Tactical Accuracy of Polymer-framed Pistols vs. Metal Pistols

[jnc36rcpd]

We've seen any number of videos or read reports of pistols malfunctioning during gunfights. Glocks and other polymer pistols seem to predominate these incidents, but of course, polymer pistols are very prevalent in law enforcement and the CCW world. I will note that most videos probably video LEO's and armed citizens using full-size pistols. (I know that smaller pistols may have issues due to their size.)

While quality polymer pistols will function all day on the square range, are they more prone to failure than metal pistols during the dynamic nature of gunfighting (movement, imperfect grips)?

I'm definitely not a hater of the polymer pistol. I currently carry Glocks, but would be happy with an M&P, polymer HK or Walther, or perhaps even an APX. (Let's not get into SIG 320 issues.)

Thanks and be safe.

[JRB]

We've seen any number of videos or read reports of pistols malfunctioning during gunfights. Glocks and other polymer pistols seem to predominate these incidents, but of course, polymer pistols are very prevalent in law enforcement and the CCW world. I will note that most videos probably video LEO's and armed citizens using full-size pistols. (I know that smaller pistols may have issues due to their size.)

While quality polymer pistols will function all day on the square range, are they more prone to failure than metal pistols during the dynamic nature of gunfighting (movement, imperfect grips)?

I'm definitely not a hater of the polymer pistol. I currently carry Glocks, but would be happy with an M&P, polymer HK or Walther, or perhaps even an APX. (Let's not get into SIG 320 issues.)

Thanks and be safe.

Depends entirely on the specific pistols being compared, not frame material. There's plenty of awesome and highly vetted polymer guns (Glock, S&W M&P, HK, etc) and plenty of absolutely unreliable turds with steel or alloy frames.

Speaking from my own limited perspective, I can't recall a single story, account, or situation I've read about or heard about where a malfunction in a gunfight was in any way affected by the frame material.
I've read a lot about malfunctions caused by sheer chaos that would have likely stopped any pistol, and just straight up weird malfunctions/issues/outcomes that would be difficult to duplicate on even the most elaborate test battery or simulation.

If you trust a gun for your purposes, and you can properly demonstrate safe handling, reliability, and proficiency on a square range or in a training class - that pistol is probably just fine for your needs. If it's chambered in a common defensive round, made by a reputable company known for duty firearms, and carried in a safe and effective holster, that's just that much better.

[paherne]

I think it's a video issue. We never had video when metal-framed pistols were in common police use. Now, almost every police shootout is recorded and the vast majority of police carry polymer-framed pistols. I'm willing to bet that we would have seen interesting things back in the DA revolver days if all cops had BWCs then. "They don't think it be like it is, but it do," Oscar Gamble.

[breakingtime91]

I am under the impression that limp writing a polymer has a more drastic effect on polymer framed gun than metal. A recent video of an officer with a injured hand illustrated this. He still won the day but was racking his slide after each shot for the most part. I limp wrist tested my 229 with just one finger holding the frame and the rest lovely holding it, functioned and ejected well for 10 rounds. I test this because my wife is a new shooter and I worry about her limp writing in an emergency. Glocks wouldn't function. Just my 2 cents

[JCN]

I am under the impression that limp writing a polymer has a more drastic effect on polymer framed gun than metal. A recent video of an officer with a injured hand illustrated this. He still won the day but was racking his slide after each shot for the most part. I limp wrist tested my 229 with just one finger holding the frame and the rest lovely holding it, functioned and ejected well for 10 rounds. I test this because my wife is a new shooter and I worry about her limp writing in an emergency. Glocks wouldn't function. Just my 2 cents

That’s often a Glock RSA sprung for +P ammo issue.

Softer RSA fixes the limp wristing and I’d rather have a battered frame than a single shot pistol.

[Caballoflaco]

I am under the impression that limp writing a polymer has a more drastic effect on polymer framed gun than metal. A recent video of an officer with a injured hand illustrated this. He still won the day but was racking his slide after each shot for the most part. I limp wrist tested my 229 with just one finger holding the frame and the rest lovely holding it, functioned and ejected well for 10 rounds. I test this because my wife is a new shooter and I worry about her limp writing in an emergency. Glocks wouldn't function. Just my 2 cents

FWIW If that’s the event I’m thinking about in San Antonio I read recently that the round he took in his strong hand also broke the trigger guard and damaged the pistol. I imagine that a steel or aluminum frame gun might have suffered similar if not worse problems due to the elasticit deformation of those materials. Ie crimping the mag in the gun and bullets in the magazine.


I’m with paherne on this one, and believe that current autopistols, including plastic guns are the more reliable now than at any time in history, it’s just that shit happens.

ETA: it was in the comments on this break down. So, it might be pure bullshit but has a tone of truth that makes me believe it to be likely.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2Da-IxH9aCQ


Christopher Potts
Hey donut, his name really is pronounced “savage”. He rode with me and my partner on his Proby rides. He’s a solid troop. The gun itself was actually badly damaged, light kit and part of the trigger guard and grip got blown off
Rest of the round his hand caught. I texted him this video. You made his day!
1 month ago

Christopher Potts
@whisperingmists the only issue I have with the breakdowns (donut has the best) is that all the facts of the engagement have not been put out and too many people doing the breakdown speculate on courses or action taken,

Especially when it came to his weapon failure issues, his weapon got FUCKED UP and it’s not mentioned anywhere by the dept

[Hot Sauce]

What in particular makes a gun more prone to limp wristing failures? The weight or the added frame flex?

Are there some polymer-framed pistols that are measurably less prone limp-wristing than others? Has someone done this kind of testing in an organized way?

The other thing we have to note is that limp wristing may not be the sole cause for failures in this context. I've seen enough support thumbs slowing a slide down on a square range, so I'd expect it to happen during sudden draw tactical scenarios as well.

[breakingtime91]

Interesting on the gun being damaged but I am still under the impression that polymer guns have more issues with that sort of thing than heavier framed guns. I know SLG doesn't post anymore but many of us remember him. When I shot with him he carried an issued glock but commented how much more he liked p series sigs because they are inherently more accurate over high round counts than polymer framed guns. Once again all of this is opinion. I think for most people that train and grip the gun hard, you will most likely be good to go

[KevH]

Polymer frame versus metal frame makes no difference. None whatsoever.

Gunfights induce stress and a chemical physiological response like almost nothing else one can imagine.

This dump of adrenaline and cortisol causes people to do wonky things and often these are manifested in weapons malfunctions and other "unique" behaviors. Some of the behavior elements will leave the involved second guessing what they did for years (even if everything else ultimately worked out or seemed seamless to those around them).

As mentioned earlier in this thread, we now have BWC we can watch and critique whereas no one ever would have noticed these oddities in the past (witnesses and the involved are generally hyper-focused during the actual event), especially if the officer prevailed.

[1slow]

A lot of reliability has to do with how the pistol is sprung and ammo used rather than metal vs. plastic.
A steel gun made to the same specs as a plastic frame may cycle better because extra frame weight helps the gun stay more still and let the slide cycle on the frame more robustly.

I seem to remember a thread on HK Pro asking HK Factory service about what gave the least trouble.
USP 45s, HK 45s gave little trouble because the cartridge made up for limp wristing.
Longer P30L 9mm were more sensitive to light ammo and light grip. If you use NATO or +P no issues in my experience.

[GmanVP9]

In for later. You guys are all way more experienced than I am, but from the reading ive done, it seems like polymer is fine. Think of the tons of PD that run them around the world without much issue

[GJM]

I think a Gen 5 with the breech face cut and +P stacks the odds in your favor.

Right off, my wife and I (and there is video of her doing this) tried to induce a stoppage with the new G5 23 barely holding on, support hand only, and couldn’t make it choke.

[camel]

From my un-scientific. But somewhat mechanical knowledge ass. It’s about the whole system. Cartridge,frame,the shooter. People can choke a Benelli by introducing to much strength to the system. I think. If the question is. What gun is going to malfunction the least under the most stress, due to shooter influence, there’s a lot of parameters that won’t be measurable. Maybe that’s why daryl bolke like revolvers so much. The human spins the action.

[BillSWPA]

When I first bought my Glock 26, I was still not fully out from the delusion of revolvers being more reliable than semiautos. I intentionally tried to limp wrist it. The only way I could induce a jam was holding the gun in my weak hand, using my middle finger only to hold the gun, and keeping that finger very unnaturally loose.

There is nothing about polymer that makes it any more susceptible than anything else to limp twisting. If the frame flexed that much, it would not function even when held correctly.


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[camel]

When I first bought my Glock 26, I was still not fully out from the delusion of revolvers being more reliable than semiautos. I intentionally tried to limp wrist it. The only way I could induce a jam was holding the gun in my weak hand, using my middle finger only to hold the gun, and keeping that finger very unnaturally loose.

There is nothing about polymer that makes it any more susceptible than anything else to limp twisting. If the frame flexed that much, it would not function even when held correctly.


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Yes that’s what I was trying to say about people who can choke a benelli. Polymers actually pretty stiff. It’s the other factors that are going to make it choke. Limp wrist or all those test with one finger here or there are meaningless when it comes down to it. For suggestion. If the gun fails because the shooter cannot hang onto the gun. Or the shooter can over power the gun. How is it the guns fault? You can hang on with these crazy tests of what finger was where and what ammo. Guns jam. At the most unfortunate time. Maybe due to lint in a pocket carry unmaintained revolvers wherever.

[BillSWPA]

Yes that’s what I was trying to say about people who can choke a benelli. Polymers actually pretty stiff. It’s the other factors that are going to make it choke. Limp wrist or all those test with one finger here or there are meaningless when it comes down to it.

The only thing the one finger tests show is how far one must deviate from how the gun will actually be used before things start going wrong, recognizing that things might not go perfectly when you really need it.


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[camel]

The only thing the one finger tests show is how far one must deviate from how the gun will actually be used before things start going wrong, recognizing that things might not go perfectly when you really need it.


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Yea. Damage to the hand and a bunch of other things. But as far as metal vs polymer. There’s no difference logically I think.

[camel]

Hell if you get shot in your primary and then switch to you off hand. But bone matter jams the slide. Is it the guns fault.

[MandoWookie]

When I first bought my Glock 26, I was still not fully out from the delusion of revolvers being more reliable than semiautos. I intentionally tried to limp wrist it. The only way I could induce a jam was holding the gun in my weak hand, using my middle finger only to hold the gun, and keeping that finger very unnaturally loose.

There is nothing about polymer that makes it any more susceptible than anything else to limp twisting. If the frame flexed that much, it would not function even when held correctly.


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Wasn't there documented issues with .40 Glocks malfunctioning because of weapon lights attached to the rails? Because it messed with how the frame was supposed to flex?

Similar to the Benelli example, I wonder if some if these witnesses malfs might actually be from something other than limp wristing. Is overgripping a thing that could happen? Maybe adrenaline causing the officer to clamp down so hard it messes with the action cycle? Polymer frames do flex more( watch high-speed footage from Larry Vickers channel), and I wonder if you could crush grip the frame enough to flex it.
It would be something most people couldn't replicate normally.

[KevH]

Wasn't there documented issues with .40 Glocks malfunctioning because of weapon lights attached to the rails? Because it messed with how the frame was supposed to flex?

Similar to the Benelli example, I wonder if some if these witnesses malfs might actually be from something other than limp wristing. Is overgripping a thing that could happen? Maybe adrenaline causing the officer to clamp down so hard it messes with the action cycle? Polymer frames do flex more( watch high-speed footage from Larry Vickers channel), and I wonder if you could crush grip the frame enough to flex it.
It would be something most people couldn't replicate normally.

Gen3 Glocks in 40 S&W were a hot mess once a metal WML was attached (Streamlight TLR's were particularly bad). Yes, it had much to do with frame flex (or lack thereof) and spring rate.

That's a totally separate issue than what the OP is talking about.

[MandoWookie]

Gen3 Glocks in 40 S&W were a hot mess once a metal WML was attached (Streamlight TLR's were particularly bad). Yes, it had much to do with frame flex (or lack thereof) and spring rate.

That's a totally separate issue than what the OP is talking about.

I wonder if it is really. It could be something similar happening in very rare circumstances, but not easily observed or replicated outside of that context.
How was it determined that the WMLs were causing issues, and why wasn't it discovered prior to weapons being issued with those WMLs? I can't recall the particulars.

[Trukinjp13]

My opinion is more of a hammer vs striker,than poly vs steel/aluminum. Most all of the guns that we are comparing against poly striker guns are hammer fired. I believe a hammer gun is more reliable and more susceptible to fire with debris involved.

A lot of the older glocks and different striker guns did choke when limp wristed. I have personally seen it happen multiple times. But that same shooter tried a hk usp and a p226. Neither choked. This is with different people.

There have been some damn good poly hammer guns through the years that have been solid.

I agree the newest iteration of Glocks are solid. I think being better sprung and having tighter lockup and more positive ejection play a big role. Striker guns are still evolving. And now we have so many different designs.

But HAMMER is mo better IMO.


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[HCM]

Wow.

So the thread title talks about tactical accuracy of polymer frames vs metal frames but the OP is all about reliability differences ?

Since we seem to be talking about reliability differences...

This has been discussed here before, maybe in the OIS video thread or various Glock threads.

First eliminate incidents where rounds struck the weapon or the officer's hands. Any gun will be compromised if it, or the shooters hands take a round.

Even excluding hand/gun hits, there seems to be a noticeably higher incidence of malfunctions seen in OIS videos vs on the range.

Now that that is out of the way. Is frame flex in some polymer guns an issue ? Maybe but it's the least of the factors at play here.

So what are the key factors ? I see two.

First, IME heavier guns are both easier to shoot well tend to be less sensitive to grip induced malfunctions. Why? more mass in the frame means more of a stable base for the forces that cycle the pistol. Less mass in the frames means your grip has to provide the stable base for the cycle of operation.

Second, as KevH mentioned there is a lot going on in gunfights and participants rarely stand still. why is that important? Two reasons, IME most LE firearms training involves shooting while remaining stationary and when people used to shooting while remaining stationary start to move they tend to relax their grip on the gun.

I'm not just talking about people relaxing their grip when shooting while moving. I see it when they move then resume shooting while stationary. I've seen this in USPSA and IDPA, Hell, I see it at work in in shooters transitioning from shooting to standing to shooting kneeling in the same spot. For a long time I noticed many shooters would hit standing and start missing when they went to kneeling. I finally figured out they were relaxing their grip. I helped several shooters up their scores simply by having them re-grip the gun after going to kneeling.

Both the mass of the frame, and the distribution of that mass can effect reliability. This is why many agencies now test potential duty guns both with and without WML. The WML induced issues with Gen 3 glocks .40 cals were a some what different situation where frame flex and structural integrity were factors.

[KevH]

I wonder if it is really. It could be something similar happening in very rare circumstances, but not easily observed or replicated outside of that context.
How was it determined that the WMLs were causing issues, and why wasn't it discovered prior to weapons being issued with those WMLs? I can't recall the particulars.

It's not.

Modern Glocks work differently with a dual-captive recoil springs and guns like the P320's and M&P's work off of a steel chassis independent of the polymer frame. The frame still flexes and absorbs some recoil, but it is nothing like the Gen3 40 S&W issues.

To make a really long story short, when Glock chambered guns in 40 S&W in the Gen2 era they essentially took a 9mm and bored out the barrel to .40 caliber. They didn't change anythinge else (recoil spring, magazine springs, etc.). To ensure the larger diameter flat point 40 S&W rounds fed, they also left the back of the chamber heavily beveled. This caused two things. The locking block pins would break as the guns beat themselves to death with the much higher pressured round and the unsupported chamber caused by the bevel would cause reloaded cases or other weak cases to blow hence what was known as a Glock "Kaboom." Towards the end of the Gen2 Glock added a third pin to the locking block and increased the chamber support. They did nothing to change spring rate or add weight to the slide to mitigate the increased pressure (other guns like the H&K USP series have heavier slides in 40 S&W than 9mm). Glock offered an "upgrade" from their Gen2 guns to the new Gen3's for next to nothing back then. The 40 S&W was by far the most popular police cartridge in the late 1990's and early 2000's so everyone "upgraded" to the Gen3 Glock 22 and Glock 23's for duty use when they came out.

When Glock stuck a rail on the dustcover of their guns (Gen3) it was designed to function with their polymer light or the polymer Insight M3/M6. Both of these lights use a pinch hold down plate similar to what a Surefire X300U-A uses today. They don't clamp, they have simple bar pushed up into a slot by a spring to hold the light in place. Since both were made of polymer the both had some flex under recoil.

In 2004 or so, Surefire introduced the X200. This was when WML's really started to take off. The X200 sold like hotcakes and it and the Streamlight TLR started being not only carried, but purchased and issued by departments. And this is when the problems started...

The Surefire X200 (and later X300) are made of metal, and while the way they attach to the rail is similar to the old polymer lights, it is typically much tighter. The Streamlight TLR is even worse as no only is it made of metal, but it has an adjustable screw tightened clamp which can be made really tight.

The dustcover of the 40 S&W Glocks had flexed under recoil and absorbed some of the impact the recoil spring assembly (RSA) could not. This was not a design feature, but an unintended consequence of going to a higher pressure cartridge and using the same RSA. The metal lights made the dustcover stiff and added weight and now could not flex at all and all the recoil had to be absorbed by the RSA. The same RSA that had been used in 9mm Glocks prior to the 40 S&W being introduced. Add to that the fact that most police departments don't keep up on spring maintenance and you had a recipe for disaster.

What many departments found was their Glock 22's would work just fine without a light. The light added the gun's wouldn't function. Take the light off some would function and some would not. What happened was the lights caused the springs to wear out extremely quickly and it would induce failures to feed and failures to eject. The magazine springs also could not keep up with the increased slide velocity. Sometimes you would find a gun that wouldn't work with "practice" ammo, but would run fine with hotter "duty" ammo (like my own departments 155gr JHP's), but those guns would suffer other damage such as cracked locking blocks and locking block pins or broken takedown levers as the hotter ammo functioned the slide, but beat the gun to death.

Glock didn't want to admit there was a problem for a long time and then several "workarounds" came out. None of them really fixed the problem. The Gen4's with their dual captive recoil spring were supposed to fix the issues, but they still occasionally reared their head. The early Gen4 guns went through several RSA and magazine spring changes (very quietly) until they could finally get them to function properly. The true fix was to do what Glock did with the Gen5 Glock 22 and use a heavier slide (and different springs), but now the 40 S&W is essentially dead for LE. The real answer (and what most departments did) was to switch to 9mm, which is what that frame size Glock was originally meant (and sprung) to shoot.

The malfunctions the OP is talking about have nothing to do with polymer frames, but everything to do with adrenaline and cortisol dumps the officers are experiencing in the stress of an actual lethal force encounter. They would screw up a metal framed gun if they were carrying them just as bad. The reason you don't see that in videos is that very few cops carry guns with metal frames anymore. We live in a polymer frame world where Glock is by far the most prolific in LE.

[KevH]

...another thing to add...

The whole limp wristing thing is a total cop-out from Glock. That has been their standard answer to everything when their gun malfunctioned going back to the mid-90's. Why? It's a sleazy way for them to blame the user and keep blame off themself. I heard it all through the late 2000's during the 40 S&W debacle. Never once did it have anything to do with the gun not functioning.

Yeah, a firm grip is better, but go ahead and play with a Glock on the range one day. You can barely hold the damn thing and most of them will function just fine.

I've been an LE armorer since 2003. Never once has a gun repeatedly malfunctioning had anything to do with the user "limp wristing."

Most of the malfunctions in gun fights seen on BWC lately are caused by the user's grip (both dominant and non-dominant hand) interfering with the cycling of the slide or inadvertently contacting the magazine release or slide stop. In the "oh shit" moment they typically don't have a good grip on the gun and are inducing a malfunction.

The best way to deal with it in training is to emphasize proper grip (over and over and over) and to teach clearance drills (ye 'ole tap, rack, bang) until they're second nature. They'll screw it up, but at least they'll know how to fix it quickly.

[Hambo]

Wow.

So the thread title talks about tactical accuracy of polymer frames vs metal frames but the OP is all about reliability differences ?

Since we seem to be talking about reliability differences...


Let's talk about old school, metal frame pistols. There was always somebody who would show up at a training day and start off with malfunctions because their pistol was bone dry. If they had been in an OIS instead of training, they'd have been doing non-stop malfunction drills.

[paherne]

Let's talk about old school, metal frame pistols. There was always somebody who would show up at a training day and start off with malfunctions because their pistol was bone dry. If they had been in an OIS instead of training, they'd have been doing non-stop malfunction drills.

Let's not forget the "Lube Your Slide Or Die!" signs at many agencies who issued Beretta 92Fs! Motor officers seemed to have particular difficulty with this due to the pistols drying out while floating in the breeze.

[P30]

I agree to the statements that the recoil spring has a big influence on the reliability to cycle.

Little anecdote: My P30 never culpably malfunctioned on me in more than 10k shots (failed only 1 time but it was the ammo's fault, primer did not work, also not in another shooter's pistol). Then I took my young cousins to the range, one of them as a first time shooter. I had put a new recoil spring assembly into the P30 and loaded it with ammo having light bullets (115gr). Intention: Lessen the felt recoil for the first time shooter. Guess what happened. He limp wristed and Excalibur failed for the first time (failure to eject or to feed). I jokingly told him not to hold the gun so gay, better hold it like a hammer. At that time, a German national IPSC champion was at the range, he agreed. Then it worked. We had lots of fun that day and of course I taught them beforehand to follow the Cooper rules.

Limp wristing + strong recoil spring + light bullet + light frame = bad preconditions for reliable cycling.

Limp wristing and a too strong recoil spring are worse than a light frame, I assume.

[4RNR]

Interesting on the gun being damaged but I am still under the impression that polymer guns have more issues with that sort of thing than heavier framed guns. I know SLG doesn't post anymore but many of us remember him. When I shot with him he carried an issued glock but commented how much more he liked p series sigs because they are inherently more accurate over high round counts than polymer framed guns. Once again all of this is opinion. I think for most people that train and grip the gun hard, you will most likely be good to go

But that example has nothing to do with reliability.

Accuracy is going to be different for everyone. Hand size, shape, dexterity....

I have a buddy who can turn any rifle into a target rifle. He's just naturally good it doesn't matter if it's an AR, 10/22, AK, Win94 or whatever. He makes it seem like they're all precision sniper rifles. But give him a handgun and at 3 yards he's more likely to shoot himself than the target. No matter what he does it's like having a brand new shooter pick up a handgun for the first time. None of that says anything about reliability of either platform



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[JSGlock34]

https://y.yarn.co/d3bfc825-0405-49a6-8ac8-20458451dcc9_text.gif

[breakingtime91]

Wow.

So the thread title talks about tactical accuracy of polymer frames vs metal frames but the OP is all about reliability differences ?

Since we seem to be talking about reliability differences...

This has been discussed here before, maybe in the OIS video thread or various Glock threads.

First eliminate incidents where rounds struck the weapon or the officer's hands. Any gun will be compromised if it, or the shooters hands take a round.

Even excluding hand/gun hits, there seems to be a noticeably higher incidence of malfunctions seen in OIS videos vs on the range.

Now that that is out of the way. Is frame flex in some polymer guns an issue ? Maybe but it's the least of the factors at play here.

So what are the key factors ? I see two.

First, IME heavier guns are both easier to shoot well tend to be less sensitive to grip induced malfunctions. Why? more mass in the frame means more of a stable base for the forces that cycle the pistol. Less mass in the frames means your grip has to provide the stable base for the cycle of operation.

Second, as KevH mentioned there is a lot going on in gunfights and participants rarely stand still. why is that important? Two reasons, IME most LE firearms training involves shooting while remaining stationary and when people used to shooting while remaining stationary start to move they tend to relax their grip on the gun.

I'm not just talking about people relaxing their grip when shooting while moving. I see it when they move then resume shooting while stationary. I've seen this in USPSA and IDPA, Hell, I see it at work in in shooters transitioning from shooting to standing to shooting kneeling in the same spot. For a long time I noticed many shooters would hit standing and start missing when they went to kneeling. I finally figured out they were relaxing their grip. I helped several shooters up their scores simply by having them re-grip the gun after going to kneeling.

Both the mass of the frame, and the distribution of that mass can effect reliability. This is why many agencies now test potential duty guns both with and without WML. The WML induced issues with Gen 3 glocks .40 cals were a some what different situation where frame flex and structural integrity were factors.

Thanks for saying it better than I could. I also was confused when people started talking accuracy and then reliability. I tried to steer it back on course with my SLG comment.. there is a reason 1911s can be tuned to turn in ridiculous groups while glocks can maybe get close with custom barrels but never there..

[breakingtime91]

But that example has nothing to do with reliability.

Accuracy is going to be different for everyone. Hand size, shape, dexterity....

I have a buddy who can turn any rifle into a target rifle. He's just naturally good it doesn't matter if it's an AR, 10/22, AK, Win94 or whatever. He makes it seem like they're all precision sniper rifles. But give him a handgun and at 3 yards he's more likely to shoot himself than the target. No matter what he does it's like having a brand new shooter pick up a handgun for the first time. None of that says anything about reliability of either platform



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Thread title is tactical accuracy

[Clusterfrack]

My older daughter is tiny (<100 lbs), with child-size hands. She provided an interesting (if limited) test of reliability:

Glock 19 Gen4: FTF malfunctions, even with as good a two-handed grip as she is able to have. Brass to the face as well.

Glock 17 Gen4: Good function 2 hands, FTFs with SHO. Brass to the face.

Glock 43: No malfunctions, even SHO (this was a bit of a surprise to me). She now owns a Glock 43.

CZ P-07: No malfunctions, even SHO. See below for discussion about slide weight.


Glock 19 slide: 361g
CZ P-07 slide: 337g

The P-07 slide is 24g lighter. From a quick Enos forum search it looks like 1oz (28g) is a reasonable amount for a slide-lightening job.
https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/183028-real-testing-and-feedback-on-slide-lightening/

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191109/7be4cda51bb523d3566708cd1772b47d.jpg

[4RNR]

Thread title is tactical accuracy

That may be so but in the opening post it's all about reliability not accuracy


We've seen any number of videos or read reports of pistols malfunctioning during gunfights. Glocks and other polymer pistols seem to predominate these incidents, but of course, polymer pistols are very prevalent in law enforcement and the CCW world. I will note that most videos probably video LEO's and armed citizens using full-size pistols. (I know that smaller pistols may have issues due to their size.)

While quality polymer pistols will function all day on the square range, are they more prone to failure than metal pistols during the dynamic nature of gunfighting (movement, imperfect grips)?

I'm definitely not a hater of the polymer pistol. I currently carry Glocks, but would be happy with an M&P, polymer HK or Walther, or perhaps even an APX. (Let's not get into SIG 320 issues.)

Thanks and be safe.



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[Clusterfrack]

Thread title is tactical accuracy


That may be so but in the opening post it's all about reliability not accuracy


This is confusing. I suppose you can't hit the target if your gun doesn't work...

[AMC]

The issue of a slide locking back on a partially loaded magazine is 100% shooter induced, and has been mentioned by HCM and KevH is largely due to stress induced weirdness in the grip. Most cops do not practice for a very fast presentation from the holster, and when they try to do it for real, it gets ugly fast.

Our Daytime Pistol Qualification for Academy recruits involves a lot of movement between cover positions, and encourages fast and efficient manipulation for the pistol due to overall time constraints. Same with the Lowlight Qual. We see the recruits slides lock back on partially loaded magazines fairly regularly, and actually warn them about this phenomenon and not to just dump the magazine without checking during the test (they wouldn't have enough ammo to finish the course).

Recently during the Officer Safety/Field Tactics week for an Academy class, their were several young instructors for this course (not Range Staff) who were screaming at recruits when they did a 'tap, rack, ready' after firing five simunitions rounds during a scenario, and going empty (recruits weren't told they were given only five Sims rounds in the 12 round magazine). The instructor was screaming at them that a Sig P226 pistol will NEVER malfunction like that, and it will ALWAYS mean the gun is empty. I had to clear that up with the 'instructors', who were resistant to the info.....until I asked the recruits how many of them had experienced the same malfunction during training. A quarter of them raised their hands.

[revchuck38]

AMC - I won’t carry my P6 for that reason, it’s the only pistol I have that gives me that problem…plus there’s the issue with the decock lever being where the slide release is on everything else I have.

[KevH]

My older daughter is tiny (<100 lbs), with child-size hands. She provided an interesting (if limited) test of reliability:

Glock 19 Gen4: FTF malfunctions, even with as good a two-handed grip as she is able to have. Brass to the face as well.


When was the G19 purchased and which RSA is in there?

There are several variations and Glock did a "voluntary upgrade" type thing with them (I think they called it a "spring exchange").

My guess is that you have one of the older iterations that is oversprung.

[KevH]

Clusterfrack

https://i.imgur.com/GHhzGyel.jpg

This diagram is from 2011ish. I'm sure there are even several more versions out there now ten years later. Glock is not great about telling consumers when they fix things.

[KevH]

Clusterfrack

I just took this pic out of my 2018 armorer manual. Not current, but closer:

https://i.imgur.com/nbqzZBih.jpg

[M2CattleCo]

Whatever they called a fix wasn’t.

Anything they made in the decade or so from ‘09 until they put the breechface cut in the Gen5 were suspect.

[HCM]

Let's talk about old school, metal frame pistols. There was always somebody who would show up at a training day and start off with malfunctions because their pistol was bone dry. If they had been in an OIS instead of training, they'd have been doing non-stop malfunction drills.

That is true but it’s an operator error rather than an inherent trait. An IME with SIG 229’s the guns would usually get through a mag or so dry before choking as the gun warmed up.

[KevH]

I stand by my statement that the "limp wrist" thing is a shoddy deflection created by Glock to transfer blame to the consumer for poor design execution.

Their guns, when setup properly and maintained, should function flawlessly irrespective of grip stregnth.

[Clusterfrack]

Thanks KevH. Will check.

[HCM]

Thanks for saying it better than I could. I also was confused when people started talking accuracy and then reliability. I tried to steer it back on course with my SLG comment.. there is a reason 1911s can be tuned to turn in ridiculous groups while glocks can maybe get close with custom barrels but never there..

As I recall SLG took issue with my defense of Gen2 Glocks vs P228s.

Custom barrels in Gen 1-3 Glocks were a real thing but Glock has made it a moot issue in Gen 4/5.

There are two potential issues: mechanical accuracy and how much of that mechanical accuracy a shooter can actually make use of, aka “shoot ability.”

The Gen2s were no where as mechanically accurate but my example was very easy shoot to it’s potential.

Say a Gen2 Glock is a 4” gun at 25 yards if I can shoot 4” at 25 I’m shooting to 100% of it’s potential. That would be a fun with ok accuracy but excellent “shoot ability.”

And in general I agree that metal frame or heavier guns like polymer guns with WML are easier to shoot it’s a function of the ratio of weight of the gun to the weight of the trigger pull.

[HCM]

My older daughter is tiny (<100 lbs), with child-size hands. She provided an interesting (if limited) test of reliability:

Glock 19 Gen4: FTF malfunctions, even with as good a two-handed grip as she is able to have. Brass to the face as well.

Glock 17 Gen4: Good function 2 hands, FTFs with SHO. Brass to the face.

Glock 43: No malfunctions, even SHO (this was a bit of a surprise to me). She now owns a Glock 43.

CZ P-07: No malfunctions, even SHO. See below for discussion about slide weight.

I would be curious to know if adding weight in the form of a WML or a weighted grip plug would increase your daughters reliability with the G19/19.

I think mass in the frame of at least the ratio of slide mass to frame mass is part of the equation.

Recently I picked a P320 with a red dot and PMM comp. in a standard polymer grip shell it would only function reliably with hotter ammo such as +P or nato ish. Prior owner, an employee of my LGS claimed it ran 100% with everything.

I tried it in an AXG (metal) grip shell and it started running with all ammo.

Subsequently spoke to the original owner and found out it ran with all ammo when he had it because he was running it in a Legion tungsten weighted grip shell and had never tried it in the standard polymer grip shell.

[HCM]

The issue of a slide locking back on a partially loaded magazine is 100% shooter induced, and has been mentioned by HCM and KevH is largely due to stress induced weirdness in the grip. Most cops do not practice for a very fast presentation from the holster, and when they try to do it for real, it gets ugly fast.

Our Daytime Pistol Qualification for Academy recruits involves a lot of movement between cover positions, and encourages fast and efficient manipulation for the pistol due to overall time constraints. Same with the Lowlight Qual. We see the recruits slides lock back on partially loaded magazines fairly regularly, and actually warn them about this phenomenon and not to just dump the magazine without checking during the test (they wouldn't have enough ammo to finish the course).

Recently during the Officer Safety/Field Tactics week for an Academy class, their were several young instructors for this course (not Range Staff) who were screaming at recruits when they did a 'tap, rack, ready' after firing five simunitions rounds during a scenario, and going empty (recruits weren't told they were given only five Sims rounds in the 12 round magazine). The instructor was screaming at them that a Sig P226 pistol will NEVER malfunction like that, and it will ALWAYS mean the gun is empty. I had to clear that up with the 'instructors', who were resistant to the info.....until I asked the recruits how many of them had experienced the same malfunction during training. A quarter of them raised their hands.

Spot on here.

I’ve never had a mid mag lock back with a SIG P22X series gun but I have had them (and seen others have them) with P320s and with G17s with extended slide releases.

I’ve modified my grip, gone to the large grip shell and added two small squares of skate tape high on the sides of the grip to keep my grip from creeping up. These measures have eliminated the issue with standard 17 round mags but it still pops up with the 21 round mags. Usually early in the mag so I’m curious if the weight of the ammo stack in the mag is a factor.

[KevH]

As I recall SLG took issue with my defense of Gen2 Glocks vs P228s.

Custom barrels in Gen 1-3 Glocks were a real thing but Glock has made it a moot issue in Gen 4/5.

There are two potential issues: mechanical accuracy and how much of that mechanical accuracy a shooter can actually make use of, aka “shoot ability.”

The Gen2s were no where as mechanically accurate but my example was very easy shoot to it’s potential.

Say a Gen2 Glock is a 4” gun at 25 yards if I can shoot 4” at 25 I’m shooting to 100% of it’s potential. That would be a fun with ok accuracy but excellent “shoot ability.”

And in general I agree that metal frame or heavier guns like polymer guns with WML are easier to shoot it’s a function of the ratio of weight of the gun to the weight of the trigger pull.

A Gen1-3 Glock can be made just as mechanically accurate as mid-90's P228 or even more so.

One solution was a properly fitted aftermarket barrel. Bar-Sto went a little crazy with this adding lots of material to the barrel feet. Not needed. KKM does a really decent job in a near drop-in format.

Another solution, depending on the gun, was to have the factory barrel re-crowned.

My 2002ish "E" series G22 could not hold anything tighter than a 4" group at 25 yards. A wise old Glock sage suggested getting the factory barrel re-crowned. I did.
To my astonishment it was able to shoot 1.5" groups at 25 yards from a rest with factory Federal American Eagle 180gr ammo. Very respectable and changed my appreciation for the gun.

https://i.imgur.com/takwy44l.jpg

In a Glock, what matters most is how the barrel fits the slide (barrel hood area and the muzzle end) and that the barrel crown isn't damaged, marred, or imperfect from the factory (they frequently used to be) and that there is enough spring tension to hold it in place. The slide to frame fit can rattle and the gun will still be very mechanically accurate. There is a reason the Gen5 barrels are designed the way they are. They should have been like that thirty years ago.

[KevH]

I would be curious to know if adding weight in the form of a WML or a weighted grip plug would increase your daughters reliability with the G19/19.

I think mass in the frame of at least the ratio of slide mass to frame mass is part of the equation.

Recently I picked a P320 with a red dot and PMM comp. in a standard polymer grip shell it would only function reliably with hotter ammo such as +P or nato ish. Prior owner, an employee of my LGS claimed it ran 100% with everything.

I tried it in an AXG (metal) grip shell and it started running with all ammo.

Subsequently spoke to the original owner and found out it ran with all ammo when he had it because he was running it in a Legion tungsten weighted grip shell and had never tried it in the standard polymer grip shell.

I'd bet a shilling if you lowered the recoil spring rate it would work just fine with the polymer grip. :)

[AMC]

Spot on here.

I’ve never had a mid mag lock back with a SIG P22X series gun but I have had them (and seen others have them) with P320s and with G17s with extended slide releases.

I’ve modified my grip, gone to the large grip shell and added two small squares of skate tape high on the sides of the grip to keep my grip from creeping up. These measures have eliminated the issue with standard 17 round mags but it still pops up with the 21 round mags. Usually early in the mag so I’m curious if the weight of the ammo stack in the mag is a factor.

I've also personally never experienced premature slide lock (wonder if there's a treatment for that?) with a P226, but did have it happen once or twice on my 320 X5 Legion, interestingly enough. Never the 320 Pro Fullsize however. Seen it happen with fair regularity with recruits though, especially in the first several rounds out of the holster. Further indication that it's shooter induced by grip weirdness.

I've been meaning to try a large grip module (Large...Hah! It's more a bigger medium). Might provide more purchase area for my support hand during fast shot strings. Still working in teaching that support hand to pull its weight proper!

[TheNewbie]

I wish Sig would have combined either the slide release and the take down lever, or the slide release and the decocker.

[P30]

Another solution, depending on the gun, was to have the factory barrel re-crowned.

Another simple change to increase accuracy and keep reliability could be an o-ring like the one some HKs have. It's position is at the barrel near the muzzle. It reduces the play between barrel and slide. I had an HK45 with such an o-ring. It was very accurate.

[HCM]

I'd bet a shilling if you lowered the recoil spring rate it would work just fine with the polymer grip. :)

That was what I initially intended to do but I stumbled on and impulse bought the AXG frame first.

This gun has a compact/carry length slide but IME the FS 320s are noticeably over spring.

[HCM]

I've also personally never experienced premature slide lock (wonder if there's a treatment for that?) with a P226, but did have it happen once or twice on my 320 X5 Legion, interestingly enough. Never the 320 Pro Fullsize however. Seen it happen with fair regularity with recruits though, especially in the first several rounds out of the holster. Further indication that it's shooter induced by grip weirdness.

I've been meaning to try a large grip module (Large...Hah! It's more a bigger medium). Might provide more purchase area for my support hand during fast shot strings. Still working in teaching that support hand to pull its weight proper!

I asked a couple of the guys who would benefit from a large grip why they were using the “ladies” grip, “M” being for for Mujeres ….

The mid mag lock back issues have actually been more common among our FI’s and SRT guys who shoot high grip vs our line folks.

[HCM]

A Gen1-3 Glock can be made just as mechanically accurate as mid-90's P228 or even more so.

One solution was a properly fitted aftermarket barrel. Bar-Sto went a little crazy with this adding lots of material to the barrel feet. Not needed. KKM does a really decent job in a near drop-in format.

Another solution, depending on the gun, was to have the factory barrel re-crowned.

My 2002ish "E" series G22 could not hold anything tighter than a 4" group at 25 yards. A wise old Glock sage suggested getting the factory barrel re-crowned. I did.
To my astonishment it was able to shoot 1.5" groups at 25 yards from a rest with factory Federal American Eagle 180gr ammo. Very respectable and changed my appreciation for the gun.

https://i.imgur.com/takwy44l.jpg

In a Glock, what matters most is how the barrel fits the slide (barrel hood area and the muzzle end) and that the barrel crown isn't damaged, marred, or imperfect from the factory (they frequently used to be) and that there is enough spring tension to hold it in place. The slide to frame fit can rattle and the gun will still be very mechanically accurate. There is a reason the Gen5 barrels are designed the way they are. They should have been like that thirty years ago.

I’ve had PD trade in 40 Glocks recrowned but never tried it on a 9mm.

[Hot Sauce]

A Gen1-3 Glock can be made just as mechanically accurate as mid-90's P228 or even more so.

One solution was a properly fitted aftermarket barrel. Bar-Sto went a little crazy with this adding lots of material to the barrel feet. Not needed. KKM does a really decent job in a near drop-in format.

Another solution, depending on the gun, was to have the factory barrel re-crowned.

My 2002ish "E" series G22 could not hold anything tighter than a 4" group at 25 yards. A wise old Glock sage suggested getting the factory barrel re-crowned. I did.
To my astonishment it was able to shoot 1.5" groups at 25 yards from a rest with factory Federal American Eagle 180gr ammo. Very respectable and changed my appreciation for the gun.


In a Glock, what matters most is how the barrel fits the slide (barrel hood area and the muzzle end) and that the barrel crown isn't damaged, marred, or imperfect from the factory (they frequently used to be) and that there is enough spring tension to hold it in place. The slide to frame fit can rattle and the gun will still be very mechanically accurate. There is a reason the Gen5 barrels are designed the way they are. They should have been like that thirty years ago.

Was there any visual indicator of crown damage on the stock barrel or was that just a good educated guess by your sage?

Also, re:Bar-Sto vs KKM, does the amount of extra material matter if it’s custom fitted anyway, or are you just saying that KKM made the job of getting a custom fit significantly easier?

[HCM]

Was there any visual indicator of crown damage on the stock barrel or was that just a good educated guess by your sage?

Also, re:Bar-Sto vs KKM, does the amount of extra material matter if it’s custom fitted anyway, or are you just saying that KKM made the job of getting a custom fit significantly easier?

The theory on defaulting to cutting a new crown on older Glock barrels is during times of high demand Glock was known to get sloppy about keeping up with tooling wear though some are visibly off once you know what to look for.

[KevH]

Was there any visual indicator of crown damage on the stock barrel or was that just a good educated guess by your sage?


No visual indication whatsoever. It looked fine.



Also, re:Bar-Sto vs KKM, does the amount of extra material matter if it’s custom fitted anyway, or are you just saying that KKM made the job of getting a custom fit significantly easier?


You want a very snug fit at the barrel hood. KKM's are nearly drop-in so you only have to remove a slight amount of material if any at all.

Wilson barrels are snug, but not snug enough. Bar-Sto is extremely expensive and typically requires a stupid amount of material to be removed to have them fit properly. They are very high quality, but for a Glock I would just stick with KKM.