Metal guide rod vs polymer...tangible differences?

[shootist26]

How exactly does the guide rod material affect functionality or reliability in a semi-auto pistol? In the Beretta 92 for example, I know a lot of people want to swap the stock polymer guide rod for a steel one. What tangible difference does this make?

[Jameson]

No experience with swapping stuff on a Beretta 92, but on Glock models it's universally viewed as one of the most worthless and potentially harmful 'upgrades' with which you can screw your gun up with.

For Glocks, the fact that the stock guide rod is plastic is 100% meaningless; the guide rod is primarily there to facilitate easy assembly. A Glock works 100% fine with no guide at all, which has been demonstrated several times.

If you're doing it to 'add weight' to the front end, in the the hopes of less muzzle rise in competition and such, then go ahead and try it and see if it works.

If you're doing it to 'increase durability and reliability', then just don't.

[digiadaamore]

No experience with swapping stuff on a Beretta 92, but on Glock models it's universally viewed as one of the most worthless and potentially harmful 'upgrades' with which you can screw your gun up with.

For Glocks, the fact that the stock guide rod is plastic is 100% meaningless; the guide rod is primarily there to facilitate easy assembly. A Glock works 100% fine with no guide at all, which has been demonstrated several times.

If you're doing it to 'add weight' to the front end, in the the hopes of less muzzle rise in competition and such, then go ahead and try it and see if it works.

If you're doing it to 'increase durability and reliability', then just don't.

todd will probably chime in but with beretta. the polymer guide rod is fluted to allow debris a place to go if the gun is clogged up especially sand, and there are situations a metal guide rod can be slightly bent causing the gun to lock up or fail to go into battery polymer can bend

[Packy]

Not a beretta, but the guide rod here broke/melted... made of polymer.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyZxQfIBXDc

[Tamara]

How exactly does the guide rod material affect functionality or reliability in a semi-auto pistol? In the Beretta 92 for example, I know a lot of people want to swap the stock polymer guide rod for a steel one. What tangible difference does this make?

In most cases, all an aftermarket guide rod does is add a minuscule amount of weight... to the bank account of whoever sold you the guide rod. :p

[JonInWA]

I don't think that it makes any difference whatsoever. Glocks for several years have had they're guide rods made of Zytel, reportedly originally at the behest of a Florida LEO that demanded a guide rod sufficient for 1K of continuous firing without losing its structural integrity (why this was a criteria is somewhat beyond me, but hey...); this was subsequently incorporated throughout the entire Glock product line (they're a little stiffer than the previous guide rods and denoted with the number "1" on the back face of the flange which is seated in the barrel lug).

I've never particularly understood how debris could accumulate on the surface of Beretta's original guide rod, or exactly how it was supposedly susceptible to being bent in use, unless Private Schmedlack was prone to dropping a gun whose slide was locked back at slide lock onto a hard surface...but the fluted polymer replacement/current OEM production one certainly works without incident. Several years ago, a www.berettaforum.net member tested one for thousands of rounds with absolutely no incident. I've personally used both, and denoted no operational problems (or differences) with either.

Presumably a polymer one is a bit less expensive to manufacture. I don't see them as decreasing a gun's operational effectiveness or value in the least-providing of course that they're made to specs with a quality polymer.

Best, Jon

[deeHKman]

CZ's have polymer guide rod's..seem's i read along while back going to a metal one would do some harm to the gun. I keep mine as stock as possible. The tungsten add's weight if that is a benefit in a Match or something else i hope someone would chime in i would like to know.

[ToddG]

Barring some compelling reason to the contrary, the recoil guide rod is a part I prefer not to change.

[JodyH]

Not a beretta, but the guide rod here broke/melted... made of polymer.
I was standing in the background while that video was being shot.
About 10 of my magazines were used for the demonstration.
The guide rod melted after 12 minutes of continuous shooting.
The gun continued to function perfectly with the melted rod.
The polymer rod melting is a non-issue unless you're in the habit of shooting >50 15 round magazines in <12 minutes.
What else you don't see in the video is the white ring around the front XS Big-Dot tritium sight melted.
That pistol was HOT.

[Packy]

I was standing in the background while that video was being shot.
About 10 of my magazines were used for the demonstration.
The guide rod melted after 12 minutes of continuous shooting.
The gun continued to function perfectly with the melted rod.
The polymer rod melting is a non-issue unless you're in the habit of shooting >50 15 round magazines in <12 minutes.
What else you don't see in the video is the white ring around the front XS Big-Dot tritium sight melted.
That pistol was HOT.

Awesome!!

Nice to know that you where there Sir.
I bought a glock partly because of that video.

[mrozowjj]

Stick with whatever the factory gave you; they designed it like that for a reason.

[JonInWA]

I was standing in the background while that video was being shot.
About 10 of my magazines were used for the demonstration.
The guide rod melted after 12 minutes of continuous shooting.
The gun continued to function perfectly with the melted rod.
The polymer rod melting is a non-issue unless you're in the habit of shooting >50 15 round magazines in <12 minutes.
What else you don't see in the video is the white ring around the front XS Big-Dot tritium sight melted.
That pistol was HOT.

Jody, I'm curious-was the OEM guide rod one of the newer Zytel ones, or one of the older ones?

Best, Jon

[JodyH]

Jody, I'm curious-was the OEM guide rod one of the newer Zytel ones, or one of the older ones?

Best, Jon
I don't know for sure.
That was mid-2008, so it's probably a '06-'07 vintage Glock 19.

[Tamara]

Not a beretta, but the guide rod here broke/melted... made of polymer.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyZxQfIBXDc

"We had a couple little bobbles... uh, stovepipes... uh, that I'm going to attribute to S&B ammunition..."

Well, duh! Because it was a GLOCK!

If it had been a 1911, it would have been attributed to the crappy antique design of the pistol, and not the fault of the ammunition at all! (Or maybe it was LIMP WRISTING! :D )

[JV_]

Stick with whatever the factory gave you; they designed it like that for a reason.Sometimes that reason is based on the bottom line - not performance.

[digiadaamore]

or exactly how it was supposedly susceptible to being bent in use, unless Private Schmedlack was prone to dropping a gun whose slide was locked back at slide lock onto a hard surface...

well think about it your getting shot at, your sweating muddy maybe some oil or even blood on your hands and you go empty fumble the reload and... a locked back gun hits the street ,sidewalk a rock etc...

[JonInWA]

well think about it your getting shot at, your sweating muddy maybe some oil or even blood on your hands and you go empty fumble the reload and... a locked back gun hits the street ,sidewalk a rock etc...

Yes, that's certainly possible, but I'm more than a tad skeptical. As a former troop leader, I'm much more inclined to believe that said guide rod damage is caused from irresponsible administrative handling than from combat-induced damage. And many of the maladies heaped on the M9 would be reduced by paying more attention to scheduled recoil spring replacement intervals (every 5K rounds) as opposed to switching recoil guide rods, as detailed out by Larry Vickers' Shotgun News article several years ago detailing the abysmal operator, unit, and echelon maintenance practices (or more correctly, the lack thereof) applied to the M9.

That said, I don't have a problem with the polymer guide rod per se-I just think that the military's insistance on them is indicative of misplaced attention directed towards the manufacturer as opposed to emphesizing proper maintenance procedures to the issuing units and operators.

Best, Jon

[digiadaamore]

Yes, that's certainly possible, but I'm more than a tad skeptical. As a former troop leader, I'm much more inclined to believe that said guide rod damage is caused from irresponsible administrative handling than from combat-induced damage. And many of the maladies heaped on the M9 would be reduced by paying more attention to scheduled recoil spring replacement as opposed to switching recoil guide rods, as detailed out by Larry Vickers' Shotgun News article several years ago detailing the abysmal operator, unit, and echelon maintenance practices (or more correctly, the lack thereof) applied to the M9.

That said, I don't have a problem with the polymer guide rod per se-I just think that the military's insistance on them is indicative of misplaced attention directed towards the manufacturer as opposed to emphesizing proper maintenance proceedures the issuing units and operators.

Best, Jon
:cool:
oh absolutely, when was the last good government contract requirement

[Dave J]

[QUOTE=
That said, I don't have a problem with the polymer guide rod per se-I just think that the military's insistance on them is indicative ....[/QUOTE]

FWIW, every USGI M9 I've personally encountered in nearly 20 years of service was equipped with a metal guide rod. I've only seen polymer on the more recent civilian 92's. I won't go so far as to say that there aren't any, especially WRT newer procurement, but any notion of the .mil "insisting" on polymer doesn't exactly ring true to me.

[JonInWA]

I believe that it's a feature on the latest spate(s) of DoD contract guns. I'll try to dig up more specific information if I can find it, (here's a pretty informative, but not absolutely definitive or definitively detailed thread from the www.berettafourm.net: http://berettaforum.net/vb/faq.php?faq=bf_faq_bhandguns#faq_bf_faq_bh_diff; Keep in mind that for the vast, vast majority of units a pistol is a secondary firearm, rarely fired, and thus will have a pretty long service lifespan in most cases. Previous M1911A1 pistols in inventory at least until 1985 (and for most arms rooms, probably until 1990-1991 when the M9 issue began to filter down) were at a minimum 40+ years old (albeit presumably with periodic parts replacements and rebuilds).

My understanding/recollection is that the current crop(s) of DoD contract Berettas feature the polymer guide rods, polymer or polymer-coated triggers, lanyard loops, magazine releases and safety levers. I'm not sure if they have the niched-in backstrap tang or slanted dustcovers adopted for commercial production, or the hex-wrench grip screws.

Best, Jon

[mrozowjj]

Sometimes that reason is based on the bottom line - not performance.

Sure, everything on any pistol is always driven by cost. Unless it starts to present an issue or is always a known problem why bother? Run the gun until it falls apart or stops working correctly and replace parts as necessary.

[JV_]

Sure, everything on any pistol is always driven by cost. Unless it starts to present an issue or is always a known problem why bother? Run the gun until it falls apart or stops working correctly and replace parts as necessary.

I don't disagree with this statement.

I simply don't agree with your previous post about keeping it stock simply because it was "designed" that way. Some things they've done, like moving to plastic triggers, was not a step forward - IMO. Those are not more durable than the previous aluminum ones; yes, I've broken a plastic one. I'm not aware that it's a systemic issue with the new triggers, but I wouldn't run one if I could get my hands on an older metal one.

[JonInWA]

Actually, Beretta has a pretty sweet package available: http://www.berettausa.com/products/beretta-92fs-steel-trigger-spring-trigger-and-d-hammer-spring/. Replacing the polymer-coated hammer on a contemporary 92 will also enable Wolff's Trigger Conversion Unit to be used, replacing the somewhat fragile/limited lifespan trigger return spring...
Heck, you'd usually probably have to pay $25 just for the trigger alone-and then you're getting an OEM D mainspring and the upgraded OEM trigger return spring (although I styill much prefer and recommend the Wolff TCU)...

Best, Jon

[mrozowjj]

I don't disagree with this statement.

I simply don't agree with your previous post about keeping it stock simply because it was "designed" that way. Some things they've done, like moving to plastic triggers, was not a step forward - IMO. Those are not more durable than the previous aluminum ones; yes, I've broken a plastic one. I'm not aware that it's a systemic issue with the new triggers, but I wouldn't run one if I could get my hands on an older metal one.

My original point was not worded well. I mean if the a pistol was originally designed way back in 1978 with a metal guide rod but newer ones were released with a plastic one then you'd have a case for replacing the plastic one with a metal one. If you have a gun that was designed from the get go to have a plastic guide rod, it's always had a plastic guide rod and there is no known problem with it then really what's the point? I mean maybe the designer accounted for the flex in a plastic guide rod and by swapping it with metal you might actually induce errors. I mean the general you not you specifically.