Tough Choice: All purpose, polymer DA/SA pistol ~~~~~~

[4mykaren]

Glock and M&P owner here, but now I want a polymer DA/SA pistol for self defense and target shooting. I rent a .40 caliber H&K USPC and a Beretta Px4 Storm, my LEO friend also let me shoot his P30 V3 and a P2000 in 9mm.

Personally I really don't like the thumb safety and grip of USP compact, so how about the H&K P30 P2000 and Px4 Storm ?? All three pistols feel good in my hand, I prefer Beretta's DA pull than H&K, but everybody says H&K's a little more reliable......

What do you guys think? Appreciate!

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3575/3379015266_fb66edd221.jpg
http://www.centermassfirearms.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/h/e/heckler_koch_p30_.40_s_w_1.jpg
http://guns4u.info/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/p2000-2.jpg

[deeHKman]

I have a P30s v3 9mm and a P30LS v3 9mm. For a range and HD the P30L would be a fine choice.
Or a great HK USP Tactical in which caliber you like..they have the Match trigger! I like .45's and 9mm's. good luck..

[Kyle Reese]

Of your choices, the P30 and P2000 would both be rock solid selections.

I cannot think of any agency that has purchased the PX4 and been pleased with it's reliability.

I'm a huge fan of learning from other people's mistakes, so the PX4 would be off of my list.

[LOKNLOD]

I like the P30 a little better than the P2000 due to ergos (a subjective measure, indeed) but the P2000 will be a little easier to conceal due to shorter grip, although your carry method and body type may mitigate any advantage gained. It's been a while since I shot a friends PX4 but it is not in the same league as either of the HKs, in my opinion.

[MEAT]

I've shot the P2000, P30 & the Beretta, and I liked the P2000 the best out of the 3. I really liked the P2000 V3 decocker position, the mag release and the lack of finger grooves. I'd go with HK either way.

[Dagga Boy]

For SD and target shooting where concealment is not a priority issue, then the P30L or P30 would be my hands down favorite. For daily concealed carry, the P2000 would be a contender as well. Like others, I have yet to see anyone I respect who is carrying a PX4 or endorsing them (who doesn't work for Beretta:cool:).

[Smaug]

The SIG Sauer SP2022 is worth a look.

[LittleLebowski]

Avoid the PX4.

[Josh Runkle]

Glock and M&P owner here, but now I want a polymer DA/SA pistol for self defense and target shooting.

Why DA/SA for self-defense?

[burntorangefan]

For SD and target shooting where concealment is not a priority issue, then the P30L or P30 would be my hands down favorite. For daily concealed carry, the P2000 would be a contender as well. Like others, I have yet to see anyone I respect who is carrying a PX4 or endorsing them (who doesn't work for Beretta:cool:).

+1...I own both HK pistols you mention. I carry the P2000 more than 90% of the time due to its ease of concealment vs the P30. Like the others have said, HK for sure.

[will_1400]

The HKs by a long shot, no pun intended. As I recall ToddG once made mention of PX4s having a tendancy to lock up hard enough to need a mallet to fix the issue.

[ToddG]

If given a choice between a PX4 and a case of herpes, I'd probably flip a coin...

[Josh Runkle]

If given a choice between a PX4 and a case of herpes, I'd probably flip a coin...

HAHAHAHA! Awesome.

[NickA]

If given a choice between a PX4 and a case of herpes, I'd probably flip a coin...

Yikes.
Among your choices the HK's obviously, but as Smaug suggested give the SIG Sp2022 a look. There's a couple of threads floating around here and nobody seems to have a problem with them. Very inexpensive also.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

[ToddG]

If I wanted a decent polymer DA gun at a great price, the P2022 would be my choice.

If I wanted the best polymer DA gun I could get, the P30 would be my choice.

If I wanted the best polymer DA gun that was easy to conceal for someone not willing to put forth the effort with the P30, then a P2000 or P2000SK, obviously.

If I wasn't married to the idea of a polymer frame, I'd also look at the SIG P229.

[Up1911Fan]

My next two "fun gun's" are going to be a Sig SP2022 and an HK P2000. So i'd say one of those.

[Suvorov]

If given a choice between a PX4 and a case of herpes, I'd probably flip a coin...

Is it the rotating barrel that you have issues with or is there something else inherently bad about the pistol :confused:

[ToddG]

The Cougar, which also had a rotating barrel, had various problems not all of which were related to the locking system. That gun eventually reached a point where they didn't want their name on it any more and it's now marketed under their cheaper Stoeger brand.

Many of the same problems were carried through to the PX4, but the locking mechanism was "fixed" just enough to make it extremely sensitive to cleaning and lubrication. As mentioned earlier by will_1400, I once had a group of students from a government agency show up to class with their PX4 and literally use a mallet to smash the guns open when they got too dirty to manipulate by hand. One of the guys in the group had the mallet in his range kit for exactly that purpose.

Like anything else, I have no doubt that someone somewhere has a PX4 that is awesome, runs like a sewing machine built by God Himself, and is capable of shooting around corners. But in my experience the PX4 as a species is inferior to many competing products on the market.

[4mykaren]

If I wanted a decent polymer DA gun at a great price, the P2022 would be my choice.

If I wanted the best polymer DA gun I could get, the P30 would be my choice.

If I wanted the best polymer DA gun that was easy to conceal for someone not willing to put forth the effort with the P30, then a P2000 or P2000SK, obviously.

If I wasn't married to the idea of a polymer frame, I'd also look at the SIG P229.


Thanks Todd! I will get a 9mm P2000 and buy more magazines with flat plate.
Please also recommend a good IWB holster (3-5 o'clock).

[ToddG]

For behind the hip iwb in kydex I'm partial to the CCC Looper. In leather I like the Kramer #3.

[JonInWA]

I'd add my recommendation also for the SIG-Sauer 2022, and to the HK P30/P30L/P2000. If price isn't a consideration, I'd go with the P30/P30L; if it's a major factor, I'd choose the SIG 2022.

For holsters, I recommend Blade-Tech's IWB and Nano IWB; in leather/horsehide, I'll echo Todd's recommendation for a Kramer #3 IWB. They made one (one of their first) for my early 2340, and fit, comfort-wise and operationally is was one of the best IWB holsters I've ever owned-it and the Sigpro were a perfect match, at least for me.

Best, Jon

[JDM]

I am seriously considering a SigPro as a training gun.

[vaglocker]

Todd or Jon,

Any experience with the .40 cal version of the sig 2022?

[DonGlock26]

I'm very happy with my new SP2022 9mm. Recoil is minimal. You can get small, medium, and large grips along with a short or regular trigger. I've shot the SP2340, and the recoil was the same as a p229.

[ToddG]

Any experience with the .40 cal version of the sig 2022?

No extensive first hand experience but quite a few local police departments picked them up and I've heard no complaints.

[JonInWA]

Mine was one of the first production Sigpro 2340s; I believe I got it in 1999. It came with the soon replaced 2-piece magazine basepads-guaranteed to seperate in short order, quickly replaced by Mecgar/SIG with a revised one piece unit, and 2 grips. Mine was in .40, and I either quickly or concurrently got the .357 SIG barrel.

Operationally, it was a flawless gun. At some point, SIG modified the decocker lever's shelf configuration, making it a bit easier to access, although I had no problems with mine as it was.

I traded it at a fairly low round count-I was transitioning to Glocks at the time, and the high bore axis combined with the DA/SA transition was a bit of a hinderance for me (or, more accurately, I never really put in the exclusive dedicated time on the gun to truly master them). I went back and forth between grips, too, never really feeling totally grooved in with either-but neither was bad-I just did better with my Glocks.

Best, Jon

[shootist26]

aside from the rotary barrel issue, is there anything else wrong with the PX4? I am curious as to whether the rotary barrel problems are due to running the gun without lube, much like how an AR15 will start choking at high round counts when dry.

[burntorangefan]

aside from the rotary barrel issue, is there anything else wrong with the PX4? I am curious as to whether the rotary barrel problems are due to running the gun without lube

So Todd's venereal disease toss up wasn't enough to provide clarity? I found it to be cogent AND hilarious...

[ToddG]

aside from the rotary barrel issue, is there anything else wrong with the PX4? I am curious as to whether the rotary barrel problems are due to running the gun without lube, much like how an AR15 will start choking at high round counts when dry.

No, the guns were not run dry. The reality is that the system doesn't lend itself well to any kind of high volume shooting without being cleaned.

I'd throw the question back and ask it this way: What would make you choose the PX4 over a more proven, more popular gun?

[Suvorov]

Has the rotating barrel proven successful in any combat pistol design? I'm old enough to remember the Colt 2000! :eek:

[fixer]

I've got a few PX4 full size and they have all been great performers out of the box. I use one for training purposes and it hasn't had a stoppage in 2500 rds. The other PX4s I have only have between 300-600 rds through them. I find the gun comfortable to shoot and for a full size gun it isn't terrible for carrying.

The Sig Pro is a more economical option, though. However if my income could legitimately support it, I'd look into other DA/SA guns like others have mentioned.

[JonInWA]

Has the rotating barrel proven successful in any combat pistol design? I'm old enough to remember the Colt 2000! :eek:

The Steyr-Hahn and MAB P-15 were two reasonably successful combat pistols utilizing the rotating barrel concept and fielded in relatively large numbers to military organizations. The Steyr-Hahn in particular acquired an excellent reputation as a front-line pistol in WWI, and probably would be more widely known if 1) The Austro-Hungarian Empire had won in WW1; and 2) if it utilized a detachable box magazine instead of an internal one loaded via stripper clip. While exceptionally well made, examples have been noted expereincing tolerance stacking, where a loaded pistol can be inadvertantly fired when manipulating the safety.

Other than perhaps a desire to utilize nation resources (or national chauvinism), I'm not sure what coherent advantages the French adaptation of the single-action, double-column magazine MAP P-15 achieved over, say, the contemporary Mk II/Mk III FN/Browning Hi-Power (which, in one of the supreme ironies of the firearms world, whose design impetus came from a French military initiative proposal/request to FN). The Hi-Power was, by the time the P-15 came about, a well fielded and proven pistol, 7 ounces lighter (32 oz vs 39), and more ergonomic.

Ironically, MAB eventually went out of business, compelling the French to go the foreign route at the end of the day anyhow-with a license-built Beretta 92G and the SIG 2022, with Glock making some inroads in Federal police use.

There was also the Mexican Obregon variation of the M1911, but that was a very limited production gun, representing more of an intesting historical and manufacturing sidenote than being a proven, viable fielded pistol

Best, Jon

[JHC]

This looks like as good a place as any . . . doesn't need it's own thread . . .

Wild pics of a Border Patrolman's P2000 "snapped in half". Sketchy batch of polymer? Hard to say how bad the impact was but the agent does not sound to have been seriously hurt.

http://loadoutroom.com/3817/when-polymer-guns-fail-hk-p2000/

[JV_]

I'm not sure I agree with the author's conclusion that a metal gun would have been better.

[JConn]

Totally the serpas fault, obviously.

[JonInWA]

That incident appears to be a combination of a very unique set of circumstances-an accident combined with leveraging force applied to the holstered gun due to the position of the officer's baton vis-a-vis the gun's receiver on landing.

Other that providing a lesson on equipment positioning on one's duty belt, I'm not sure what else can be derived frorm the incident-certainly not a generalized criticism of polymer-frame guns, or the HK2000 specifically in this incident.

Best, Jon

[JonInWA]

aside from the rotary barrel issue, is there anything else wrong with the PX4? I am curious as to whether the rotary barrel problems are due to running the gun without lube, much like how an AR15 will start choking at high round counts when dry.

All of my personal rotating barrel pistol experience has been derived from my previous (and yes, that's a clue) Beretta 8357 Cougar in .357 SIG. As I've previously discussed with Todd, it was a gun that I really, really wanted to work and like. On it's face, there was much to commend-quality ergonomics (except for some fairly sharp safety levers) strongly resembling the SIG-Sauer P225 (to the point that a Couger would actually fit almost perfectly in P225 holsters), great proportions and handling characteristics, and quality materials used in ther construction. Unfortunately, my personal experiences involved two crucial flaws: One, the barrel's exterior and and slide interior and cam tooth where there was metal-on-metal reciprocation on firing absolutely needed to be run "wet"-and ideally with a non-migrating/non-evaporating lubricant grease, such as TW25B (contrary to factory recommendations that recommended oil only), or there was a risk of barrel seizure due to tolerancing (fine component tolerancing being a Beretta hallmark-perhaps unfortunately regarding the Cougar, and possibly the PX4) and metal expansion due to heating up during firing-especially combined with a lack of lubricant. I personally experienced such a seizure problem during a steel plate match, at approximately the 130 round point, with a maximum of 18 rounds (and more usually 6-12) being fired consecutively in a given match heat, so the gun was hardly being abused.

Second, my .357 SIG chambered 8357 had some significant extraction issues and jams; my understanding is that this had to do with a substandardly designed and performing extractor which was never significantly improved after fielding, at least in the 8357 Cougar.

An additional issue was that the 8357 simply used the .40 S&W caliber 8040's sights, providing an interesting POA/POI situation, instead of fielding the 8357 with a caliber-specific calibrated set of sights.

I personally view the Beretta drop-lock 92 series guns as far more desirable, viable, fielded, and effective as a dependable firearm than their rotating barrel efforts-and, for the purposes of this thread, the SIG 2022 being far superior to the PX4.

Incidentally, when comparing the barrel movement systems between the SIG P-Series guns and the 2340/2009/2022 Sigpro guns, it is apparent that the Sigpro's system is much more derived from the P210's barrel system than that of the P-Series guns, as the Sigpro and the P210 utilize an enclosed kidney-shaped chamber in the lug to control the barrel's movement on slide reciprocation.

Best, Jon

[cdunn]

My next two "fun gun's" are going to be a Sig SP2022 and an HK P2000. So i'd say one of those.

I have a p2000 and i prefer the 2022.a good mention on the p2022 here.http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?5020-Hackathorn-on-1911-s-etc

[lamarbrog]

From the perspective of (it seems) one of the few people that actually like the Beretta 92FS...

The PX4 would not be my choice. One of the primary complaints on the 92FS is the location of the safety/decocker. If you learn the technique (which most people don't know) for using the 92FS safety/deocker it works fantastically. They reshaped the safety/decocker on the PX4 so that the same techniques don't work like they do on the 92FS. Even folks that know how to run a frame-mounted control on a 92FS and don't mind it can't run the PX4 optimally.

I've never been fond of the USP, and it may actually be my least favorite mainstream polymer framed pistol. The design of the magazine release is absolutely ignorant. The bore axis is high, and the slide is heavier than the frame to the point they never balance well. I guess reliability and durability are supposed to be the selling points... but nothing I have seen shows them to be substantially better than the competition.

The P30 isn't too bad. I'd probably pick that one.