AR pistol into a carbine.

[CraigS]

I have been thinking about an AR pistol. Then I started thinking about an AR carbine in 9mm to shoot PCC in idpa. So Maybe an AR pistol in 9mm? These are guns I'd like to try but I am not sure if I would use long term. So Q#1. If one buys an AR pistol (any caliber) is it legal (ATF not IDPA) to turn it into a carbine w/ a carbine barrel and stock? Q#2. Is it even possible or do they make the mating portions different so a carbine barrel won't fit a pistol upper? I ask because my Buckmark rifle can not mount the barrel from my Buckmark pistols or vice versa. Are there certain brands of pistols that are that are manufactured to AR standards so carbine parts will fit the basic upper and lower or are all pistols made so this type of swapping doesn't work?
Q#3. If all the above isn't feasible do you have recommendations for a 9mm AR carbine that works out of the box. I keep hearing guys talk about changing parts but haven't been clear if they did it because the gun didn't run or just because they wanted something different. Thanks for your thoughts.

[psalms144.1]

Craig - I'm not a lawyer, or an ATF inspector or agent, but this is what I've been told by several: it's is totally possible and legal to put a carbine length upper on an AR9 lower. That does NOT make your AR9 a carbine - just a very long barreled pistol.

IF, however, you change your brace or bare tube into an actual rifle STOCK, then you cannot ever put a "pistol" length upper back on it, even if you switch the receiver back to the brace. Once a "rifle," always a "rifle," in the eyes of the law. To go back to sub-16" barrel length legally, you would have to register it as an SBR.

I've got quite a few rounds through a Foxtrot Mike FM-9 with 7" barrel and SBA3 - it does EVERYTHING I want/need a PCC to do, include feeding reliably from Glock magazines and locking open on an empty magazine. Lots of other lower end AR9s don't have last round bolt hold open.

[MistWolf]

IF, however, you change your brace or bare tube into an actual rifle STOCK, then you cannot ever put a "pistol" length upper back on it, even if you switch the receiver back to the brace. Once a "rifle," always a "rifle," in the eyes of the law. To go back to sub-16" barrel length legally, you would have to register it as an SBR.

This is incorrect. A pistol may be configured as a rifle, then reconfigured as a pistol, so long as at no time is the pistol in an illegal configuration during the process.

[Norville]

This is incorrect. A pistol may be configured as a rifle, then reconfigured as a pistol, so long as at no time is the pistol in an illegal configuration during the process.

This has always been my understanding. The general advice was build or buy the pistol first , then you can create a legal rifle from it with the appropriate barrel. Be sure to not reinstall the pistol upper before removal of the buttstock or you have created an unregistered SBR.

AR uppers and lowers generally interchange, I am not aware of specific pistol or rifle receivers.

My Sig MPX carbine has been quite reliable although others have had parts breakage issues.

[psalms144.1]

This is incorrect. A pistol may be configured as a rifle, then reconfigured as a pistol, so long as at no time is the pistol in an illegal configuration during the process.

I stand corrected. I'll make sure to educate my ATF contacts as well...

[dontshakepandas]

I stand corrected. I'll make sure to educate my ATF contacts as well...

I think the key point here is that it must start as a pistol to be able to go back to the pistol configuration. If you purchase something or build it initially in a rifle configuration, it must stay a rifle. If you buy/build as a pistol first, you can go back and forth.

Pistol > Rifle > Pistol is ok
Rifle > Pistol is NOT ok

All of the above is stupid as hell.

[WobblyPossum]

This is incorrect. A pistol may be configured as a rifle, then reconfigured as a pistol, so long as at no time is the pistol in an illegal configuration during the process.


I stand corrected. I'll make sure to educate my ATF contacts as well...

I believe Mistwolf is correct. Here is a link to ATF’s website which includes a link to the actual document cited: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/can-i-lawfully-make-pistol-rifle-without-registering-firearm.

[CraigS]

Ok, so you separate the pistol upper and lower. Change the barrel on the upper and change the stock on the lower and reassemble upper and lower. A long as both barrel and stock are swapped before reassembling the upper and lower you are good to go. I can live w/ that. Thanks guys.

[Screwball]

Ok, so you separate the pistol upper and lower. Change the barrel on the upper and change the stock on the lower and reassemble upper and lower. A long as both barrel and stock are swapped before reassembling the upper and lower you are good to go. I can live w/ that. Thanks guys.

Make sure a 16” barrel is installed before you put a stock on it and that the stock is off before you put a barrel less than 16” back on… easiest way to describe it.

Stupid, but so are the NFA and the GCA.

[Caballoflaco]

Ok, so you separate the pistol upper and lower. Change the barrel on the upper and change the stock on the lower and reassemble upper and lower. A long as both barrel and stock are swapped before reassembling the upper and lower you are good to go. I can live w/ that. Thanks guys.

Just buy a different complete upper with a 16” barrel made by a quality manufacturer. Then all you do is remove brace from pistol, remover the pistol upper. Install the rifle upper. Install the stock.

Changing barrels is an armorer-level task that requires special tools and knowledge to do correctly.

Also with two uppers you can then keep a dedicated optic on each upper and not worry about re-zeroing when you change configurations.

[Bergeron]

If you're certain that you'd like to shoot matches with a 9mm AR, and would prefer the shorter barrels, it makes sense to buy a pistol, get it SBR'd, and start competing.

I was initially leaning that way, but have decided upon the 16" 9mm AR rifle path instead.

[StraitR]

So long as said lower was first configured as a pistol, it can be made into a rifle and back to a pistol (and back into a rifle, etc.) as many times as you like.

If you bought (transferred) a rifle, it must stay a rifle (or NFA stamped as an SBR). If you bought (transferred) a stripped “receiver”, and then built a rifle out of it first, it must remain a rifle (or NFA stamped as an SBR). “Rifles” cannot ever be made into “pistols”.

Obviously, all NFA rules apply when playing adult legos with AR’s.

ETA: From the horses mouth…. https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/can-i-lawfully-make-pistol-rifle-without-registering-firearm

[CraigS]

That is a great point. I have changed out barrels a few times on my rifles but, thinking about it, that isn't something I would want to do on a regular basis. OTOH, swapping stocks is easy. Thanks for this thought.

[BWT]

So long as said lower was first configured as a pistol, it can be made into a rifle and back to a pistol (and back into a rifle, etc.) as many times as you like.

If you bought (transferred) a rifle, it must stay a rifle (or NFA stamped as an SBR). If you bought (transferred) a stripped “receiver”, and then built a rifle out of it first, it must remain a rifle (or NFA stamped as an SBR). “Rifles” cannot ever be made into “pistols”.

Obviously, all NFA rules apply when playing adult legos with AR’s.

ETA: From the horses mouth…. https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/can-i-lawfully-make-pistol-rifle-without-registering-firearm

Thanks - I’d always heard once made a rifle it’s a rifle. Candidly, how things are going - I wouldn’t take guys words without documentation from the ATF. Especially with the weirdness that has been the pistol brace saga.

[Rex G]

IIRC, the decision that affirmed the ability to switch back and forth, from handgun to long gun, was regarding the Thompson-Center Contender/Encore firearms. It was not an AR15/M4-specific decision. Of course, we must continue to pay attention to proposed policy changes and proposed legislation, and any relevant court decisions.

Yet, there always seems to be those who insist that one must submit a specific form, to the BATFE, if one wishes to convert a pistol to a rifle, and that such a change cannot be undone, without creating an NFA SBR. I am not a lawyer, so, I do not argue with them, but I believe that they are mistaken, at this moment in time. Of course, another rule change could change the equation.

As it stands, now, I own a LAW-foldered ~10.5” DDM4 V7P handgun, so, I try to pay attention to these issues. I had considered making it into a folding long gun, perhaps permanently, until the Texas legislature FUBARed long gun rights, this year, while passing a faux “constitutional carry” bill. (A folded long gun, inside a discreet bag, pack, or container, is no longer a viable work-around for places that prohibit handgun carry, and, “firearms” are now prohibited in places that, until September First, allowed long gun carry.) So, it makes more sense for my DDM4 V7P to remain a handgun, as there are places where licensed handguns are the only legal firearms.

Sorry for the digression.

[Screwball]

IIRC, the decision that affirmed the ability to switch back and forth, from handgun to long gun, was regarding the Thompson-Center Contender/Encore firearms. It was not an AR15/M4-specific decision. Of course, we must continue to pay attention to proposed policy changes and proposed legislation, and any relevant court decisions.

That may be the case… but it can be/has been applied to other firearms. Main point being the Beretta NEOS carbine kit. A .22 pistol, which was turned into a rifle… by installing a 16”+ barrel prior to adding the stock. AFT approved it for sale prior to Beretta offering it here… as it has been offered in Europe for some time prior. I remember when it was released here, and similar hesitation came with it… but kind of hard to argue when it was given the blessing by AFT. I can confidently say that no dogs have been shot because of a NEOS carbine kit (judging people don’t blatantly break the law with it).

Moving from there, your DD is a pistol. The LAW folder really doesn’t change much to the situation, unless you want to have a vertical grip/call it a firearm.

As a pistol, OAL is figured with the brace folded. That is what AFT “decided” to be correct, as people tried to make an AR pistol with OAL length over 26” could have a vertical grip. The LAW folder came out, and people viewed it as being a sure thing; rifles are measured with stocks extended, so if you are using a braced pistol with the brace extended… wouldn’t it be measured similarly? Why would it? AFT screwed a lot of people with legally acquired Black Aces firearms, and those who did folding braces on TAC-14s/AR pistols (myself included there, who would have created an AOW). But when they put out letters to inform people, and say to remove it… kind of goes against the thought process of every other stance they say (add a stock, no more firearm… TAC-14s or making one out of a shotgun 870 receiver; once a machine gun, always a machine gun… M2 Carbines).

Put on a 16” upper on your pistol… still a pistol. After that, swap the brace for a stock. Even if the OAL in pistol form with the 16” barrel was under 26” (not sure, never measured that setup), adding the stock allows for OAL to be measured with the stock unfolded (it seems borderline moronic… but that is AFT’s clearly explained logic).

Remove the stock/reinstall brace, pop pins and swap the 16” upper for the 10.5” upper… back to legal pistol status. Seems like it would be illegal… but that’s what happens when the ruling party makes stuff really complicated, and their own restrictions don’t even make sense compared to one another.

I agree… AR pistols can have more legal stances with certain state rules. ME allows a pistol to be “loaded” in a vehicle with permit, whereas a rifle with a magazine in it is against some fish/game law. But either classification can be a no in other states… such as NJ (which I still have family down there). Too bad LEOSA doesn’t cover an AR pistol… I mean, can fly on an airplane with my duty gun without issue. What’s a similar gun to the M4 that I qualify on each year?

But what would be very nice would be all citizens having their 2nd Amendment rights unrestricted… like our founding fathers originally wrote. However that dream will never come to light… especially in Biden’s Venezuela (America).

[mmc45414]

IIRC, the decision that affirmed the ability to switch back and forth, from handgun to long gun, was regarding the Thompson-Center Contender/Encore firearms.
This was also my understanding, and have believed that if you want to convert an Encore it might be a good idea to buy it as a complete pistol to start with. And I think another legal aspect of this is a 18yo person could buy a rifle and convert it before they turned 21yo, so doing so is illegal.

But as far as ARs go, I did decide to buy a complete built pistol lower from PSA (back when they cost $129...), so there is a 4473 out there that says I bought a pistol. And I did so before buying either of my short uppers.