View Full Version : Sikh temple shooting
LittleLebowski
08-05-2012, 02:38 PM
I have never met a Sikh that wasn't an excellent human being. My thoughts are with the affected families and survivors.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/05/us/wisconsin-temple-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
JConn
08-05-2012, 02:40 PM
This is a tragedy, and I know it sounds calloused but this is the last thing we need right now.
LittleLebowski
08-05-2012, 02:52 PM
Absolutely, JConn. Sooner or later, one of these cowards is going to have his chickens come home to roost when an armed, trained citizen is there.....
JConn
08-05-2012, 02:54 PM
Then it won't be on the national news.
LittleLebowski
08-05-2012, 02:58 PM
Then it won't be on the national news.
Yup or said citizen will be a "security guard."
Dagga Boy
08-05-2012, 03:04 PM
I have never met a Sikh that wasn't an excellent human being. My thoughts are with the affected families and survivors.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/05/us/wisconsin-temple-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
This mirrors my experience as well. It is also one group where I am surprised the coward who did this didn't get shot by one of the temple members. Good on the officer who dumped the pathetic piece of crap, and my prayers out to the victims and for a speedy recovery to the hero officer.
There is a large population of Sikhs in northern NM... All great people.
Thoughts with the victims and families.
:(
LOKNLOD
08-05-2012, 05:04 PM
News articles aren't mentioning "assault rifle" (that I've seen)...and it took this long in the day to break the story? I wonder what's up. Hate to see more of this, they always seem to occur in groups...
Chris_Carroll
08-05-2012, 05:22 PM
CNN reported two semiautomatic pistols, presumably belonging to the shooter, at the scene.
Just saw a report that NBC news cited Federal law enforcement sources saying the shooter was in tactical gear with a single handgun.
NickA
08-05-2012, 07:24 PM
Any religion that mandates carrying a knife for the protection of yourself or those that need defending is good with me. Thoughts and prayers to those affected.
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Zhurdan
08-05-2012, 07:39 PM
Met a Sikh once at a Magpul class. Seemed like a good guy. Level headed, friendly. Didn't set off my a-hole radar at all.
Prayers to the families affected by this.
NMBigfoot02
08-05-2012, 09:08 PM
Thoughts and prayers for the victims, hopes of hell for the guilty.
I have never met a Sikh that wasn't an excellent human being. My thoughts are with the affected families and survivors.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/05/us/wisconsin-temple-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
+1000. What a scumbag.
Dagga Boy
08-05-2012, 10:16 PM
Met a Sikh once at a Magpul class. Seemed like a good guy. Level headed, friendly. Didn't set off my a-hole radar at all.
Prayers to the families affected by this.
If it was the class Carpenter hosted, he worked with me extensively in the E.P. field and was a great guy. We worked around a lot of very liberal and progressive folks who portray themselves as non-prejudiced globalists who tended to get really nervous and ask a lot of questions about why the "guy with the muslim outfit" was around.
SeriousStudent
08-05-2012, 11:25 PM
Prayers sent that the injured make a full and complete recovery.
The family that lives next to me are Sikh's, and are wonderful neighbors. I do hope a fund for the affected victims of this tragedy is created, I know he and I would both contribute.
I walked next door and talked to Raj about this, his attitude was one of weary sadness. Sikh's have always reminded me of Australian's and Texans. Great friends, fearsome enemies.
From what I understand, they were having a child's birthday party at the temple. I cannot find words to express the loathing I feel for someone that would attack such an event.
Dagga Boy
08-06-2012, 12:29 AM
"Sikh's have always reminded me of Australian's and Texans. Great friends, fearsome enemies." Outstanding an analogy, and mirrors my experience as well.
Like many, I fear that this is a case of some dim wit thinking he is on some mission against Islam. While attacking a mosque would also be tragedy, it just seems to highlight the issues of stereotyping based on appearance.
A noble and courageous tradition: http://www.sikhnet.com/news/sikh-bravery-and-valour-military-history
will_1400
08-06-2012, 12:52 AM
I met a couple Sikhs at DLI when I was still in tech training. Some of the most honorable people you'll ever meet. Also among the fiercest if you choose to be their enemy.
LittleLebowski
08-06-2012, 04:58 AM
We worked around a lot of very liberal and progressive folks who portray themselves as non-prejudiced globalists who tended to get really nervous and ask a lot of questions about why the "guy with the muslim outfit" was around.
See this? This is my "not surprised" face. The same liberals who support "do not fly list/do not ride/do not allow to buy guns lists."
I'm no longer surprised at "liberals" that take away rights.
NETim
08-06-2012, 05:56 AM
See this? This is my "not surprised" face. The same liberals who support "do not fly list/do not ride/do not allow to buy guns lists."
I'm no longer surprised at "liberals" that take away rights.
Already seeing comments blaming talk radio.
I'm beginning to believe that a defining characteristic of liberalism is their amazing ability to project personal insecurity and incompetence onto the rest of society.
Kyle Reese
08-06-2012, 07:15 AM
See this? This is my "not surprised" face. The same liberals who support "do not fly list/do not ride/do not allow to buy guns lists."
I'm no longer surprised at "liberals" that take away rights.
I call them neo fascists, because they seem to be obsessed with controlling others via coercion and big government. These people would support a Mussolini, Lenin or Mao if it meant they could impose their will on others.
Zhurdan
08-06-2012, 08:33 AM
If it was the class Carpenter hosted, he worked with me extensively in the E.P. field and was a great guy. We worked around a lot of very liberal and progressive folks who portray themselves as non-prejudiced globalists who tended to get really nervous and ask a lot of questions about why the "guy with the muslim outfit" was around.
Pueblo?
If so, the only reason I didn't like him was he took the dollar shoot like a boss.:D
ToddG
08-06-2012, 08:57 AM
We worked around a lot of very liberal and progressive folks who portray themselves as non-prejudiced globalists who tended to get really nervous and ask a lot of questions about why the "guy with the muslim outfit" was around.
That is the defining aspect of the liberal. They're happy to talk peace, love, and understanding because they know their political and social rivals will always be around to fix the big problems. They can take the flowery high road because in their hearts they think that when something bad really happens, when the "guy with the muslim outfit" shows up, the cops, soldiers, and self-reliant citizens will be around to protect them.
My wife used to work across the street from the U.S. Capitol. On 9/11 when her building was evacuated, one of her co-workers came to our place because he didn't want to be at his apartment in D.C. If you weren't here, you need to realize that the news was reporting all sorts of (false) chaos in the city that day: the Gannett building was burning down, a car bomb exploded outside of the State Department, roving bands were marching through the streets killing people, etc. So when we all got to the house, the first thing I did was grab the AR and the shotgun and make sure everything was at hand. My wife wanted her gun belt and pistol, too. So this liberal puke, who had repeatedly scolded my wife in the past about owning guns, takes one look at us and says, "Just for today, it's good that you have guns." My wife had to restrain me from kicking him out of the house.
But that's the liberal mentality in a nutshell: guns are bad until we need them, then the people who own them are given a temporary free pass until the scary moment is over. Aggressive policing is bad until someone breaks into their house at two in the morning. A huge military is bad until our country comes under attack. Liberals can bask in self-righteousness because they know when the time comes, the people they've criticized and demonized will do the right thing despite it all. It's no different than the guy who makes fun of his neighbor for keeping food & water for an emergency, or getting a generator for power outages. He'll point and call you paranoid right up until something bad happens... then he'll want you to share your food and water and electricity with him.
I call them neo fascists, because they seem to be obsessed with controlling others via coercion and big government. These people would support a Mussolini, Lenin or Mao if it meant they could impose their will on others.
I don't like to paint folks with a broad brush, even folks with very different political ideas than mine. But after you strip away the veneer of "in the people's best interest," this is what leftist politics boils down to. The most satisfying and honest political conversations I've had with liberals end in one of two ways. On the one hand, they might say something like "good points, I don't have an answer to that, I'm going to have to think about this." These are positively satisfying experiences, I can have a beer with these guys, even if we don't see eye to eye. Yet.
On the other hand, I've engaged with true and honest liberals from time to time. After more or less debate to strip away the sugar coating, they will look me in the eye and say something like "if you insist on taking it that far, then yes, if physical coercion is what it takes to convince people to recycle, it's an easy choice to do what the scientists say will save our children." I can respect these guys, for their intellectual honesty, even as I detest their conclusions. But because of that honesty they're often amenable to further debate, and you can start to show them the fundamental contradiction between their beliefs and the Hobson's choices they would force on folks (e.g., "you can believe anything you want, as long as it's compatible with my beliefs") - and that actually, the liberal agenda is worse than Hobson's choice: Hobson's prospective customers could choose to walk away.
Now to temper our Pride, let's remember that the right is just as guilty of trying to shove their beliefs down people's throats. An apropos tweet by the Chief Asshole at Westboro said the gunman was sent by God. Sometimes I'd rather debate with Democrat about the difference between a virtue and a requirement, than with a Republican about the difference between a sin and a crime...
In any case, none of this does anything to ease the loss of the families and communities involved. I'm glad these folks have each other for support. And I'm impatient to hear about the story of what actually happened as it comes out.
My wife had to restrain me from kicking him out of the house.
Tough dilemma, I would have felt like kicking him out, too, and I don't know if my wife could have dissuaded me. Easy to say in retrospect, but if something similar ever happens to me, I'll try to keep my cool and remember to make him pay rent... by paying for and attending any 2 pistol classes of my choice.
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/08/06/13141505-authorities-name-alleged-gunman-in-wisconsin-sikh-temple-attack?lite
Apparently the brother of the temple president is harping about 'assault weapons', even though the bad guy here (apparently a whackjob neo-Nazi) only used a pistol. The media, of course, just has to mention the expired ban as if it did anything.
Wisconsin has some of the most permissive gun laws in the country and had passed a law in 2011 allowing citizens to carry a concealed weapon.
Jagjit Singh Kaleka, the brother of the president of the temple, who was among the six Sikhs killed, said he had no idea what the motive was for the attack.
"But we know the more assault weapons we distribute the more situations like this we will have," he said. The U.S. had a ban on certain assault weapons but it expired in 2004.
peterb
08-06-2012, 10:05 AM
Now to temper our Pride, let's remember that the right is just as guilty of trying to shove their beliefs down people's throats. An apropos tweet by the Chief Asshole at Westboro said the gunman was sent by God. Sometimes I'd rather debate with Democrat about the difference between a virtue and a requirement, than with a Republican about the difference between a sin and a crime...
So true. I want the folks on the left to stay out of my wallet and gun cabinet, and the folks on the right to stay out of my bedroom and bookcase. Both sides need to learn the concept of "no harm, no foul."
NickA
08-06-2012, 10:16 AM
So true. I want the folks on the left to stay out of my wallet and gun cabinet, and the folks on the right to stay out of my bedroom and bookcase. Both sides need to learn the concept of "no harm, no foul."
Well said. I remarked to my wife that I'm the worst guy for an activist to try and debate on some issues. As long as everyone involved consents, nobody is getting hurt, and you're not trying to take away my rights or someone else's, I mostly just don't care. If it's a legal issue, take it up with the lawmakers and get it changed. If it's a "sin" issue, it's between you and God.
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JConn
08-06-2012, 10:17 AM
It seems like no matter which party is in power our rights are restricted in one way or another. Working together the parties will eventually strip us of all freedoms, if we let them. But back to the shooting, the guy was ex army, they are going to go crazy with this one.
Cool Breeze
08-06-2012, 10:20 AM
Awesome post, Todd.
plus 1
Dagga Boy
08-06-2012, 03:14 PM
"Wisconsin has some of the most permissive gun laws in the country and had passed a law in 2011 allowing citizens to carry a concealed weapon.
Jagjit Singh Kaleka, the brother of the president of the temple, who was among the six Sikhs killed, said he had no idea what the motive was for the attack.
"But we know the more assault weapons we distribute the more situations like this we will have," he said. The U.S. had a ban on certain assault weapons but it expired in 2004."
Kind of strange, because every Sikh I have been around have been very peaceful folks who are very adept at running "assault rifles". The carrying of a knife is significant in their religion, and the modern Sikh's I know have extended the importance of carrying a weapon at all times to include modern firearms.
JConn
08-06-2012, 03:18 PM
"Wisconsin has some of the most permissive gun laws in the country and had passed a law in 2011 allowing citizens to carry a concealed weapon.
Jagjit Singh Kaleka, the brother of the president of the temple, who was among the six Sikhs killed, said he had no idea what the motive was for the attack.
"But we know the more assault weapons we distribute the more situations like this we will have," he said. The U.S. had a ban on certain assault weapons but it expired in 2004."
Kind of strange, because every Sikh I have been around have been very peaceful folks who are very adept at running "assault rifles". The carrying of a knife is significant in their religion, and the modern Sikh's I know have extended the importance of carrying a weapon at all times to include modern firearms.
You know they were hunting and salivating for the first anti gun person they could find. They probably had to interview a bunch of people to find this one.
NickA
08-06-2012, 03:42 PM
Kind of strange, because every Sikh I have been around have been very peaceful folks who are very adept at running "assault rifles". The carrying of a knife is significant in their religion, and the modern Sikh's I know have extended the importance of carrying a weapon at all times to include modern firearms.
Makes sense, as the kirpan (dagger) symbolizes the need to protect those who cannot defend themselves. Every so often a court case will pop up where Sikhs have to fight for their right to wear them in certain places. I'm sure that like a lot of things it's become more symbolic than an actual tool to some though.
ETA : some reports are suggesting that the leader of the temple who was killed may very well have used his knife in the struggle with the shooter. Good on him.
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Makes sense, as the kirpan (dagger) symbolizes the need to protect those who cannot defend themselves. Every so often a court case will pop up where Sikhs have to fight for their right to wear them in certain places. I'm sure that like a lot of things it's become more symbolic than an actual tool to some though.
ETA : some reports are suggesting that the leader of the temple who was killed may very well have used his knife in the struggle with the shooter. Good on him.
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A Sikh I work with said that it's been watered down so far that some non-observant Sikhs simply carry a card with a picture of a dagger in their wallet. He sounded pretty disgusted when he related that little tidbit.
My kid sister who lives up there just told me about local radio interviews of survivors. One of the dead is the temple president/founder. His son interviewed said they would have lost more lives but for his fathers charge of the gunman, knife in hand. His father scuffled with the gunman, while others in the kill zone were able to flee. His father died but they relate that blood trail suggested the possibility his father got a piece of him at least. I hope this is the case.
ford.304
08-07-2012, 06:54 AM
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/08/wade_page_skinhead_music_sikh_temple.php
A few more details. Note that he "reloaded several times." Bet that won't get as much play in the call for a new magazine ban.
A Sikh I work with said that it's been watered down so far that some non-observant Sikhs simply carry a card with a picture of a dagger in their wallet. He sounded pretty disgusted when he related that little tidbit.
The gentleman I referenced apparently grabbed a BUTTER KNIFE in the kitchen. Damn. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/06/sikh-temple-president-hailed-hero-dies-defending-worshipers-from-gunman/
rsa-otc
08-07-2012, 10:24 AM
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/08/wade_page_skinhead_music_sikh_temple.php
A few more details. Note that he "reloaded several times." Bet that won't get as much play in the call for a new magazine ban.
Actually one article I read used it as well as the Gifford & CO shootings to ban semi-auto's altogether. Calling the semi-auto pistol the "Weapon of Choice" for the mass shooter. :mad:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/07/us-usa-wisconsin-shooting-weapon-idUSBRE8760T820120807
NETim
08-07-2012, 10:29 AM
Magazine fed semi-auto handguns have been with us for how many decades now? And only now they have become a problem?
So many can't logically troubleshoot a problem. :mad:
Kyle Reese
08-07-2012, 10:36 AM
Magazine fed semi-auto handguns have been with us for how many decades now? And only now they have become a problem?
So many can't logically troubleshoot a problem. :mad:
It's not about that. It's about pushing an anti-liberty ideology at any cost. The anti's use every tragedy like this to further their agenda. They are absolutely shameless.
It's not about that. It's about pushing an anti-liberty ideology at any cost. The anti's use every tragedy like this to further their agenda. They are absolutely shameless.
The absolute truth.
There isn't decency among them.
I agree with what Todd said.
And honestly, I pray for the families lost, as a very conservative (honestly... most conservatives these days aren't conservative... You kind of have to find how conservative they are, "I'm as pro-gun as they get but... there's no need for (X)" I think one day... eh, I probably won't, but I love how people talk about how conservative they are, right before they say something not conservative. Such as, "I'm as pro-gun as they get, but who needs a Machine Gun?".) christian, I'm sorry to see that happen.
NETim
08-08-2012, 07:03 AM
"We can state with conviction, therefore, that a man's support for absolute government is in direct proportion to the contempt he feels for his country.” ― Alexis de Tocqueville
LOKNLOD
08-08-2012, 01:26 PM
Articles today are saying Page ate a round of his own after taking a shot to the gut from the responding officer. No real shock there...
Interesting quote from the same article at Foxnews.com:
Authorities had previously had said Page was killed with a rifle shot from an Oak Creek police officer after he refused to put down his weapon and fired at the officer. Teresa Carlson, special agent in charge of the FBI in Milwaukee, said investigators reviewed videotape that showed Page died of a self-inflicted gunshot wound to the head after being downed by a shot to the gut.
"The evidence indicates that the second responding officer who shot Page in the stomach, thereby neutralizing the threat - and by the way, I've seen the video, it is an amazing shot," Carlson said. "And thank goodness. Subsequent to that wound, it appears that Page died of a self-inflicted gunshot wound to the head."
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/08/authorities-say-gunman-in-sikh-temple-shot-himself-in-head/
I wonder what was so amazing about the shot? Not that any of us would feel differently, but it is odd to see such enthusiasm over the shot in a quote to the press.
Crazy stuff, I ctrl+C text from the fox site and when I paste it had automatically included the "read more" link...
NickA
08-08-2012, 01:34 PM
The gentleman I referenced apparently grabbed a BUTTER KNIFE in the kitchen. Damn. http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/06/sikh-temple-president-hailed-hero-dies-defending-worshipers-from-gunman/
At least one report now that he did use his dagger:
http://m.cbsnews.com/fullstory.rbml?catid=57488018&feed_id=1&videofeed=null
Not that it matters, but a reminder of how inaccurate early reports can be, per LOKNLOD's post about the shooter killing himself.
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I'm encouraged anytime hearing a gubment official express enthusiasm for a good shot. Like fist bumping it. Maybe it was a long shot delivered into incoming.
Interesting:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/08/us-usa-shooting-shooter-idUSBRE8770X720120808#post
When the police use an AR15 it is called a "squad rifle" or just a "rifle", but when a madman uses one it gets branded an "assault rifle".
At least one report now that he did use his dagger:
http://m.cbsnews.com/fullstory.rbml?catid=57488018&feed_id=1&videofeed=null
Not that it matters, but a reminder of how inaccurate early reports can be, per LOKNLOD's post about the shooter killing himself.
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Thanks Nick!
RoyGBiv
08-20-2012, 12:57 PM
That is the defining aspect of the liberal. They're happy to talk peace, love, and understanding because they know their political and social rivals will always be around to fix the big problems. They can take the flowery high road because in their hearts they think that when something bad really happens, when the "guy with the muslim outfit" shows up, the cops, soldiers, and self-reliant citizens will be around to protect them.
My wife used to work across the street from the U.S. Capitol. On 9/11 when her building was evacuated, one of her co-workers came to our place because he didn't want to be at his apartment in D.C. If you weren't here, you need to realize that the news was reporting all sorts of (false) chaos in the city that day: the Gannett building was burning down, a car bomb exploded outside of the State Department, roving bands were marching through the streets killing people, etc. So when we all got to the house, the first thing I did was grab the AR and the shotgun and make sure everything was at hand. My wife wanted her gun belt and pistol, too. So this liberal puke, who had repeatedly scolded my wife in the past about owning guns, takes one look at us and says, "Just for today, it's good that you have guns." My wife had to restrain me from kicking him out of the house.
But that's the liberal mentality in a nutshell: guns are bad until we need them, then the people who own them are given a temporary free pass until the scary moment is over. Aggressive policing is bad until someone breaks into their house at two in the morning. A huge military is bad until our country comes under attack. Liberals can bask in self-righteousness because they know when the time comes, the people they've criticized and demonized will do the right thing despite it all. It's no different than the guy who makes fun of his neighbor for keeping food & water for an emergency, or getting a generator for power outages. He'll point and call you paranoid right up until something bad happens... then he'll want you to share your food and water and electricity with him.
So I saved this post and have re-read it many times since Todd posted it...
Contemplating how to "fix" this problem. But, how do you un-do a lifetime worth of this kind of thinking.?
They don't see any problem. They don't feel the need to be "fixed".
Looking for flaws here, looking for something to disagree with, looking for something to add to it.
It's exactly perfect (yes... bad English).
Thanks Todd
NickA
08-21-2012, 09:56 AM
Follow up article from FOX :
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/21/temple-massacre-has-some-sikhs-mulling-gun-ownership/?test=latestnews
Mind-boggling that after an event like that some still think waiting for the police is the best plan.
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TC215
11-05-2018, 07:49 PM
Resurrecting this thread from several years ago.
I got to hear Lt. Brian Murphy speak today at a conference. He gave one of the best presentations I’ve heard. He’s a real fighter, for sure. If you ever get a chance to go see him, I highly recommend it.
Here’s the write-up Mas did of his story:
https://americanhandgunner.com/shot-15-times-the-brian-murphy-story/
feudist
11-05-2018, 10:08 PM
Resurrecting this thread from several years ago.
I got to hear Lt. Brian Murphy speak today at a conference. He gave one of the best presentations I’ve heard. He’s a real fighter, for sure. If you ever get a chance to go see him, I highly recommend it.
Here’s the write-up Mas did of his story:
https://americanhandgunner.com/shot-15-times-the-brian-murphy-story/
"You took a bullet for each of us..."
Dang.
ST911
11-05-2018, 10:30 PM
Resurrecting this thread from several years ago.
I got to hear Lt. Brian Murphy speak today at a conference. He gave one of the best presentations I’ve heard. He’s a real fighter, for sure. If you ever get a chance to go see him, I highly recommend it.
Did you get to see the restricted video of his trauma care? Compelling.
Totem Polar
11-06-2018, 01:48 AM
"You took a bullet for each of us..."
Dang.
That was exactly my take on it. Amazing and profound.
TC215
11-06-2018, 08:33 AM
Did you get to see the restricted video of his trauma care? Compelling.
Yes, he showed the video from the back of the patrol car. That got the adrenaline flowing just watching it 6 years later.
Doc_Glock
11-06-2018, 12:55 PM
Resurrecting this thread from several years ago.
I got to hear Lt. Brian Murphy speak today at a conference. He gave one of the best presentations I’ve heard. He’s a real fighter, for sure. If you ever get a chance to go see him, I highly recommend it.
Here’s the write-up @Mas (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=11383) did of his story:
https://americanhandgunner.com/shot-15-times-the-brian-murphy-story/
I heard him recently on the Proarms podcast. May have been an old episode, but his presentation was riveting.
11B10
11-06-2018, 02:34 PM
That is the defining aspect of the liberal. They're happy to talk peace, love, and understanding because they know their political and social rivals will always be around to fix the big problems. They can take the flowery high road because in their hearts they think that when something bad really happens, when the "guy with the muslim outfit" shows up, the cops, soldiers, and self-reliant citizens will be around to protect them.
My wife used to work across the street from the U.S. Capitol. On 9/11 when her building was evacuated, one of her co-workers came to our place because he didn't want to be at his apartment in D.C. If you weren't here, you need to realize that the news was reporting all sorts of (false) chaos in the city that day: the Gannett building was burning down, a car bomb exploded outside of the State Department, roving bands were marching through the streets killing people, etc. So when we all got to the house, the first thing I did was grab the AR and the shotgun and make sure everything was at hand. My wife wanted her gun belt and pistol, too. So this liberal puke, who had repeatedly scolded my wife in the past about owning guns, takes one look at us and says, "Just for today, it's good that you have guns." My wife had to restrain me from kicking him out of the house.
But that's the liberal mentality in a nutshell: guns are bad until we need them, then the people who own them are given a temporary free pass until the scary moment is over. Aggressive policing is bad until someone breaks into their house at two in the morning. A huge military is bad until our country comes under attack. Liberals can bask in self-righteousness because they know when the time comes, the people they've criticized and demonized will do the right thing despite it all. It's no different than the guy who makes fun of his neighbor for keeping food & water for an emergency, or getting a generator for power outages. He'll point and call you paranoid right up until something bad happens... then he'll want you to share your food and water and electricity with him.
I really miss Todd. There's a vacuum here since he passed away. RIP, Todd.
JBhunter45
11-12-2018, 08:36 AM
I heard him recently on the Proarms podcast. May have been an old episode, but his presentation was riveting.
I was there when Gail and Mass recorded that episode during the comeback of the Second Chance Match(now PinShoot) two years ago.
Armor Express (previously Second Chance) was the vest Brian Terry had on during the shooting, and one of their "Saves"
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