Gun Shows’ Role in Gun Trafficking- Illinois/Missouri Indictment

[DrkBlue]

Not here to debate 2A, NFA, etc.
I found this indictment interesting - location, age, motivation, etc.
And for the record, I went to my local gun show yesterday. I managed to avoid purchasing any beef jerky or precious stones while I was there.

TLDR is a 71yoa guy is buying guns at gun shows and reselling to a network that serves the Chicago entrepreneurial market.
https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndil/pr/four-men-charged-federal-firearm-offenses-allegedly-trafficking-guns-st-louis-chicago

A reminder of Chicago’s violence issues - https://heyjackass.com/

Taken Verbatim from the Federal Indictment
Individual A explained that the “old white dude” (NARUP) gave him 7 Glocks without boxes.

“Glock are normally an instant sell dealing with me lol, but if it’s a good price I’m typically interested as well !.”

“I got two model 22s, a model 23 which is a .40, a 26 with a beam on it, what the fuck else I got—I got on Hellcat, and I got some cheaper stuff, an XDS, ah, let see, one 17 … I probably got eight, nine Glocks or more.”

“Yes I do. Yeah. I thought I had it sold the other day but we were $50 apart and I’m a stubborn son of a bitch.”

NARUP admitted that since his retirement in November of 2020, he has regularly gone to gun shows, purchased firearms from individuals, and then re-sold these firearms for profit to several individuals including Individual A. NARUP stated that this was a significant portion of his income.

NARUP admitted that he had sold Individual A about 40 to 50 firearms in the last six months, which NARUP understood Individual A took to Illinois and sold to an Illinois resident. In response to Agents’ questions about NARUP’s thoughts on his firearms being used in violent crime in Chicago, NARUP stated, “I think about it all the time.” When asked why he continued to sell guns to Individual A when he (NARUP) was concerned that the firearms he sold to Individual A could be used in violent crime in Chicago, NARUP stated, “I like dead presidents” (money).

https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndil/press-release/file/1443986/download

[Flamingo]

Well, the old dude was acting as a gun dealer... should have gotten a FFL. If he was knowingly buying the guns for gangbanger then he deserves jail time. Although the last big straw purchase case I remember reading about the guy got probation for 500 or so straw purchases.

[Horseman]

... Although the last big straw purchase case I remember reading about the guy got probation for 500 or so straw purchases.


A couple of years back, the old, defunct Second City Cop blog reported a Chicago female also got probation for buying numerous guns in Indiana for her significant other, a convicted felon and gang member. He then sold them for a large profit.

[HeavyDuty]

A couple of years back, the old, defunct Second City Cop blog reported a Chicago female also got probation for buying numerous guns in Indiana for her significant other, a convicted felon and gang member. He then sold them for a large profit.

*cough*KimmyFoxx*cough*

[BWT]

Make an example of him.

We’re out here raiding Larry Vickers and making examples of Youtubers and grandpa says he likes dead presidents selling guns in “Chiraq” and he’s fine with what happens due to his actions.

My heart may be too hard.

[HCM]

Make an example of him.

We’re out here raiding Larry Vickers and making examples of Youtubers and grandpa says he likes dead presidents selling guns in “Chiraq” and he’s fine with what happens due to his actions.

My heart may be too hard.

First the so called “raid” on Larry Vickers was administrative After he failed to renew his SOT and apparently did not respond to communications for 90 days. While I personally suspect the oversight related to his medical issues, AnSOT is a business.

With regard to the straw purchaser, this is a story that has been repeated many times, and who knows if he’s telling the truth. He could be genuinely bothered by the consequences of his action but he could just as easily be a white supremacist who thinks supplying guns for minorities to kill each other in Chicago is advancing his ideology.

[SecondsCount]

I'm not going to say that 71 YO guy is in any way right in what he is doing but look at this from another angle.

The government is failing at criminal rehab. They keep the market going by slapping the hands of the gang bangers and putting them back on the streets.

If they are too dangerous to have a gun then they should be locked up. When you have 75% of murders and assaults committed by felons, you have other problems besides guns.

[BWT]

First the so called “raid” on Larry Vickers was administrative After he failed to renew his SOT and apparently did not respond to communications for 90 days. While I personally suspect the oversight related to his medical issues, AnSOT is a business.

With regard to the straw purchaser, this is a story that has been repeated many times, and who knows if he’s telling the truth. He could be genuinely bothered by the consequences of his action but he could just as easily be a white supremacist who thinks supplying guns for minorities to kill each other in Chicago is advancing his ideology.

That’s fair. I sat with a coworker and listened as she talked about how her sister was raped and murdered in Chicago while we worked together. The coworker was a former police officer and just sitting there listen - this one struck a nerve for me when the dude says and I quote “I like to collect dead presidents”.

Probably over reacted on my behalf but, to me Im just fatigued with the hoops law abiding folks go through and legislation that’s directed towards us and we have a no crap gun trafficker and they won’t punish him but circle back to us.

Anyway, probably not the appropriate venue or response.

ETA: I guess I just felt my words meant very little to that person in that time and I had no avenue to aid or advise other than just apologize and listen. Meanwhile grandpa could’ve gotten a part time job at Target or Chik Fil A and made probably equivalent earnings.

[JRB]

The problem here isn't the gun show, it's the individual dealing in firearms illegally, and across state lines. A problem further exacerbated by a state and prosecution that somehow refuses to enforce existing laws on straw purchasers and illegal dealers.

Buying into the narrative that its a 'gun show' loophole solves zero problems. It's a legal system loophole that is perpetuated by DA's and Feds that seem recalcitrant or even straight-up refusing to prosecute these cases.
Everything bad about this situation is already a felony. Why isn't that being prosecuted?

Edit:

Another thought. Blaming the venue of the crime for the crime itself is absolutely fucking stupid. What's next? Blaming parking lots for auto burglary and auto theft? The venue that provides a criminal opportunity for criminal behavior is not what is at fault - it's the criminal's fault for engaging in criminal behavior.

[peterb]

The problem here isn't the gun show, it's the individual dealing in firearms illegally, and across state lines. A problem further exacerbated by a state and prosecution that somehow refuses to enforce existing laws on straw purchasers and illegal dealers.

Buying into the narrative that its a 'gun show' loophole solves zero problems. It's a legal system loophole that is perpetuated by DA's and Feds that seem recalcitrant or even straight-up refusing to prosecute these cases.
Everything bad about this situation is already a felony. Why isn't that being prosecuted?

Edit:

Another thought. Blaming the venue of the crime for the crime itself is absolutely fucking stupid. What's next? Blaming parking lots for auto burglary and auto theft? The venue that provides a criminal opportunity for criminal behavior is not what is at fault - it's the criminal's fault for engaging in criminal behavior.

If a buyer has to pass a background check for every purchase, does a high number of purchases in a year make them a person of interest? I honestly don’t know.

[Horseman]

*cough*KimmyFoxx*cough*

Zing!

[TAZ]

If a buyer has to pass a background check for every purchase, does a high number of purchases in a year make them a person of interest? I honestly don’t know.

Most likely, especially near high crime areas. Wasn’t there some hub bub about border states reporting multiple purchases a whine back. How many other programs out there that weren’t reported on??

The guy is a POS if he was knowingly selling to bangers or prohibited people. Wonder if the prosecution will deal with him if he rolls on a bunch of felons in possession. I’m thinking not so much in this case.

What could be the chances this guy is some domestic version of Fast and Furious?

The stats show that a large % of violent crimes are committed by repeat offenders. If any of these “sophisticated” DA’s and judges had any care for the communities they serve vs their political masters, they would be doing everything to get repeat offenders off of streets and into/under jails. Whatever it takes. Instead they are in many of the most violent areas simply playing revolving door circle jerking. Forgive me if my trust, belief or whatever is at an all time low.

The problem of violent thugs, while not possible to eliminate, can be far better managed if the folks in positions to manage would give a rats ass about the job they are hired for. Instead, crime is nothing but a political tool to gain more power by leveraging the fear it creates.

[TGS]

The problem here isn't the gun show, it's the individual dealing in firearms illegally, and across state lines. A problem further exacerbated by a state and prosecution that somehow refuses to enforce existing laws on straw purchasers and illegal dealers.

Buying into the narrative that its a 'gun show' loophole solves zero problems. It's a legal system loophole that is perpetuated by DA's and Feds that seem recalcitrant or even straight-up refusing to prosecute these cases.
Everything bad about this situation is already a felony. Why isn't that being prosecuted?

Edit:

Another thought. Blaming the venue of the crime for the crime itself is absolutely fucking stupid. What's next? Blaming parking lots for auto burglary and auto theft? The venue that provides a criminal opportunity for criminal behavior is not what is at fault - it's the criminal's fault for engaging in criminal behavior.

I'm not sure we're reading the same documents; I'm honestly not sure where you're getting some of this.

Nothing about the affidavit or press announcement "blames" gun shows. Gun shows were only mentioned tangentially and simply as a matter of fact as the place where one of the subjects was purchasing guns. In addition, the word "loophole", or anything portraying gunshows as a loophole, is not used anywhere in either the affadavit or press announcement.

And, as for this in particular:


Everything bad about this situation is already a felony. Why isn't that being prosecuted?

I'm not sure what you mean, it is being prosecuted. To be accurate, 4 individuals are being prosecuted as part of this thus far.

[HCM]

I'm not going to say that 71 YO guy is in any way right in what he is doing but look at this from another angle.

The government is failing at criminal rehab. They keep the market going by slapping the hands of the gang bangers and putting them back on the streets.

If they are too dangerous to have a gun then they should be locked up. When you have 75% of murders and assaults committed by felons, you have other problems besides guns.

Criminal rehab is bullshit but the govt is failing at punishment too. It's the classic weak men make hard times cycle.


"If they are too dangerous to have a gun then they should be locked up." is simply feel good horseshit. First, jail space is an expensive and finite resource. Second, felons are prohibited for the same reason they are excluded from certain professions: because they have a history of seriously poor impulse control and / or making seriously bad decisions and thus are not good candidates for making life or death decisions.

Now if you want to argue that too many low level offenses have been made felonies, largely due to under punishment of misdemeanors, you might be onto something.

[HCM]

If a buyer has to pass a background check for every purchase, does a high number of purchases in a year make them a person of interest? I honestly don’t know.

Possibly. But the nature and timing are factors too.

Are they buying multiple guns at once ?

Are they buying multiples of the same guns or a whole bunch of different or slightly different guns ?

A guy buying 20 identical WASR AKs would be of more interest than a guy buying 20 different AK variants.

Are they buying multiples of the same gun but spreading it among different dealers ?

Do they seem have the means / disposable income to support the purchases ? How many 20 year olds can afford to buy a $10k Barret or semi auto belt fed.

[HCM]

I'm not sure we're reading the same documents; I'm honestly not sure where you're getting some of this.

Nothing about the affidavit or press announcement "blames" gun shows. Gun shows were only mentioned tangentially and simply as a matter of fact as the place where one of the subjects was purchasing guns. In addition, the word "loophole", or anything portraying gunshows as a loophole, is not used anywhere in either the affadavit or press announcement.

And, as for this in particular:



I'm not sure what you mean, it is being prosecuted. To be accurate, 4 individuals are being prosecuted as part of this thus far.

This ^^^

Like "lie and try" cases, knowing someone is straw purchasing is one thing, but proving it in court is resource intensive and IMHO the sentences typically handed down for straw purchasers far too lenient given the damage they do to the community. Since resources are finite, they are focused on the most egregious cases like one in the OP.

[JRB]

I'm not sure we're reading the same documents; I'm honestly not sure where you're getting some of this.

Nothing about the affidavit or press announcement "blames" gun shows. Gun shows were only mentioned tangentially and simply as a matter of fact as the place where one of the subjects was purchasing guns. In addition, the word "loophole", or anything portraying gunshows as a loophole, is not used anywhere in either the affadavit or press announcement.

And, as for this in particular:



I'm not sure what you mean, it is being prosecuted. To be accurate, 4 individuals are being prosecuted as part of this thus far.

Apologies, and a fair point to be confused. I'm speaking generally about how these cases are presented, with an excessive and inaccurate focus on the 'gun show' itself instead of the criminal actors involved. Much as the difference in narrative between "hi cap" magazines and "standard capacity" magazines, we need to be better culturally about how we talk about this stuff.
Even the thread title here was focusing far too much on the 'gun show' and not the total situation at hand. I'm largely reacting to that, honestly.

I'm delighted this asshole is getting prosecuted, but far too many go without prosecution. I totally see HCM's point about finite resources available to prosecute, and that's reality.
But I take issue with anyone who'd use that as an excuse to support laws that cut deeply into Constitutional rights, such as the banning of private sales.
Typical outcomes from an underfunded and deeply flawed legal system should create focus on solving those problems in the legal system itself, it shouldn't be used to empower lawmakers to write fundamentally unjust laws.
Coming back around to realistic possible outcomes, though, I know that's all just rambling from the chains of a gulag.