Cheekweld Pistols

[HeavyDuty]

Splitting off from the technique thread: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?49878-Demonstrated-Concepts-Cheek-Weld

When I built this a few years ago, it was an exercise in making a small 9mm AR pistol to be used with a single point under tension. I found it works much better with cheekweld and NTCH, my usual AR hold. It’s a fun little gun that rode in a small bag next to the spare tire during the festivities a few years back.

78823

[GearFondler]

When I built this a few years ago, it was an exercise in making a small 9mm AR pistol to be used with a single point under tension. I found it works much better with cheekweld and NTCH, my usual AR hold. It’s a fun little gun that rode in a small bag next to the spare tire during the festivities a few years back.

78823That looks like a fantastic Cheek Weld option... What are the basic details of that build?

[HeavyDuty]

That looks like a fantastic Cheek Weld option... What are the basic details of that build?

Thanks! From memory:

5.5” Ballistic Advantage barrel
Quarter Circle 10 UZI mag lower and BCG - has LRBHO
Vltor upper
Unknown (cheap) 4.25” rail - I’d like to replace it some day
MVB MPK RE
Troy HK style front and standard rear BUIS
Various BAD bits and bobs

[GearFondler]

Thanks! From memory:

5.5” Ballistic Advantage barrel
Quarter Circle 10 UZI mag lower and BCG - has LRBHO
Vltor upper
Unknown (cheap) 4.25” rail - I’d like to replace it some day
MVB MPK RE
Troy HK style front and standard rear BUIS
Various BAD bits and bobsNice!

From my periodic scattered internet research it seems like the AR 9mm platforms are a cool idea that works better on paper than real life.
But it seems the UZI/Colt mag versions run best because the feed angle works better with the AR than Glock mags seem to.
The other issue is usually hollow points... Those cause a lot of feeding issues as well and an AR 9mm is worthless to me if it will only run hardball.
Also, how's the recoil impulse? I had a CZ Scorpion for a while and while the recoil was anything but punishing it still seemed silly to be shooting a 9mm that recoiled harder than a 5.56.

[HeavyDuty]

Nice!

From my periodic scattered internet research it seems like the AR 9mm platforms are a cool idea that works better on paper than real life.
But it seems the UZI/Colt mag versions run best because the feed angle works better with the AR than Glock mags seem to.
The other issue is usually hollow points... Those cause a lot of feeding issues as well and an AR 9mm is worthless to me if it will only run hardball.
Also, how's the recoil impulse? I had a CZ Scorpion for a while and while the recoil was anything but punishing it still seemed silly to be shooting a 9mm that recoiled harder than a 5.56.

I’ve had no issues with the HPs I’ve tried - mostly GD 124s. And the recoil is similar to that of my Scorpion. I thought I’d need a foam cheek pad, but it hasn’t been an issue with the 100 or so round range trips I’ve done.

[RevolverRob]

Nice!

From my periodic scattered internet research it seems like the AR 9mm platforms are a cool idea that works better on paper than real life.
But it seems the UZI/Colt mag versions run best because the feed angle works better with the AR than Glock mags seem to.
The other issue is usually hollow points... Those cause a lot of feeding issues as well and an AR 9mm is worthless to me if it will only run hardball.
Also, how's the recoil impulse? I had a CZ Scorpion for a while and while the recoil was anything but punishing it still seemed silly to be shooting a 9mm that recoiled harder than a 5.56.

I've done up 3 different 9mm ARs. The Colt and UZI mag versions work best, because they are a true double-feed magazine that presents the round in a much better angle. I've not had any problems with Gold Dot, HST, or various other HPs in my current 9mm gun.

Recoil impulse is always higher with the 9mm gun than the 5.56 gun, because the 9mm is a straight blowback design, JPs captured buffer helps.

They are fun guns. My biggest complaint about them is the weight of a loaded mag. A steel Colt or Uzi mag with 30-rounds of 9mm in it, weighs nearly half a pound more than a loaded 30-round PMag.

[GearFondler]

I've done up 3 different 9mm ARs. The Colt and UZI mag versions work best, because they are a true double-feed magazine that presents the round in a much better angle. I've not had any problems with Gold Dot, HST, or various other HPs in my current 9mm gun.

Recoil impulse is always higher with the 9mm gun than the 5.56 gun, because the 9mm is a straight blowback design, JPs captured buffer helps.

They are fun guns. My biggest complaint about them is the weight of a loaded mag. A steel Colt or Uzi mag with 30-rounds of 9mm in it, weighs nearly half a pound more than a loaded 30-round PMag.Good stuff but it's why I always circle back around to the idea that I could have the same size platform with better performance and efficiency by going with 300BO... Except for the price of feeding it.

[RevolverRob]

Good stuff but it's why I always circle back around to the idea that I could have the same size platform with better performance and efficiency by going with 300BO... Except for the price of feeding it.

That's why I have a 300BO sitting by the bed at night and my 9mm AR sits in the back of the safe most of the time.

I've thought about making it into an SBR to serve as a cheaper to shoot understudy for the .300, but I reload .300BO and I don't reload 9mm.

[Vandal320]

Following

[Clusterfrack]

Short buffer assembly installed on the 7.5” 300BLK. Total length 21.5” w/o QD swivel. Now I need to find time to test function.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211101/64e8c1dd304ad52770605fc0927d8b28.jpg

[OlongJohnson]

...I reload .300BO and I don't reload 9mm.

This makes .300 BLK reasonably affordable if you reload:

https://tombstonetactical.com/product/speer-bullets-4725-tnt-30-cal-.308-125-gr-jacketed-hollow-point-jhp-500-per-box

[SouthNarc]

Short buffer assembly installed on the 7.5” 300BLK. Total length 21.5” w/o QD swivel. Now I need to find time to test function.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211101/64e8c1dd304ad52770605fc0927d8b28.jpg


I really like that set-up especially if braces get legislated away.

[MandoWookie]

Short buffer assembly installed on the 7.5” 300BLK. Total length 21.5” w/o QD swivel. Now I need to find time to test function.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211101/64e8c1dd304ad52770605fc0927d8b28.jpg

What is that short buffer assembly?

[Clusterfrack]

What is that short buffer assembly?

Strike Industries 5" tube, flat wire spring, and short buffer. I copied it from RustyCrusty's build.

https://www.strikeindustries.com/si-ar-spre-slick.html

[MandoWookie]

Strike Industries 5" tube, flat wire spring, and short buffer. I copied it from RustyCrusty's build.

https://www.strikeindustries.com/si-ar-spre-slick.html

I've generally avoided Strike stuff, as most seems to be form over function. What's your read on quality and functionality so far? Or too early to tell?

[Clusterfrack]

I've generally avoided Strike stuff, as most seems to be form over function. What's your read on quality and functionality so far? Or too early to tell?

Good quality. Clever design of indexing off the buffer retaining pin. And I like flat wire springs.

I hoping to test fire tomorrow. I’m highly suspicious of AR buffer and gas system mods that require tuning for specific loads to work. If the short buffer works with full power supersonic, and still locks back on empty with subs, that will be a good sign. I do not plan on using a suppressor with this upper.

[MandoWookie]

Good quality. Clever design of indexing off the buffer retaining pin. And I like flat wire springs.

I hoping to test fire tomorrow. I’m highly suspicious of AR buffer and gas system mods that require tuning for specific loads to work. If the short buffer works with full power supersonic, and still locks back on empty with subs, that will be a good sign. I do not plan on using a suppressor with this upper.

My use would be standard 5.56, unsuppressed(currently). Good to hear on observed quality.

[Clusterfrack]

At the range now testing the 300BLK cheek pistol with Strike short buffer tube assembly.

Healthy ejection to 4:30-5:00 with full power supers. Locks back on empty with PMag 30 and Lancer 20. Works with subs too but only locks Lancer 20 on empty with those, which is no surprise. There were no feed issues, even with completely full mags.

This is actually better function than I had with a standard length buffer system. I had to use a C buffer to get it to lock back with unsuppressed subs.

I shot decent groups, but need practice with the cheekweld technique. I kept relaxing my strong side arm and got some charging handle to nose. At this point, I’m way more capable with a stocked SBR. No comparison. But, I’m up for a challenge so I’ll keep practicing and see how I like it.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211104/94808f2fd1fee21f495abbfd48813b1e.jpg

[Totem Polar]

Clusterfrack has me thinking bad thoughts about my DD PDW .300Blk. I mean, I guess they’re not that bad, considering the 71 dollar cost of entry…

[zaitcev]

I made a dedicated attachment to my Ruger PC Charger. It's pretty nice, although of course it takes some getting used to. I tried a tube before, didn't like it. This attachment is narrower than a tube.

I'm selling it now on my website for those who want to try, although I don't expect it's going to make me a millionaire. All credit goes to Rhett anyway. I think he said before that manufacturers ought to make equipment to work with his concept. And there it is. Well, a dedicated gun would be better, but this is what I can do.

Looking for a vertical AR grip now. Currently it's still the Ruger factory grip, which feels not ideal. At least it's not as slanted as an M16A2 grip.

79405

Update: Clusterfrack's tube allows to place face close to the gun, but it only works on AR. On the Ruger, one must attach to the Picatinny rail and I was concerned about hitting myself with the latch. The latch is usually there for folding stocks.

[awp_101]

I do not plan on using a suppressor with this upper.
How do you find the blast and concussion vs a short 5.56? The 10.5” 7.62x39 I briefly had was miserable on a covered line.

[Clusterfrack]

How do you find the blast and concussion vs a short 5.56? The 10.5” 7.62x39 I briefly had was miserable on a covered line.

Oh yeah. AK SBRs are truly awful with blast and concussion. While less blasty, 10.5" 5.56 are no joke either, and ~7.5" 5.56 are worse. This is a main reason I went with 300BLK. Decent short-barrel ballistics is the other reason.

Full power 110 and 125gr loads are loud, but there's not a huge fireball. My Covert Comp seems to help keep the blast away from the shooter as well. Better than 5.56.

Unsuppressed subsonic 220gr are surprisingly not loud. If I had to shoot unsuppressed in a closed space without ear pro, that's obviously the best choice.

[awp_101]

Thanks, that gives me something to think about when the next project comes around.

[psalms144.1]

I can't repeat often enough how horrible it is to be anywhere near anyone shooting any 5.56mm in short barrel length. Several times I've cut shooting sessions short when someone shows up on an indoor range with a 7.5" 5.56. Even using active hearing protection, the couple of times I've been around Mk18s and Mk16 CQBs shooting inside vehicles and buildings, it's just plain no fun at all.

My buddy has a 11.5" SBR build that we shoot a bit, but he always runs it with a suppressor. That's the only way I'm interested in being on the range with him even outdoors...

I don't have much experience with 300s in short barrel, but for a "cheek gun" with an extra short barrel, I'm loving 9mm.

[zaitcev]

Even using active hearing protection, the couple of times I've been around Mk18s and Mk16 CQBs shooting inside vehicles and buildings, it's just plain no fun at all.

I always double up these days. Electronic ear protection is not enough, although I haven't tried the custom-molded, in-ear units.

Can't wait for people with 16" in .277 Fury start showing up.

[JCN]

Oh yeah. AK SBRs are truly awful with blast and concussion. While less blasty, 10.5" 5.56 are no joke either, and ~7.5" 5.56 are worse. This is a main reason I went with 300BLK. Decent short-barrel ballistics is the other reason.

Full power 110 and 125gr loads are loud, but there's not a huge fireball. My Covert Comp seems to help keep the blast away from the shooter as well. Better than 5.56.

Unsuppressed subsonic 220gr are surprisingly not loud. If I had to shoot unsuppressed in a closed space without ear pro, that's obviously the best choice.

When I was testing subsonic 300blk, I only found one round that reliably expanded.

https://www.glocktalk.com/threads/jcn%E2%80%99s-300-blk-failures.1762792/

https://www.glocktalk.com/threads/i-thought-subsonic-300-blk-was-like-a-45acp-i-was-wrong.1856972/#post-29557518

79440

Any reason why you wouldn’t suppress it?

[Wondering Beard]

Any reason why you wouldn’t suppress it?

Overall length.

The goal of this build, and why I'm interested in it, is to have a "long gun" that can be operated in the same space a handgun would be. If you add a suppressor, you are making this a lot harder.

I think the videos showing the concept are posted in another cheekweld pistol thread.

[Clusterfrack]

When I was testing subsonic 300blk, I only found one round that reliably expanded.
Any reason why you wouldn’t suppress it?


Overall length.
The goal of this build, and why I'm interested in it, is to have a "long gun" that can be operated in the same space a handgun would be. If you add a suppressor, you are making this a lot harder.


Exactly. If it's going to be suppressed, I would vastly prefer my 11.5" 5.56 SBR with a real stock. But that is a much larger weapon.

[GJM]

More so than with a number of techniques, the cheek weld method seems intertwined with the physical characteristics of the firearm, since your body interacts with the firearm differently than with more conventional techniques.

[JCN]

Overall length.

The goal of this build, and why I'm interested in it, is to have a "long gun" that can be operated in the same space a handgun would be. If you add a suppressor, you are making this a lot harder.

I think the videos showing the concept are posted in another cheekweld pistol thread.


Exactly. If it's going to be suppressed, I would vastly prefer my 11.5" 5.56 SBR with a real stock. But that is a much larger weapon.

Maybe. Or maybe not.

For me the 300 Blk wound up schizophrenic.

If I had a little more room, I’d want a 16” barrel AR or a suppressed 16” bullpup.

If I had less room, I’d want a pistol I could shoot one handed from retention.

So what’s the purpose of this and how would you know you needed that purpose ahead of time.

I guess the purpose could be that you could run supersonic if you needed to.

But out of a G22 you can get velocities like a reduced barrel AR.

79450

And you could get one of those cheesy Flux braces or flip out braces for Glocks.

Also think outside the box. If you’re mainly shooting subs… you only need a handgun sized suppressor.

Some of those are small….

79451

[Clusterfrack]

Maybe. Or maybe not.

For me the 300 Blk wound up schizophrenic.


Agree about subs being suboptimal. My post about shooting in a confined space was misleading. Full-power supers in 300BLK (Barnes 110 TTSX) are what I keep my mags loaded with.

EDIT: I just noticed the .357 Sig box in your picture. That caliber is fucking loud.

[JCN]

Agree about subs being suboptimal. My post about shooting in a confined space was misleading. Full-power supers in 300BLK (Barnes 110 TTSX) are what I keep my mags loaded with.

EDIT: I just noticed the .357 Sig box in your picture. That caliber fucking loud.

WHAT DID YOU SAY? I COULDN’T HEAR YOU?!!!! :D

Okay, that makes more sense when you describe it as a rifle being a rifle-lite.

With rifle ballistics (and noise) out of a small rifle platform, I can get behind that.

The 300 subsonic as a large pistol never found a niche for me.

You’re motivating me to dust off mine.

For the niche of small rifle- rifle I wound up settling on the RDB-S which is a 16” 223 because I liked the ammunition choices available for self defense. With the stock collapsed it’s pretty dang short.

79452

[JCN]

Full-power supers in 300BLK (Barnes 110 TTSX) are what I keep my mags loaded with.

So this is part of the issue I have with 300 blk. Ammo.

Barnes 110 out of an 8.3” barrel

https://discussions.texasbowhunter.com/forums/showthread.php?t=616056


After hearing so many positive reviews about Barnes' 300 Blackout VOR-TX 110gr black tip ammo, I bought a couple of boxes for our 8.3" SBR. It's accurate and I've been looking forward to trying it out on some pigs. Well, tonight there were a few lurking around one of the feeders at my house and I picked out a 75 pounder for some sausage. 40yd shot and I put it right behind the shoulder to save all the meat. Well, it left out of there leaking plenty of blood but ran 125 yards before flopping. ZERO expansion of the bullet - looked like I shot her with a FMJ. Not at all what I was expecting, given all the reviews.

Do I need to put it through a shoulder to get it to expand? Was this a fluke? I really want this round to work but I'm pretty disappointed so far.

Sure could use some advice! I sure love this little rifle but I need to find something with better terminal performance - these are SUPERS, not subs!

I’ve tested super and sub 300 blk in gel out of 16” and 7.5” barrels and never really got comfortable with the consistency of the ammo.

I had ammo even veer off and yaw and exit horizontally out of a gel block (and into my car fender punching a hole).

Clusterfrack what velocities do you see out of your gun with that ammo?

I’m thinking that the Underwood 100gr 10mm would actually perform very similarly from a numbers standpoint to the Barnes out of a short 300 blk. In which case a 10mm Kriss Vector might theoretically be a better choice (it’s super soft shooting with the recoil system).

If you want me to test anything, I have all of that stuff and plenty of SD ammo plus gel and LabRadar.

[JCN]

Sorry just read that the Barnes TTSX isn’t the same as the black tip. I’m not familiar with that ammo.

[Clusterfrack]

Sorry, it's Tac-TX. Black tip. If I recall, it's about 2000 fps.

Yikes, about your car getting shot.

There are so many tradeoffs...


So this is part of the issue I have with 300 blk. Ammo.

Barnes 110 out of an 8.3” barrel

https://discussions.texasbowhunter.com/forums/showthread.php?t=616056



I’ve tested super and sub 300 blk in gel out of 16” and 7.5” barrels and never really got comfortable with the consistency of the ammo.

I had ammo even veer off and yaw and exit horizontally out of a gel block (and into my car fender punching a hole).

Clusterfrack what velocities do you see out of your gun with that ammo?

I’m thinking that the Underwood 100gr 10mm would actually perform very similarly from a numbers standpoint to the Barnes out of a short 300 blk. In which case a 10mm Kriss Vector might theoretically be a better choice (it’s super soft shooting with the recoil system).

If you want me to test anything, I have all of that stuff and plenty of SD ammo plus gel and LabRadar.

[SouthNarc]

Everybody I know at JSOC that has shot someone with a Barnes 110 TTSX says they stay shot.

[underhook]

Everybody I know at JSOC that has shot someone with a Barnes 110 TTSX says they stay shot.

No end of podcasts out there with the JSOC alumni praising black hills and Barnes. The was Mike Ritland on Clint Emerson's podcast. He described shooting people in Iraq with green tip that ran half a football field before dropping. Both praised 300BLK and Black Hills.

[Clusterfrack]

Everybody I know at JSOC that has shot someone with a Barnes 110 TTSX says they stay shot.

Thanks for that info. This is... comforting.

[SouthNarc]

MAC did a piece this year on the mil round which you can tell by the brown tip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-vwSj71Ikk

[JCN]

MAC did a piece this year on the mil round which you can tell by the brown tip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-vwSj71Ikk


Everybody I know at JSOC that has shot someone with a Barnes 110 TTSX says they stay shot.

Thanks for that!

[RevolverRob]

110-grain Barnes has no problem flying straight from a 5.5" Rattler.

[GJM]

For our lifestyle, the Rattler in .300 BLK with Barnes 110 is the most useful "larger than a handgun, smaller than a carbine" thing we have.

.300 BLK out of a shorter barrel is about as loud as 5.56 from a 16 inch barrel. It fits in a small Arcteryx messenger bag. It gives you a reasonable chance of penetrating the skull of a grizzly.

79456

[JCN]

I figured Clusterfrack would have picked good choices!

I bought a couple boxes of the Barnes.

LuckyGunner has some in stock for not crazy prices.

[Caballoflaco]

JCN the first deer I ever shot when I was 11 was with a .30-30 using whatever soft point my dad had picked up from Walmart. It too ran (hauled ass at a full sprint to be more accurate) a little over 100 yards and I thought maybe I missed or made a bad shot. When we cut it open it was missing a quarter of the lung on the entrance side and the exit side lung was mostly just soup filling the chest cavity.

Since then I’ve shot quite a few more deer with both rifles and bows. A scared animal can move quite a bit of distance, even if it was double lunged, before it dies. I don’t consider 125 yard blood trail to be excessively long in the situation you posted, especially since he said it was bleeding well.

[JCN]

Since then I’ve shot quite a few more deer with both rifles and bows. A scared animal can move quite a bit of distance, even if it was double lunged, before it dies. I don’t consider 125 yard blood trail to be excessively long in the situation you posted, especially since he said it was bleeding well.

I believe you! I was cuing off his impression of the wound cavity as it seemed like he had quite a bit of comparative background. I think it’s hard because even if the Barnes didn’t expand and acted like a FMJ…

People shot with one would still likely wind up dead given enough bleeding time without access to medical care.

It’s a big, honking scary bullet.

It’s motivating me to test my 10mm TNW Aero Pistol versus a 300 blk AR versus a Kriss Vector 10mm this weekend just to be stupid.

[Clusterfrack]

For reloaders, Grafs has 110 TTSX bullets in stock. Just picked up 100.

[awp_101]

Dammit P-F, this verkakte thread is dragging me back into the world of the .300...

[Clusterfrack]

Dammit P-F, this verkakte thread is dragging me back into the world of the .300...

I know, right? I hate new calibers... Total hassle. Hope this is worth it.

[RevolverRob]

For those who haven't - go read the .300 Blackout Enabling Thread and the PDW thread. Somewhere in one of those threads, I can't remember right now, is a summary from Barnes Engineer about the velocity needed for full expansion and penetration based on the Black and Blue tips.

[Clusterfrack]

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?42065-300-AAC-Blackout-Enabling-Thread-(Mags-ammo-optics-barrels-etc-)&p=1075994#post1075994

[JCN]

For those who haven't - go read the .300 Blackout Enabling Thread and the PDW thread. Somewhere in one of those threads, I can't remember right now, is a summary from Barnes Engineer about the velocity needed for full expansion and penetration based on the Black and Blue tips.


https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?42065-300-AAC-Blackout-Enabling-Thread-(Mags-ammo-optics-barrels-etc-)&p=1075994#post1075994

1350 for black tip is excellent.

[Wondering Beard]

Maybe. Or maybe not.

For me the 300 Blk wound up schizophrenic.

If I had a little more room, I’d want a 16” barrel AR or a suppressed 16” bullpup.

If I had less room, I’d want a pistol I could shoot one handed from retention.

So what’s the purpose of this and how would you know you needed that purpose ahead of time.

I guess the purpose could be that you could run supersonic if you needed to.

But out of a G22 you can get velocities like a reduced barrel AR.

79450

And you could get one of those cheesy Flux braces or flip out braces for Glocks.

Also think outside the box. If you’re mainly shooting subs… you only need a handgun sized suppressor.

Some of those are small….

79451


It's all going to depend on your circumstances and the problems you are trying to solve.

For example, in my regular EDC, going about my life, a regular pistol makes the most sense as a any cheekweld pistol is going to be way too big to conceal properly and is likely to be quite a bit heavier than necessary.

In a home defense case, a rifle caliber in a near pistol package can make a lot of sense conceptually. However, at least in my near urban circumstances, the 300 BLK is likely too penetrative and, if I want something really compact the 5.56 is way too loud. I could suppress the 5.56 but I lose the maneuverability of the weapon, so a pistol, for maneuvering, and a shotgun as "heavy artillery", when ensconced in one room, makes more sense for my home though a cheekweld pistol in a pistol caliber offers a lot. But if one's home is somewhere else and set up differently, the answers will vary.

In a car, the answer can change again. If I were to travel and need to think about dealing with riot like situations and/or other vehicles being a danger to me, a cheekweld pistol in 300 BLK starts making more sense. The small size means a weapon that can be operated much more easily from inside and the caliber has the capability to punch through things that a pistol caliber likely won't. A SIG rattler is a good answer to the problem except for the question of the future legality of a brace, thus the cheekweld, pistol that Clusterfrack is working with (without a suppressor) can solve a lot of problems with fewer drawbacks than others.

The above doesn't mean that I am certain of the solutions to the problems I posed, much less that I put forward the right problems to think about, but it is only meant to illustrate the variability of the situations one may have to deal with and thus the variety of possible solutions.

[JCN]

The above doesn't mean that I am certain of the solutions to the problems I posed, much less that I put forward the right problems to think about, but it is only meant to illustrate the variability of the situations one may have to deal with and thus the variety of possible solutions.

That’s exactly what I say to my wife to justify the different firearms I have gathering dust in my safe. :D

[JCN]

This is what I’m going to test today.

79498

Left to right:
10mm Kriss Vector 5.5” barrel
10mm TNW Aero Rifle ~9” barrel
300blk AR ~9” barrel
223 RDB-S 16” barrel

When I was testing before, I never felt comfortable with the supersonic 300 blackout ammo choices, but I never got that far with it.

Form factor I wound up picking the 223 full length bullpup as kind of a CQB rifle-lite preferring the known track record of 223 Gold Dots out of a 16” barrel.

But going to revisit today. I kind of think that if I’m going to meaningfully go smaller I should go something like the Vector. Interested in comparative velocities with 110-115gr ammo in the 10mm/300blk.

[Rex G]

It's all going to depend on your circumstances and the problems you are trying to solve.

For example, in my regular EDC, going about my life, a regular pistol makes the most sense as a any cheekweld pistol is going to be way too big to conceal properly and is likely to be quite a bit heavier than necessary.

In a home defense case, a rifle caliber in a near pistol package can make a lot of sense conceptually. However, at least in my near urban circumstances, the 300 BLK is likely too penetrative and, if I want something really compact the 5.56 is way too loud. I could suppress the 5.56 but I lose the maneuverability of the weapon, so a pistol, for maneuvering, and a shotgun as "heavy artillery", when ensconced in one room, makes more sense for my home though a cheekweld pistol in a pistol caliber offers a lot. But if one's home is somewhere else and set up differently, the answers will vary.

In a car, the answer can change again. If I were to travel and need to think about dealing with riot like situations and/or other vehicles being a danger to me, a cheekweld pistol in 300 BLK starts making more sense. The small size means a weapon that can be operated much more easily from inside and the caliber has the capability to punch through things that a pistol caliber likely won't. A SIG rattler is a good answer to the problem except for the question of the future legality of a brace, thus the cheekweld, pistol that Clusterfrack is working with (without a suppressor) can solve a lot of problems with fewer drawbacks than others.

The above doesn't mean that I am certain of the solutions to the problems I posed, much less that I put forward the right problems to think about, but it is only meant to illustrate the variability of the situations one may have to deal with and thus the variety of possible solutions.

I like what you and Clusterfrack are thinking.

Personally, a weapon with a short-as-practicable RE, for the check-weld, is making the most sense, as many/most of the “true” cheek pistol candidates are not a best weapon for a left-eye-dominant shooter, no matter how ambidextrous I may be, because I want to be able to shoot with both eyes open, during a defensive emergency.

I do have a Daniel Defense DDM4 V7P, .300 BLK. I will neither confirm nor deny that the slip-on, slip-off brace was ever installed on the RE. The LAW folder makes it relatively short, when stowed-/packed-away, but the ~10.5” barrel is not exactly the shortest, and I am wondering if the quite bulky LAW folder is a better idea than simply using one of the shorter RE options, one of which Clusterfrack is using on his short AR/M4. I have been working with this DDM4 V7P, “dry,” in an effort to overcome the anxiety about a weapon that is on-safe, when the safety/selector lever is aligned with the target, and ready to fire when the “Dingus is Down.” (I am not a novice with the AR15 system, but, have not kept them loaded-and-ready, for emergency defensive purposes, since a short stint as one of my employer’s “carbine units,” that started in 2002, in response to the 9-11-2001 events.)

[HeavyDuty]

Dammit P-F, this verkakte thread is dragging me back into the world of the .300...

It may drag me there for the first time. In fact, I may swing by the Academy today to check out a Rattler for the 1,276th time. I absolutely hate the idea of dealing with a new cartridge in the house, but it’s really hard to argue with the superiority of .300 over 5.56 out of very short barrels.

[Wondering Beard]

Personally, a weapon with a short-as-practicable RE, for the check-weld, is making the most sense, as many/most of the “true” cheek pistol candidates are not a best weapon for a left-eye-dominant shooter, no matter how ambidextrous I may be, because I want to be able to shoot with both eyes open, during a defensive emergency.


I hadn't thought about that and as a cross dominant shooter it matters to me.

[Clusterfrack]

Personally, a weapon with a short-as-practicable RE, for the check-weld, is making the most sense, as many/most of the “true” cheek pistol candidates are not a best weapon for a left-eye-dominant shooter, no matter how ambidextrous I may be, because I want to be able to shoot with both eyes open, during a defensive emergency.

I just picked up a Brass Goat (https://brassgoat.com/products/brass-goat) (also stolen from Rhett's build) to try as a brass deflector. If that works, it should make left-handed shooting possible without taking BTF, be helpful for practice inside a vehicle and in keeping track of those valuable 300 BLK cases.

[Clusterfrack]

Here's a summary from my brief practice session:

The good: Cheekweld actually works. I was able to shoot an 89 on a B8 at 50yds offhand, with ~1s splits. This was with a truly crappy mil spec trigger, and I'm upgrading that to a Larue MBT2s. It offers better than pistol performance with carbine ballistics in a very compact package that is legal to take across state lines. With more practice, I think I'll feel confident enough to use it as my truck/camp gun for long-range rifle trips, and as a home-defense option. I could see using it for grizzly defense as well.

The not-so-good: The technique seems to require a lot of strong arm tension--exactly the opposite of what my carbine and pistol technique has evolved toward. It's awkward and limiting for me in comparison to a conventionally stocked carbine. I will not be removing the stocks from my carbines :D.

I'm going to complete my cheek-pistol build and keep practicing because I like the concept for niche use.

[HeavyDuty]

Here's a summary from my brief practice session:

The good: Cheekweld actually works. I was able to shoot an 89 on a B8 at 50yds offhand, with ~1s splits. This was with a truly crappy mil spec trigger, and I'm upgrading that to a Larue MBT2s. It offers better than pistol performance with carbine ballistics in a very compact package that is legal to take across state lines. With more practice, I think I'll feel confident enough to use it as my truck/camp gun for long-range rifle trips, and as a home-defense option. I could see using it for grizzly defense as well.

The not-so-good: The technique seems to require a lot of strong arm tension--exactly the opposite of what my carbine and pistol technique has evolved toward. It's awkward and limiting for me in comparison to a conventionally stocked carbine. I will not be removing the stocks from my carbines :D.

I'm going to complete my cheek-pistol build and keep practicing because I like the concept for niche use.

I think the way I have traditionally shot cheekweld only is different. I tension up but not to that extent, and take my usual NTCH position. I need to try this method to see how it works for me.

[pastaslinger]

Maybe those AR pistol buffer tubes covered in foam weren't such a bad idea after all... I would totally try one again for a really compact pistol cal AR build

[Doc_Glock]

Here's a summary from my brief practice session:

The good: Cheekweld actually works. I was able to shoot an 89 on a B8 at 50yds offhand, with ~1s splits. This was with a truly crappy mil spec trigger, and I'm upgrading that to a Larue MBT2s. It offers better than pistol performance with carbine ballistics in a very compact package that is legal to take across state lines. With more practice, I think I'll feel confident enough to use it as my truck/camp gun for long-range rifle trips, and as a home-defense option. I could see using it for grizzly defense as well.

The not-so-good: The technique seems to require a lot of strong arm tension--exactly the opposite of what my carbine and pistol technique has evolved toward. It's awkward and limiting for me in comparison to a conventionally stocked carbine. I will not be removing the stocks from my carbines :D.

I'm going to complete my cheek-pistol build and keep practicing because I like the concept for niche use.

Good information!

I messed around enough in the dry attempting cheekweld that I realized I don't have the dedication to learn how to do it with any alacrity.

I will just be sticking with standard stocks since I already practice seldom enough with a long arm and don't need another confounding technique.

[Clusterfrack]

Project complete for now. Testing required.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211112/6cd13937fc5788ddd94c10f51333adca.jpg

[JCN]

GJM has excellent taste for functional things.

This thread got me shopping…

79834

Canebrake rattler WITH a Rugged Razor suppressor on the right.

Compared to the 8” AR “pistol” without a suppressor.

[coldcase1984]

Got a couple stripped lowers ordered and one will be similar to Clusterfrack's and in Blackout.

Then my primeval Boomer brain spat out a commercial product I saw c. 2017 that appears like a perfect Cheekweld Pistol: the FightLite SCR .300 BO with a Shockwave style grip.

Went to both Brownell's and FightLite's sites and all whole firearms and rcvr/bolts are out of stock. Shocking!

Wondering if any P-F'rs own or have experience with those firearms?

[JCN]

I really like the Rattler but it’s a little gassy to the face.

Going to get some black RTV to seal the charging handle.


https://youtu.be/c87-wdkCohk

[JCN]

80054

Much better. Great mod.

[JCN]

In case anyone is interested it was easy and only cost a few bucks for the silicone.

Black Permatex silicon gasket maker from auto parts store for a few bucks.
Car wax on the parts I didn’t want stuck.
Alcohol to clean the parts I did want stuck.
With the charging handle in place, I pulled a little traction to maximize the gap.

Used a trick from detailing and wrapping cars days and cut up an old plastic gift card to use as a trowel to lay a nice flat layer and scrape off excess. I waxed the card beforehand.

Q tip to wipe off most of what got on other surfaces.

Hair dryer.

Next morning use a sharp edge of the cut up card to release edges from the frame carefully.
Side cutters to trim off any dingleberries.

Done.

[underhook]

Trained with Bill Rapier from AMTAC shooting two weekends back.

His teaching a shot cycle with the AR of Safety, touchpoint, slack, and shot. Where touchpoint is the stock on your cheek. This is for really fast hits inside a room and based on the index you built through reps with the stock in your shoulder. He commented how that takes your first shot time from high ready from 1.4 seconds with a shoulder position to .5 with a cheek weld. His context was the position is fine for body shot. Not good for eyeball hostage shot.

So we have someone from a tier 1 unit explaining how that unit is shooting in a very limited context for a cheek weld.

Tagging SouthNarc for context.

[RustyCrusty]

Trained with Bill Rapier from AMTAC shooting two weekends back.

His teaching a shot cycle with the AR of Safety, touchpoint, slack, and shot. Where touchpoint is the stock on your cheek. This is for really fast hits inside a room and based on the index you built through reps with the stock in your shoulder. He commented how that takes your first shot time from high ready from 1.4 seconds with a shoulder position to .5 with a cheek world. His context was the position is fine for body shot. Not good for eyeball hostage shot.

So we have someone from a tier 1 unit explaining how that unit is shooting in a very limited context for a cheek weld.

Tagging SouthNarc for context.

Every first shot you take on any threat is going to be the most important, speed to first hit is going to be priority 1.

Training those ‘really fast hits inside a room’ or at room distance should be given the lions share of training attention for defenders that will be reacting to a threat instead of assaulting in a team. (This means us in our houses or cars as normal people or as unsupported solo LEOs)

This is even true in barricade home defense scenarios. The cheeked, averted muzzle ready position is far faster to first shot than shouldered low ready and also allows a more averted muzzle that requires no head movement while providing a very clear field of vision to ID threats.

[wmu12071]

Project complete for now. Testing required.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211112/6cd13937fc5788ddd94c10f51333adca.jpg

Just curious how you ended up with this concept. Anything you want to share?

[Clusterfrack]

Just curious how you ended up with this concept. Anything you want to share?

I was inspired by RustyCrusty Rhett's videos about the cheek weld pistol. See this thread:
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?49878-Demonstrated-Concepts-Cheek-Weld


I ended up with a 300BLK DI (direct impingement) PDW that is very short, and is clearly classified as a pistol because there is no brace. I haven't yet done the testing needed to really vet this for myself. A pile of ammo and mags is waiting in a box, and I hope to have the time to get back to this in a couple months.

But just based on dryfire, it's very handy, and indexes very consistently.

[p2000cool]

Short buffer assembly installed on the 7.5” 300BLK. Total length 21.5” w/o QD swivel. Now I need to find time to test function.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211101/64e8c1dd304ad52770605fc0927d8b28.jpg

Is that strike industries short pistol buffer tube? How well has it worked for you? Have you had any issues with it

[Clusterfrack]

Is that strike industries short pistol buffer tube? How well has it worked for you? Have you had any issues with it

Yes that’s the one. Good function and ejection with supers and subs. Have not tried suppressed yet.

[Kirk]

Project complete for now. Testing required.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211112/6cd13937fc5788ddd94c10f51333adca.jpg

Dude, this looks absolutely incredible. Very nice setup - please let us know your testing goes.

I'm thinking of setting up a Keltec CP33 similar to what Rhett uses. I'll have an almost limitless supply of ammo to test it out and mess around with the concept, so I'm really close to giving it a go. I'm a lefty, so I'll need to purchase his "Catch-22." I'll keep this thread updated if I do build one in the next few weeks.

[GJM]

Why no foam cover on the tube, to help protect your face?

[Totem Polar]

Why no foam cover on the tube, to help protect your face?

Have you seen his face? Just saying….




( :D )


No, seriously, I’m wondering the same thing.

[Clusterfrack]

Why no foam cover on the tube, to help protect your face?

I tried some on an earlier iteration and it got fouled by the charging handle.

But like Totem Polar said, I’ve got some facial hair. And get punched in the face on a regular basis anyway :D

[SouthNarc]

I got my cheek pistol build down to a hair over six pounds with optic, light, and a loaded 20 round magazine.

[wmu12071]

I'm no expert or SME on anything but I took the stock off my SBR a few range trips ago and tried shooting it as a cheek pistol. It went pretty well...

So tonight I am going pick up my new lower and the parts to build a lower with the short buffer tube.

One thing that stuck out to me was the wrist angle for shooting in the most compressed fashion (face on top rail) was too extreme. I have a more vertical grip with the new lower. If that doesn't work I also have a 45 deg mount for an RMR to try if that doesn't work as I found that worked better with a conventional charging handle.

[wmu12071]

I'm no expert or SME on anything but I took the stock off my SBR a few range trips ago and tried shooting it as a cheek pistol. It went pretty well...

So tonight I am going pick up my new lower and the parts to build a lower with the short buffer tube.

One thing that stuck out to me was the wrist angle for shooting in the most compressed fashion (face on top rail) was too extreme. I have a more vertical grip with the new lower. If that doesn't work I also have a 45 deg mount for an RMR to try if that doesn't work as I found that worked better with a conventional charging handle.

Put this together last night instead of getting good sleep like a smart adult would.

The gun is a boat anchor compared to others as the gun with no mag or suppressor is 6 lbs, 3oz. I am running a 11.5" BCM upper for now while I figure out how this works for me. I did do some dry movement to get into firing positions and put tension on the gun to simulate what is needed for recoil control. I REALLY like the 45 deg mount for compressing the gun. I do not get as compressed as RustyCrusty but I am running an aimpoint pro so I don't have as much rail to move up too. My charging handle when compressed sits right under my cheek bone.

86066

PS, feel free to pick on me about being a poor with my keymod, aimpoint pro etc. I get it.

[Clusterfrack]

Cheek pistol update. I finally found the time to test my 7.5” 300BLK in a short “practical” shooting course, and it passed with flying colors. I’m satisfied with the shootability, and was able to approximate my performance with a stocked SBR from CQB to 100 yds with supers and also suppressed subs. 100% reliable.

I especially liked using the sling in a push-pull grip.

The only issue was the Brass Goat shifting out of place and causing nasty double feeds. It is a no go (no goat) for serious use.


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220711/1111243cf1b4044bf97bc8e2089a5001.jpg


Palmetto "multi" pistol lower
Strike Industries short pistol buffer tube system
https://www.strikeindustries.com/si-ar-spre-slick.html
LaRue MBT2s 4.5# trigger
Geissele ambi safety
Reptilia CQG grip
https://reptiliacorp.com/product/cqg-grip-for-ar-15-sr-25/

Palmetto 7.5" 1:8 300 BLK upper
BCM BCG & CH
ALG 8" V0X Rail (KeyMod)
Arisaka peg
https://arisakadefense.com/finger-stop-keymod/
TLR8g light/green laser
Trijicon MRO on Geissele lower 1/3 mount
BRT Covert Comp 7.62
https://blackrivertactical.com/WP/BRT-Covert-Comp-7-62-p7674675

[Wondering Beard]

I especially liked using the sling in a push-pull grip.


Could you expand on this?

[Clusterfrack]

Could you expand on this?

With the 2 point sling to add stability, pushing forward with the support arm, while pulling/locking the firing side arm and keeping the tube indexed on the cheek was very solid and predictable.

The sling also made snapping the gun up to index easier.

[Wondering Beard]

With the 2 point sling to add stability, pushing forward with the support arm, while pulling/locking the firing side arm and keeping the tube indexed on the cheek was very solid and predictable.

The sling also made snapping the gun up to index easier.

Thank you.

How much do you tighten the sling to achieve that stability? I imagine that if the sling is very loose it's not as useful, outside of carry.

[Clusterfrack]

Thank you.

How much do you tighten the sling to achieve that stability? I imagine that if the sling is very loose it's not as useful, outside of carry.

About the same as I do for a stocked carbine, but yes you do have to play with it to figure out the adjustment. There's actually a bit more leeway with the cheek pistol than with a stock because the tube can be an inch or two forward or backward and still work fine as a stable index point.

[Nobody]

These bullets might get you going in the right direction

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBuEhaBrezI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4a3ogq3ph30

[breakingtime91]

Cheek pistol update. I finally found the time to test my 7.5” 300BLK in a short “practical” shooting course, and it passed with flying colors. I’m satisfied with the shootability, and was able to approximate my performance with a stocked SBR from CQB to 100 yds with supers and also suppressed subs. 100% reliable.

I especially liked using the sling in a push-pull grip.

The only issue was the Brass Goat shifting out of place and causing nasty double feeds. It is a no go (no goat) for serious use.


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220711/1111243cf1b4044bf97bc8e2089a5001.jpg


Palmetto "multi" pistol lower
Strike Industries short pistol buffer tube system
https://www.strikeindustries.com/si-ar-spre-slick.html
LaRue MBT2s 4.5# trigger
Geissele ambi safety
Reptilia CQG grip
https://reptiliacorp.com/product/cqg-grip-for-ar-15-sr-25/

Palmetto 7.5" 1:8 300 BLK upper
BCM BCG & CH
ALG 8" V0X Rail (KeyMod)
Arisaka peg
https://arisakadefense.com/finger-stop-keymod/
TLR8g light/green laser
Trijicon MRO on Geissele lower 1/3 mount
BRT Covert Comp 7.62
https://blackrivertactical.com/WP/BRT-Covert-Comp-7-62-p7674675

is the lower one third good enough? or do you think a 1.93 would be better?

[Clusterfrack]

is the lower one third good enough? or do you think a 1.93 would be better?

I’ve got a fairly small head, so I’ve resisted the taller mounts on stocked ARs. But on the cheek pistol, the optic is quite a bit higher. I could run a lower optic no problem.

[breakingtime91]

I’ve got a fairly small head, so I’ve resisted the taller mounts on stocked ARs. But on the cheek pistol, the optic is quite a bit higher. I could run a lower optic no problem.

Cool, I picked up a 10.3 aero upper for 270 during their 4th sale. Putting together a cheek pistol with a law folder for trips

[breakingtime91]

92560

92561

Have a pistol buffer tub I need to install still but the mag pull tool I have doesn't fit over it. Very handy. 10.3 556 upper. If it works as well as it does in dry fire I'll load up some 75 grain gold dots and use it as a travel pistol and inside the home

[breakingtime91]

This also got me thinking about how we used to do "short stocking" while I was in Afghanistan. Most poppy fields would have a dug out shelter in it, for the workers to sleep in. Many of the workers migrated to the farms during the working season and would sleep in these dug outs because they were cool at night and they could just go there straight after work. Taliban also would use these as ambush sites because they could just walk down the stairs to avoid incoming fire/40mm rounds. We would clear these every chance we could and since I am 5' 9" and around 170 I was the perfect candidate. I had a 14.5 M4 and would have to place the stock over my should to clear them. Imagine about 4-8 steps down and a very small bedroom. There were more than two handful of times I went down and ended up face to face (more like his face to my muzzle) to a military age male. This build brought up some old memories.

[03RN]

We did that with our muskets too. I just found a pic the other day of us doing a MEU workup and one of my guys had his m16a2 sideways on top of his shoulder during some MOUT training.

[breakingtime91]

Haven't shot mine yet. Really wishing I would of went with a free float/longer rail. But I'll probably make the a frame upper work for now.

[Clusterfrack]

Cheek pistol update. I finally found the time to test my 7.5” 300BLK in a short “practical” shooting course, and it passed with flying colors. I’m satisfied with the shootability, and was able to approximate my performance with a stocked SBR from CQB to 100 yds with supers and also suppressed subs. 100% reliable.

I especially liked using the sling in a push-pull grip.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220711/1111243cf1b4044bf97bc8e2089a5001.jpg


Palmetto "multi" pistol lower
Strike Industries short pistol buffer tube system
https://www.strikeindustries.com/si-ar-spre-slick.html
LaRue MBT2s 4.5# trigger
Geissele ambi safety
Reptilia CQG grip
https://reptiliacorp.com/product/cqg-grip-for-ar-15-sr-25/

Palmetto 7.5" 1:8 300 BLK upper
BCM BCG & CH
ALG 8" V0X Rail (KeyMod)
Arisaka peg
https://arisakadefense.com/finger-stop-keymod/
TLR8g light/green laser
Trijicon MRO on Geissele lower 1/3 mount
BRT Covert Comp 7.62
https://blackrivertactical.com/WP/BRT-Covert-Comp-7-62-p7674675

I shot the 300BLK cheek pistol at a 340yd 24x24 steel target today, and was surprised by how stable it is with a sling. I’m now using a PA SLX-1x optic, and had good success holding the bottom of the chevron at the top of the plate. In comparison to a stocked carbine, more muscle tension was required to hold on a small target. JCL shot it as well.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221216/9b61be4868043aa463fddfd046755345.jpg

[Bergeron]

Very curious to hear more about this with the SLX- that’s an interesting reticle & optic for the application. I’m very micro-prism curious.

[Clusterfrack]

Very curious to hear more about this with the SLX- that’s an interesting reticle & optic for the application. I’m very micro-prism curious.

I needed the MRO for another rifle and thought I'd give the PA SLX1x (https://www.primaryarms.com/primary-arms-slx-1x-microprism-with-red-illuminated-acss-cyclops-gen-2-reticle) a try. I like it quite a bit. Eye relief and eye box are generous, and the glass is excellent. I also like that it has an etched reticle. It's basically like a 1x mini ACog. As for the cheek pistol application, I think it works well. It has a big donut for close targets, and a very usable (see above) chevron with BDC capabilities for targets out to ~300yds.

98498

[JCL]

… JCL shot it as well.

Not quite as well, but I did shoot it. 340 yd. is a good long way outside of its wheelhouse, but the ergonomics to make aimed shots are definitely there, which came as a bit of a surprise. The isometric tension required for good stability is noticeable.

[PNWTO]

We did that with our muskets too. I just found a pic the other day of us doing a MEU workup and one of my guys had his m16a2 sideways on top of his shoulder during some MOUT training.

That was in the SOI manual for way too long: stock on shoulder, cheek in front of carry handle, and “pop” the corner… no pie-ing.

We’ve come a long way.

[SwampDweller]

With the incoming new brace rules, I think this concept will become more relevant. At least with an AR pistol you can still make use of the bare buffer tube for cheek weld or other contact point. On AK pistols, they're pretty much screwed as far as any practical way to get a useful mounting point/points back there. I still would like an 11.5" AR pistol at one point. I don't really want to go NFA so bare buffer tube it shall be.

[Totem Polar]

I needed the MRO for another rifle and thought I'd give the PA SLX1x (https://www.primaryarms.com/primary-arms-slx-1x-microprism-with-red-illuminated-acss-cyclops-gen-2-reticle) a try. I like it quite a bit. Eye relief and eye box are generous, and the glass is excellent. I also like that it has an etched reticle. It's basically like a 1x mini ACog. As for the cheek pistol application, I think it works well. It has a big donut for close targets, and a very usable (see above) chevron with BDC capabilities for targets out to ~300yds.

98498


$270, eh… You recommend this for the application? Asking for a friend with a 7” DDM4 PDW in .300BLK…

[Clusterfrack]

$270, eh… You recommend this for the application? Asking for a friend with a 7” DDM4 PDW in .300BLK…

There are a lot of other good options too in that price range. Any of the Holosun T1 clones would be great. I like the SLx because of the etched reticle.

[zaitcev]

All credit goes to Rhett anyway. I think he said before that manufacturers ought to make equipment to work with his concept.
Did anyone in this thread try Ruger LC Carbine by any chance? Or are we waiting for the inevitable Ruger LC Charger? How's the gas through ejection port when your face is in the cheeking position?

Some of the youtube reviewers (ok, just H.O.) said that the ergonomics were poor, especially the magazine release. Also, the grip is too slanted for easy cheeking and cannot be changed. Although, Rhett manages with a birdheard shotgun, which is even more slanted.

So, what do we think, in regards to cheek technique? The LC is cheaper than B&T, but it's not a throwaway money for me, so I'm gathering information.

[HeavyDuty]

The recent classification changes have me wanting to build a new post-change pistol lower that I can use with my 7.5” and 12.5” uppers, and probably an additional short .300 upper like Clusterfrack ‘s. Before I got on the brace train I ran Thordsen saddle covers on these two, but i think these would be problematic due to length.

I’d like a purpose built pistol lower using the short Strike Industries pistol RE system, PA had them in stock and one is on the way. I’ll see what lowers are available at retail around here, at the prices I’ve seen the cost of shipping and transfer makes ordering one impractical. (If only NoDakSpud were still around…)

[5pins]

I never really considered a cheekweld pistol until I printed this 9mm... whatever this is, lol. I didn't want to buy a brace to put on it so I went the cheekweld direction. I have to admit, the cheekweld system works better than I thought it would.


https://i.imgur.com/s3y3W0ul.jpg

[HeavyDuty]

Clusterfrack, my Strike Industries pistol RE with spring and buffer arrived. That little buffer is all that is needed?

[Clusterfrack]

Clusterfrack, my Strike Industries pistol RE with spring and buffer arrived. That little buffer is all that is needed?

Yep. Hopefully yours will be as reliable as mine.

[O4L]

I just purchased my first 8" upper in 300 BLK a few days ago. This thread is very inspirational.

It just so happens that I ordered a PA micro prism this evening. I had shot a couple of PCCs with them a while back and with the 12% off right now and some store credit, I just couldn't wait any longer to purchase one.

After reading this thread, I'm pretty excited to experiment with the set up on my new pistol.

[HeavyDuty]

Yep. Hopefully yours will be as reliable as mine.

I hope so, too! I’m putting it on a newly acquired lower that will be purpose built to use with my 12.5” and 7.5” 5.56 uppers.

To be honest I never should have braced the first two pistols I built that used these uppers, they had Thordsen cheekrests on them and I was able to shoot them very effectively. My feeling is that the Thordsen won’t past muster anymore due to length and using a carbine RE, so this is my way back to that concept.

[Clusterfrack]

I hope so, too! I’m putting it on a newly acquired lower that will be purpose built to use with my 12.5” and 7.5” 5.56 uppers.

To be honest I never should have braced the first two pistols I built that used these uppers, they had Thordsen cheekrests on them and I was able to shoot them very effectively. My feeling is that the Thordsen won’t past muster anymore due to length and using a carbine RE, so this is my way back to that concept.

I don't find a need for a cheeckrest, although the bare RE can get cold in the winter. I might wrap mine with something that doesn't snag the CH.

I'll be curious how the Strike short buffer system works with 5.56, and if there's a difference between 12.5 and 7.5". Will you run the 12.5" suppressed?

If I shot mine more, I'd probably buy an extra spring and buffer.

[SouthNarc]

I'll be curious how the Strike short buffer system works with 5.56, and if there's a difference between 12.5 and 7.5".



I have 3 uppers in 11.5", 10.5', and 7.5" and the short Strike buffer runs surprisingly well.

[Clusterfrack]

I have 3 uppers in 11.5", 10.5', and 7.5" and the short Strike buffer runs surprisingly well.

That is great to hear. Based on experience, I'm highly suspicious of non-standard buffer systems ([cough]...jp). This one seems to be a winner.

[HeavyDuty]

I don't find a need for a cheeckrest, although the bare RE can get cold in the winter. I might wrap mine with something that doesn't snag the CH.

I'll be curious how the Strike short buffer system works with 5.56, and if there's a difference between 12.5 and 7.5". Will you run the 12.5" suppressed?

If I shot mine more, I'd probably buy an extra spring and buffer.


I have 3 uppers in 11.5", 10.5', and 7.5" and the short Strike buffer runs surprisingly well.

That is really good to hear!

[HeavyDuty]

Clusterfrack, what about a piece of large diameter shrink wrap?

[awp_101]

I don't find a need for a cheeckrest, although the bare RE can get cold in the winter. I might wrap mine with something that doesn't snag the CH.



Clusterfrack, what about a piece of large diameter shrink wrap?
What about hockey tape?

[Pnut]

With the new ATF madness, I trying to find if it’s ok to have a gas tube/cheek rest device on a pistol that doesn’t require a gas tube?

[WobblyPossum]

The way I read it, if you have something like an AR that requires a receiver extension to function, you should be fine. I’d err on the side of caution and use a pistol specific receiver extension with no provisions for mounting a stock or brace. If you’ve got a gun that doesn’t require a receiver extension to function like an AK or an MCX, for example, adding something like a receiver extension to make cheeking it easier might be interpreted to be a violation of the NFA if it’s got surface area that could be shouldered. I’m not a lawyer.

[HeavyDuty]

The way I read it, if you have something like an AR that requires a receiver extension to function, you should be fine. I’d err on the side of caution and use a pistol specific receiver extension with no provisions for mounting a stock or brace. If you’ve got a gun that doesn’t require a receiver extension to function like an AK or an MCX, for example, adding something like a receiver extension to make cheeking it easier might be interpreted to be a violation of the NFA if it’s got surface area that could be shouldered. I’m not a lawyer.

That’s my non-lawyerly interpretation too. Cheekweld pistols are generally going to be traditional ARs.

[WobblyPossum]

That’s my non-lawyerly interpretation too. Cheekweld pistols are generally going to be traditional ARs.

I don’t know about that. Rhett did all sorts of cheek pistol videos with guns that had nothing sticking out of the back like the MP5 clones. It’s probably just a little easier with ARs.

[BillSWPA]

With the new ATF madness, I trying to find if it’s ok to have a gas tube/cheek rest device on a pistol that doesn’t require a gas tube?

The problem is that the final rule (at least as presented in the notice on the ATF website) makes the answer to this question as clear as mud. The only way to know one is in compliance is by ensuring that every single factor comes out in one's favor, and that the gun complies with 18 USC sec. 922(r) (assembling rifles or shotguns that cannot be imported using too many imported parts).

[4RNR]

The problem is that the final rule (at least as presented in the notice on the ATF website) makes the answer to this question as clear as mud. The only way to know one is in compliance is by ensuring that every single factor comes out in one's favor, and that the gun complies with 18 USC sec. 922(r) (assembling rifles or shotguns that cannot be imported using too many imported parts).922 is only for rifles. If your handgun came in without a brace it's a handgun and not subject to 922.

Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk

[BillSWPA]

922 is only for rifles. If your handgun came in without a brace it's a handgun and not subject to 922.

Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk

If something is added to a pistol that ATF determines is to permit shouldering of the gun, then they consider it to be a rifle. How that determination is made is as clear as mud in many cases.

[4RNR]

If something is added to a pistol that ATF determines is to permit shouldering of the gun, then they consider it to be a rifle. How that determination is made is as clear as mud in many cases.

Seems pretty clear from what I've seen. Anything not meant for the function is not kosher. Anything meant for function but extended beyond what it needs to be is not kosher. If the AR buffer tube need to be 6 inches but you install one with 7 inches that's not ok.

If you don't add anything to the rear that can be shouldered theres no rifle so no need for 922.

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[Pnut]

So to be on the safe side, if the pistol doesn’t require a buffer tube to operate, then remove it and find a cap to plug up the opening?

[BillSWPA]

Seems pretty clear from what I've seen. Anything not meant for the function is not kosher. Anything meant for function but extended beyond what it needs to be is not kosher. If the AR buffer tube need to be 6 inches but you install one with 7 inches that's not ok.

If you don't add anything to the rear that can be shouldered theres no rifle so no need for 922.

Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk

That is not what the notice says at all. The notice says that if it is not necessary for function, then it could potentially not be okay, and is one of multiple factors that will be considered. How those factors are applied, or how many factors must be found to be problematic is not specified. It is as clear as mud.

[BillSWPA]

So to be on the safe side, if the pistol doesn’t require a buffer tube to operate, then remove it and find a cap to plug up the opening?

Not having the unnecessary buffer tube would go a very long way to being safe. However, if the pistol was imported or assembled with imported parts, then that becomes a conversation that perhaps should occur in private with your attorney rather than on a public forum.

[4RNR]

That is not what the notice says at all. The notice says that if it is not necessary for function, then it could potentially not be okay, and is one of multiple factors that will be considered. How those factors are applied, or how many factors must be found to be problematic is not specified. It is as clear as mud.So basically it's vague enough to make almost anything illegal. Meaning we did this so as not to lock our selves into any specific parts or loopholes. In other words don't put anything on the back.

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[BillSWPA]

So basically it's vague enough to make almost anything illegal. Meaning we did this so as not to lock our selves into any specific parts or loopholes. In other words don't put anything on the back.

Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk

Yes.

[HeavyDuty]

I ordered an inexpensive 7” .300 upper from Palmetto for this project, and my FFL has a new Aero lower waiting for me.

[HeavyDuty]

Hopefully this thing runs OK, Clusterfrack’s and SouthNarc’s experiences give me hope. New cheekweld pistol:

101528

Aero lower
Complete PSA 7” .300 BO upper
SI SPRE Slick short featureless pistol RE, flat spring and buffer

The inspiration:

Short buffer assembly installed on the 7.5” 300BLK. Total length 21.5” w/o QD swivel. Now I need to find time to test function.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211101/64e8c1dd304ad52770605fc0927d8b28.jpg

[Gun Mutt]

Finally got to run my Banshee with a cheekweld with the brace removed from the tube...fekkin loved it. Shot it so much better than when I tried to crowd my self around the brace. Standard OEM tube arrived today, can't wait to get it installed.

My success with this method has me starting a quarter jar for a .300 BO like HD & CF.

[testudo]

I may have missed this being posted elsewhere, KAK Industries recently released some short "CQC" pistol buffer tube kits.

I have one of their "carbine" weight and one of their "heavy" weight kits installed, but haven't had a chance to get to the range. KAK also has a version for pistol calibers.

Coupon code "PSR" usually works for me. "shortboi" may also work.

[Gun Mutt]

Banshee with 7" CMMG buffer tube...really, really dig this configuration.

103865

[zaitcev]

Ruger released the LC Charger:

https://ruger.com/products/lcCharger/models.html

Might need a rail cover where your face goes against the cheese grater, but otherwise seems like it may work.

Oh, and by the way! I run Ruger PC Charger as a cheek pistol and the gas is the most annoying part. I'm thinking about productizing some kind of gas shield, which is integrated with the rail cover. I would prefer it to be pliable, so I may need to print it from resin. It's going to be equally necessary for the LC Charger.

[HeavyDuty]

Ruger released the LC Charger:

https://ruger.com/products/lcCharger/models.html

Might need a rail cover where your face goes against the cheese grater, but otherwise seems like it may work.

Oh, and by the way! I run Ruger PC Charger as a cheek pistol and the gas is the most annoying part. I'm thinking about productizing some kind of gas shield, which is integrated with the rail cover. I would prefer it to be pliable, so I may need to print it from resin. It's going to be equally necessary for the LC Charger.

The LC Charger is interesting as hell, I’m just not sold on the 5.7. It would make a fun SBR project, but no.

[Totem Polar]

Procrastinator that I am, I finally joined the club.

[Paul Blackburn]

Are there any OAL restrictions for an AR cheek pistol?

[HeavyDuty]

Are there any OAL restrictions for an AR cheek pistol?

I know some states have them (MI?) but I’m not sure if there is a federal restriction. Curious to see the answer to this.

[Paul Blackburn]

So are the shorter buffer tubes just for getting the dimensions down for more a discrete package?

[Clusterfrack]

So are the shorter buffer tubes just for getting the dimensions down for more a discrete package?

Yep. But any slick buffer tube that can't accept a stock seems like a good idea for rules reasons.

[Totem Polar]

So are the shorter buffer tubes just for getting the dimensions down for more a discrete package?

Mine—which CF turned me on to—was *entirely* about the new ATF decision. It’s a slick tube with a flat spring/buffer set up that will allegedly handle both subs and supers. Seemed like the best solution to the new problem on my end.

FWIW.

[HeavyDuty]

Mine—which CF turned me on to—was *entirely* about the new ATF decision. It’s a slick tube with a flat spring/buffer set up that will allegedly handle both subs and supers. Seemed like the best solution to the new problem on my end.

FWIW.

That sounds like the same one I used for my dedicated-never-had-a-brace-immaculate-conception pistol. CF is a bad influence.

[Totem Polar]

CF is a bad influence.

I can vouch, regardless of cheekweld pistol.

;)

[Paul Blackburn]

Mine—which CF turned me on to—was *entirely* about the new ATF decision. It’s a slick tube with a flat spring/buffer set up that will allegedly handle both subs and supers. Seemed like the best solution to the new problem on my end.

FWIW.

I'm not tracking. What and how did the new ATF decision affect standard pistol buffer tubes?

[BillSWPA]

I'm not tracking. What and how did the new ATF decision affect standard pistol buffer tubes?

If the buffer tube is longer than necessary for the function of the gun, then under the new rule it could potentially be found to be a shoulder stick. The point at which the line is crossed is as clear as mud, although a standard length pistol buffer tube with no indexing points or other means to attach a stock, brace, or anything else which could assist with shouldering the gun is okay in the absence of other factors described in the new rule. A tube with a shorter than standard length is extra insurance of compliance. A sling attached by a swivel at the end of the tube, where it would interfere with shouldering, could also potentially provide extra insurance of compliance.

[Clusterfrack]

7.5” 300BLK upper in SBR and pistol configurations.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230701/ef3841b467a69bd1162b317ba7695bcf.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230701/b712d0f84e229f93ce33d9dad4caf341.jpg

[awp_101]

7.5” 300BLK upper in SBR and pistol configurations.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230701/ef3841b467a69bd1162b317ba7695bcf.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230701/b712d0f84e229f93ce33d9dad4caf341.jpg
I know you addressed running both earlier in this thread but what are you primarily running now, supers or subs?

[Clusterfrack]

I know you addressed running both earlier in this thread but what are you primarily running now, supers or subs?

Primarily supers. The only reason I'm using 300BLK is because it's got good performance a very short PDW-ish gun.

Unsuppressed subs are an interesting option for home defense because they are less blasty.

Suppressed subs seem like an excellent varmint control option, but here within city limits that's not going to fly.

The SBR lower requires a H3 for supers, and a C for subs (suppressed and especially unsuppressed).

The Strike-short-buffer pistol lower works with all loads, which is awesome.

[awp_101]

Thanks Clusterfrack! I don't want/need a new caliber and I don't really want/need to go down the AR pistol path again but the benefit and usefulness are hard to argue with.

[Clusterfrack]

While this setup has been 100% reliable with 300BLK supers and suppressed subs, it was short stroking unsuppressed with my 220gr Bluebullets load (9.4gr H110). So, using the SBR lower (see below) I tried a Wolff reduced power buffer spring and a C buffer, but the problem persisted. Cutting 3 coils solved it, and I now have solid 3:15 ejection. Interestingly, that setup works with supers as well.

Once again, I've solved an AR problem without mucking around with gas. In fact, every single issue I've encountered with my guns has been solved by changing buffer weight and springs.

109733


7.5” 300BLK upper in SBR and pistol configurations.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230701/ef3841b467a69bd1162b317ba7695bcf.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230701/b712d0f84e229f93ce33d9dad4caf341.jpg

[Clusterfrack]

Latest version of the 300BLK cheek pistol

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231112/8a4d3368f591be5b005aee804b234d97.jpg

[psalms144.1]

Latest version of the 300BLK cheek pistol

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20231112/8a4d3368f591be5b005aee804b234d97.jpgHow's the recoil with that setup and supers? Trying to resist the latest PSA deal of the day...

[Clusterfrack]

How's the recoil with that setup and supers? Trying to resist the latest PSA deal of the day...

I find it really manageable. With subs, it barely moves. I was just doing doubles with 0.11s splits--Hard to argue with that.

[feudist]

I find it really manageable. With subs, it barely moves. I was just doing doubles with 0.11s splits--Hard to argue with that.

Will that setup work for a lefty(hand, not liberal)?

[Clusterfrack]

Will that setup work for a lefty(hand, not liberal)?

Probably no worse than using any AR "support side". I'd test ejection carefully so you don't end up with brass to the face, but my setup works well either side.

[TicTacticalTimmy]

Seems like a few PFers have tried this concept but not a lot of follow up in terms of how well this works, comparison times to conventional stocked guns in drills, etc. Anyone with a cheek pistol care to provide your feedback?

Thinking about throwing together some spare parts to try this out. Should be between $0-$100 to get a feel for it on top of the parts I already have.

Besides compactness in storage, is there any downside to using a carbine tube instead of the shortened pistol tube?
What optic height is ideal?

[BillSWPA]

Seems like a few PFers have tried this concept but not a lot of follow up in terms of how well this works, comparison times to conventional stocked guns in drills, etc. Anyone with a cheek pistol care to provide your feedback?

Thinking about throwing together some spare parts to try this out. Should be between $0-$100 to get a feel for it on top of the parts I already have.

Besides compactness in storage, is there any downside to using a carbine tube instead of the shortened pistol tube?
What optic height is ideal?

In the hopefully unlikely event that the ATF pistol brace rule is allowed to take effect by the courts, a pistol tube with no way to attach a shoulder stock would be safer from a legal standpoint.

[Clusterfrack]

Seems like a few PFers have tried this concept but not a lot of follow up in terms of how well this works, comparison times to conventional stocked guns in drills, etc. Anyone with a cheek pistol care to provide your feedback?

Thinking about throwing together some spare parts to try this out. Should be between $0-$100 to get a feel for it on top of the parts I already have.

Besides compactness in storage, is there any downside to using a carbine tube instead of the shortened pistol tube?
What optic height is ideal?

I haven't done quantitative comparisons, but here's my take:

0-25 yds: carbine and cheek pistol are comparable. Recoil control with the pistol is more challenging and unforgiving.
25-50 yds: I can shoot predictive strings with a carbine, but not with the pistol.
50-200yds: The cheek pistol is surprisingly capable at distance, but a stocked carbine is far superior. As well, I find the pistol very tiring to stabilize for longer, more precise shooting.

EDIT: about optic height--that depends on the size of your face. I can make a standard lower 1/3 height optic work, but someone with a taller head will need a 1.93 or maybe even taller.

[TicTacticalTimmy]

I haven't done quantitative comparisons, but here's my take:

0-25 yds: carbine and cheek pistol are comparable. Recoil control with the pistol is more challenging and unforgiving.
25-50 yds: I can shoot predictive strings with a carbine, but not with the pistol.
50-200yds: The cheek pistol is surprisingly capable at distance, but a stocked carbine is far superior. As well, I find the pistol very tiring to stabilize for longer, more precise shooting.



Thanks, thats about what I would have predicted in visualizing shooting that way. Does not sound like anything magical. Are you doing the isometric-ish grip style Rhett promotes or just KISS and using similar leverages to how you would shoot a normal rifle? If the former, is it hard to shift into that technique or do go back and forth between that and a normal rifle?

I've been teaching a lot of new or newish shooters lately, and the claim that this style would be more quick/natural to learn since the gun is 'welded to your face rather than your torso' makes a lot of sense on paper. Thinking about options to give maximal capability to the non dedicated shooter...

[Clusterfrack]

Thanks, thats about what I would have predicted in visualizing shooting that way. Does not sound like anything magical. Are you doing the isometric-ish grip style Rhett promotes or just KISS and using similar leverages to how you would shoot a normal rifle? If the former, is it hard to shift into that technique or do go back and forth between that and a normal rifle?

To me, the ergos are very different between conventional carbine and cheek pistol (CP). My best CP performance is with a sling, using push-pull. Muscling the gun with the firing hand arm, and a solid cheekweld works as well, but recoil control is better with pushing away with the support arm.

Of course, that's a completely jacked way to shoot a carbine. It's so opposite that I don't find it confusing--but I don't shoot the CP enough to know whether it would eventually interfere with my rifle technique.


I've been teaching a lot of new or newish shooters lately, and the claim that this style would be more quick/natural to learn since the gun is 'welded to your face rather than your torso' makes a lot of sense on paper. Thinking about options to give maximal capability to the non dedicated shooter...

I can't get behind the CP as a default gun for a new shooter--or an experienced one. My carbine technique relies on cheekweld so I don't see the advantage of not also having a stock in solid contact with the shoulder/chest. And the support arm is able to drive transitions way better. IMO.