"Out of time" vs. skipping chambers

[OlongJohnson]

jetfire has used the phrase "out of time" to describe a situation of skipping chambers on his latest revolver. Started this thread to avoid derailing the Beretta MR73 thread with a discussion of semantics that is universal to revolvers.

I'm not sure I agree with use of the phrase "out of time" to describe a situation of skipping chambers.

In general, my understanding of "out of time" is that it means the totality of the wear condition of the trigger, hammer, hand, ratchet, frame windows, etc. is such that it is possible for the hammer to either drop or be cocked into single action before the cylinder has rotated far enough for the cylinder stop to rise up into the cylinder notch. Thus, the hammer may fall on a primer with the chamber not properly aligned with the barrel.

Skipping chambers is, in a sense, the opposite problem, in that the cylinder continues rotating past the point where the cylinder stop should rise up into the cylinder notch. The hammer may also fall on a primer with the chamber not properly aligned with the barrel, but the nature of the condition is fundamentally different.

Usually, skipping chambers will only be experienced in moderately rapid DA fire or dryfire, as it is a failure of the stop to rise and catch the cylinder notch.

Conversely, a revolver that is "out of time" and subject to early hammer fall will often run fine in DA, as the rotation of the cylinder carries it through to lockup before the hammer actually falls.

Wear between the trigger and cylinder stop could only cause the cylinder stop to be released sooner, slightly lengthening the turn line but having no other ill effects that come to mind. It could not interfere with the cylinder stop rising appropriately.

Does anyone strongly disagree with the statement that "out of time" ≠ skipping chambers?

I'm not trying to be a pedantic douche, but precision matters because its saying different things about what might be wrong with the gun.

[Outpost75]

A "DCU" - factory jargon. for "doesn t carry up" refers to timing and indexing of the charge holes. Correction is accomplished by adjusting or replacing the hand or pawl.

Failure of the cylinder to lock up, caused by failure of the locking bolt or cylinder stop to engage its locking notches in the cylinder, permitting the cylinder to over-rotate past the charge hole, is referred to as a "throwby". Correction is usually a. accomplished by refitting a replacement part or simply replacing the cylinder stop spring

[medmo]

jetfire has used the phrase "out of time" to describe a situation of skipping chambers on his latest revolver. Started this thread to avoid derailing the Beretta MR73 thread with a discussion of semantics that is universal to revolvers.

I'm not sure I agree with use of the phrase "out of time" to describe a situation of skipping chambers.

In general, my understanding of "out of time" is that it means the totality of the wear condition of the trigger, hammer, hand, ratchet, frame windows, etc. is such that it is possible for the hammer to either drop or be cocked into single action before the cylinder has rotated far enough for the cylinder stop to rise up into the cylinder notch. Thus, the hammer may fall on a primer with the chamber not properly aligned with the barrel.

Skipping chambers is, in a sense, the opposite problem, in that the cylinder continues rotating past the point where the cylinder stop should rise up into the cylinder notch. The hammer may also fall on a primer with the chamber not properly aligned with the barrel, but the nature of the condition is fundamentally different.

Usually, skipping chambers will only be experienced in moderately rapid DA fire or dryfire, as it is a failure of the stop to rise and catch the cylinder notch.

Conversely, a revolver that is "out of time" and subject to early hammer fall will often run fine in DA, as the rotation of the cylinder carries it through to lockup before the hammer actually falls.

Wear between the trigger and cylinder stop could only cause the cylinder stop to be released sooner, slightly lengthening the turn line but having no other ill effects that come to mind. It could not interfere with the cylinder stop rising appropriately.

Does anyone strongly disagree with the statement that "out of time" ≠ skipping chambers?

I'm not trying to be a pedantic douche, but precision matters because its saying different things about what might be wrong with the gun.

Strongly disagree. It isn’t timed correctly so it is out of time. The cylinder stop or bolt didn’t engage the correct cylinder notch at the correct time. A revolver not timing correctly can cause multiple different kinds of problems including a skipped cylinder.

[willie]

Finding a gunsmith who has the skill to repair such problems would be my concern. Bubba-smithing is the major cause of these types of action problems. Dan Lehr is a factory trained S&W armorer. Maybe he will show up and expound.

[RevolverRob]

A "DCU" - factory jargon. for "doesn t carry up" refers to timing and indexing of the charge holes. Correction is accomplished by adjusting or replacing the hand or pawl.

Failure of the cylinder to lock up, caused by failure of the locking bolt or cylinder stop to engage its locking notches in the cylinder, permitting the cylinder to over-rotate past the charge hole, is referred to as a "throwby". Correction is usually a. accomplished by refitting a replacement part or simply replacing the cylinder stop spring

This is consistent with the terminology used in gunsmithing manuals on revolvers I've read. Particularly ones from before 1980.

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Because both conditions can result in a misfire/nonfiring situation and both involve the timing of lockup of the cylinder relative to the drop of the hammer I would view both as "out of time" conditions. Though each has a different etiology and distinct fix to them.

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Now that I've said that, when I read "out of time" I did initially envision a "DCU" situation. And thought that wear of the pawl or hand on an MR73 that had <10,000 cycles on it was absolutely unacceptable. Because I have "notoriously fragile" Colts with ~10,000 action cycles on them not exhibiting any wear. And the MR73 is supposed to be Uber Robust.

Upon realization that it is a "throwby" or "chamber skip" situation - I became less concerned. Because I have had that issue occur with relatively new revolvers. And the typical fix is replacing the cylinder stop spring. Which is why I asked Caleb if the French had given him a "don't do that" sort of finger wag. In my experience, a company that says, "Don't do that!" When you break their gun, knows there is a parts issue. A company thar says, "Oh that sucks. Sorry, here's how to fix it." Knows their product can handle the wear and tear, though they may note there needs to be semi-regular replacement of that particular part.

All springs in all guns being wear parts - if it's a spring issue, I won't ever lose sleep over it.

[medmo]

A "DCU" - factory jargon. for "doesn t carry up" refers to timing and indexing of the charge holes. Correction is accomplished by adjusting or replacing the hand or pawl.

Failure of the cylinder to lock up, caused by failure of the locking bolt or cylinder stop to engage its locking notches in the cylinder, permitting the cylinder to over-rotate past the charge hole, is referred to as a "throwby". Correction is usually a. accomplished by refitting a replacement part or simply replacing the cylinder stop spring

All of the above are symptoms of timing problems. Timing problems are exactly what it sounds like. Mechanical things happening out of the correct timing sequence. Different timing problems cause different kinds of symptoms but they are all timing problems. "Doesn't carry up" and "Throw by" are both timing problems.

[john c]

I just want to say thanks to the OP for starting this thread, and thanks to Outpost75 for his contributions. I was hoping for, and got, an enlightened discussion of revolver mechanics. Despite some distractions.


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[Lex Luthier]

I will second what john c said. Re-reading Outpost75 s description just clarified a minor issue I am seeing with my own Model 66-1.

If my earlier (now removed) comment in this thread caused any consternation, I apologize; t'was not my intent at all.