List of Departments Authorizing and or Issuing MRDS for duty sidearms

[Ethang]

I am putting together a proposal at my department and my LT wants to include a listing of medium to large sized departments comparable to ours, that issue and or authorize MRDS's for duty use.

My search skills I guess suck. I have Sage Dynamics list in the white pages, but most of those are smaller departments. I know Houston, LASD and Delaware State PD, and have reached out to a few LE reps, but have not found a list.

If you know of one or you are part of a mid-large department using them could you please either contact me or post up here. Finding them in individual posts has been tedious.

And yes, as soon as I can get authorization to make my department public I will do so.

Ethan

[jlw]

What is your definition of a mid-large agency?

[Ethang]

What is your definition of a mid-large agency?

My department is over 2,000 sworn, but I think any department with several hundred or more sworn officers would be a good representation.

I just don't want to base my argument on smaller departments that the logistics would be simpler to implement.

[Le Français]

I think ICE (HSI and ERO—well over 10k sworn) recently allowed dots on POWs.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Here's what I see in my Aimpoint travels. Just about EVERY mid to large sized agency is at least studying the concept, if not authorizing/issuing PMOs (Pistol Mounted Optics, the LAPD term and the one I feel best descriptive). There are several approaches:

1. Issue to SWAT and see how it works and then plan on issuing/authorizing for all.
2. Issue in the academy and then migrate the rest of the department.
3. Issue to all troops.
4. Authorize IOP by all.

Big agencies that I know are issuing or authorizing PMOs include:

Houston PD
Austin PD
Fort Worth PD
Travis County TX SO
Harris County TX SO
Phoenix PD
Tucson PD
Mesa PD
LVMPD
LASD
LAPD
Plano TX PD

There are many, many more. If I can help you with training resources, position papers, etc., let me know via PM. I can tell you this: don't buy anymore non-optics capable pistols for issue. You don't want to be the guy that made a decision that won't work for inclusion of a PMO program later. We are all going to be doing this in the next five years...

[Ethang]

Here's what I see in my Aimpoint travels. Just about EVERY mid to large sized agency is at least studying the concept, if not authorizing/issuing PMOs (Pistol Mounted Optics, the LAPD term and the one I feel best descriptive). There are several approaches:

1. Issue to SWAT and see how it works and then plan on issuing/authorizing for all.
2. Issue in the academy and then migrate the rest of the department.
3. Issue to all troops.
4. Authorize IOP by all.

Big agencies that I know are issuing or authorizing PMOs include:

Houston PD
Austin PD
Fort Worth PD
Travis County TX SO
Harris County TX SO
Phoenix PD
Tucson PD
Mesa PD
LVMPD
LASD
LAPD
Plano TX PD

There are many, many more. If I can help you with training resources, position papers, etc., let me know via PM. I can tell you this: don't buy anymore non-optics capable pistols for issue. You don't want to be the guy that made a decision that won't work for inclusion of a PMO program later. We are all going to be doing this in the next five years...

Thank you very much. I sent you a PM with my contact information.

[Chuck Whitlock]

You can add Corpus Christi PD (TX) to Wayne's list. (~300 sworn)

[vcdgrips]

Edge of lane and slight ramble warning.


Wayne is dropping platinum level knowledge in this thread ( and throughout the forum.)

I was at a retirement party for a dynamite detective last friday whom the dept made retire after 35 years despite him being a very fit 56 yr old with no kids, married to a LEO, because that is the policy. The KC metro area is less safe with his absence from the streets but I digress.

At the party, I spoke with an agency range master re what was initially an executive driven migration toward 9mm away from .40 cal.

As such, all new academy classes beginning in 2022, will be buying an MOS capable Glock 9mm. PMO sight evaluation is ongoing by range staff with an eye toward SWAT first, new officer classes 2nd and IOP third.

If this is anything like the move toward Glock, away from a prior platform, it will take longer than anticipated but it is definitely going to happen. In fairness, as officers purchase their weapons, it always takes time to get folks to go into their own pockets. i.e. low interest loans from the credit union for new sidearms, IOP carbines etc.

There will likely be a drop dead date by which you will have the MOS Glock or you will be separating from the department within 12 months from that date such that you will be exempt.

Perhaps unsurprisingly, the biggest potential kinks in the cogs right now are both weapon and holster availability. Ammo and PMOs, not so much.

YMMV Greatly. FWIW.


PS-I was told by an ATF agent at the same party that field agents would be getting a PMO in the upcoming fiscal year. He did not know what optic. While he is not a gun guy, he dropped the same knowledge re the switch from Sig to Glock about 12-18 months out back in the day. As I type this, it has been long enough such that those Glocks could certainly be due for "replacement" to an MOS platform.

[HCM]

I am putting together a proposal at my department and my LT wants to include a listing of medium to large sized departments comparable to ours, that issue and or authorize MRDS's for duty use.

My search skills I guess suck. I have Sage Dynamics list in the white pages, but most of those are smaller departments. I know Houston, LASD and Delaware State PD, and have reached out to a few LE reps, but have not found a list.

If you know of one or you are part of a mid-large department using them could you please either contact me or post up here. Finding them in individual posts has been tedious.

And yes, as soon as I can get authorization to make my department public I will do so.

Ethan

U.S. ICE issues various versions of the SIG P320 with the Sig Romeo1PRO optic. New Agents will be issued the DHS P320 X Carry with the R1P and everyone else will be transitioning to RDS within the next few years. In addition, the following are authorized as POWs: SIG P365XL & P365X with the Romeo Zero RDS, SIG P320 (DHS SKU) with either the R1P or the type 2 RMR, Glock Gen4 17 or 19 MOS with either R1P or RMR Type 2. BUIS are required but do not have to be night sights since the RDS fills that requirement.

The ICE MRDS program was “field tested” by SRT for a year prior to agency wide authorization. For perspective they had no optics failures during the field test but they did manage to deadline three P320s by bending the ejectors via “over enthusiastic” emergency reloads.

FBI is transitioning their SWAT to G19M MOS models with type 2 RMRs. Once current 19M supplies are exhausted new agents will be issued the 19M MOS in anticipation of wider RDS issue in the future. Also going forward all Glock 19/17s purchased via their POW program will be M MOS models.

The US Marshal’s Service has authorized RDS POW Glocks (RMR or DPP) for the past 2-3 years and they are supposed to start issuing RDS Glocks to new Deputies in the Academy. No details. The USMS SOG (their national SWAT) is issuing Stacatto P DUOs with Leupold DPP.

The San Antonio Police Dept. With approximately 2,000 sworn authorizes the M&P CORE .40 for duty and other RDS guns for off duty with 4 optic options: RMR type 2, ACRO, Holosun 508T and the Leupold DPP. They are currently looking at transitioning to an optics ready 9mm platform.

Houston PD authorizes RDS pistols and though they don’t “issue” pistols, the standard pistol for their academy cadets is the Glock 17 Gen 5 MOS with RMR. I don’t have further details on HPD.

[1Rangemaster]

I know the city of Atlanta, GA, has started a small program with RMRs.
Idaho and Utah State Police have begun with Holosuns on pistols.
The issue with many agencies is, as usual, budgets.

[KevH]

I'm in the San Francisco Bay Area.

My department and just about every other department I can think of near me (except CHP and SFPD perhaps) authorize pistol optics for use by their officers. I can only think of one department locally that actually issues them and they're issuing. Glock 45 with an RMR Type 2.

Another large department that authorizes PMO's is Phoenix PD in Arizona. I don't know where you are located, but I'm sure if you call around local plenty of departments near you will likely authorize optics. It's becoming the norm.

Whatever pistol we go with in the next few years to replace our current original M&P 9's will have an optic plate; however, I'm not sure we are going to actually issue optics.

"IF" we decided to issue an optic right now I would lean toward either a Holosun 508t or 509t. I love the RMR Type 2, but from an armorer standpoint I can't think of a bigger pain in the ass than having to swap out batteries department wide on an optic I have to unmount/remount every year.

[Erick Gelhaus]

My old org doesn't meet the listed criteria, only @250 sworn. The Lt currently tasked with such things is buying PMO capable Glocks as they have to replace gen 4 17s & 19s. Current instructors have had access to classes with Jedlinski and Yong Lee.

[AMC]

I'm also in the SF Bay Area.....in the agency KevH referred to that is not a state Highway Patrol. We do not yet issue or authorize optics, but it's only a matter of time. All of our instructors have gone through the Sig Academy Pistol Mounted Optics Instructor Program. One of the main criteria for our next handgun is that it be an optics ready platform. I'll say that of the larger agencies in the area that do NOT currently issue or authorize optics that I'm aware of, every single one is planning on doing so in the near future.

ETA: the Sheriffs Office just south of us is transitioning to the Sig 320 Pro with a Sig Romeo1 Pro optic, issued, for all personnel, or other authorized pistol and optic combo.

[psalms144.1]

My agency is in the process of procuring Gen5 G19 MOSs for general issue, but our policy still SPECIFICALLY prohibits any PMO as a "competition only modification." Sigh. Have I mentioned I'm 70 days and a wake up from retirement today?

[AMC]

My agency is in the process of procuring Gen5 G19 MOSs for general issue, but our policy still SPECIFICALLY prohibits any PMO as a "competition only modification." Sigh. Have I mentioned I'm 70 days and a wake up from retirement today?

Nice. End of June for me.....or a really bad couple of days considering how things are going around here. Dealing with police administrators on this stuff is beyond frustrating. The "Administrative No" is the easy answer from the ignorant and the incompetent. Most folks outside the profession have no idea that most police "Leadership" knows next to nothing about the job of the people they ostensibly lead.

[Gadfly]

The ICE MRDS program was “field tested” by SRT for a year prior to agency wide authorization. For perspective they had no optics failures during the field test but they did manage to deadline three P320s by bending the ejectors via “over enthusiastic” emergency reloads.



More than 3... as I was the 4th or 5th bent/broken ejector per Altoona, and that was over a year ago. My POW got dead lined and replaced by the SIG mothership.

In this movie i saw... the local HSI office got well over 100 slides and R1Ps sent to them, but has yet to enough ammo sent to do the transition training (because congress wont pass a damn budget).... in this movie I saw..... But allegedly that is to be sorted out soon. Hopefully In the sequel to the movie I saw, which should come out next quarter.

We somehow approved the Sig Romeo Zero for personal purchase use on the p365. I don't know how that passed testing. My buddy that owns a range/shop said he gets a VERY high percentage of Romeo Zeros brought in not working. When I told him it had passed our testing, he was highly skeptical.

[HCM]

More than 3... as I was the 4th or 5th bent/broken ejector per Altoona, and that was over a year ago. My POW got dead lined and replaced by the SIG mothership.

In this movie i saw... the local HSI office got well over 100 slides and R1Ps sent to them, but has yet to enough ammo sent to do the transition training (because congress wont pass a damn budget).... in this movie I saw..... But allegedly that is to be sorted out soon. Hopefully In the sequel to the movie I saw, which should come out next quarter.

We somehow approved the Sig Romeo Zero for personal purchase use on the p365. I don't know how that passed testing. My buddy that owns a range/shop said he gets a VERY high percentage of Romeo Zeros brought in not working. When I told him it had passed our testing, he was highly skeptical.

Yes but only 3 of the TACTICAL TAN ! SRT program guns. I’m sure there will be more bent ejectors.

I saw the same movie.

Re: The R0 - I suspect it “passed” the same way (and for the same reasons) the G43 “passed.” I can personally attest that it is very easy to damage the polymer body of the R0 while re-installing after battery changes. I’m recommending anyone carrying the R0 keep a spare optic handy.

[AMC]

I’m recommending anyone carrying the R0 keep a spare optic handy.

.....on a second gun. Carried on your person.

[Ethang]

Thank you to everyone that has responded so far, I was able to put a number of comparable size departments on my proposal. Now the waiting game to see how long it takes.

I can understand some who can't list their department by name(myself included yet) but without the department names I cannot put them in my list to send up the chain of command.

As to the movie that some are getting to watch... I have not seen that one yet but would love to if it gets released.

Ethan

[beenalongtime]

Edge of lane and slight ramble warning.


Wayne is dropping platinum level knowledge in this thread ( and throughout the forum.)

I was at a retirement party for a dynamite detective last friday whom the dept made retire after 35 years despite him being a very fit 56 yr old with no kids, married to a LEO, because that is the policy. The KC metro area is less safe with his absence from the streets but I digress.

At the party, I spoke with an agency range master re what was initially an executive driven migration toward 9mm away from .40 cal.

As such, all new academy classes beginning in 2022, will be buying an MOS capable Glock 9mm. PMO sight evaluation is ongoing by range staff with an eye toward SWAT first, new officer classes 2nd and IOP third.

If this is anything like the move toward Glock, away from a prior platform, it will take longer than anticipated but it is definitely going to happen. In fairness, as officers purchase their weapons, it always takes time to get folks to go into their own pockets. i.e. low interest loans from the credit union for new sidearms, IOP carbines etc.

There will likely be a drop dead date by which you will have the MOS Glock or you will be separating from the department within 12 months from that date such that you will be exempt.

Perhaps unsurprisingly, the biggest potential kinks in the cogs right now are both weapon and holster availability. Ammo and PMOs, not so much.

YMMV Greatly. FWIW.




With the exception of my families former partner, most of the KC officers I knew, have retired in the last couple of years. If they decide on an optic, please post up what they do decide on.

[Gadfly]

Re: The R0 - I suspect it “passed” the same way (and for the same reasons) the G43 “passed.” I can personally attest that it is very easy to damage the polymer body of the R0 while re-installing after battery changes. I’m recommending anyone carrying the R0 keep a spare optic handy.

I am guessing HQ pencil whipped the R0 into the approved list, like the 43. I expect the same results… failed products. I like to tell the troops that “if we approved it, it means we beat the shit out of it in testing, so you can trust it”. It pisses me off I know I can’t say that with a straight face after the 43.

They are making it mandatory to have a metal shroud installed around the R0. One built specifically at our request. We call that a clue. It may have alleviated the issues. Maybe. Or it’s a bandaid… who knows. This may be a “it’s a back up, so it only needs a 5k test, not a 10k test” thing like the you-know-what.

Problem is, the shroud thickness raises the “back up” rear sight molded into the R0, and as such, you are hitting 6” high at 10 yards. Sig has yet to make a front sight to account for this… and as such, our roll out of the R0 is on hold for now.

From everything I have seen and heard, I will skip a RDS on the 365. I may revisit the concept when a more robust candidate is named. I see a lot of Holosuns on the 365 these days.

[WobblyPossum]

Gadfly I’m also hoping to see the Holosun 507K approved as an option for the smaller guns. I’m likely going to try and pick up a P365XL at the end of the year as I contemplate switching back to the agency gun.

[Utm]

Here's what I see in my Aimpoint travels. Just about EVERY mid to large sized agency is at least studying the concept, if not authorizing/issuing PMOs (Pistol Mounted Optics, the LAPD term and the one I feel best descriptive). There are several approaches:

1. Issue to SWAT and see how it works and then plan on issuing/authorizing for all.
2. Issue in the academy and then migrate the rest of the department.
3. Issue to all troops.
4. Authorize IOP by all.

Big agencies that I know are issuing or authorizing PMOs include:

Houston PD
Austin PD
Fort Worth PD
Travis County TX SO
Harris County TX SO
Phoenix PD
Tucson PD
Mesa PD
LVMPD
LASD
LAPD
Plano TX PD

There are many, many more. If I can help you with training resources, position papers, etc., let me know via PM. I can tell you this: don't buy anymore non-optics capable pistols for issue. You don't want to be the guy that made a decision that won't work for inclusion of a PMO program later. We are all going to be doing this in the next five years...
It's a much longer drawn out process to issue the RDS. Easier for the officers but takes forever. I think issuing optic ready guns to everyone and approve the top 3-or 4 optics that passed the testing process and let the officer purchase them is the way to go.

[Wayne Dobbs]

It's a much longer drawn out process to issue the RDS. Easier for the officers but takes forever. I think issuing optic ready guns to everyone and approve the top 3-or 4 optics that passed the testing process and let the officer purchase them is the way to go.

That can be a train wreck plan...just sayin'

[MVS]

It's a much longer drawn out process to issue the RDS. Easier for the officers but takes forever. I think issuing optic ready guns to everyone and approve the top 3-or 4 optics that passed the testing process and let the officer purchase them is the way to go.

That is exactly what our local Sheriffs department just did. They are switching to 9mm Sig 320s from .40 cal XDM's and are allowing deputy's the choice to run from an approved list of optics. It is my understanding that out of about 150 deputy's issued handguns 50 of them have chosen to go with an optic at the present time. The transition for the new guns is 1 day 300 rounds for irons, or 2 days 600 rounds for optics guns. They are using material from Sage Dynamics but I don't know if their range officers have actually trained with Cowan. I mostly agree with Wayne that this could be sloppy.

[Utm]

That can be a train wreck plan...just sayin'

I think it's less of a headache if you say here's an MOS gun and you can purchase an acro, rmr, holosun 508, 507, 509. Have a department armorer install it. I don't see how that would cause much of an issue

[Utm]

That is exactly what our local Sheriffs department just did. They are switching to 9mm Sig 320s from .40 cal XDM's and are allowing deputy's the choice to run from an approved list of optics. It is my understanding that out of about 150 deputy's issued handguns 50 of them have chosen to go with an optic at the present time. The transition for the new guns is 1 day 300 rounds for irons, or 2 days 600 rounds for optics guns. They are using material from Sage Dynamics but I don't know if their range officers have actually trained with Cowan. I mostly agree with Wayne that this could be sloppy.
Out of 114 or so we had about 4 or 5 go no optic. PD is issuing. Class is 16 hours but the process has taken a little over a year and half for even the first guns to be issued

[Kyle Reese]

PM sent, Mr.Dobbs. Thank you for your help.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DMF13]

PS-I was told by an ATF agent at the same party that field agents would be getting a PMO in the upcoming fiscal year. He did not know what optic. While he is not a gun guy, he dropped the same knowledge re the switch from Sig to Glock about 12-18 months out back in the day. As I type this, it has been long enough such that those Glocks could certainly be due for "replacement" to an MOS platform.I wouldn't read too much into that supposed "early" knowledge about the SIG to Glock switch by ATF. The actual switch was delayed a LONG time due to SIG's infamous protest of being removed from the trials for the new pistols, that resulted in Glocks and S&W M&P being awarded the contract. Both were available for purchase, but ATF only bought the Glocks. Also, those were Gen 4 .40cal Glocks, and ATF switched to 9mm Glocks just a couple years ago, so I doubt those guns need to be replaced. Whether or not they want to replace them, and have the money to replace them, is a different story.

[ECS686]

If it's any help the Indiana DNR Conservation Officers adopted Sig 320 with MRDS. Give Kipper a call and if he doesnt have the info he can get it for you.

Firearms - Lt. Dave Kipper - 317-837-3220

And here's the Conversation Oficers number from ILEA as well

Indiana Conservation Officer Training - 317-837-3290

Good luck

[HCM]

I wouldn't read too much into that supposed "early" knowledge about the SIG to Glock switch by ATF. The actual switch was delayed a LONG time due to SIG's infamous protest of being removed from the trials for the new pistols, that resulted in Glocks and S&W M&P being awarded the contract. Both were available for purchase, but ATF only bought the Glocks. Also, those were Gen 4 .40cal Glocks, and ATF switched to 9mm Glocks just a couple years ago, so I doubt those guns need to be replaced. Whether or not they want to replace them, and have the money to replace them, is a different story.

Don’t ha e to replace the whole gun.It can be accomplished via slide swaps, which is what ICE is doing with the recently issued P320s. Yes

[DMF13]

True, but they would need to have a contract to do that. Meaning they either have to use a contract that another agency has, that allows their Glocks to be modified, or they have to start the process to get a new contract. Does that ICE contract allow for other pistols, or just P320s?

[WobblyPossum]

True, but they would need to have a contract to do that. Meaning they either have to use a contract that another agency has, that allows their Glocks to be modified, or they have to start the process to get a new contract. Does that ICE contract allow for other pistols, or just P320s?

ICE allows certain approved personally owned weapons manufactured by Glock and SIG but the only handgun there’s a contract for is a DHS SKU P320.

ETA: I guess there are actually two variants of the P320 on the contract because the SWAT team guys are issued a different P320 than everyone else.

[HCM]

True, but they would need to have a contract to do that. Meaning they either have to use a contract that another agency has, that allows their Glocks to be modified, or they have to start the process to get a new contract. Does that ICE contract allow for other pistols, or just P320s?

The slides and optics are OEM being supplied by SIG as a modification of the original contract to supply the guns. Not a 3rd party.

My understanding is ATF is getting their G19M’s off the FBI/DOJ contract. Going forward the Bureau has already modified the contract to acquire G19M MOS and G17M MOS. So it is just a matter of making a side deal with Glock.

[HCM]

ICE allows certain approved personally owned weapons manufactured by Glock and SIG but the only handgun there’s a contract for is a DHS SKU P320.

ETA: I guess there are actually two variants of the P320 on the contract because the SWAT team guys are issued a different P320 than everyone else.

I believe he was under the impression slides are being cut by a third-party vendor.

And there are multiple variance on the contract, all with the DHS FCU. The standard Carry and the Tan SRT gun are most common but there are GOV FS and sub compacts.

[WobblyPossum]

I believe he was under the impression slides are being cut by a third-party vendor.

And there are multiple variance on the contract, all with the DHS FCU. The standard Carry and the Tan SRT gun are most common but there are GOV FS and sub compacts.

Ah, then I misunderstood the question. I also didn’t know about the Gov full size and sub compacts. I hadn’t seen those in the field. Everyone I’ve met with a FS or SC has one of the POW guns.

[Clark Jackson]

PM sent.

[KeeFus]

Fayetteville NC PD is now putting dots out for use in patrol. I saw one in the wild last week and spoke with the officer. From what he was saying it’s a short transition class that’s included with the yearly qualification. Glock 17s and using non-OEM plates to mount these Holosun optics.

85970

[El Cid]

Fayetteville NC PD is now putting dots out for use in patrol. I saw one in the wild last week and spoke with the officer. From what he was saying it’s a short transition class that’s included with the yearly qualification. Glock 17s and using non-OEM plates to mount these Holosun optics.

85970

Did he pull the weapon out to show you? Or is he walking around with the gun not seated? lol!

[KeeFus]

Did he pull the weapon out to show you? Or is he walking around with the gun not seated? lol!

Lol. No, I asked to see the optic.

[AMC]

Fayetteville NC PD is now putting dots out for use in patrol. I saw one in the wild last week and spoke with the officer. From what he was saying it’s a short transition class that’s included with the yearly qualification. Glock 17s and using non-OEM plates to mount these Holosun optics.

85970

I've seen several agencies take this "Here's the optic...just qual with it and you're good" approach, and I strongly disagree with it. Training new shooters from the get go with an optic is a transparent process, and likely makes learning a bit easier for some folks. But taking in-service cops and handing them new equipment without adequate training (which is a massive near-universal failing in our profession) is bad juju, period. Especially when this new equipment changes how you aim and engage with your bullet launcher. Passing a qual is generally a meaningless accomplishment.

[KeeFus]

I've seen several agencies take this "Here's the optic...just qual with it and you're good" approach, and I strongly disagree with it. Training new shooters from the get go with an optic is a transparent process, and likely makes learning a bit easier for some folks. But taking in-service cops and handing them new equipment without adequate training (which is a massive near-universal failing in our profession) is bad juju, period. Especially when this new equipment changes how you aim and engage with your bullet launcher. Passing a qual is generally a meaningless accomplishment.

Unless he misspoke or I misunderstood… that’s what it seemed like. FPD has a robust firearms training program so I’d like to think there is more. I will ask around and see what I can find out.

[KeeFus]

Followup. 4-5 hour red dot transition class in conjunction with qualifications.

FWIW, It seems the officers are doing well with the dogs.

[AMC]

Followup. 4-5 hour red dot transition class in conjunction with qualifications.

FWIW, It seems the officers are doing well with the dogs.

I'd be curious to know if that means "doing well on the static qual" or doing well overall. Having done the Sig Academy Pistol Mounted Optics Instructor course, and shooting maybe 300 rounds a week on a dot, on a variety of drills and exercises, I am still faster and just as accurate inside 10 yards with irons. Outside 10 yards it's a game changer for my aging eyes. Getting there is a process....and I'm still at the beginning of that process.

I just don't think a 4-5 hour course is sufficient to make this change. Guys with way more time on the dot than me like SoCalDep and Erick Gelhaus could maybe chime in

[HCM]

True, but they would need to have a contract to do that. Meaning they either have to use a contract that another agency has, that allows their Glocks to be modified, or they have to start the process to get a new contract. Does that ICE contract allow for other pistols, or just P320s?

To follow up on this, the ICE contract for the SIG P320 is for the “P320 Pistol system,” the key word being “System.” Essentially anything SIG sells for the P320, optics, slides, suppressors etc is part of the “system” and can be purchased via the contract with little or no modifications.

You seem familiar with the time, hassle, and expense involved in federal contracts and so conversely the benefits of a “system” contract.

Meanwhile in the executive washroom at SIG:


https://youtu.be/YyvHqYu_KXI

[SoCalDep]

I'd be curious to know if that means "doing well on the static qual" or doing well overall. Having done the Sig Academy Pistol Mounted Optics Instructor course, and shooting maybe 300 rounds a week on a dot, on a variety of drills and exercises, I am still faster and just as accurate inside 10 yards with irons. Outside 10 yards it's a game changer for my aging eyes. Getting there is a process....and I'm still at the beginning of that process.

I just don't think a 4-5 hour course is sufficient to make this change. Guys with way more time on the dot than me like SoCalDep and Erick Gelhaus could maybe chime in

A qual or 4-5hr class or 8hr class is enough to check the "deliberate indifference" box but not enough to really build proficiency.

We do a 16hr class and I see people who complete it who I would not consider prepared for a lethal encounter. In fact, today I had a very raw talk with a group who completed our 16hr class.

The pistol optic can be, and in many cases is a game-changer for skills, but it's not as easy a transition as most people think. They stand at a few different range markers, shoot a qual with unrealistic time standards, and we tell them they are good. They met the "standard" and they think they are "good". Are they good on the move, with strong and support hand, when manipulating and stressed? That's why in our class, they pre-qual and in the class we don't tell them they are "good". We tell them to self evaluate and if they aren't totally confident they shouldn't carry the dot until they practice enough to be confident.

This won't be so much of an issue once everyone has grown up on the dot, but I've seen enough issues from those transitioning that the short "qual-based" programs are giving false confidence to people. They'll be fine if everything goes right. If not... well...

[cpd2110]

I work in a task force setting and am the head firearms instructor for my agency. We have two agencies in our group that allow dots, both did a couple hour transition course. My agency is doing a three day course that we started this year. My instructors felt it was the best amount of time to start and we will evaluate if it needs to go to two days. The first group taking the transition course was small and actually new firearms instructors. They all liked the three days as they felt it really allowed them a better understanding of the dot and issues. I can’t imagine only doing a few hours and calling it good.

[SoCalDep]

I work in a task force setting and am the head firearms instructor for my agency. We have two agencies in our group that allow dots, both did a couple hour transition course. My agency is doing a three day course that we started this year. My instructors felt it was the best amount of time to start and we will evaluate if it needs to go to two days. The first group taking the transition course was small and actually new firearms instructors. They all liked the three days as they felt it really allowed them a better understanding of the dot and issues. I can’t imagine only doing a few hours and calling it good.

I wish we could do three days. I know of at least a couple big agency firearms training units that wanted at least a two day class if not more and were only allowed to do a one day. One of those units had to fight because the department wanted it to be a four hour class.

[cpd2110]

I wish we could do three days. I know of at least a couple big agency firearms training units that wanted at least a two day class if not more and were only allowed to do a one day. One of those units had to fight because the department wanted it to be a four hour class.

We are fortunate here that the former Chief was a firearms instructor and former SWAT member/Commander. The current Chief is also a former SWAT Commander and Head DT instructor. They both get it and support us in what we do, plus we have a good budget for firearms related training and our own range. I think the range/budget play a factor for some places in that they may have limited access/ammo. The rest of it in my view is poor leadership and not getting it.

As good as we have it I once got lit up when I pushed back on a boss telling me we only needed 2 hours to train people on ballistic shield. And that training was only part of a larger piece where we had other items to fit into our normal range training. I lost the battle but we did small on shift training events for a year and than each firearms/tactics training we incorporated it to help bridge the gap. The total weight of what some administrators do not get when it comes to training is staggering. Just a "simple" shield training at minimum requires proper stance/use of the shield, stationary, moving, partners, reloading/malfunction, low light, incorporating K9 or less lethal to name just a few. The same goes for transitioning to a dot gun, in particular for older officers who likely will need more time to just start the real process of switching from the irons to the dot. The extra time helps.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Were I to be in a position to do this, it would be a 2-day transition class. Yes, ammo is really tight right now. Dry reps, lots of dry reps.

[TGS]

True, but they would need to have a contract to do that. Meaning they either have to use a contract that another agency has, that allows their Glocks to be modified, or they have to start the process to get a new contract. Does that ICE contract allow for other pistols, or just P320s?

Replacing slides of a pre-existing platform in use for RDS capable slides would very likely be accomplished using a sole-source supplier exemption if a given contract wasn't structured in a well crafted manner that permitted changes.

[Utm]

Were I to be in a position to do this, it would be a 2-day transition class. Yes, ammo is really tight right now. Dry reps, lots of dry reps.

Ours is 16 hours, I think 24 would be optimal but after seeing others say they only had a day or a few hours, I'll be happy with the 16

[Ethang]

Were I to be in a position to do this, it would be a 2-day transition class. Yes, ammo is really tight right now. Dry reps, lots of dry reps.

This is part of the problem I am running into. Command wants a cost basis done before even authorizing going forward with training for the range staff, let alone greenlighting the pilot program I wrote.

Ammo cost and training time is one of the primary sticking points, equipment costs would be on the individual officer. I pointed out that dry fire training will mitigate some of the ammo issue, but falling on deaf ears it seems.