Beretta 92 Stovepipe malfunctions

[GyroF-16]

The gun in question is a LTT Elite 92 with 15,000 rounds through it.
The recoil spring has been replaced every 5,000 rds, the last time with an LTT 12.5# spring (which now has 4000 rds on it).

3 times in the last 315 rds, I’ve experienced failure to fully eject (stovepipe) malfunctions. In each case, the slide caught the back (primer end) of the case between the breachface and the barrel, with the next round on the way into the chamber.

This didn’t happen at all for the first 10,000 rds through the gun. It’s happened a few times in the last 5,000, and 3 times in the last 315 (all during IDPA matches, 2 in Nationals). All with low-ish velocity (850-900 ft/s), heavy (147-150 gr) bullets (the same loads it’s fired since new).

One of the last 3 was with a slightly dirty gun (400 rds fired since last cleaning), and the last two in the first 200 rds after cleaning. I took a look at the extractor during that cleaning, and it didn’t appear damaged, nor to have crud under the extractor claw.

Any ideas on what might be causing this? Too light a recoil spring? Too heavy? Worn-out extractor spring (it’s original)? Damaged ejector?
I’ve looked at all the relevant parts and can’t see anything that appears damaged, but I’m not really sure what I’m looking for…

I’d appreciate any advice and input. It’s not a crisis yet, but having an average of 1 stovepipe per 100 rds during matches is no longer a reliable match gun.

[Willard]

Mag spring issue? Maybe recoil spring out running magazine spring? Have you isolated which mag(s) it occurs with? Is it generally at the last few rounds in the mag?

[shootist26]

Have you physically removed the extractor and checked for crud packing into the extractor channel?

[Hambo]

Send up the pizza signal: Les Pepperoni

[Oldherkpilot]

I'd bet on a worn extractor hook or possibly the spring. Were these by chance aluminum cased cartridges that were hanging up?

[Suvorov]

Another vote for changing out the extractor and spring plus cleaning the extractor channel.

[Ivantheterrible]

Yes, the extractor channel can get really cruddy and cause malfunctions. Easy enough to change extractor spring while you have it out. After removing the extractor pin, you may want to re-stake it. I've had mine to back out on me when I didn't stake it after removing.

[GyroF-16]

Re: mag springs: I can’t rule this out, and at least 2 of the last 3 stovepipes occurred on the first mag of a stage, so I can narrow it down to 4 mags in my inventory. I can shoot my next practice session exclusively with those mags to further narrow it down. But I’m not able to visualize how a weak mag spring would start to chamber the next round, only to be stopped by an empty case stovepiped, keeping the slide from going into battery.

Re: extractor: yes, I already have a new extractor, extractor spring, and pin in my cart at MGW. I’m going to have to YouTube how to get the pin out. What’s the best tool for staking after the pin is back in?

Re: casings: it’s all been with Federal brass - my own reloads (147 gr, 900 fps) and Federal Syntech 150 gr.

Re: recoil spring: Would I be correct in assessing that a spring that is too strong might result in the stovepipe malfunction? Since I have a lighter-than-standard spring in there now with 4,000 rounds on it, this would mean I could rule out the recoil spring as a potential issue.

One other potential contributor: I installed a Beretta Match Hammer (designed to decrease trigger take-up before the wall) 1000 rds ago. It seems to me that I’ve had most of the stovepipes since then. While examining the gun last night, I noticed extra “drag” when the underside of the slide is in contact with the top of the hammer. This is after the hammer is cocked, while the slide is cycling further aft.
It seems like more drag than I remember previously, and a bit more than another B92 with an Elite hammer on it.
I’m wondering if the increased resistance I’m feeling could be decreasing slide velocity when moving aft, these decreasing the impact of the ejector on the spent brass - causing occasional stovepipes.

Maybe I should polish down the top of the hammer to reduce this contact with the underside of the slide, and make what little contact that remains cause less drag.

What do you all think?

[Oldherkpilot]

I would think 15k rounds ought to have the hammer pretty smooth by now.

[GyroF-16]

I would think 15k rounds ought to have the hammer pretty smooth by now.

Except that this hammer was installed 1000 rds ago.

[Oldherkpilot]

Except that this hammer was installed 1000 rds ago.

Well, hell, put the old hammer back in! It was perfect with that one!

[GyroF-16]

Well, hell, put the old hammer back in! It was perfect with that one!
Double tap.

[GyroF-16]

Well, hell, put the old hammer back in! It was perfect with that one!

The thought has occurred to me…. But now it’s in the other 92 that my son is using for IDPA. It was part of a Langdon trigger job on my LTT Elite, and I transplanted most of the parts (excluding trigger and sear) into his gun in May. And when we left Nationals on Thursday, he was winning his division and class (the other half of the shooters finish today). So I’d prefer to solve my gun’s issue (and keep the sweet reset/take-up of this new hammer) and keep his gun in its current, upgraded condition.

[Oldherkpilot]

The thought has occurred to me…. But now it’s in the other 92 that my son is using for IDPA. And when we left Nationals on Thursday, he was winning his division and class (the other half of the shooters finish today). So I’d prefer to solve my gun’s issue (and keep the sweet reset/take-up of this new hammer) and keep his gun in its current, upgraded condition.

I was a trapshooter in my youth and trap guns have all sorts of adjustments. I called them "sex guns" because after a bad day the owner would take it home and fuck with it. Ever shoot any trap?😁

[Bergeron]

I called them "sex guns" because after a bad day the owner would take it home and fuck with it. Ever shoot any trap?😁

HA!! Thank you for that phrase, I'll have to use it myself. ;)

The sweet take-up/reset of the new hammer may be offset by the sour FTEs. How about trying a NP3 Langdon hammer?

[Suvorov]

.

Re: extractor: yes, I already have a new extractor, extractor spring, and pin in my cart at MGW. I’m going to have to YouTube how to get the pin out. What’s the best tool for staking after the pin is back in?



I use a fine edged screwdriver. When you punch out the exctractor pin it will kind of push away the staked metal. After you replace the pin, a couple taps with a screwdriver will push that metal back in place well enough to retain the pin.

77599

As for the hammer dragging on the slide - it’s possible I suppose. Do you lube the section of the slide that makes contact with the hammer?

[GyroF-16]

Yes, I generally put a little lube on that part of the slide, but I’ve not noticed it to be all that critical in the past.

That looks like a handy reference to have as I get into doing more-involved maintenance on my 92s.
Do you recommend the Army TM after using it? Or know of options that would be even better?


I use a fine edged screwdriver. When you punch out the exctractor pin it will kind of push away the staked metal. After you replace the pin, a couple taps with a screwdriver will push that metal back in place well enough to retain the pin.

77599

As for the hammer dragging on the slide - it’s possible I suppose. Do you lube the section of the slide that makes contact with the hammer?

[Suvorov]

Yes, I generally put a little lube on that part of the slide, but I’ve not noticed it to be all that critical in the past.

That looks like a handy reference to have as I get into doing more-involved maintenance on my 92s.
Do you recommend the Army TM after using it? Or know of options that would be even better?

It’s pretty useful, especially before Algore invented the internet. That said, I use YouTube videos fairly regularly as well.

Here is a slightly older version of the TM on digits. TM 9-1005-317-23&P (http://www.biggerhammer.net/manuals/m9/M9B.PDF)

[Sal Picante]

Sorry, been away shooting a bunch...
It is almost pointless to focus on "why" this is happening and just accept that once a gun gets to the 15K mark, the gremlins start setting in.
Replacing all the "expendables" - locking blocks, springs, extractors, magazines, firing pins - usually helps resolve the issues.
(If you're putting ~10K through a gun in a year, just switch these items before you take the off season...)

Making sure that your ammunition is clean, loaded consistent - if you're getting inconsistent loads that could have a big effect.
Make sure the gun is clean - don't skimp: take down the entire top end too!
Clean, replace, reassemble, relube.
I'd use some new magazines and test the whole enchilada.
If you can make it through 200 rds without a hiccup, consider it debugged.

[OlongJohnson]

I hate having to stake by deforming the metal in one of the core, basic pieces of the gun. Stake a receiver end plate on an AR. GI-spec castle nut and end plate are dirt cheap, you can easily throw new ones on when you take stuff apart. Staking, unstaking, restaking, and unstaking again, over and over, of the slide itself, in order to accomplish what is going to be a periodic service many times over the life of the gun, just bugs the heck out of me.

[Suvorov]

I hate having to stake by deforming the metal in one of the core, basic pieces of the gun. Stake a receiver end plate on an AR. GI-spec castle nut and end plate are dirt cheap, you can easily throw new ones on when you take stuff apart. Staking, unstaking, restaking, and unstaking again, over and over, of the slide itself, in order to accomplish what is going to be a periodic service many times over the life of the gun, just bugs the heck out of me.

That said I have heard of many people forgoing the re-staking and just driving on or applying a bit of locktite and doing the same. The location of the pin tends to make any walking out very visible to anyone more observant than Joe Biden.

[OlongJohnson]

That said I have heard of many people forgoing the re-staking and just driving on or applying a bit of locktite and doing the same. The location of the pin tends to make any walking out very visible to anyone more observant than Joe Biden.

Yeah, but the fact that Beretta hasn't, at some point between the 1970s and today (I'm assuming the design carried over from something in the 1950s, but haven't read my Beretta history to know that), redesigned that to use a roll or coil pin like everybody else does, is kinda lame. Yeah, TDP blah blah. Maybe the "M9 A4" will get a technology upgrade to 30 years ago in this detail...

[Trooper224]

I'll guarantee the OP just needs to replace his extractor. I've replaced two and they both went between 15-20k rounds. I use a small flathead screwdriver to restake the pin. It's nothing to be concerned about. It takes hardly any force to slightly deform the steel.

[GyroF-16]

I'll guarantee the OP just needs to replace his extractor. I've replaced two and they both went between 15-20k rounds. I use a small flathead screwdriver to restake the pin. It's nothing to be concerned about. It takes hardly any force to slightly deform the steel.

That’s my plan… extractor and spring. it shipped today.