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JV_
02-25-2011, 12:24 PM
Max Michel, in one of his online videos, emphasized placing your middle finger joint (strong hand) directly under the trigger guard. He is trying to emphasize that you need a properly sized gun for your hand, and I agree, but how important is that point?

With the Glock, M&P, and P30, my knuckle is just to the right of the guard and to get it directly under it, I have to severely compromise my grip on the backstrap. It seems like it'd work for folks who have larger hands, but not smaller.

Other than Max, I've never heard of anyone talking about those two points for indexing a grip.

Chipster
02-25-2011, 12:30 PM
I have never seen that video, do you have a link? I have seen people advocate the index finger of the weak hand be placed right under the trigger guard, but never specifically a knuckle. I used to place my middle finger there instead and my index further forward. I will have to try it later and see how it feels.

JV_
02-25-2011, 12:34 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgByPFHCpQE

At about 1:50

Looking closely at his grip, it looks similar to mine, it's not quite under. Perhaps I'm taking his words too literally, and he really means the middle finger segment (or whatever you'd call it), but I don't think he means the joint itself.

derekb
02-25-2011, 12:36 PM
My grip seems to naturally place the second knuckle of my strong hand middle finger, and the first knuckle of my weak hand index finger, right under the trigger guard. I guess it's significant that I shoot a P7M8, as I do not need my strong hand thumb to access any controls. I use my trigger finger to operate the mag release.

glockshooter
02-25-2011, 12:38 PM
I have tried that style of grip but end up with to much finger in the trigger guard and pulling the shots. For me a more neautral grip where I can still get to the mag release and slide stop works the best.

JV_
02-25-2011, 12:42 PM
Todd Jarrett seems like prefer having the gun in a straight line, all the way from elbow to front sight. That is what I've traditionally tried to do:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4584332856867071363#

gtmtnbiker98
02-25-2011, 12:49 PM
Many instructors advocate what Max suggests and many more actually cut out a portion of the trigger guard as an index point of reference for their grip. During long shooting sessions I actually develop a callus on my finger from gripping under the trigger guard. Is it necessarily right or wrong, depends.

TCinVA
02-25-2011, 12:53 PM
Remember when you're seeing this type of advice, it's often built around the concept of the ideal. With the incredible variability built into the human being by God/evolution (depending on your view of existence) the ideal may not always be what you can get. Speaking personally, I have a callous on the middle joint of the middle finger on my right hand, as that's where the trigger guard lines up when I assume a firing grip that places the slide in line with my forearm.

Chipster
02-25-2011, 01:02 PM
Looking at the video it does appear that his knuckle is more under the trigger guard then mine when I grip. I do however have the same callous as everyone else does on my middle finger knuckle. It was a good video and it is interesting that alot of his mechanics are just like what Todd teaches in his AFHF class.

JV_
02-25-2011, 01:05 PM
I've gleaned a number of points from his videos, and Todd J.'s. One thing I need to work on is not rolling my shoulders.

aspect
02-25-2011, 01:51 PM
I think the very first thing I learned while pistol shooting for the first time at a rental range was that "the ideal grip does not always work for everyone."

I had fired my first couple shots on a 9mm 5" 1911, and then asked the instructor (one was assigned to each first-time shooter) if my grip was ok. He said no, and then proceeded to organize my hands using guidelines like muzzle-forearm alignment (this was in a weaver stance), making sure such-and-such finger or knuckle was aligned with such-and-such part of the gun. Eventually he pronounced that my grip was perfect, and stood back to let me finish off the magazine. I have quite small hands (the "small" Hatch gloves are a little too big for me), and it felt pretty uncomfortable, but I had no idea what it was supposed to feel like to hold a handgun so I shrugged it off.

On firing the first shot (keep in mind, 9mm in a heavy gun), a spike of pain shot through my hand and wrist. I started to shift my hands a bit to make them more comfortable and the instructor jumped in to tell me that I had to get used to the "correct" grip in order to shoot properly. I tried another shot, and the pain was even worse. I set it down, and that was the end of my first handgun shooting session.

I still do not know specifically what was wrong, but my strong hand thumb joint and wrist were sore for a week. Needless to say, I never went back. Since then I've realized that, for me, exact grip placement requirements should always be taken with a grain of salt, unless I happen to have identical hands as my instructor and am shooting the same gun.

YVK
02-25-2011, 08:46 PM
I know of at least one instructor who would consider such grip position as over-gripping the gun and advocates against it. I don't think that position of middle finger knuckle relative to trigger guard can differentiate bad grip from a good one. Aside from large variance of human hand size, one also needs to consider a difference in gun size too. Where my finger end up on my grip-reduced 1911 will be different from my hand position on Glock 21.

JV_
02-25-2011, 08:48 PM
one also needs to consider a difference in gun size too. Where my finger end up on my grip-reduced 1911 will be different from my hand position on Glock 21.I think that was Max' point. He was trying to convey that you needed a gun sized properly to your hand, and that's one sign of a properly sized gun. I don't recall if it was that specific video, or another, but it was one thing he emphasized.

ToddG
02-25-2011, 09:31 PM
So I just drew my P30 to see where, exactly, my strong hand middle finger knuckle is located when I grip the gun because candidly, I've never given it the slightest bit of thought.

My knuckle is just underneath the right side edge of the trigger guard. This is with a small backstrap and medium right side grip panel. My "shooter's callous" is forward of my knuckle slightly. I'm fairly confident the P30 fits me well.

Furthermore, not everyone gets to choose his pistol. I shot SIGs for years, which have bigger/wider grips than the P30 as I've configured it. What mattered to me was trigger reach, which was adjustable by using a short trigger.

YVK
02-25-2011, 09:42 PM
I think that was Max' point. He was trying to convey that you needed a gun sized properly to your hand, and that's one sign of a properly sized gun. I don't recall if it was that specific video, or another, but it was one thing he emphasized.

I think it is a valid point (properly sized gun) regardless where you like your knuckles. Having said that, and with a full respect to Mr. Michel achievements and knowledge, I don't know if that's the criterion that convinces me. I have one pistol where my grip naturally lands that knuckle over a trigger guard, and that creates some unwanted issues for me. I claim no expertise, just reporting what I've found.

beltjones
02-26-2011, 02:13 AM
Ultimately all that matters is this:

1. Can you reach the trigger such that you can pull it straight back without disrupting the sights?

2. Are you holding the gun in such a way as to reduce muzzle flip as much as reasonably possible, while still holding it in a neutral manner that allows the sights to come to rest in the same place they started?

If you can answer yes to both of the above, your grip is good. It matters not a lick where your knuckle lands. Your grip can always be better (just like golf), but start with good and go from there.

DrewJoseph
02-27-2011, 02:34 PM
Here's a question.

I'm a right handed shooter, but left eye dominant. When I shoot, I can't keep a straight wrist and get a sight picture with my left eye. In other words, my bore isn't aligned with my forearm like Todd Jarrett recommends. So I have to bend my strong hand wrist slightly outward. Is that a big deal?

I can shoot with my right eye fine -- its just not my natural "go to" eye -- so I've been thinking of trying to switch.

- Drew

YVK
02-27-2011, 05:20 PM
Here's a question.

I'm a right handed shooter, but left eye dominant. When I shoot, I can't keep a straight wrist and get a sight picture with my left eye. In other words, my bore isn't aligned with my forearm like Todd Jarrett recommends. So I have to bend my strong hand wrist slightly outward. Is that a big deal?

I can shoot with my right eye fine -- its just not my natural "go to" eye -- so I've been thinking of trying to switch.

- Drew

Can't relate on a personal level, but some cross-dominant shooters I know rotate their head a bit - i.e., in your case, slight head turn to the right, putting your left eye behind rear sight. When I learned about this trick, I started to use it with my weak-hand shooting and it seems to work OK.

TCinVA
02-27-2011, 10:26 PM
Drew: If you can, look for video of Larry Vickers shooting a pistol. He's cross dominant as well, and seems to have adapted quite well. He turns his head to the side to bring the dominant eye in line with the sights. It might work for you as well.

Frank D.
02-28-2011, 01:18 AM
I'm cross-dominant aswell, RH-LE. Some good posts over on Brian Enos' forum re: this. Turning your head is the simplest way to sort your issues out, though you give up some sight on your left side (really not much, you dont have to turn your head very far).

Alot of other people recommend putting a little bit of clear tape over your shooting glasses on your left eye. It takes some tinkering, but when you sort out the kinks the tape will obscure your left-eye vision just enough that it doesn't interfere with your sight picture. Your other eye learns to compensate for this, and you end up right-eye dominant (over a longish time).

I did something similar - when I started shooting I would close my left eye. As I learnt more, I realized that I'd really rather have both eyes open, so I started squinting with my left eye. The squint became less and less, and now - no squint required!

Anyway, give those a try and see what works.

beltjones
02-28-2011, 09:46 AM
If you're shooting Weaver you can tilt your head a bit. If you're shooting isosceles all you need to do is put the gun in front of your dominant eye. Dave Sevigny is cross eye dominant, and it hasn't seemed to effect him in the least.

Frank D.
02-28-2011, 12:18 PM
If you're shooting Weaver you can tilt your head a bit. If you're shooting isosceles all you need to do is put the gun in front of your dominant eye. Dave Sevigny is cross eye dominant, and it hasn't seemed to effect him in the least.

This is a very good point, and kind of what I meant when I mentioned turning your head (I still turn my head slightly, but you put it better - just get the gun infront of your eye).

jthhapkido
02-28-2011, 01:23 PM
Drew said:

When I shoot, I can't keep a straight wrist and get a sight picture with my left eye. In other words, my bore isn't aligned with my forearm like Todd Jarrett recommends.

I think it was spwenger who said that if you are shooting anything resembling isosceles, then you really aren't keeping the bore axis of the firearm in line with your forearm. (You can't.)

He wasn't saying it as an argument against any version of isosceles (modified or not), he was simply mentioning it because so many people teach that grip---then immediately make the person change it when they shoot isosceles. :) Get a good two-handed grip on it, and you'll be fine.

Line up the gun in front of your eye. For most cross-dominant people, turn your head slightly, and it'll work out just fine if you are shooting any version of isosceles. If shooting a Weaver variant---just cant your head a little and it'll line up.

MD7305
02-28-2011, 07:58 PM
Furthermore, not everyone gets to choose his pistol. I shot SIGs for years, which have bigger/wider grips than the P30 as I've configured it. What mattered to me was trigger reach, which was adjustable by using a short trigger.

This is the category i fall into. I'm issued a Sig 229 that I've carried for almost 6 years and until recently I've had no grip issues. I can't stop riding the slide stop lever with my right thumb while using a thumbs forward grip. I've tried placing my right thumb on top of my left thumb "heel" but it seems that my right thumb eventually finds its way back onto the slide stop lever. It's frustrating and probably occurs on 1/3 of my slidelocks (or lack there of). I've tried to practice repetitve emergency reload drills and concentrating on my thumb placement and grip but I'm struggling. When I was carrying a G19 off duty I never had an issue but I believe constant practice with the G19 vs. my p229 created a training scar that is impacting my 229 grip. Anyone have any suggestions?

ToddG
02-28-2011, 08:05 PM
Doughnut -- Slow down. You're going the right way by actively changing your SH thumb position. You just need to practice at a pace where you can guarantee you're getting and maintaining that grip from shot to shot. It will become habit quickly enough. Trust me, I've been there!

MD7305
02-28-2011, 08:14 PM
I agree, slowing the pace and focusing a bit more would help. When using a thumbs forward grip is it correct to stack the thumbs or should the right thumb lay against the gun? I imagine its subjective to the gun/shooter.

DrewJoseph
02-28-2011, 08:25 PM
Thanks guys.

- Drew

Rverdi
02-28-2011, 09:03 PM
Doughnut,
You are far from the first person to experience that issue with SIG's but it can be overcome. Many pistols have different issues and they can all be dealt with. When I began taking serious pistol classes I was shooting a Beretta and whenever I started cranking I would push up the slide stop and lock the slide back during a string of fire. Once someone diagnosed it, I changed my SH thumb position and eventually cleared it.
When transitioned to SIG's I had the same issue you do and dealt with it the same way.
Todd's right on, slow down, make your new thumb position part of your conscious training regimen and repeat it until you do subconsciously, which is, incidentally, how we learn every new skill.
Conscious application+repetition=subconscious execution

LittleLebowski
02-28-2011, 09:16 PM
Conscious application+repetition=subconscious execution

That is worth repeating. Well said.

x-man
03-01-2011, 10:04 AM
I have to say my grip is less than perfect more often than not. But once the grip is right, everything in shooting is significantly easier. Gun is rock solid/stable, trigger pull is always straight back no matter the speed, split time is faster, sights are immediately back to where they were right after recoil, little difference in recoil recovery time between 9 and .45... It's just a wonderful feeling. I just hope it happens all the time.

Everyone grips the gun differently so strictly following someone's advice position by position may not a good idea. I just make sure fundamental rules (based on physics) of gripping handguns are achieved such as high grip, maximum contact surface from both hands, center of web on center of back strap, stronger weak hand grip, firm grip with flexible trigger finger on strong hand, good trigger finger placement, etc.

One thing I noticed is that my gun can tell me how to grip it better when it fires, or maybe because I can get feedback from recoil to make little adjustment. I often pick up the pace after a couple of shots (usually after two shots on the first target). That's a clear indication that I have to get my initial grip right.

Ronin
03-04-2011, 09:09 AM
I've had the same problem as Doughnut, I'm issued a S&W M&P40 with external safety and I compete with a Glock 17 in IPSC. When I draw my Glock my thumb instinctively looks for something to rest on; the slide stop. This usually results in me not getting lock back stoppages.

MD7305
03-11-2011, 10:59 AM
Over the last week with two trips to the range and lots of dryfire I think I managed to point myself in the right direction of fixing my grip issue of riding the slide lock lever. The advice I got on this thread helped me "look" at what I was doing. I found trying to be too fast was giving me a crappy grip on my holstered gun and by the time I had my sights in my line of sight I had thumbs on levers and a grip that looked scary. This may sound silly but in front of a mirror I concentrated on finding a good grip with my hands positioned correctly. Then I made note of various points of index that I could use to tell me if my grip was situated correctly. I concentrated on what the grip felt like and what fingers were touching different parts of the pistol. I practiced finiding that grip from the holster (slowly) and it's becoming natural with more and more practice. On the range I found my control of the pistol has greatly improved and the psitol stays flat under recoil. I thought I previously understood grip but it just goes to show that there's always room for learning and improvement.