bloodstream. It’s in parts of the political bloodstream.

I can’t stand it either; detrimental to safety, ambassadorship, and many other things.

[cundiff5535]

New here, but I’m certainly looking forward to listening to this:)

[Sauer Koch]

I’m not through this marathon yet but there is a lot to unpack on several levels.

I’m seeing threads back to what others termed the fetishization of guns. Not just any guns. Not leverguns or the SA35. But being jocked up like commandos. It’s in the gun culture bloodstream. It’s in parts of the political bloodstream.


I can’t stand it either; detrimental to safety, ambassadorship, and many other things.

Isn’t that what Gabe refers to as “tactical Timmy’s” ?

This was an excellent podcast, Lee is doing an excellent job with his show.

[Rex G]

Excellent. Just finished watching it; will need to see a few more times, to process everything.

Edited to add: This one will probably become one of my “regular” things to hear, during long drives, and such, as I do with the P&S episode on Snub-Guns.

[Rex G]

New here, but I’m certainly looking forward to listening to this:)

Welcome to P-F! :)

[cundiff5535]

Thanks brother! Much love man.

[blues]

Good podcast with good, common sense advice.

Why is that so rare these days?

Thank you, gentlemen.

[Cecil Burch]

thanks everyone. That was a fun episode to do too. We could have gone hours longer, but Chuck was nodding off :)

I am really happy to see this kind of stuff get traction.

[parishioner]

I'll start with saying that was an awesome podcast. Just so sensible and what I feel the community could use more of. I thoroughly enjoyed it.

However there is one thing I'm not clear on and I hope I can articulate myself well enough because sometimes I have difficulty doing that.

I feel as though there are conflicting ideas that have been presented that I hope can be fleshed out and maybe explained a bit better to me.

On one hand we have this entire discussion about being prepared for the most likely scenario one is to encounter, for example the mugging or unwanted encounter at the gas station vs the "ISIS attack at Walmart". This would lend itself to a more minimal/practical daily load out like OC along with a small pistol vs a "roland special with a 20rd magazine" multiple spare magazines and armor in the truck. Obviously everyone needs to asses their own situation but this this seemed to be the general take away.

On the other hand, I'd like to mention a post that Cecil made recently describing writings from an older book. Ill quote the post.


One aspect of this that never fails to amaze me is how much knowledge there was before, that gets lost. We get a bit complacent in the 21st century with all the advantages to the internet age and assume that we know so much that prior generations did not, and to an extent, that is true. However, it is not true across the board. Often, we forget hard won chunks of information and knowledge and are forced to waste time and re-discover things. A great illustration of the point is this book. It is about case studies in police survival situations, and it was written in 1975. Take a look at the chapter headings. How many of those are still being brought up in an effort to learn? Chapter 12 in particular stands out screaming at me, and is perfectly applicable to the armed private citizen and their self-defense needs. “Beware of the typical and average” could have been written on a social media or blog post yesterday. It covers how there truly is no such monster as “an average gunfight/self-defense situation”. Look at one of the pages from that chapter that just shows how many of these incidents start. You still hear this kind of advice in the defensive hand gunning community – “the typical gunfight is …….” And yet in 1975 it was understood by some folks that there is no such thing. And yet nearly 50 years later we are still fighting to get that out. Just amazing to contemplate.

Daryl in this very podcast even touched on something similar when he described post incident interviews with officers and how the incidents never happened how the officer envisioned they would. What I take away from this is just that, there is no 'most likely scenario' and how these violent encounters often descend into pure chaos and to me this lends itself to the other side of the spectrum of being more prepared with something like a "roland special" or what have you since we don't know what were going to encounter.

I'm not advocating either or. I just want to explore these seemingly two opposing thoughts and find a balance somewhere. I hope this made sense. I have the utmost respect for the panel and this is not a criticism in any way. I'm probably just missing something obvious to be honest.

[revchuck38]

I think you're getting hung up by thinking "most likely scenario" rather than "more likely scenario". While there is no "typical" gunfight, it's more likely that as normal earth people we'll encounter a short-range, low round count situation. Bolke has noted in at least one of the classes I've taken with him that drawing to what he calls a "hard ready" stops most encounters right there since it's apparent that you're not food, and the bad guy is looking for an easy meal.

I'm not a convert to the J frame lifestyle, yet anyway. I'm quite comfortable with a K frame, though, and my full-size PX4s are spending more time in the safe.

[blues]

I'm not a convert of the J frame lifestyle, yet anyway. I'm quite comfortable with a K frame, though, and my full-size PX4s are spending more time in the safe.

I've been an adherent to the J-frame lifestyle for home and walking distances from home...dog walks, mailbox down on the "main road", neighbor visits etc.

Once my foot enters the 4Runner I have a G26 with a spare mag.

(POM spray, or a midget sap usually accompany as the less than lethal alternatives.)

Bolke seems to be on board with this as well, though I was doing it before I was aware of his personal choices.

[parishioner]

I think you're getting hung up by thinking "most likely scenario" rather than "more likely scenario". While there is no "typical" gunfight, it's more likely that as normal earth people we'll encounter a short-range, low round count situation.

I feel like most and more are fairly analogous in this context?

"We are most likely to encounter a short-range, low round count situation"

"We are more likely to encounter a short-range, low round count situation rather than an ISIS attack at Walmart"

The net result is the same to me. I feel like I'm taking the ACT again, lol

[45dotACP]

My thoughts on the J frame life...its for very uncomplicated situations/systems.

A grappler I respect a good deal has talked about how systems and systematic thinking tends to work well for situations that are more predictable and less chaotic, but that as the unpredictability increases, one must rely on rules of thumb, and for the most dynamic/chaotic systems, you tend to rely on intuition or your own ability to appropriately react in a self organized way (a way that's often done without mental effort), often the result of familiarity and experience.

For instance: A mugging or robbery might require a fairly straightforward systematic response of "wait for the right moment to counterattack" and is less chaotic than a mass shooting, which may require you to navigate obstacles, maintain muzzle and trigger finger discipline, consider your ability to engage an armored target, several targets etc. There are likely several rules of thumb and decision trees you have to go through in that situation.

One rule of thumb is "Carry a big, easy to shoot gun with lots of ammo and shoot the enemy until he stops. Have a long gun if you can, friends with long guns if at all possible"

But that rule is moot when you consider that the shot is 3 yards or less on a big target and you can produce a head shot in less than 1.5 seconds from a pocket drawn J frame. The responses to your situation are not very numerous. You don't need a bunch of Marines with Benelli 12 gauges and M4s.

But that rule applies more if you wind up exchanging gunfire with a criminal and the situation is no longer a basic notion of "If A then B".

"Which direction is this person going? What targets can I hit? Should I be behind cover? When do I stop shooting? How do I know he's down?"

These are usually questions that those of us who are inexperienced with this sort of thing must solve by using rules of thumb which were distilled down by smart, experienced instructors and then shared with us.

Having those skills intuitively...that is to say the skills of a two way fight with guns...is something you don't get unless you have had a lot of two way fights with guns.

As for the technical side of things...yes, we know the techniques and have the skills, but ask any purple belt today to show you all the techniques they know and I'll bet they know more than someone like Megaton Dias knew at purple belt. Some might know more than he does at black. But he is able to beat them easily, because he has intuition, which is described as rules of thumb being embodied so that you can act on them in a way that requires no real mental effort. That purple belt needs to still operate in a way that requires thought. Megaton doesn't.

Anyways I'm rambling. To me, a j frame or pocket gun is a rule of thumb by itself.

It is a single response to a highly predictable and less complex situation. It will not be sufficient for a chaotic or unpredictable situation and that limits your response to something like that to "disengage and gtfo whether that guy is dead or moving or whatever because you are out of ammo"

At this point the question is what situation seems most likely. The service gun or rifle offers you more leeway in your response, but also does require you to have an intuitive grasp of the situation at hand or at least to be functional at a high degree of competence (e.g. being well trained)

Anyways, the effect of my caffeine is waning so without making myself sound more stupid I'll defer to the smarter, more experienced guys

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[Cecil Burch]

I'm not advocating either or. I just want to explore these seemingly two opposing thoughts and find a balance somewhere. I hope this made sense. I have the utmost respect for the panel and this is not a criticism in any way. I'm probably just missing something obvious to be honest.



I am not taking it as some kind of criticism at all.

I think you are misunderstanding that we are trying to push a narrative that snubs in an NPE are more likely to be useful, than carrying a full size gun with a reload when you can dress in any manner. The point I was making - and not to speak for him but what I think Darryl was saying as well - was what I said in my opening statement when I got on the podcast (and I was NOT LATE BTW, they started earlier than we said we would!) that you need to think about your context and truly examine what scenarios you as an individual may face. The point I made in my earlier writing was that there is no such thing as "typical" because we are different, and our contexts are different. Even in LE alone, the type of gunfight a SWAT cop would face is going to be intrinsically different than what a lone patrol officer in a sparsely populated area will face. And what I may most plausibly experience as someone who spends a lot of time in a car driving for hours at a time will look far different than what someone who lives in a densely populated and congested urban zone like the middle of NYC will encounter.

As Darryl said, if you expect a violent encounter to look/feel like a specific way, and it is not that way, it could be a disaster. So don't accept that there is something typical, and instead think about your reality. Prepare, train, and gear up to what fits you. If running a Roland Special fits you, than rock on! But if it does not, then don't feel bad and think you need to mold yourself into what someone else, who die snot live your life and has no conception of what you experience, tell you what you should do.

[blues]

deleted...

...carry on.

[Wondering Beard]

I am not taking it as some kind of criticism at all.

I think you are misunderstanding that we are trying to push a narrative that snubs in an NPE are more likely to be useful, than carrying a full size gun with a reload when you can dress in any manner. The point I was making - and not to speak for him but what I think Darryl was saying as well - was what I said in my opening statement when I got on the podcast (and I was NOT LATE BTW, they started earlier than we said we would!) that you need to think about your context and truly examine what scenarios you as an individual may face. The point I made in my earlier writing was that there is no such thing as "typical" because we are different, and our contexts are different. Even in LE alone, the type of gunfight a SWAT cop would face is going to be intrinsically different than what a lone patrol officer in a sparsely populated area will face. And what I may most plausibly experience as someone who spends a lot of time in a car driving for hours at a time will look far different than what someone who lives in a densely populated and congested urban zone like the middle of NYC will encounter.

As Darryl said, if you expect a violent encounter to look/feel like a specific way, and it is not that way, it could be a disaster. So don't accept that there is something typical, and instead think about your reality. Prepare, train, and gear up to what fits you. If running a Roland Special fits you, than rock on! But if it does not, then don't feel bad and think you need to mold yourself into what someone else, who die snot live your life and has no conception of what you experience, tell you what you should do.

I apologize for the thread drift as I find the discussion very interesting but the highlighted typo above made chuckle.

[Totem Polar]

I apologize for the thread drift as I find the discussion very interesting but the highlighted typo above made chuckle.

Cecil’s P-F Covfefe moment.
:D

[NH Shooter]

At least for me, podcasts like these serve as a reality check for my own thinking. I'm happy to say that since I began hanging out on P-F many moons ago, my thinking is falling more inline with what the SMEs are advocating (perhaps there really is hope for the hopeless).

My attention was really grabbed when Chris mentioned his hand held light. Yes, a light serves to help PID a threat and what they might have in their hand. I nodded in agreement when he stated that if someone continues to advance with a bright light in their face, it's a pretty good indication that trouble is brewing.

What I would be very interested in exploring is the integration of intense photonic barriers (using powerful, high-candela lights like the Modlite OKW or PLHV2, Malkoff E2XT series, etc.) in MUC training. It seems to me that such a light could be put to good use, especially using the light to disorient and induce temporary vision impairment in low-light environments: illuminate the UC's face, then light off to begin evasion. If the threat persists, the next illumination event might be accompanied with a stream of OC (which the UC would never see coming due to the photonic barrier), then light off and continue evasion.

The use of intense light for self-defense - beyond illuminating dark areas or for PID purposes - is a topic I look forward to being discussed. Having attended Craig's MUC training, I'd be a willing participant to see just how effective an intense beam of light might be in dealing with UCs and escaping from them.

[Totem Polar]

What I would be very interested in exploring is the integration of intense photonic barriers (using powerful, high-candela lights like the Modlite OKW or PLHV2, Malkoff E2XT series, etc.) in MUC training. It seems to me that such a light could be put to good use, especially using the light to disorient and induce temporary vision impairment in low-light environments: illuminate the UC's face, then light off to begin evasion. If the threat persists, the next illumination event might be accompanied with a stream of OC (which the UC would never see coming due to the photonic barrier), then light off and continue evasion.

The use of intense light for self-defense - beyond illuminating dark areas or for PID purposes - is a topic I look forward to being discussed. Having attended Craig's MUC training, I'd be a willing participant to see just how effective an intense beam of light might be in dealing with UCs and escaping from them.

I have it on authority that this is indeed a thing in certain training circles. Back to Cecil Burch, since I believe he and one of his buddies, Glen Stilson, have taught on this very topic.

[SCCY Marshal]

While I have Youtube downloader fetching the audio from the linked video, can someone please whisper in Landfair's ear? Take a slice of donations, buy an inexpensive USB microphone to have drop-shipped to a regular guest, and e-mail a short primer on clap-testing their room.

I've tried getting people to listen to several episodes and the audio quality of guests has been a hang-up with 100% of them in a range of listening environments. P&S has a lot of good material and it could be made more accessible for a modest financial investment in production. Production value goes up, a recurring guest is more more comprehensible going forward, and the guest gets a nice gift to use on other appearances and would appreciate it.

I realize this sounds like kvetching but is meant to be positive. The material really deserves it.

[jlw]

While I have Youtube downloader fetching the audio from the linked video,

...or you could just listen to the podcast version.


https://overcast.fm/+XhSBGNY9g

[SCCY Marshal]

...or you could just listen to the podcast version.


https://overcast.fm/+XhSBGNY9g

It was easier to just copy the link and jam it into a terminal command to run in the background than go digging. Thanks for the link, though! The RSS feed at the bottom is now in my reader on the line below your podcast.

[Totem Polar]

While I have Youtube downloader fetching the audio from the linked video, can someone please whisper in Landfair's ear? Take a slice of donations, buy an inexpensive USB microphone to have drop-shipped to a regular guest, and e-mail a short primer on clap-testing their room.

I've tried getting people to listen to several episodes and the audio quality of guests has been a hang-up with 100% of them in a range of listening environments. P&S has a lot of good material and it could be made more accessible for a modest financial investment in production. Production value goes up, a recurring guest is more more comprehensible going forward, and the guest gets a nice gift to use on other appearances and would appreciate it.

I realize this sounds like kvetching but is meant to be positive. The material really deserves it.

Agreed, on all counts. The sound quality and production is shit—I get more polished projects shot to my inbox by high school musicians—but the guests and conversations are typically quite good, and are deserving of better tech and delivery.

[Jared]

Excellent episode and I learned a lot from it!

[Cecil Burch]

This is from DB. Since he is not happy with the internet in general, he asked me to post. Apparently a bunch of people have been blowing up his phone wanting his input about this.

“

My observation about the encounters and shootings not being what they envisioned was that the problems themselves were chaotic, often difficult to assess and had a lot of weird variables and ancillary issues. The actual “shooting” part of the solution was usually fairly simple and not horribly taxing if we were to replicate the marksmanship problem on a one dimensional paper target on a range. The chaos was the why to shoot, what to shoot at, and most importantly when to shoot and when to stop.
For most people they envision a front door kicked in, robbery at an ATM, or something like that. Cops envision similar stuff. Robbery at 7-11, gun pulled on a car stop, etc. Some are that simple. Most end up being some sort of crazy dynamic that just spirals into utter chaos. The force application then needs to get very fundamental at that point and as simple and clean as possible. “

[Cecil Burch]

I have it on authority that this is indeed a thing in certain training circles. Back to Cecil Burch, since I believe he and one of his buddies, Glen Stilson, have taught on this very topic.


That is true. In our Close Contact Handgun course, we introduce and have people add in handhelds to the rest of MUC and let them see how exponentially it helps the entire process.

[Totem Polar]

That is true. In our Close Contact Handgun course, we introduce and have people add in handhelds to the rest of MUC and let them see how exponentially it helps the entire process.

I’m in.

[NH Shooter]

I’m in.

I'd like to be as well!

Cecil, when you you expect to post your 2022 schedule? Is there any chance there might be a MUC class scheduled in the northeast*?

Thanks!

* The Sig Academy could be a potential venue.

[Cecil Burch]

I'd like to be as well!

Cecil, when you you expect to post your 2022 schedule? Is there any chance there might be a MUC class scheduled in the northeast*?

Thanks!

* The Sig Academy could be a potential venue.


Now that my life is getting vaguely back to a norm, I should be getting that up by Thanksgiving.

As of right now, I think the closest to the NE for that material will be next October in Wisconsin. I have a couple slots currently open, so there is still a chance I can get up there.

While it would certainly be cool to teach at SIG, I don’t know any contacts there, and moreover, if MUC should be taught for the first time there, Craig should do it. MUC is his. While I think I’m very good at teaching it, and have my own things to bring to the table (like immersion into light use in conjunction with it) I’m still not the originator. Craig should always have the first crack at things like that.

[NH Shooter]

Thanks Cecil!

I attended a NE Shooter's Summit (https://www.outdoorhub.com/news/2011/08/02/registration-for-ne-shooters-2012-summit-of-an-armed-society-now-open/) at Pelham Fish & Game (https://www.pelhamfishandgame.org/) about ten years ago where Craig gave a condensed version of his MUC course. I was also fortunate to have taken training from Dr. William Aprill (RIP) at that event.

I only mention this as it may be a possible venue, though I'm not sure these events are still taking place. In any case, I look forward to the opportunity to train with you.

[BobM]

I watched a good chunk of that on my rower yesterday morning. With any luck, I’ll be able to make one of the classes next year. Looks like good practical material being taught.

[jlw]

Thanks Cecil!

I attended a NE Shooter's Summit (https://www.outdoorhub.com/news/2011/08/02/registration-for-ne-shooters-2012-summit-of-an-armed-society-now-open/) at Pelham Fish & Game (https://www.pelhamfishandgame.org/) about ten years ago where Craig gave a condensed version of his MUC course. I was also fortunate to have taken training from Dr. William Aprill (RIP) at that event.

I only mention this as it may be a possible venue, though I'm not sure these events are still taking place. In any case, I look forward to the opportunity to train with you.

NE Shooters disbanded.

[NH Shooter]

deleted

[JHC]

This is from DB. Since he is not happy with the internet in general, he asked me to post. Apparently a bunch of people have been blowing up his phone wanting his input about this.

“

My observation about the encounters and shootings not being what they envisioned was that the problems themselves were chaotic, often difficult to assess and had a lot of weird variables and ancillary issues. The actual “shooting” part of the solution was usually fairly simple and not horribly taxing if we were to replicate the marksmanship problem on a one dimensional paper target on a range. The chaos was the why to shoot, what to shoot at, and most importantly when to shoot and when to stop.
For most people they envision a front door kicked in, robbery at an ATM, or something like that. Cops envision similar stuff. Robbery at 7-11, gun pulled on a car stop, etc. Some are that simple. Most end up being some sort of crazy dynamic that just spirals into utter chaos. The force application then needs to get very fundamental at that point and as simple and clean as possible. “

Have to reply with quote since one can only Like once. So much to unpack in so short a paragraph.