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Irfan
03-22-2011, 09:50 AM
I live in Europe (Bosnia & Herzegovina) and most of my life I’ve been shooting only 9mms, Glocks, Berettas and CZs and I don’t have any experience with the 1911s. I’ve had a 1st gen Glock 17, a 3rd gen Glock 19, a Beretta 92FS Inox (which is my father’s pistol now). Than I got myself two CZ85B which I really like, because of its steel frame, excellent ergonomics, cocked & locked carry condition etc. But Todd Louis Green has really influenced me with his article “Zed is not your friend” and he personally advised me to get either G17 or a G19 if I want the most reliable and durable pistol because I cannot have a ton of them and because of some very restrictive laws we have here and also “my budget” doesn’t allow me to buy everything I want. So I replaced one of my CZs with a new 3rd gen Glock 17 last year. Thanks Todd! :)

Here I am with my G17:

http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k607/irfanphotos2/IrfanGlock.jpg

I really do like both Glocks and CZs and also Berettas 92. Recently I’ve been thinking about purchasing a 1911 and I think an Ed Brown 1911 would be the perfect choice as it is a high quality 1911. But before I make this “expensive” step I have to ask you guys some questions:

1. When you want to replace a part in your Ed Brown can you just put the new part in or you have to fit the part in and “tune it up” somehow to make the pistol work reliably? Is that the case with all 1911s with the Smith & Wesson 1911s which can be found in Bosnia? Also what about the SIG 1911? That new “scorpion” looks really ‘tactical’. 

2. How many rounds should I expect to fire before I need to replace something (If I buy a Kobra Carry for example)? I am talking here about malfunctions. When will my pistol start to jam (If I just clean it and oil it regularly), 5000 rounds, 10 000 rounds?

3. Will any 1911 offer me more “durability/reliability” then my CZ85B? (I speak about the CZ75 design here in general) Yeah I know the polymer pistols work, but “just in case” I want to have a classic pistol which I can depend on. (If those “black evil guns” just crack or biodegrade over time) :)

Thanks for your time and answers!

Kyle Reese
03-22-2011, 10:02 AM
Hi Irfan,
What are your choices regarding 1911's in BiH, aside from S&W and Sig? Also, how much are you willing to spend?

As for reliability, it will depend on several factors:

Magazines
Ammunition selection
Lube

I've owned a 1911 in the past (Kimber Custom Classic, circa 2000 to about 2005) and found that I much prefered my Glock 17 at the end of the day in terms of reliability, weight and other factors.

It's almost impossible to say as to when a 1911 style pistol will malfunction, as it depends on many factors. You might buy one that won't run correctly out of the box, or you might get one that will run reliably for ____ number of rounds.

Sorry if this post doesn't really help, I'm sure one of our resident 1911 shooters will chime in.

Good luck to you.

JV_
03-22-2011, 10:10 AM
[content removed]
GermanSynergy's post covers it.

willowofwisp
03-22-2011, 11:55 AM
Hilton Yam has several articles on the 1911 check out 10-8 performance.

SecondsCount
03-22-2011, 02:02 PM
I agree with a lot of what German Synergy said as well.

The big issue with a 1911 is that it is not built to an exact specification. Ed Brown builds them his way, Colt, Les Baer and Springfield, etc. will all build them a little differently. This creates issues when you go to order parts or magazines.

Ed Brown makes quality 1911's, no doubt about it. The only issues I have seen from users has been tight extractor tension out of the box which is another 1911 issue. If you own a 1911 then you should probably learn how to fit and adjust the extractor yourself.

I have run my 1911's to the point where they are very dirty, but never without lube which I will apply about every 5-800 rounds. Not a crazy amount, just a drop on the slide rails, barrel hood, and at the barrel bushing. I replace the recoil spring about every 2-3000 rounds and the mainspring about every 5000.

For magazines, Tripp Cobra Mags and Chip McCormick Power Mags are my choice but like I said, what works in one 1911 may not work in another. Keep the magazines clean and check the feed lips and springs periodically.

Links on Hilton's site:

Users Guide (http://www.10-8performance.com/1911_Users_Guide.html)

Choosing a 1911 for duty use (http://www.10-8performance.com/1911_Duty_Use.html)

The biggest thing I have learned about a 1911 is that if you treat it well, it will treat you well. :cool:

TCinVA
03-22-2011, 02:22 PM
The United States is the home of the 1911 and even here there aren't many people who really understand them well enough to make or maintain them properly.

I doubt the situation is any rosier in Bosnia.

1. That depends on the part you buy and the pistol you buy. Some parts can drop into some guns with no gunsmithing. Other parts in the same gun can require minor fitting. Still others can require major fitting....and "fitting" here refers to intelligently removing material for a proper fit, not just going at a piece of metal with a file. An internal extractor, for instance, needs to be properly fitted to the weapon you put in so that it can be properly tensioned (a separate step) and the extractor's hook needs to be adjusted to properly fit the ammunition you use. If you don't know how to perform these steps, the 1911 is probably not for you.

2. It depends on the pistol you buy, the parts used to make it, and the people who made it. It also depends on the ammo you use and the magazines you use. A good semi-custom 1911 made properly from good parts will need a recoil spring replaced at least every 3,000 rounds (with a stiff 18 pound or 20 pound spring...more frequently if you use a 16 pound spring) to keep the timing of the slide's cycle in spec. The extractor tension should be checked with every recoil spring change to ensure reliable extraction. Magazine springs vary in their lifespan, but they should be checked to ensure they are in proper working order so that they feed reliably.

While it is possible to find a 1911 you can fire 10,000 rounds through with nothing more than cleaning and lubrication, it will be the exception rather than the rule.

3. If you want a pistol you can depend on, buy a 2nd or 3rd generation Glock 17. 1911's require at a minimum that you become your own armorer for the weapon if you intend to keep it running. That generally requires that someone who is competent in the first place teaches you how to do that. We have very few people here in the States who get that right.

FotoTomas
03-22-2011, 03:41 PM
I first learned to love the M1911A1 back in Military Police school at Ft. Gordan GA. That was a long, long time ago. During my military career I was literally issued hundreds of different M1911s. Every time I went on watch I recieved a different pistol from the armory. Every time I trained with or qualified on those arms room specials I had 100% reliability. They were loose and rattled but fired reliably and accuratly to qualify as expert on the Military Police Qualification Course. I have been a big fan of the pistol since then BUT I have yet to find a modern replacement that did not have issues of some sort.

I have owned at least 25 and fired many more different M1911s over the last 40 years. None of them provided me the peace of mind that my GI gun did in the army. Many were excellent but you had to make sure the magazines, ammo, lubrication, tightness and general fit all worked together or you would get issues. I had one SA MilSpec that would work great with the McCormick magazines and crash with the Wilson 47Ds. Another did the opposite. Some would feed anything from my reliable older GI magazines but choke with newer magazines. Others would malfunction repeatedly with ball but function with the Speer flying ashtray. Randal, AMT, Colt, SA, Kimber, Essex, and others went through my hands and all were found wanting for reliability or they were high maintenance to keep reliable. I love the gun but no longer consider it a primary personal defense weapon.

I have been using my current SA MilSpec for occasional carry in this the Centennial year and month of the Military's adoption of the pistol. Even so it is on the block to be sold. My plan is to bite the bullet and buy another GI issue gun at possible scalper prices and stuff it with GI ball ammo in the reliable GI 7 round magazines I still have. This will be predominatly a sentimental walk down memory lane and not a match or self defense pistol.

For off duty carry I use my GLOCKs (26, 19 or 17) or Beretta (92D Centurion) on the belt and a Kahr PM9 or a S&W 638 for the pocket. The 1911 will be my fun gun.

Irfan
03-22-2011, 04:04 PM
Thanks a lot guys, to all of you! :)

GermanSynergy, there is a company named “SHOT” in Zenica (one of towns), and those guys are the official representative of the Smith & Wesson, HS Product from Croatia (XDs) and SIG (USA). They get weapons directly from the States, you can order pretty much anything from these manufactures but you have to wait 4-6 months and guns usually cost 40 to 50% more then they do in the USA! I think I am not ready to pay that much after all especially since the holsters and spare parts are impossible to be found here.

TCinVA, thanks a lot for very detailed explanation. I’ve read many of your posts on m4carbine.net (another great forum!) and also ar15.com. Great job! Who sad you don’t spend enough time on the Internet? :) I may not agree with you 100% on everything you write but I do agree 99% for sure! Your and Todd’s posts are the posts I’m not missing.

I think I’ll stay with what I already have, my G17 and the CZ85B. As I’ve already mentioned my father has a Beretta 92FS Inox which I sometimes shoot. One of the 1911’s problems is its caliber. It may be not the best choice here in Europe. Even 9mm is considered a “BIG” caliber here! I can buy a SIG but an American made one which I don’t believe is the same as the German made ones at least for the time being.

DocGKR
03-22-2011, 04:13 PM
As I have stated before, many of our fathers, grandfathers, and great grandfathers didn't seem to complain about their 1911's failing to "always go bang when needed" at Belleau Wood, Guadalcanal, Monte Cassino, Normandy, Bastogne, Chosin, or Khe San. Perhaps Larry Vickers and Ken Hackathorn are right when they comment on how much more care and concern when into the building of those wartime 1911's... Although it rattled and was heavily worn, the tired old 1944 manufactured M1911A1 I was issued in 1989-1990 went bang every time I pulled the trigger. Keep in mind that the vast majority of USG purchased 1911's were built to a specific TDP and required to run with magazines and ammunition all made to a certain standard. With rare exceptions, 1911's from current civilian vendors do not have to meet any set requirements and are certainly not being inspected by USG auditors during the assembly process like the original USG contract pistols were. Too many companies these days try to take short cuts on parts quality to reach a specific price point; likewise too many fit the pistols too tight in a quest for match accuracy, rather than striving for combat reliability.

Keep in mind I was issued, used, or carried a 1911 daily from when I was commissioned in 1986 to January 2011 when my 1911's were retired in favor of M&P45's. I have been around quite a few 1911's over the past two decades of military and LE duty, including USGI, commercial Colt, SA (Milspec, Loaded, MC Oper, Professional models), Wilson, Kimber, Nighthawk, Les Baer, and Para Ord, as well as custom pistols by folks like Bill Laughridge, Wayne Novak/Joe Bonar, Ed Brown, John Jardine, Hilton Yam, Larry Vickers, and Chuck Rogers. A properly customized 5" steel-frame single-stack 1911 in .45 ACP is a superb, unparalleled choice for the dedicated user willing to spend a significant amount of money to get it properly initially set-up and considerable time to maintain it. It has been my experience that in general 1911 pistols in calibers other than .45 ACP and barrels shorter than 5" induce increasingly greater problems. I personally will not use any 1911 with a Schwartz firing pin safety (like on the Kimber II pistols) as I have seen high numbers of them fail; the Colt Series 80 firing pin safety is the only one I might trust for urban LE use, but they have also been known to fail in harsh environments (particularly surf zone and high dust) so I generally prefer a standard USG style 1911 pistol w/o firing pin safety. However, I personally would not choose to carry most stock or even semi-custom 1911's on duty without making sure they were set-up properly with reliable function, durable parts, and ergonomic execution. I firmly believe that if you want a 1911 for serious use, the minimum level of quality for a duty/carry weapon is the SA Pro model (either PC9111 or PC9111LR if you want a light rail); if you’re not willing to invest that much into the weapon system, don't get a 1911...

As has been stated before by others of greater wit than I, if you are a gentleman with a touch of gray in your hair and you were raised on 1911's, then by all means keep using them. However, as much as I love 1911's, for someone new to the game there is no way I can in good conscience recommend starting down the 1911 path when there are currently equally efficacious duty weapons that are much easier to service and that are far more cost effective. For folks who want a .45 ACP pistol, but don't want to invest the funds and effort into getting a good 1911, they would be better served with the S&W M&P45, HK45c, or even a G21sf. For the price of one high quality 1911, you can purchase an M&P45 w/Apex Duty Kit, 1000+ rounds of ammunition, and a good pistol training course.

An even better option, unless you get free .45 ACP ammo or live in an anal retentive locale that illogically restricts magazine capacity, is to get yourself a 9 mm Glock, M&P9/M&P9c, or HK P30 and be done with it. Then you can forget about hardware and focus on what is truly important--training, practice, and mindset.

Irfan
03-22-2011, 04:55 PM
FotoTomas, great thing you are also here! I’ve been reading your posts on berettaforum.net for years!
DocGKR, thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience. I’ve been reading your excellent posts on m4carbine.net as well.

JFK
03-28-2011, 12:58 PM
I will echo what DocGKR said.

I exclusively carry 1911's and choose to because of the fact that I am left handed and can operate the 1911 with ease. I also like the conceivability of the single stack.

That being said it is a platform that requires you to be on top of it. The springs need to be changed more often then in modern designed pistols, a mismatch in tolerance will cause all sorts of heart ache, and one that is built wrong will just never work right without the help of a master smith. It does require you to pay attention to wear and maintenance much more than a modern tupperwear gun.

I would suggest if you still decide to buy one from Brown spend a little extra and have the common parts that break and wear fitted and tuned. (extractor, maybe extra bushing, recoil plug, etc.) If you do not want to do that a Springfield will allow you to get replacements with less "fitting" required on the semi-customs. I would stay away from the Schwarts too, just personal preference.

From your post you sound well read on the matter and will be able adapt to the nuances well. But if parts and smiths are hard to come by it might be something you take into your decision.

benji40
03-29-2011, 07:07 AM
I've shot Springfields for years, never had a hiccup. They are easy to maintain, easy to shoot. I don't have a G17 anymore but will never be without a 1911. I have never understood how the 1911 got a rep for so much bad mojo. Watch the frame for wear and get the book by Kuhnhausen to know what to look for. I like Wilson 47D mags but have heard great things about the Tripps. 45s are lower pressure rounds than 9mm so that helps with the life issue. Stay safe.

mnealtx
03-29-2011, 08:11 AM
I have never understood how the 1911 got a rep for so much bad mojo.

Because they *are* an enthusiast's gun. Many of the replacement parts are not as 'drop in' as claimed but require some extent of hand fitting - extractors and firing pin stops come to mind.

That's not to claim that *only* a smith can do it, but it *does* require more dedication, knowledge and skill on the part of the user to be able to do so.

Irfan
03-30-2011, 01:00 PM
I could ask all those who like the 1911 design why don’t you just get yourself a CZ-75/85??? It’s a lighter weight pistol (in compartment with a steel frame 1911), has also excellent ergonomics, the similar controls, it’s just a little smaller, holds twice as many rounds, and is probably at least as reliable as the 1911 if not more, and if anything breaks just replace the broken part without any fitting needed???

BigT
03-30-2011, 01:05 PM
The CZ doesn't shoot like a 1911. The way a properly set up 1911 shoots is IMHO why people put up with the issues it presents.

The CZ doesn't offer that shootability while not being as reliable or durable as a modern polymer pistol.

JFK
03-30-2011, 01:13 PM
The CZ doesn't shoot like a 1911. The way a properly set up 1911 shoots is IMHO why people put up with the issues it presents.

The CZ doesn't offer that shootability while not being as reliable or durable as a modern polymer pistol.

http://pistol-training.com/archives/3218

Irfan
03-30-2011, 03:45 PM
http://pistol-training.com/archives/3218

Yes, but how does that differ from this: :D
http://pistol-training.com/archives/4384

JFK
03-30-2011, 03:50 PM
Totally correct post. Especially this part.

"Yes, you can get a 1911 that runs and you can keep it running. The operative word is “you.” There is a lot more you need to do when choosing the gun, running the gun, and maintaining the gun than if you bought a (Beretta Glock HK SIG S&W). That doesn’t make the 1911 a bad gun. But it does make it a hobbyist’s gun."