Grip angle, index, and switching guns

[Clusterfrack]

This thread is for discussion of

1. Shooting an unfamiliar gun with a different grip angle than you primarily use
2. How the unfamiliar grip angle affects vertical index
3. Whether it’s better to have a high or low index error

My primary handguns are CZs, with a fairly angled grip. I’ve spent so much time with a CZ in my hands that automatic sight alignment is a given unless my upper body is in a really odd position.

Glocks with very angled grips index well for me, with an occasional and slightly high bias that is quickly corrected.

Sigs and Berettas feel weird with their vertical grips, and it’s no surprise that they index low. But I can see the error and often correct it at the end of the draw stroke.

I had the opportunity to play with a Steyr M9 Bluegun last weekend, and it felt really odd. The grip is steeply angled, and I found the index confusing, and difficult to correct.

So, here’s my question to get this thread started: is it easier to shoot guns with a more or less vertical grip than you’re used to? Or maybe it doesn’t matter?

[feudist]

I prefer the gun to point higher, that way I see the front sight and can adjust quickly if needed. Ayoob call that "shooting out of the notch" and uses it for speed.

I have my duty Glock 19 set up with a Grip Force Adapter and my spare is without. The difference the GFA makes places the front sight base exactly at the top

of the rear sight notch.

I didn't realize that Glocks pointed high for me until I installed a RMR. Then it showed up plain as day.

[ASH556]

I've got so many reps on Glocks that my natural grip and index comes up inline, which means Berettas, Sigs, M&P's, and others come up low. This is a panicky feeling for me. I'd much rather have the sight up so I could see it and drive it down. Coming up naturally low and having to drive up (as with a Beretta) is more of a challenge I believe because you can't see it initially and it tends towards over-correction in the opposite direction and then final correction. Oddly I don't have this problem with a 1911, which seems to be the grip angle so many chase.

[revchuck38]

Clusterfrack - Do the P series CZs have a different grip angle than the 75s? I have no problem going CZ-75 to M&P to PX4 to Walther P99c to 1911, at least in terms of grip angle.

I had a Steyr M40 and agree that it’s pretty radically angled. My Ruger MKII is too, but it’s my old bullseye gun and is rarely shot two-handed or quickly.

[JHC]

This thread is for discussion of

1. Shooting an unfamiliar gun with a different grip angle than you primarily use
2. How the unfamiliar grip angle affects vertical index
3. Whether it’s better to have a high or low index error

My primary handguns are CZs, with a fairly angled grip. I’ve spent so much time with a CZ in my hands that automatic sight alignment is a given unless my upper body is in a really odd position.

Glocks with very angled grips index well for me, with an occasional and slightly high bias that is quickly corrected.

Sigs and Berettas feel weird with their vertical grips, and it’s no surprise that they index low. But I can see the error and often correct it at the end of the draw stroke.

I had the opportunity to play with a Steyr M9 Bluegun last weekend, and it was really weird. The grip is very angled, and I found the index confusing, and difficult to correct.

So, here’s my question to get this thread started: is it easier to shoot guns with a more or less vertical grip than you’re used to? Or maybe it doesn’t matter?


I have a bit of experience with this over the last few years and it's "my truth" ;)

For me it's mixing Glocks and 1911s. I will not give up one for the other in total. Won't do it.

I've seen this pattern over and over. If I shoot 1911s at a range session first and then switch to Glocks, I will hit high on any speed oriented drill sure as shit for several repetitions. Without fail. Then after awhile I'll acclimate and stop that.

BUT, if I shoot the Glocks first, and then switch over to 1911s, I never see an unconscious issue of index or hits or anything.

I think that is sort of peculiar. But that would suggest more vertical grip is more forgiving?

[Clusterfrack]

Clusterfrack - Do the P series CZs have a different grip angle than the 75s? I have no problem going CZ-75 to M&P to PX4 to Walther P99c to 1911, at least in terms of grip angle.

I had a Steyr M40 and agree that it’s pretty radically angled. My River MKII is too, but it’s my old bullseye gun and is rarely shot two-handed or quickly.

I don't own any of the older gen CZs, but they do feel different than a P-07 or Shadow2 in my hands. The shape of the curve under the beavertail and position of the hump make the P-07 and Shadow2 feel more on the Glock side of grip angle spectrum and very unlike a 1911. I think hand size plays a role as well. I wear Med or Small Mechanix gloves.

[Doc_Glock]

BUT, if I shoot the Glocks first, and then switch over to 1911s, I never see an unconscious issue of index or hits or anything.

I think that is sort of peculiar. But that would suggest more vertical grip is more forgiving?

Interesting. In dry fire of various guns, which I like to do a decent amount of, I notice occasionally the Glock coming up high after shooting something else, but concur that the others rarely come up low. Either one corrects quickly.

I find small revolvers and Glock index almost identically for me for some reason.

As a preference I don't mind the grip angle on Sigs so much as the how high the slide seems above my hand compared to a Glock, CZ or Steyr. Height over Bore on a Sig 22X and a Beretta 92 are identical, but the Beretta "feels" much lower to me. Perhaps it has to do with how high I can get my hand on the back? Don't know but the Sigs annoy me and the Beretta doesn't.

[BN]

I started seriously shooting pistols in the 1970s with 1911s because Jeff Cooper said so. I learned high thumb, riding the safety. When Glocks came out I started shooting them some, even though they were ugly. Lots of bullets. The Glocks pointed a little high, but it wasn't much of a problem. I eventually seldom shot 1911s and concentrated on Glocks. The whole time I was also switching back and forth with S&W revolvers.

There are several pistols I simply can't shoot because of the high thumb. Various controls fall right below my thumb and I activate them at inopportune times. Sigs etc.

Now I have this really nice Beretta PX4CC with a Langdon trigger. I can get off the first shot to POA OK but the pistol returns from recoil with the sights pointing very low. I've tried building up the rear of the grip to offset it but without success. It's a safe queen that I bring out every so often to see if anything has changed and put it back in the safe.

Now I can pretty much switch back and forth between 1911s, Glocks, CZ75s and S&W revolvers with no problem.

[MVS]

Going through this right now. I have been mostly a Glock guy since about 95. This past January I bought a Walther Q5 SF and since then have been doing all my dry work, and most of my practice and competing with that. It was so different from my Glocks that I shelved my G17 (match gun) G19 (main carry), and G43 (work, NPE)and started carrying a 365XL because for me it indexes the same as the Walther. Well today I just shipped the Walther back for repairs and am in a quandary. My Glocks now point high, (which is better than low IMO) so do I return to Glocks all in? It will require a ton of dry work to get the index back, then what? Switch back to the Walther and Sig when the Walther comes back?

[Caballoflaco]

Going through this right now. I have been mostly a Glock guy since about 95. This past January I bought a Walther Q5 SF and since then have been doing all my dry work, and most of my practice and competing with that. It was so different from my Glocks that I shelved my G17 (match gun) G19 (main carry), and G43 (work, NPE)and started carrying a 365XL because for me it indexes the same as the Walther. Well today I just shipped the Walther back for repairs and am in a quandary. My Glocks now point high, (which is better than low IMO) so do I return to Glocks all in? It will require a ton of dry work to get the index back, then what? Switch back to the Walther and Sig when the Walther comes back?

I bet it won’t take as much work as you think to get that glock index back. The neural pathways are there, they just haven’t been used in a while. In my experience that kind of stuff doesn’t get deleted completely.

That includes not just guns, but motorcycles, bows, bicycles, tools, cars etc. If you have a lot of experience with something it might feel strange going back to it after a period of using something else, but the re-learning curve has always been much shorter for me.

[backtrail540]

I just had a similar conversation with a friend at the range recently. Here are my current thoughts, as someone who has gun ADD and switches every few years give or take and never passes up an opportunity to shoot something new.

With irons I pick them up as soon as they enter my eyeline and will correct for final alignment before final extension. I generally find something presenting high to be better as dropping the sight a bit from high to low is natural in the motion of locking my wrists as opposed to bringing the sights back up but neither is much of a detriment until I am pushing to the edge of my ability and index has a disproportionate importance for the given target. I find that when a gun presents low with irons that the front sight is still within the notch generally and is an easy visual misalignment to correct, same as being high. If i had to choose I'd carry a glock that points high while messing with other platforms regularly as I find the hight to low correction more natural to correct, as mentioned above, and also that shooting mistakes (often anticipation for me) tend to pull my shots low which works out fairly well when presenting high as opposed to a gun already presenting lower than intended and then shooting even lower due to the mistake.

For RDS guns, I feel the same way, but even more so. Because the dot doesn't appear as early in the presentation and there is no visual guidance to be able to correct until late in the extension, I much prefer the gun to present high since the dot will drop from the top of the window down and you simply can keep that motion until the dot enters the window and then final upon alignment. With a gun that presents lower than your current index, the dot may be below the window and the expectancy of the dot coming from the top of the window causes me to push forward expecting it to drop in and when it doesn't I get a sense of panic etc...despite the solution being the same as irons ala bring the muzzle back up, the lack of visual reference of the dot( vs the front sight) brings more doubt. Am I presenting low or is the dot broke? Am I off left of right? While my index is very rarely a lateral issue it is still something that goes through my mind and the solution is slightly muddied as compared to irons where you have a better visual driver. So again, if I were inclined to play with various platforms but wanted to carry a single gun it would be carry a glock that presents high in comparison to whatever I"m putting work into and the dot will still drop from the top of the window, only slightly later but will reliably come from that spot as opposed to being low below the window when in the reverse situation.

Recently I ran a set of dotted glocks for two range sessions (43x with swampfox one session and a 45/pmm comp/holosun on another) and while they both presented high I never lost the dot, it simply appeared very slightly later with a bit more forward engagement of my wrists and I shot as good or better on many of the drills I am tracking. I prefer that to the other end of the problem, as of now.