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Corlissimo
08-04-2012, 02:45 PM
Is there a practical reason for training to draw to a low-ready position for a CCW/civilian?

I'm looking to put this concept under scrutiny as I've been thinking about it for some time now, but I'd like to here from those who are farther along the learning curve than I am.

Out on the street, in a real world SD situation I am not sure whether drawing to low-ready is a good idea in most situations. If I need to go beyond establishing master grip, and actually draw my weapon, that should really be only because there is a actual, and legitimate, need for use of lethal force. Granted, there are the SD scenarios where the weapon would be drawn but not fired (hopefully that would be the case any time) but is that enough reason to practice drawing to low-ready? If there is just cause for drawing a weapon it stands to reason that one would draw down on the threat.

In the home however, I could see this being a more useful tool, such as in a home invasion, since there may be others in the vicinity that we definitely don't want to muzzle.

My main reason for asking is that as armed citizens, interested in self defense, we should be training for real life situations in a meaningful & practical way and lately I've been thinking more critically & objectively about WHAT I'm training and WHY I'm training it.

roadsiderob
08-04-2012, 05:37 PM
I think drawing to low ready is a useful tactic in some situations. Probably most useful behind cover or concealment where the perceived threat cannot see the drawn gun. 18 years ago I was in a situation where I drew to low ready behind cover as a situation unfolded. I ended up not needing it, but if I had, I would have been too far behind the curve if it were not already drawn. I'm not sure it is a technique that really needs to be practiced, however, as it really comes down to situational awareness and making a conscious decision to draw preemptively against an unknown threat or situation as it is unfolding.

GJM
08-04-2012, 05:39 PM
I am not sure I understand your exact question(s) because of some of the words you use in your post. I assume you aren't asking about practicing a draw to the low ready but really the appropriateness of using a low ready position? If so, there was an extensive thread that discussed this some months back.

The Rogers School teaches a low ready position so that the muzzle never covers the target until you are in the act of shooting. That is for both performance and legal/moral reasons.

Corlissimo
08-04-2012, 08:03 PM
I am not sure I understand your exact question(s) because of some of the words you use in your post. I assume you aren't asking about practicing a draw to the low ready but really the appropriateness of using a low ready position? If so, there was an extensive thread that discussed this some months back.

The Rogers School teaches a low ready position so that the muzzle never covers the target until you are in the act of shooting. That is for both performance and legal/moral reasons.

Okay, I'll clarify as I can see how there could be some confusion.

The value of the low ready position is apparent to me. So to clarify, I AM asking about whether this "skill" (drawing to low-ready position) is something that SHOULD be practiced.

My Logic: Since we should be training skills that we would ACTUALLY NEED to use, is there value/need in doing so for this "skill"? Or, is it really unnecessary since, as roadsiderob put it, this is really just something that would flow from the needs of a dynamic situation?

The additional thoughts I expressed in my original post were an attempt at outlining my logic process in working through this topic. In hindsight, they were extraneous. Nothing out of the norm for me... unfortunately. :o

JV_
08-04-2012, 08:19 PM
The Rogers School teaches a low ready position so that the muzzle never covers the target until you are in the act of shooting. That is for both performance and legal/moral reasons.

Is the low ready position more useful to LE than civilians?

LOKNLOD
08-04-2012, 10:28 PM
Here's my though pattern on it:


If I'm drawing my gun, it is because I have decided that lethal force is necessary and justified and something/one needs bullets right now.
If the threat ceases to be bullet-worthy in time that elapses between initiating the draw and the trigger breaking, it is nice to be able to recognize that, and choose not to shoot, but the gun is still going to be on target.
If I'm choosing to draw my weapon directly to the low ready, it's because I've decided something isn't worth shooting, or even having a gun pointed at it, but it wouldn't hurt to have the gun out. (?)
If that's the case, then while I would like to do it smoothly, I don't necessarily have to do it at the speed of light. It is a very deliberate act, and can be treated as such.

So practice drawing to the shot gets tons of reps. Practice drawing but not shooting gets a few reps too, just so there's at least a chance I might not smoke the guy who has already dropped the knife and turned to run. Practice drawing to the low ready, not so much. I don't see much value in spending my limited practice time on that. Similarly, I don't practice doing admin reloads either, because neither of them really falls inside the "things I would choose to do while under dire threat to life and limb" circle in the Venn diagram of life.

ToddG
08-04-2012, 10:35 PM
Is there a practical reason for training to draw to a low-ready position for a CCW/civilian?

In my opinion, no.

Setting aside the pros or cons of low ready itself, drawing to any ready position is necessarily something you would only do if there was no imminent threat that needed to be shot immediately. As such it would require neither tremendous speed nor precision. I don't see a benefit of practicing simple movements that don't need to be performed fast or precisely.

GJM
08-04-2012, 11:36 PM
Here's my though pattern on it:


If I'm drawing my gun, it is because I have decided that lethal force is necessary and justified and something/one needs bullets right now.
If the threat ceases to be bullet-worthy in time that elapses between initiating the draw and the trigger breaking, it is nice to be able to recognize that, and choose not to shoot, but the gun is still going to be on target.
If I'm choosing to draw my weapon directly to the low ready, it's because I've decided something isn't worth shooting, or even having a gun pointed at it, but it wouldn't hurt to have the gun out. (?)
If that's the case, then while I would like to do it smoothly, I don't necessarily have to do it at the speed of light. It is a very deliberate act, and can be treated as such.

So practice drawing to the shot gets tons of reps. Practice drawing but not shooting gets a few reps too, just so there's at least a chance I might not smoke the guy who has already dropped the knife and turned to run. Practice drawing to the low ready, not so much. I don't see much value in spending my limited practice time on that. Similarly, I don't practice doing admin reloads either, because neither of them really falls inside the "things I would choose to do while under dire threat to life and limb" circle in the Venn diagram of life.

I agree that drawing to a low ready is not a skill that needs to be practiced, in the same manner as a draw, reload or other manipulations. JV, I also agree that LE is much more likely than a civilian to present a handgun without firing. However, I can see a number of situations where the low ready may be appropriate for a civilian. For example:

1) When carrying a handgun and encountering a dangerous animal, like a grizzly bear, I draw the handgun to a low ready.

2) When hunting, the long gun/handgun often goes to a low ready.

3) When a human threat is possible/probable, but not fully developed, and you have cover/concealment, bringing the handgun to the low ready can increase your reaction time if the threat materializes.

4) If someone was threatening with a baseball bat or knife, for example, at 20 yards, I would find the low ready appropriate.

In summary, when you are legally justified and want to speed your reaction time, but not cover the target with the muzzle, a low ready seems advantageous.

TCinVA
08-05-2012, 09:39 AM
No. If you can get the gun out and on target fast, you can get the gun out and point it at a dude's feet fast, too. In real life a draw originally intended to shoot a bad person in the face may well need to turn into a draw to a ready position because things tend to change pretty quick once bad guys understand that you're pulling a gun instead of handing them your wallet.

I wouldn't waste any time practicing draw to a ready position.

nycnoob
08-05-2012, 10:55 AM
I do know that Ayoob recommends to practice this and Bill Rogers thinks its a waste of time (personal conversations with both).

I am no Pistol SME but in my daily life there are some things I practice daily including: turning off the light when I leave the bathroom, refilling the electric kettle when I pour a cup. I have noticed that it is very difficult to break these low stress daily habits. There are times I wish to leave the light on in the bathroom because I will be right back (get a new razor or more soap) or not refill the kettle because I want to use the hot water for more things and I will be refilling with room temperature water. I find I often unconscious do perform the practiced action even though I conscious tell myself not to. These are no pressure actions with very minimal consequences for performing the wrong action yet I often find that I can not make myself perform on some other path. I often wonder how these habits translate to other practices, like my pistol training.

I wonder if the officers involved in the Miami Dade shootout or the CA Newhall shootout realized that they were putting the brass in their pockets and thought "this is a stupid thing to do, I should just drop it on the floor" but infact did not do what they consciously decided to do. So I argue that you should be practicing this or any other deviations from the normal path (extending the gun at the target but not firing, drawing to position "two" and holding there, drawing to position Sul) that you feel you might need. I argue not practicing these deviations from "normal" practice is infact a training scar.

abu fitna
08-05-2012, 01:17 PM
I have seen this be part of certain instructor's mantras where they are apparently uncomfortable with having students draw in the first place. Perhaps that is a bit harsh, but is unfortunately rather common in a certain generation of square range instructors (usually also the kind that "teach to the test" for old school PPC qual). This draw is often paired with the requirement that a shooter reset to low ready or position SUL after the shoot or in movement between target transitions, rather than a compressed / high ready. Clearly, there are cases where low ready or position SUL is more appropriate in movement, but the way this is often interpreted by some folks is not about what is appropriate. The mantra often equates any muzzle position other than 45 degree down forward as unsafe, and even stretch the claim to say that the high compressed ready as the equal of a "charlie's angel" 70's muzzle up stance. And since the mid point of a modern draw movement is typically taught as compressed high ready before punch out / press out.... instructors that have this mentality thus substitute a low ready position on the draw before raising to sights on target.

Now there are folks that teach this for other reasons, and have different thinking on why. I personally don't have any issue introducing this as a variant in training, so that not all draws are always accompanied by the decision to shoot immediately... this in theory prevents one type of training scar. To what extent that has a measurable outcome, I am not sure as this has not been tested empirically, but it doesn't hurt in that keeping a practitioner cognitively engaged with why they are doing what they are doing on each draw is never a bad thing.

Your experiences, and your instructors, may vary...

Dagga Boy
08-05-2012, 03:00 PM
It is a critical skill for law enforcement, no matter what those who have never really done the job say. It is called getting ahead of a fight and placing yourself in a position of dominance right out of the gate when enough of a threat or the situation dictates. Drawing to the threat means you are already behind the curve. The key is that it is one of the huge differences between what cops do and what non-sworn CCW holders would do and the expectations of both. To me the most applicable application to a civilian would be while at home and drawing to begin a search or at a unseen threat (hearing a window smashed in an adjacent room). Drawing to the ready is actually what most cops should be doing more than drawing straight on to a threat, which is the polar opposite to a legally armed civilian.

There are a few issues regarding training for L/E that almost require documented training in this for L/E, but it is not so critical for others.

gringop
08-05-2012, 11:00 PM
Disclaimer, not LEO, don't have the knowledge, experience or desire to speak about LEO TTPs.

I don't have a low ready position, at all. My ready position is the #2, strong hand and gun on side of pec, muzzle angled slightly down.

This was being taught by InSights, OPS (Sanford and Gomez) and others as far back as the year 2000. Does anyone teaching integrated classes (firearms and combatives) teach an extended low ready position anymore?

I have only been able to take AMIS from SouthNark but I don't think I've ever read that he teaches low ready in ECQC

Re. "Bill Rogers thinks its a waste of time", doesn't the testing at Rogers start from low ready?

Gringop

GJM
08-05-2012, 11:19 PM
I think part of the confusion of this thread is as to which question is being asked:

1) Is PRACTICING drawing to a low ready useful.

versus

2) IS a low ready position useful.

I can assure you that Bill Rogers does not think the low ready position is a waste. He believes it as fast as being pointed in at a target. He also believes rule 2 is the most important safety rule, and your muzzle should not cover the target until you are in the process of shooting the target.

Dagga Boy
08-06-2012, 12:17 AM
Disclaimer, not LEO, don't have the knowledge, experience or desire to speak about LEO TTPs.

I don't have a low ready position, at all. My ready position is the #2, strong hand and gun on side of pec, muzzle angled slightly down.

This was being taught by InSights, OPS (Sanford and Gomez) and others as far back as the year 2000. Does anyone teaching integrated classes (firearms and combatives) teach an extended low ready position anymore?

I have only been able to take AMIS from SouthNark but I don't think I've ever read that he teaches low ready in ECQC

Re. "Bill Rogers thinks its a waste of time", doesn't the testing at Rogers start from low ready?

Gringop

Low ready is often a "starting point" for both searches and threat escalation. I teach integrated combatives from the low ready because I usually teach to L/E first responders, and you need to be able to rapidly get from the Low ready to a retention position if it is going to go hands on without a lethal response. If you never use a low ready, then you have nothing to worry about. I think you are probably missing something by never utilizing or training from the low ready, but life is full of choices.

JV_
08-06-2012, 06:53 AM
These are no pressure actions with very minimal consequences for performing the wrong action yet I often find that I can not make myself perform on some other path. I often wonder how these habits translate to other practices, like my pistol training.

I'm not a brain function expert. But here is my take.

I work on drawing my gun, looking at the target, and pulling the trigger a LOT. Very rarely do I do the first two steps and NOT pull the trigger. But, when I'm at the range, working on timed drills where I don't meet the par time for the draw - I stop. I don't finish pulling the trigger just because that's what I always do.

nycnoob
08-06-2012, 07:16 AM
I can assure you that Bill Rogers does not think the low ready position is a waste

Just to be clear, Bill Rogers does not believe you need to practice drawing to the low ready as a separate skill or to draw and press out without firing the shot.
He believes that if this is something you decide to do, then you will not have trouble doing it. It is an issue of consciously aborting an action. He was specifically discussing Ayoobs belief that these should be practiced skills. Ayoob believes since they are more likely then the drawing to fire one should practice them.

On the other hand I have taken SouthNarc's ECQC and I have seen that shooters who have practiced A LOT have trouble with SN's notion of "press out to appropriate extension then fire from this position". People can not break their thousands of repetitions do press out all the way then pull the trigger. I do not think that this is an issue of them not understanding what is desired or being too uncoordinated to perform the act, just an issue of "training scars".

Also when I was at a Larry Vickers course recently It was not infrequent that two or three shots were accidentally fired while in low ready waiting for the "fire" command. My belief is that this was stress induced, people were mentally preparing what they would do "when the command is given" and just got ahead of themselves. It was not a big deal on the range, but if the situation had been a potential lethal force encounter then I believe all those shots were actually "negligent discharges". Mitchel could tell us all what the legal ramifications of having an ND (even with the muzzle averted) in a situation which is legally a "don't shoot, yet". The people who were doing this were all good shooters, all shots on target, small groups but were missing some mental stress practice.

Ayoob also recommends practicing for these sort of issues as well. His recommendation was: Have your friend all out drills for you to shoot. Sometimes from the holster, sometimes from the low ready. Your friend will call out the "Fire" command after a suitable pause. Though sometimes he calls out "abort", and that drill is over, even if you did not fire a shot. Its more of a mental preparation game then it is a shooting skill but I think it has value. I know that guard dog handlers have to specifically practice for this, having the dog on alert, ready to attack for an extended period of time then having the attack called off with no emotional release of tension. Dogs need to know just because they were at the ready, does not mean they will get to attack, they need to practice dealing with the stress.

For those shooters in the IDPA matches, would it mess with your head if they occasionally did that during the competition? That is abort a run just when you thought you were going to hear the beep of the clock: "shooter ready, (long pause) abort (pause) lets try that again . . . ". Of course they would only do this if you were visibly anticipating the beep, making it even worse. I bet it would rattle some competitors the first few competitions it was implemented, though after a few times it should not be a distraction.

MDS
08-06-2012, 08:12 AM
For those shooters in the IDPA matches, would it mess with your head if they occasionally did that during the competition? That is abort a run just when you thought you were going to hear the beep of the clock: "shooter ready, (long pause) abort (pause) lets try that again . . . ". Of course they would only do this if you were visibly anticipating the beep, making it even worse. I bet it would rattle some competitors the first few competitions it was implemented, though after a few times it should not be a distraction.

I've been thinking about and experimenting with this a lot lately. I think the bottom line is that a good game should be fair, whereas fairness doesn't factor into tactical situations. Which is a shame, because games are a great way to practice tactical situations, but they just can't simulate some key aspects of real life.

That said, I've been experimenting during dry fire with random fire and abort cues. Like I'll have the TV on and any female voice is a cue to draw and fire, but if a different voice speaks before I fire, I abort and come to ready. I've been playing around with programming some dry fire drills of my own, and I'm thinking of ways to incorporate some of this into the drills. For example, if the dot turns green, that means the threat became not shoot-worthy. All that sort of thing is very simplistic, though - what I'd really like is various scenarios that are randomly generated in terms of action and reaction by humanoid threats. Building all this in my copious free time, of course. ;)

To the op, I think that practicing the exercise of judgment during manipulations is more valuable than practicing all the myriad mechanical possibilities you might judge to be prudent in any given situation. IOW,drawing to ready seems like an inefficient way to spend your practice time.

ToddG
08-06-2012, 08:36 AM
There are distinct separate concepts floating around here that are getting combined and confused. The need to draw to ready is different than the need to practice drawing to ready. Assuming arguendo that drawing to a ready position is a reasonable and common need, it's still not something that needs to be done with the immediacy and precision of a fired shot. If you can do it properly the very first time you practice it, you're done. Why waste time building up neural pathways to get faster or more precise when it serves no purpose? That is all time that could be spent building up skills that actually will benefit from the effort.

As JV pointed out from his own experience, being able to draw -- even with every possible intention of shooting right now! -- and then scrub the shot at the last moment is not a difficult challenge. There are all sorts of shoot/don't-shoot drills you can do with a partner. I even use some in AFHS. No one, and I mean no one, fires rounds unintentionally. They may change their intention too late and shoot when they shouldn't, but once the decision is made not to shoot, no shooting occurs. It's completely different than habits such as turning off lights as you leave the room. You're not thinking about turning off the light... you're definitely thinking about shooting.

Re: ADs in class from the ready position, first there is obviously a trigger finger issue that I'm sure was addressed. People standing at the ready on the line with their fingers in the trigger guard are obviously creating a risk and violating fundamental safety rules. Second, if the ADs were primarily occurring as people presented from ready to target that's totally different than whether they could get to the ready position safely (and is one reason I prefer a presentation from ready that aligns the gun on the target as early as possible and doesn't involve contacting the trigger until the sights are aligned on the target).

Re: retention and ECQC, this came up on TPI not long ago and Craig (Southnarc) confirmed that it was more a matter of people lacking familiarity with shooting from retention/intermediate extension than some kind of robotic habit they're unable to overcome. Put someone six inches from a wall and tell them to draw their gun. The number who will crash their muzzle into the wall out of uncontrollable "muscle memory" is just about zero.

SouthNarc
08-06-2012, 10:05 AM
Re: retention and ECQC, this came up on TPI not long ago and Craig (Southnarc) confirmed that it was more a matter of people lacking familiarity with shooting from retention/intermediate extension than some kind of robotic habit they're unable to overcome. Put someone six inches from a wall and tell them to draw their gun. The number who will crash their muzzle into the wall out of uncontrollable "muscle memory" is just about zero.


I think the critical element lacking in your wall analogy is the pressure. My hypothesis (i.e. I have no way to prove this) is that pistol skills applied within the orthodoxy of ranged shooting applications contribute to re-entanglement within 0-5'. If every single repetition from the holster has been to full extension, then the probability of doing that when one's mind is not consciously involved in stopping the gun at an appropriate level of extension based on proximity of threat is high. Where I see this happen in particular is when guys get gassed and frustrated emotionally, particularly when trying to get out of a clinch. It happens in every single class. Another one that I've seen is when a student is bearing down on another within a couple of feet and the other goes to slide lock. You'd think that the student would just muzzle strike or hit with the off hand, but on more than one occasion I've seen a student actually reach for a magazine and get brained.

I still don't have a definitive answer for why these "speed bumps" happen, but they happen every single class when a student is actually opposed by another living, breathing, thinking person who's also trying to win.

It's interesting.....

ToddG
08-06-2012, 11:15 AM
Given the infinite variation in terms of extension and the implication of the mistakes occurring due to external pressure, do you think that purposely practicing to a semi-extended draw has benefit? What becomes the trigger that fires one (full extension) as opposed to the other (partial extension)?

Or would you say that it's more a matter of modulating the practiced response properly during an entanglement distance encounter by getting repetitions of that problem under stress through FOF and the like?

SouthNarc
08-06-2012, 11:41 AM
Or would you say that it's more a matter of modulating the practiced response properly during an entanglement distance encounter by getting repetitions of that problem under stress through FOF and the like?

Todd I think this is really where it's at. The only thing I can definitively say at this point is that the guys who have repeated exposure to the pressure from the evolutions hardly ever do it. BUT I can't rule out the validity of practicing, staticly to lesser points of full extension. I simply haven't had anyone come to the course and say they prepared for it that way, and show corroborative performance.

Dagga Boy
08-06-2012, 12:25 PM
"Why waste time building up neural pathways to get faster or more precise when it serves no purpose? That is all time that could be spent building up skills that actually will benefit from the effort."

Again, from a strictly LEO point of view-The ability to rapidly and in a highly efficient manner draw to a position of domination or advantage when dealing with a possible armed unknown (and to do it safely and with the finger going immediately to register) is a big advantage. Confrontations with real bad guys is very much a sizing up operation and a risk benefit analysis. A strong verbal command in conjunction with an extremely rapid and smooth transition of a firearm from the holster to a better position of assessment and evaluation will speed your ability to eliminate that threat if it goes lethal. It also removes the most likely part of the operation to screw up-the draw, and often from a retention holster. The times I drew to ready vs. the times I drew to directly on target on actual human adversaries were literally in the several hundred to one ratio. Real crooks will screw with you with various fake movements, false actions and distractions. I want a hardwired efficient draw to a position to deal with that. I often changed the dynamic of an engagement in a split second with some well versed prison shitbird by seamlessly going from a unknown encounter and engagement, to weapon out in a solid ready position while giving verbal commands (EFFICIENTLY speaking and shooting or operating a firearm is a learned skill). If a suspect is trying to confuse and distract you while they are assessing whether or not they can get the unholstered firearm out of their waistband or pocket is going have that process interrupted when they are now facing a person who is very prepared to counter that action. Crooks aren't stupid, they are trying to act like they are doing something innocent or without threat. The reality is that most really good "gunfighters" win a majority or their gunfights without a shot being fired. They are won through gun-handling and threat management. It is all part of the "big picture".

Make no mistake, I have seen some horrific "risk management" in how people "present" firearms into an altercation. The bad guys are assessing this as well, and depending on what happens, your actions will be scrutinized to the most minute detail afterwards. It is why I never missed an opportunity to have my people work on the draw to ready. It is why we practiced drawing to not shooting or interrupted (and this got screwed up on the square range enough to warrant needing practice to break bad habits) process. As I believe Southnarc will back me up on, things are radically different in dealing with live people than one dimensional cardboard. FOF is really only a mild substitute for the real thing. The reality is that you need to be running on "auto pilot" during ALL confrontations and that auto-pilot had better be correctly programed.

ToddG
08-06-2012, 01:26 PM
Todd I think this is really where it's at. The only thing I can definitively say at this point is that the guys who have repeated exposure to the pressure from the evolutions hardly ever do it.

That's where my intuition leads me, as well, but it's obviously subject to a bias in favor of practicing the way I do already. Nonetheless, in my experience it's the people who've seen & dealt with the compact space problem who handle it well, not folks who work on drawing to a (different) static position.


Again, from a strictly LEO point of view-The ability to rapidly and in a highly efficient manner draw to a position of domination or advantage when dealing with a possible armed unknown (and to do it safely and with the finger going immediately to register) is a big advantage.

So taking this as a given, the question remains whether dedicated time practicing that draw-to-ready turns in real benefits. Someone who practices his presentation to the point he's got a "good draw" has already built up a lot of reps getting to the gun, getting the gun out of the holster, and getting the gun into play. I'd argue that continuing to improve his draw stroke simultaneously continues to improve his ability to draw without firing, while the opposite is less true.

Dagga Boy
08-06-2012, 01:51 PM
Todd, I found that the easiest way to draw to the low ready was to simply make that draw to the low ready part of your shooting qualification or drill. After making eyes, and ears safe and explaining the drill we would have a definitive "Draw to" whatever I wanted, which was usually a low ready. Half of the qual I used started from a ready while half started from the holster. The key to this is to be serious about it and treat it as part of the drill that must be efficiently executed, and not just go through the motions. Post shooting drills had a very specific set of actions as well prior to holstering. I notice than many folks just haphazardly pull their gun out without purpose or proper intent and mindset, and then get ready for the dirll. This to me is a waste of training time when you can be as serious about the "Gun Handling" leg of the Combat Triad as you are about the "Marksmanship" leg. Why not train both? Why rush to holster when you can spend some time working on post shooting procedures and TTP's with very little loss of time. I have seen people do a great job of winning a gunfight and revert to sloppy or poorly (or worse non) trained procedures on post shooting and proceed to turn a "win" into a "lose" at their own hand. I look at the case of a SWAT officer from a neighboring agency who after doing an efficient job of taking down a bad guy proceeded to shoot himself in the leg on a poorly executed re-holster. If we take the cases stated early of people "shooting" from the ready prior to a go signal just due to the "stress":confused: of a timed exercise, I would venture that many could use some dedicated time to their gun handling and "non-shooting" weapons handling skills. Trust me, my gun handling skills and tactics have played a FAR more significant role in winning encounters than my marksmanship skills. I don't give gun handling and assumed "turning on a light switch" status, as i have seen far to many people flat f*ck up the simplest of things when a huge amount of real stress, confusion and multi-tasking get added to it. I have been in situations where the simple act of turning on a light switch would have been a daunting task.

Dagga Boy
08-06-2012, 02:01 PM
Let me add a thought. Thinking back to "getting ready for work". I would always conduct a loaded chamber verification prior to work. I had a routine where I would do a draw to the low ready at speed, retract the pistol back to retention, conduct the verification, pause, reholster and snap up the holster. I got to check my draw, holster function, set my auto pilot, check and confirm my pistol's status, and ensure that pistol was properly secured in the holster-correctly. I took a "routine" thing and made it a quick training and verification drill.

Additionally, I would also argue in regards to those who have a solid draw to firing would have no issue on draw to the ready that there is a counter to that. I never had an issue on knowing when to draw and go right to a target that was "fixin to get shot" and it came very natural. The big challenge was knowing when to deploy based on factors that were still evolving on when to actually draw to a ready on a possible suspect. Just something to think about.

Wayne Dobbs
08-06-2012, 03:03 PM
Todd, et. al.,

Without getting embroiled whether practicing a draw to ready is necessary or not, I believe that every cop and virtually every armed citizen needs to know how to execute such a move as part of their gun handling skills inventory. During a long LE career, I executed hundreds of draws to the ready to accomplish various tactical and "communications" needs. The overwhelming experience from this was shocked compliance on the part of the suspect(s) being drawn on. I recall a couple where suspects aggressing towards me literally skidded their heels to a stop when there was a crisp, efficient move from holster to ready, a serious look and a solid, albeit sometimes profane command! One of those suspects drawn on shot and killed a Dallas PD officer about six weeks later, but he couldn't drop his butcher knife fast enough that night behind his nasty apartment when I drew to the ready on him.

The best fights are those that get shortstopped and stalled before the bad guy can successfully launch on you and I remain convinced that a smooth draw to a ready position is an important skill in winning dangerous confrontations.

DocGKR
08-10-2012, 01:48 PM
Fully concur with what Nyeti and Wayne Dobbs wrote above--while working Patrol, aggressively drawing to a strong low ready ended multiple encounters before they became a gunfight, as the bad-guys immediately backed down and ceased their hostile activities.

Corlissimo
08-11-2012, 02:55 AM
Thank you gentlemen. Your feedback and insight have given me some real food for thought. I don't want to overly complicate my training... simple is usually better and more easily ingrained. My original question was whether there was any real practical value in training "draw to low ready" for a civilian CCW with no LE/.mil background.

That said, I am going to try adding some draw to low ready reps to my weekly practice routine. I'm thinking that just 10-20 reps/week is a good place to start. Before I do that, I'm going to do some baseline timing of this drill just to see how much my speed and smoothness change over time. At the moment, this seems like a worthwhile endeavor, but who knows if it will remain so.

I also like nyeti's comments concerning having someone call out which type of draw to execute during training reps. I look forward to seeing how this impacts my skill level in this area. Now I just need to find a training partner around here. Maybe the little woman will help out.

Thank you again to each of you for providing your experiences and insight on this topic.

JodyH
08-12-2012, 04:35 PM
If you shoot IDPA or IPSC you can "practice" a low or high ready draw every time you load and make ready.
I do a near full speed draw to high compressed ready as part of my load and make ready routine.
Either warn your RO or slowly build up your draw speed as the day goes on. That way they don't freak out when you whip yo gat out.

I also do this as part of my CCW undressing routine at the end of the day.
I face the door of the gun safe (my designated backstop) and do a near full speed draw to compressed ready, pause for a second or two then walk my gun over to the nightstand.
My live draw backstop (safe door) is NOT the same backstop I use for dry fire practice. I do everything possible to minimize getting my mental wires crossed and I don't want to be staring at my normal dry fire target when I'm drawing my loaded carry gun.

This way I get several repetitions of drawing to a ready position, but I'm not spending valuable range time on it.

UNM1136
08-13-2012, 12:23 PM
Fully concur with what Nyeti and Wayne Dobbs wrote above--while working Patrol, aggressively drawing to a strong low ready ended multiple encounters before they became a gunfight, as the bad-guys immediately backed down and ceased their hostile activities.

Some of this is sound tactically, some legally (my state differentiates between show of force and actually using force on the use of force continuum: both are considered a use of force, and each must be justified). We also have stages of qualifications shot from low ready, and those from the holster. I think the trick is getting adequate reps of each so that you are able to execute what you intend to do without thinking through each step in the process. As we get more data on real world engagements, we can adapt from a well practiced base and make modifications as necessary.

I, too, have seen cops who shoot faster than they can think. While teaching a failure drill we remind students to pause and decide prior to taking the head shot because things can and do change that quickly. On the rifle range we are also yelling at students to "get the gun out of your face" because they break and scan and block a good part of what they are supposed to be looking for, like a fallen bad guy, because they pull their sights off of the static, paper target and waggle the gun around.

Recently we got an academy class on the range, who had been practicing dry fire for weeks. They were using M&P9s, and they had practiced so much dry fire, that on the range more than one resorted to "tap-roll-rack", even though their gun went bang while pointed at the target. So training to draw to fire makes more sense from an officer survival standpoint, but practicing drawing to the low ready prevents the thoughtless trigger press as they complete their draw. I like Nyeti's (good to see you here, D) idea of having changing requirements based on command.

I have never shot another human being in the 20 years I have been carrying a gun. I have drawn to a low ready, and even to a sight picture on some. Even when I thought I was about to kill a man with a baseball bat, the OODA loop saved me, because I was constantly updating my situation and evaluating the appropriateness of my decision. In the time it took me to recognize the threat and draw he began to turn before I grabbed my sights. A shot or two to his side/back may have been excusable, but not justifiable. For cops, both are necessary. They have to be able to at any point during their draw change their mind from "draw" to "shoot" and vice versa. CCW/citizens have the same need to a large extent. I really like decisional shooting drills, whether as simple as having the range master yell "gun","challenge", ect. to more elaborate drills with shoot/no shoot targets, numbered targets, ect. The agonizing thing is that if you "always" do the same thing over and over, there will come a time where you will need the other and not be able to accomplish it under the conditions.

pat

Corlissimo
08-16-2012, 11:56 AM
Some of this is sound tactically, some legally (my state differentiates between show of force and actually using force on the use of force continuum: both are considered a use of force, and each must be justified). We also have stages of qualifications shot from low ready, and those from the holster. I think the trick is getting adequate reps of each so that you are able to execute what you intend to do without thinking through each step in the process. As we get more data on real world engagements, we can adapt from a well practiced base and make modifications as necessary.

I, too, have seen cops who shoot faster than they can think. While teaching a failure drill we remind students to pause and decide prior to taking the head shot because things can and do change that quickly. On the rifle range we are also yelling at students to "get the gun out of your face" because they break and scan and block a good part of what they are supposed to be looking for, like a fallen bad guy, because they pull their sights off of the static, paper target and waggle the gun around.

Recently we got an academy class on the range, who had been practicing dry fire for weeks. They were using M&P9s, and they had practiced so much dry fire, that on the range more than one resorted to "tap-roll-rack", even though their gun went bang while pointed at the target. So training to draw to fire makes more sense from an officer survival standpoint, but practicing drawing to the low ready prevents the thoughtless trigger press as they complete their draw. I like Nyeti's (good to see you here, D) idea of having changing requirements based on command.

I have never shot another human being in the 20 years I have been carrying a gun. I have drawn to a low ready, and even to a sight picture on some. Even when I thought I was about to kill a man with a baseball bat, the OODA loop saved me, because I was constantly updating my situation and evaluating the appropriateness of my decision. In the time it took me to recognize the threat and draw he began to turn before I grabbed my sights. A shot or two to his side/back may have been excusable, but not justifiable. For cops, both are necessary. They have to be able to at any point during their draw change their mind from "draw" to "shoot" and vice versa. CCW/citizens have the same need to a large extent. I really like decisional shooting drills, whether as simple as having the range master yell "gun","challenge", ect. to more elaborate drills with shoot/no shoot targets, numbered targets, ect. The agonizing thing is that if you "always" do the same thing over and over, there will come a time where you will need the other and not be able to accomplish it under the conditions.

pat

Thanks for this Pat. All of it just makes me wish for a way to participate in a true LE training class at least once, and preferably once every couple years or so.

Mitchell, Esq.
08-16-2012, 02:25 PM
It was not a big deal on the range, but if the situation had been a potential lethal force encounter then I believe all those shots were actually "negligent discharges". Mitchel could tell us all what the legal ramifications of having an ND (even with the muzzle averted) in a situation which is legally a "don't shoot, yet". The people who were doing this were all good shooters, all shots on target, small groups but were missing some mental stress practice.


In a civilian context, if it is a "no shoot" situation, I would want to know why the weapon was drawn in the first place?

Are you holding someone at gunpoint why was a threat,and then ceased to become one, searching the house for your kids or did someone preemptively draw to LR to establish situational dominance, yet not need to fire yet (example of that would be a crowd approaching who can be considered lethal force, so your display of a firearm is an attempt to gain parity, and prevent the beating from occuring)?

The result of the ND in any of these situations is hard to tell w/o more detailed info; however, once the shot has been fired, you have just entered the legal system, even if you and the other party would have been content to break it off at the display of a gun.

A round got fired. Someone's likely to report it. Welcome to explaining what happened, and nobody's going to be that sympathetic to introducing a bullet into the environment.

Drawing, holding the weapon before shooting, and shooting itself needs to be understood and justified within the context of the sitaution.

In some situations it may be appropriate to got draw & go to LR...in others, the only reasonable thing to do is shoot...or not draw in the first place.

This is something that should probably be worked out in a FOF/scenario based class, instead of looking at it in the abstract.

The best answer to "Why did you do what you did?" is always going to be "Based on my training and experience..."...so get the experience, or at least the education.

JRas
08-17-2012, 04:35 PM
I'm not sure if you need to "train" for it. I'm sure if you practice drawing and shooting a handgun; you will be fine drawing to low-ready.

I think it definitively has it's place, even being a civilian. Imminent danger is the time. You're at the mall with your family, you hear shots ring off. What do you do?

It's faster to shoot from a low-ready, compressed ready, etc than to draw and shoot. You've already taking the draw out of the equation.

ford.304
08-17-2012, 05:18 PM
I'm not sure if you need to "train" for it. I'm sure if you practice drawing and shooting a handgun; you will be fine drawing to low-ready.

I think it definitively has it's place, even being a civilian. Imminent danger is the time. You're at the mall with your family, you hear shots ring off. What do you do?

It's faster to shoot from a low-ready, compressed ready, etc than to draw and shoot. You've already taking the draw out of the equation.

This does speak to a secondary point - that civilians should practice shooting from low ready more than they necessarily do. I know for a while I considered low ready just a poor substitute from practicing from holster. Then I shot rimfire steel challenge from low ready and saw that my first shot times were nearly as long as from a holster. It's something that *should* be a very similar motion, but that doesn't mean it *is* without practice.

ToddG
08-17-2012, 06:47 PM
You're at the mall with your family, you hear shots ring off. What do you do?

Try not to look like someone who just started ringing shots at the mall...

Finding, identifying, and deciding what to do to the BGs is going to take more than enough time for me to get my gun out. In the meantime, I don't want to look like the crazy gun-wielding guy to (a) the police or (b) the other thousand or so people at the mall. Just because you know you're a good guy and not involved in the mayhem doesn't mean anyone else knows that. All they see is a guy with a gun in a place where some guy is shooting people...

Furthermore, with no immediate identified threat, all that gun is doing is stealing me of one of my hands that I might need for any number of other things like dragging my wife through a doorway that I have to hold open.

Corlissimo
08-17-2012, 10:16 PM
Try not to look like someone who just started ringing shots at the mall...

Finding, identifying, and deciding what to do to the BGs is going to take more than enough time for me to get my gun out. In the meantime, I don't want to look like the crazy gun-wielding guy to (a) the police or (b) the other thousand or so people at the mall. Just because you know you're a good guy and not involved in the mayhem doesn't mean anyone else knows that. All they see is a guy with a gun in a place where some guy is shooting...

Good point. How do I know that I'm the ONLY CCW in the area?

I certainly wouldn't want to get shot by anyone, especially someone from this forum, just because I pulled my gun at a tactically inopportune time. :eek:


--
Sent from my personal Droid. Please excuse any typos, my Droid's kinda stupid. (°_°)

Dagga Boy
08-18-2012, 12:00 AM
Thanks for making that point Todd. This is part of the reason that your gun handling skills and mindset are as important (and often times more) than your shooting skill.

As Jody H stated, you can get a lot of "training" for this stuff even when you are not on the range. Its about taking as many opportunities to do everything right every time you handle a firearm. I noted in a recent article on Scott Reitz and ITTS that the author was a little surprised that he got mentored by Scotty about not being aggressive enough on his draw to the ready. It is a good example of just being aggressive and clean on all your handling.

JRas
08-21-2012, 09:50 AM
Try not to look like someone who just started ringing shots at the mall...

Finding, identifying, and deciding what to do to the BGs is going to take more than enough time for me to get my gun out. In the meantime, I don't want to look like the crazy gun-wielding guy to (a) the police or (b) the other thousand or so people at the mall. Just because you know you're a good guy and not involved in the mayhem doesn't mean anyone else knows that. All they see is a guy with a gun in a place where some guy is shooting people...

Furthermore, with no immediate identified threat, all that gun is doing is stealing me of one of my hands that I might need for any number of other things like dragging my wife through a doorway that I have to hold open.

That is the risk you take, unfortunately I don't see any real way to prevent it. You're right, most people are going to see a guy with a gun in a place where someone is shooting. Are you shooting at people though, or are you trying to get people to saftey?

I'm not saying go directly for your gun and draw to low-ready. I believe the situation dictates the reaction. How close are the shots? Are you close to an exit? is that exit safe, or is a BG waiting for people to exit? Are there multiple shooters, and so on? Are you saying your wife is wounded and needs to be dragged/carried? If you need both hands and no immediate threat is present, holster it and take care of the situation. This isn't Edward Fortyhands ;)

I'd rather have my gun out and walk up on the BG than walk up empty handed. If I turn the corner with my family, there stands a guy with an AK and body armor I believe he has the upper hand.

In my opinion, there are too many variables to say which is the correct action. Let me ask Police Officers here, If you get a call 'Shots Fired' do you roll up holstered?

JodyH
08-21-2012, 10:23 AM
Try not to look like someone who just started ringing shots at the mall...

Finding, identifying, and deciding what to do to the BGs is going to take more than enough time for me to get my gun out. In the meantime, I don't want to look like the crazy gun-wielding guy to (a) the police or (b) the other thousand or so people at the mall. Just because you know you're a good guy and not involved in the mayhem doesn't mean anyone else knows that. All they see is a guy with a gun in a place where some guy is shooting people...
Good topic for another thread is training to get into and shoot from "covert ready" positions such as behind the leg.
I find it harder to subtly draw to a concealed ready than to aggressivly draw to a low ready.

UNM1136
08-22-2012, 07:26 AM
Let me ask Police Officers here, If you get a call 'Shots Fired' do you roll up holstered?

Yep. My hands are kinda full with the rifle as a general rule.

pat

ToddG
08-22-2012, 07:48 AM
I'd rather have my gun out and walk up on the BG than walk up empty handed. If I turn the corner with my family, there stands a guy with an AK and body armor I believe he has the upper hand.

Not trying to be snarky, but I'm pretty sure a guy with an AK and body armor is going to have the upper hand regardless of whether your pistol is in the holster or in your hand. I could just as easily "What If" it into he's more likely to shoot you immediately if he sees you're armed, for instance. Is that true? Anybody's guess.

Maybe I've just seen too many people AD into non-threat targets during matches, photorealistic targets in shoot house scenarios, and live actors in FOF. I've also had the excellent opportunity (in FOF) to experience first hand what happens when, during an armed search, a police officer called out to me and I turned innocently toward him with my gun in my hand in a safe direction. Sadly, Sims hurt just as much coming out of a "good guy" gun as any other. I've heard tell that's true of real bullets, too.


In my opinion, there are too many variables to say which is the correct action.

That's always a fair statement when we talk about scenarios like this. For anyone who was around on the old Tactics-L email group, you'll remember it was a problem that came up all the time. Someone proffers a scenario then everyone jumped to conclusions or added their own (unspoken) accents... then argued about whose response was the right one. :cool:

My comment was specifically directed toward the limited information provided at the time: I'm at the mall with family and simply hear shots fired. Again, under that circumstance, I am not drawing my gun yet.


Let me ask Police Officers here, If you get a call 'Shots Fired' do you roll up holstered?

A uniformed officer isn't nearly as likely to be misidentified by either the police or the panicked civilians in the mall.

Wayne Dobbs
08-22-2012, 08:04 AM
In my opinion, there are too many variables to say which is the correct action. Let me ask Police Officers here, If you get a call 'Shots Fired' do you roll up holstered?


No, I didn't roll up with a holstered pistol, BUT I was arriving in a (usually) marked unit or a plain wrap that was clearly a cop ride. I was in uniform and accompanied by other cops WHO KNEW ME. In plain clothes, you're not identifiable and if the cops are coming to an active shooter call, they are looking for a suspect with a gun and they are clicked over to the fire on sight mode, because their active shooter training has emphasized rapid movement to the shooter and rapid neutralization of same. Most of them aren't in the talking mode and whether that's right or wrong, it is a reality.

Even with all of that background, you ought to know that many of the cops shot in situations where multiple officers are on scene are shot by other officers' gunfire. That realization coupled with the "fog of war" that exists at those situations can lead to real tragedies. I can clearly recall a couple of times I put a muzzle on other officers during searching activities because they were somewhere they weren't supposed to be and we surprised each other. I can also recall an FBI agent (whom I knew from a Task Force assignment) who nearly got shot by Dallas PD Patrol officers after the agent, who was black and in plain clothes, pulled his pistol on some other black street gangsters in downtown Dallas. I know of a surburban Dallas area Narcotics Detective that got MP5'ved to death by a Dallas PD SWAT officer when he improperly intruded into a raid location, gun drawn and was cut down. The list can go on, but I hope you get the idea.

I'm in agreement that any of us with skill, training, willingness and honor would step up and confront one of these monsters, but when you do that realize that you can get misidentified as the monster...

PT Doc
08-22-2012, 07:30 PM
I find it harder to subtly draw to a concealed ready than to aggressivly draw to a low ready.

Sonny Puzikas demonstrated a technique that addresses this very well. In a normal drawstroke, the arm raise and especially the elbow bend are the giveaways. Sonny establishes his grip while holstered and rather than raise his arm/elbow, he lowers his hips. Very little arm movement and the pistol ends up behind the leg. If done while moving and slightly bladed away from who ever is watching, it's damn hard to pick up.

abu fitna
08-22-2012, 11:28 PM
Subtle variant draw are worth practise. But that is different from low ready as had been discussed.

This is also where draw to covert SUL (support hand concealing weapon) close to body can also be very helpful. Done right with a small weapon it can be surprisingly effective to avoid being spotted in a crowd, so long as eyes are off for the first second. And it allows roll to firing grip quickly so long as one doesn't muzzle yourself on the way.

Of course, the instructors and ro's using low ready as a crutch to avoid addressing safety in weapon handling tend to hate this technique even more than other options. But the conversation in this thread has moved quite far from that earlier discussion, and into much more legitimate why's.

JRas
08-27-2012, 07:55 PM
I've got the answer :p

concealed weapon badges
http://www.center-fire.com/images/badge%20images/txlarge.jpg
it gets better
http://www.firearmstalk.com/images/3/9/0/8/3/thumb2_02929-645.jpg

TCinVA
08-30-2012, 06:56 AM
The people who market that stuff as effective ought to be beaten with a rubber hose.

My rule on active shooter situations:

- If the active shooter is made manifest in my immediate proximity, deal with him as quickly as possible. Then as quickly as is practical, reholster. Why? Because sooner or later a lot of edgy cops with firearms training that ranges from bad to mediocre are going to show up with drawn weapons looking for a dude with a gun. I don't really want to fit that description because I'm highly likely to get shot. I've already narrowly avoided a police issue .40 caliber round in my chest thanks only to the double action trigger of a Sig P226. I don't want to push it any further.

- If the active shooter is not made manifest in my immediate proximity, then I have absolutely no idea what in blue heck is going on and I'm probably going to seek a safe retreat as quickly as possible...while my weapon is still in the holster. Again, if I'm trying to get out of dodge I might just cross the path of the police there to find the shooter. Having a gun in my hand would be a bad thing. Playing "hunt the bad guy" sounds pretty simple on the internet when people are describing events as they happened in the past. Making sense of what's happening in the moment, I've noticed, tends to be considerably more difficult if you aren't in extremely close proximity to the beginning of the event. Sooner or later the police will show up and if they show up while I'm playing hunt the bad guy with a drawn gun, I'm probably going to be perceived as the threat. That ends badly for me.

I don't know that anyone keeps an official count because it's unpleasant, but the truth of the matter is that there are a lot of cops who were off-duty or otherwise out of uniform that have been killed by uniformed police officers who couldn't tell them from the bad guys. Good guys do not have a visible halo, and they can get shot. Natural human reactions to stimulus take on a whole different and more ominous look to them when the interacting parties have weapons in their hand. (See Todd's example above) Thus it behooves you, the dude who isn't in uniform, to put that heater away as quickly as is humanly possible. If there are wounded, try as best you can to tend to them. A guy with no gun in his hand tending to the injured tends not to look like a threat or possible threat.

If you've engaged a bad guy or you're helping treat the wounded, expect to have guns pointed at you and commands yelled at you. Expect to get proned out and cuffed. Do not expect this to be a terribly gentle process. Now is not the time for a debate or to attempt to explain things. Now is the moment to be meek and cooperative and do what the edgy people with guns tell you to do, lest you be killed.

Corlissimo
08-30-2012, 12:13 PM
Subtle variant draw are worth practise. But that is different from low ready as had been discussed.

This is also where draw to covert SUL (support hand concealing weapon) close to body can also be very helpful. Done right with a small weapon it can be surprisingly effective to avoid being spotted in a crowd, so long as eyes are off for the first second. And it allows roll to firing grip quickly so long as one doesn't muzzle yourself on the way.

Of course, the instructors and ro's using low ready as a crutch to avoid addressing safety in weapon handling tend to hate this technique even more than other options. But the conversation in this thread has moved quite far from that earlier discussion, and into much more legitimate why's.

In my mind it would be worth working out the covert SUL safety issues. I think the last part of your post points out something that is really a shame, namely that people who are supposedly "educated" in firearms handling will not necessarily educate on viable options. If this is due to personal bias then shame on them. If it's due to official range policy, then their hands are tied (if they are not the ones who wrote policy) and the issue becomes one better suited to being addressed via personal instruction.