Vice Block for AR Muzzle Device Installation?

[Sanch]

What kind of vice block is appropriate for muzzle device installs? In doing some reading on other forums, it seems like a regular vice block might not be good, because it's too far from the torque point and some suggest putting the vise on the barrel near the muzzle, using leather or something to protect it.

[5pins]

Giseelie reaction rod If the upper is installed.

[Sanch]

The upper is installed on the barrel. This tool seems interesting. Is there any thing else I should consider or is this it?

[OlongJohnson]

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1021330574?pid=584099

Discussed in other threads. Locks into the upper receiver as well as the barrel.

[Darth_Uno]

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1021330574?pid=584099

Discussed in other threads. Locks into the upper receiver as well as the barrel.

That's what I use.

It's just a muzzle device - you shouldn't have to go full gorilla to get it timed. Even so, a pack of shims might help for piece of mind.

[GyroF-16]

That's what I use.

It's just a muzzle device - you shouldn't have to go full gorilla to get it timed. Even so, a pack of shims might help for piece of mind.

I haven’t done a muzzle device before, but have two SF3Ps to put on 300 BLK uppers after I remove the existing birdcage devices… the 3Ps come with shims and threadlocker.
Do I need / should I use a device like the Midway tool?
I was kind of imagining just having my son hold the gun on the workbench while I used a wrench on the muzzle device. Is that not a good plan?

Serious question. Otherwise I need to order from Midway. Geissele is quite expensive and also out of stock (seems very common for Geissele these days).

ETA: it seems this is only for 5.56, or at least not for .308. Now not sure if it would help for 300 BLK uppers from Aero and PSA.
Any input appreciated.

[mmc45414]

ETA: it seems this is only for 5.56, or at least not for .308. Now not sure if it would help for 300 BLK uppers from Aero and PSA.
You will be good. It just grabs the barrel extension and does not engage the bore.
But would not work for AR-10.

[GyroF-16]

You will be good. It just grabs the barrel extension and does not engage the bore.
But would not work for AR-10.

Thanks- but is it important for just doing a muzzle device? Two, actually.
I don’t imagine it’s something I’ll need to do more than every couple years, at most.

[Doc_Glock]

Thanks- but is it important for just doing a muzzle device? Two, actually.
I don’t imagine it’s something I’ll need to do more than every couple years, at most.

It makes the replacement trivial. I was happy to have it. You might get by with the receiver in a vice but then you put torque on the receiver. I have a Reaction Rod I would be happy to ship you if you just want it for this install.

The Surefire shim kits work pretty well. I just did one. I was intimidated by this install, but it went very well, just follow the directions.

The Midway tool is better than the Reaction Rod and I would just buy the thing if I were you.

Edit: Actually I like the Midwest Industries Rod better: $104

https://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/MI-Upper-Receiver-Rod-p/mi-urr.htm

[mmc45414]

Thanks- but is it important for just doing a muzzle device? Two, actually.
I don’t imagine it’s something I’ll need to do more than every couple years, at most.You could probably get by with this
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1019456936

But be careful about using anything that just grabs the upper by the pins.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

[mmc45414]

Back in front of the computer, can reply better.
I would urge you not to be tempted to use something like this:
79461
It is not that hard to rip the pins through the upper. I have one to use for stuff like clamping my long 26" upper in a vice while I clean the bore, but they are sketchy for twisting stuff. You would probably get away with it for a muzzle device, unless you don't.

One thing I have done is use a couple short pieces of automotive heater hose, slit lengthwise to cover the vice jaws (or wrap around the barrel), and that might work.

[5pins]

You could probably get by with this
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1019456936

But be careful about using anything that just grabs the upper by the pins.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk


That would work well, and the price is right.

What I like about the Geissele is it allows me to rotate the upper in any orientation like upside down when installing a gas block or on the side if I'm putting in a gas tube roll pin.

[mmc45414]

That would work well, and the price is right.

What I like about the Geissele is it allows me to rotate the upper in any orientation like upside down when installing a gas block or on the side if I'm putting in a gas tube roll pin. I have the Midwest, and it has a fin, but it comes off with two screws, but I have never taken it off. I planned to, but I always just rotate the shank in the vice.

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[GyroF-16]

Many thanks to mmc45414 and 5pins for all the suggestions. And to Doc_Glock for the kind offer.
Getting advice from guys that have done it before Is one of the best benefits of P-F.
Looks like I need to get a bench vice, or better yet figure out which of my friends has a vice.

[OlongJohnson]

You could probably get by with this
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1019456936

In spite of my earlier recommendation, I don't own a reaction rod yet. I have built several uppers with the Wheeler version of the receiver block linked above, and it works fine. The only issue is the clamping surface is narrower than the button on a forward assist, so you need to use an extra piece of wood or something so you don't put a flat on the FA and possibly bend or damage the FA or receiver with the vise. Or maybe use a vise that has jaws shorter than 8 inches so you can have the barrel nut on one side and the FA button on the other.


Many thanks to mmc45414 and 5pins for all the suggestions. And to Doc_Glock for the kind offer.
Getting advice from guys that have done it before Is one of the best benefits of P-F.
Looks like I need to get a bench vice, or better yet figure out which of my friends has a vice.

Several of your friends probably have vices, and that can be fun, but it would be more useful to find out which ones have a vise.

[mmc45414]

Getting advice from guys that have done it before Is one of the best benefits of P-F.
During quarentine some people learned a second language. I worked on AR-15s... [emoji41][emoji106]



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[GyroF-16]

In spite of my earlier recommendation, I don't own a reaction rod yet. I have built several uppers with the Wheeler version of the receiver block linked above, and it works fine. The only issue is the clamping surface is narrower than the button on a forward assist, so you need to use an extra piece of wood or something so you don't put a flat on the FA and possibly bend or damage the FA or receiver with the vise. Or maybe use a vise that has jaws shorter than 8 inches so you can have the barrel nut on one side and the FA button on the other.



Several of your friends probably have vices, and that can be fun, but it would be more useful to find out which ones have a vise.

That one took me a minute… yes, some of them have original and entertaining vices, but that probably is unrelated to the likelihood of vise ownership.

[Doc_Glock]

Many thanks to @mmc45414 (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=12255) and @5pins (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=2029) for all the suggestions. And to @Doc_Glock (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=12978) for the kind offer.
Getting advice from guys that have done it before Is one of the best benefits of P-F.
Looks like I need to get a bench vice, or better yet figure out which of my friends has a vice.


Bench vise should be number one priority! That solves a lot of problems without the rod even.

[Darth_Uno]

And if you have a bench vise, you can flip your (flattop) upper sideways and clamp it between two blocks of wood. No professional is going to recommend this, but...it's probably fine for muzzle devices.

[gringop]

I use this BEV Block from Magpul.

https://magpul.com/firearm-accessories/other/tools-and-parts-kits/bevblock-ar15-m4.html?mp_global_color=118

It has the advantage that you can flip it over and use it as a holder while working on lowers.

It does require that you pull the bolt out of the BCG and use the BCG to help lock in the upper to it. Doesn't work for 308 AR-10 type uppers.

The $50 price is nice.

Gringop

[EricP]

I use this BEV Block from Magpul.

https://magpul.com/firearm-accessories/other/tools-and-parts-kits/bevblock-ar15-m4.html?mp_global_color=118

It has the advantage that you can flip it over and use it as a holder while working on lowers.

It does require that you pull the bolt out of the BCG and use the BCG to help lock in the upper to it. Doesn't work for 308 AR-10 type uppers.

The $50 price is nice.

Gringop

This is what I have and use as well. It does key into the barrel extension similarly to the reaction rods. The bolt carrier was a pretty tight fit on the stabilizing boss. Lube helped.

[Screwball]

I use this BEV Block from Magpul.

I use that, as well…

Only thing that sucks is that you can’t use it on blowback guns, like 9mm. Those… I just go easy when I work on them.

I did have a Spikes upper with Adams Arms piston/barrel that broke the index pin that fixed the extension/barrel. Locked in the Magpul block, and barrel spun to about 1:00. Spike’s was zero help… CS asked for info/pictures, got COVID, then forgot about the situation (even though the email thread was present).

Contacted Adams Arms, and their CS was awesome. Representative didn’t work at Adams Arms when the barrel was offered (stainless 1:8”), but was professional and said they will check and see if it is a warranty issue. Got it back a week or so later, with a new production 1:7” barrel installed.

Recommend the block, but if there is a bad job with the extension pin… going to break it either way.

[mmc45414]

Recommend the block, but if there is a bad job with the extension pin… going to break it either way.
That is the point of one with a fin that rides in the charging handle slot, it is holding the upper AND the barrel.

[Screwball]

That is the point of one with a fin that rides in the charging handle slot, it is holding the upper AND the barrel.

As does the bolt carrier with the Magpul block… in addition to the front pivot pin loop.

Even if that is the case… the pin/extension/upper were all secured during my example. The barrel, itself, spun… no tool/block/rod is going to stop it if there is an issue there (index pin that goes thru the extension to pin the barrel).

That is not saying brand X block or rod won’t do the job. You really can screw up an upper just by muscling the muzzle device. But it didn’t make my barrel break where a reaction rod would have kept it from failing.

[mmc45414]

As does the bolt carrier with the Magpul block… in addition to the front pivot pin loop.

Even if that is the case… the pin/extension/upper were all secured during my example. The barrel, itself, spun… no tool/block/rod is going to stop it if there is an issue there (index pin that goes thru the extension to pin the barrel).

That is not saying brand X block or rod won’t do the job. You really can screw up an upper just by muscling the muzzle device. But it didn’t make my barrel break where a reaction rod would have kept it from failing.
I considered the Magpul unit, but I might not be tracking on how it would stabilize the upper? Would it be because the carrier key is up in the charging handle slot?
Not trying to argue, but my understanding was that your barrel broke the pin holding the barrel extension to the barrel?
Part of the reason I splurged (I bought the Midwest Industries) is because I liked the way that the upper is held by the fin, and the barrel (barrel extension, more accurately) is held by the lugs on the rod. So the friction of turning the barrel nut against the barrel extension is working directly against the rod in the vice. And the friction of the threads is working against the fin up in the charging handle slot. The interface of the pin to the slot in the upper is isolated.
But I might not be understanding how the barrel broke.

ETA:

I did have a Spikes upper with Adams Arms piston/barrel that broke the index pin that fixed the extension/barrel. Locked in the Magpul block, and barrel spun to about 1:00.
Were you working the barrel nut? On or off? or a muzzle device?

[Screwball]

I considered the Magpul unit, but I might not be tracking on how it would stabilize the upper? Would it be because the carrier key is up in the charging handle slot?
Not trying to argue, but my understanding was that your barrel broke the pin holding the barrel extension to the barrel?
Part of the reason I splurged (I bought the Midwest Industries) is because I liked the way that the upper is held by the fin, and the barrel (barrel extension, more accurately) is held by the lugs on the rod. So the friction of turning the barrel nut against the barrel extension is working directly against the rod in the vice. And the friction of the threads is working against the fin up in the charging handle slot. The interface of the pin to the slot in the upper is isolated.
But I might not be understanding how the barrel broke.

ETA:

Were you working the barrel nut? On or off? or a muzzle device?

https://magpul.com/firearm-accessories/other/tools-and-parts-kits/bevblock-ar15-m4.html?mp_global_color=118

I mean, should be a better visual than explanation… there is contact in the charging handle slot, in addition of the bolt carrier.

When that barrel spin occurred, I pulled the block and looked at the feed ramps… were lined up perfectly to the ones on the upper. That showed that the upper and extension were secured. I rotated the barrel back to 12:00 (popped right back), and started down the road of contacting Spikes for their crappy CS… getting fed up, and luckily being taken care of by Adams Arms.

And it was the muzzle device… coming off. It has a torque value of 35 foot/pounds. Thought it was funny how I torqued it once, and occurred on the removal when I got shims to time it.

And not taking it as arguing… just giving my experience with a situation that using the right tools still gave a crappy outcome.

[mmc45414]

https://magpul.com/firearm-accessories/other/tools-and-parts-kits/bevblock-ar15-m4.html?mp_global_color=118

I mean, should be a better visual than explanation… there is contact in the charging handle slot, in addition of the bolt carrier.

When that barrel spin occurred, I pulled the block and looked at the feed ramps… were lined up perfectly to the ones on the upper. That showed that the upper and extension were secured. I rotated the barrel back to 12:00 (popped right back), and started down the road of contacting Spikes for their crappy CS… getting fed up, and luckily being taken care of by Adams Arms.

And it was the muzzle device… coming off. It has a torque value of 35 foot/pounds. Thought it was funny how I torqued it once, and occurred on the removal when I got shims to time it.

And not taking it as arguing… just giving my experience with a situation that using the right tools still gave a crappy outcome.I see the key there now.
Your barrel spun inside the extension? Guess nuthin would have stopped that.

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[MistWolf]

It’s good to have receiver blocks and there are several to choose from. While you’re making up your mind, get a couple of blocks of wood, say four to six inches long cut from a two by four. Cut a V groove in both. Use them to clamp your barrel between the gas block and muzzle in a vise. Use a rag for padding, if you like.

Or, if the AR has a front sight block, use the wood to clamp the barrel there.

[OlongJohnson]

That barrel spinning is weird. Harrison Beene, the owner of AR-15 Performance, has described how barrel extensions are normally hydraulically torqued. Said he's attempted to remove them with all sorts of equipment and failed. Your experience was definitely an outlier and something that shouldn't have happened.

[ssc45]

I have numerous vise blocks, including the magpul. However for changing a MD, I use the midwest industries reaction rod. I think it is better than the G rod.
https://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/MI-Upper-Receiver-Rod-p/mi-urr.htm

Hence, I second the above folks who recommend this device.

Cheers, Steve