Israel retiring the Tavor in favor of the M4

[LittleLebowski]

Maybe they got a good deal on M4s from the Taliban?

https://www.israelhayom.com/2021/09/05/parting-shots-after-only-a-decade-idf-retires-tavor-rifle/



For years, the Israeli Tavor rifle was marketed as the rifle of the future, and many of the IDF's infantry fighters proudly carried it, enthusiastic about its convenience and its futuristic look.

However, just 10 years after its integration into the Israeli army, the IDF will soon begin transitioning the infantry brigades that currently use the Tavor and micro-Tavor to the American M4, known as a "flat-top" rifle.

One of the IDF's infantry brigades is expected to receive the M4 rifle in the near future, followed by the others. The Israeli-made rifles will not be retired completely, rather will be transferred to the army's reserve brigades.

[blues]

Dropped once?

(Too soon?)

Don't mind me...I'm just a bit angry.

[Bergeron]

This continues the trend of countries adopting a bullpup, and then retiring it in favor a traditional rifle. Is there anyone who has a choice (Russia, China, etc. obviously excepted) who is using anything other than AR-pattern?

While I doubt that NGSW ever fully replaces M4/AR pattern, this does not bode well for the General Dynamics design.

[37th Mass]

Is there anyone who has a choice (Russia, China, etc. obviously excepted) who is using anything other than AR-pattern?

Singapore is using their indigenously designed SAR 21 in addition to AR’s.

[Kyle Reese]

The Brits are still clinging to the L85 family for general issue, but specialist units get Diemaco C8s.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[HCM]

The Brits are still clinging to the L85 family for general issue, but specialist units get Diemaco C8s.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Again - anyone with choice eschews bull pups.

[HCM]

Singapore is using their indigenously designed SAR 21 in addition to AR’s.

Singapore seeing a lot of combat ?

Bullpups tend to be one of those ideas that brief well but don’t work out in practice.

[TGS]

As for using a bullpup, I believe the Aussies still use a variant of the Steyr AUG.

China uses a bullpup....they had a choice and still do, as they're still producing conventional pattern rifles as well.

As for not using a variant of the AR, tons of countries, even with enemies of the west excepted.

[HCM]

As for using a bullpup, I believe the Aussies still use a variant of the Steyr AUG.

As for not using a variant of the AR, tons of countries.

The Aussies and the Austrians. But like the UK, their SF units which have a choice use M4s.

New Zealand dumped their AUGs for LMT ARs. The Irish use the AUG but again their SF use M4 pattern guns (HK416s).

Any other significant users of the AUG ?

Guatemala replaced their Galils with Tavors.

[blues]

I was issued a Steyr AUG from my outfit back in the old days. We used it on SRT but other than perimeter, out in the Everglades or while on a bust team patrolling in Black Hawks over the Atlantic, it had little relevance for most urban environments, imho.

It never really won my affection despite everyone thinking what a cool rifle it was back then. That said, I never had any serious issues with it either.

[LittleLebowski]

I was issued a Steyr AUG from my outfit back in the old days. We used it on SRT but other than perimeter, out in the Everglades or while on a bust team patrolling in Black Hawks over the Atlantic, it had little relevance for most urban environments, imho.

It never really won my affection despite everyone thinking what a cool rifle it was back then. That said, I never had any serious issues with it either.

The AUG would be my bullpup choice for sure if it wasn’t so expensive.

[HCM]

As for using a bullpup, I believe the Aussies still use a variant of the Steyr AUG.

China uses a bullpup....they had a choice and still do, as they're still producing conventional pattern rifles as well.

As for not using a variant of the AR, tons of countries, even with enemies of the west excepted.

But China hasn’t fought a major war since Korea. Border spats with Russia and Vietnam not withstanding. The Chinese themselves acknowledge this is detrimental to their military’s institutional knowledge, a condition the refer to as “the peace disease.”

[HCM]

The AUG would be my bullpup choice for sure if it wasn’t so expensive.

AUG is the best of the bullpups.

[TGS]

The Aussies and the Austrians. But like the UK, their SF units which have a choice use M4s.

New Zealand dumped their AUGs for LMT ARs. The Irish use the AUG but again their SF use M4 pattern guns (HK416s).

Any other significant users of the AUG ?

Guatemala replaced their Galils with Tavors.

Yeah, I didn't mention the Austrians since it's their domestic design, and since there's always a need to choose your own rifle over a foreign one I thought it didn't really fit into the "has a choice" category. Same with Belgium and the P90/F2000. Last time I was there, the military was carrying both the SCAR and the F2000.

And, to be fair, a good number of countries use the AR for reasons beyond their own personal choice or preference. When you can't really afford guns (or could use that money in other projects), and the US offers you free small arms in exchange for anti-communist and anti-terrorism policies, you take what they give you....that being the M16 and M4.

That's actually the exact case with how Israel had a mixed bag of Galils and AR15s to begin with, actually.

[blues]

The AUG would be my bullpup choice for sure if it wasn’t so expensive.

Yeah. If they had offered it to me to keep, (or even buy at a reasonable price), I wouldn't have said no.

All I have left of it is the little bottle, which I still use for Hoppes #9 solvent.

[TGS]

Yeah. If they had offered it to me to keep, (or even buy at a reasonable price), I wouldn't have said no.

All I have left of it is the little bottle, which I still use for Hoppes #9 solvent.

*notifies DHS OIG*

:p

[blues]

*notifies DHS OIG*

:p

I knew that bottle would come back to haunt me. ;)

[Bergeron]

China uses a bullpup....they had a choice and still do, as they're still producing conventional pattern rifles as well.



The Forgotten Weapons mechanical and range reviews of the QBZ-97 were eye-opening in discussing the flaws of the design.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HRvV4v1FjAo


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yYoDHe8Kv4U

[TGS]

The Forgotten Weapons mechanical and range reviews of the QBZ-97 were eye-opening in discussing the flaws of the design.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HRvV4v1FjAo


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yYoDHe8Kv4U

Similarly, their other domestically produced weapons are abortions too.

The dudes I worked with for the last year were armed with Chinese copies of Soviet weaponry, supplied as aid. You'd never think someone could turn the Tokarev, AK, and SKS into unreliable garbage, but then the Chinese come out of left field saying, "Hold my baijiu"....

[LittleLebowski]

Similarly, their other domestically produced weapons are abortions too.

The dudes I worked with for the last year were armed with Chinese copies of Soviet weaponry, supplied as aid. You'd never think someone could turn the Tokarev, AK, and SKS into unreliable garbage, but then the Chinese come out of left field saying, "Hold my baijiu"....

American gun culture can and does pay off in trickle down format to our police and military. Failure2Stop and I had a good chat about that regarding his time spent instructing the Royal Marines.

[HeavyDuty]

I’m not really surprised. I don’t have a Tavor (mine’s an X-95) but it makes a lot more sense for the Israelis to use M4s - easier to maintain, for one.

[LittleLebowski]

Giving Back once witnessed a bullpup go Boom next to a soldiers face. I believe it was an SA80.

[ccmdfd]

I was issued a Steyr AUG from my outfit back in the old days. We used it on SRT but other than perimeter, out in the Everglades or while on a bust team patrolling in Black Hawks over the Atlantic, it had little relevance for most urban environments, imho.

It never really won my affection despite everyone thinking what a cool rifle it was back then. That said, I never had any serious issues with it either.

Could you expound on why you found it not relevant to the urban environment?

Thanks

[blues]

Could you expound on why you found it not relevant to the urban environment?

Thanks

It's simply a matter of the types of environments we found ourselves performing within. Given my druthers, I'd opt for the MP5 I was assigned for entries and other tactical assignments. At longer ranges, like out in the Everglades where I found myself on the perimeter of a home site harboring a fugitive, it was a different story and the AUG and its scope came in handy.

DEA's SMGs or our CAR-15's were other options available as well.

Everyone has their own preferences. The environment being operated within dictates much of the decision making.

[Joe in PNG]

Similarly, their other domestically produced weapons are abortions too.

The dudes I worked with for the last year were armed with Chinese copies of Soviet weaponry, supplied as aid. You'd never think someone could turn the Tokarev, AK, and SKS into unreliable garbage, but then the Chinese come out of left field saying, "Hold my baijiu"....

Years ago, I had a Norinco NHM-91 with thumbhole stock. Until then, I heard tell that AK's were the reliable, but that one wasn't.

Dumped it and got a Romak side folder with the classic canted front sight. That one was reliable.

[rcbusmc24]

Most Chinese manufactured stuff is pretty much garbage.. but they do have the ability to make a lot of it.... plus the people to expend operating it...

[VT1032]

As for using a bullpup, I believe the Aussies still use a variant of the Steyr AUG.

China uses a bullpup....they had a choice and still do, as they're still producing conventional pattern rifles as well.

As for not using a variant of the AR, tons of countries, even with enemies of the west excepted.China is beginning to replace the QBZ95 with a conventional layout rifle, as part of a greater infantry overhaul they are doing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QBZ-191

I'm wondering if these will be colt guns or if IWI moved into the AR game for more than just the US market?

[Joe in PNG]

Most Chinese manufactured stuff is pretty much garbage.. but they do have the ability to make a lot of it.... plus the people to expend operating it...

That can be good or bad. The Imperial Russian Steamroller that gave the pre-WWI German General staff nightmares comes to mind... as does Mao's human waves during Korea.

[TGS]

I'm wondering if these will be colt guns or if IWI moved into the AR game for more than just the US market?

Huh? I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

Colt would never produce weapons for China....that'd be illegal, and obviously not approved by State. Not to mention the QBZ-191 isn't of Colt design, license or patent to begin with.

China already makes clones of IWI products as well....at least, that's the impression I got from seeing the now defunct Fuerza Federales in Mexico armed with Galil SARs and Tavors with Chinese script on them.

[rcbusmc24]

It means exactly what it means... perfect can be the enemy of good enough in some cases... and you can't always gauge others equipment decisions based on what we in the west think of our induvidual rifleman and his survivalibility... most others dont really care about that to be honest....

[VT1032]

Huh? I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

Colt would never produce weapons for China....that'd be illegal, and obviously not approved by State. Not to mention the QBZ-191 isn't of Colt design, license or patent to begin with.

China already makes clones of IWI products as well....at least, that's the impression I got from seeing the now defunct Fuerza Federales in Mexico armed with Galil SARs and Tavors with Chinese script on them.Oh no, I meant for the IDF. I was referring back to the original artical.

The new Chinese rifle is being made by Norinco.

[rcbusmc24]

IWI already makes a AR clone for the US market, but I'm pretty sure thats a product produced in Harrisonburg PA by their US subsidary.... It is way cheaper for them to buy US made ARs than start domestic production .... been that way for a while.

[fatdog]

The bullpup seems like a powerful idea until you live with one is my conclusion.

I grabbed a Tavor 21 when the first ones became available here a few years back. As with most bullpups the trigger was awful, I found it to be awkward and unbalanced trying to mount the rifle and shoot off hand, too many sharp edges, a poor cheek weld, lots of gas to the face, and average accuracy, so I sent it down the road. I really wanted to like it but after a couple of years of shooting it a lot, I did not care for it. Before that I spent a fortune modifying one of the Bushmaster Austrailian (Eden Pine) bull pups, shortening the barrel, lightening cuts, etc. etc. and it still stank as an ungainly thing, although it ran fine. A close friend and shooting buddy purchased the FN 2000 thing and after some range time with it I found it worse than the others in terms of being comfortable to carry, mount, shoot easily. The AUG is the bullpup I cannot bring myself to sell, but I doubt someone can ever sell me another one of any design.

I know a guy who is a reservist captain in IDF and he told me he hated the Tavor and wanted his M4 carbine back that he had carried when he was on active duty.

[JohnO]

Maybe they got a good deal on M4s from the Taliban?


That would be the greatest irony ever.

I say this because our military was stopped from using Israeli (IMI) ammo to shoot Tallywackers. Apparently it was bad form and bad optics for US troops to shoot Muslims with Israeli ammo. So I guess we had to show them we cared and use only good ole US manufactured ammo to send them to their final destination.

[Coyotesfan97]

At one point we had four AUGs on our SWAT team. They were originally for the sniper observers but they got transitioned to our entry guys. I worked with two guys that carried them. They were incredibly proficient with them. They had very fast reloads. I liked the AUGS but I was carrying a HK53 and didn’t want to give that up.

The AUGs got shot enough that they needed new parts that just weren’t out there. We switched to M4s and all the AUGs got retired.

[TGS]

I say this because our military was stopped from using Israeli (IMI) ammo to shoot Tallywackers. Apparently it was bad form and bad optics for US troops to shoot Muslims with Israeli ammo. So I guess we had to show them we cared and use only good ole US manufactured ammo to send them to their final destination.

What is your reference/source for making this statement?

[Joe in PNG]

It means exactly what it means... perfect can be the enemy of good enough in some cases... and you can't always gauge others equipment decisions based on what we in the west think of our induvidual rifleman and his survivalibility... most others dont really care about that to be honest....

Tank historian Nicholas "the Chieftain" Moran once noted that the WWII German panzer armies won most of their battles when they were still using technically inferior tanks.

Leadership, tactics, and training are often more important than numbers or technology- as you probably very well know from personal experience.

[JohnO]

What is your reference/source for making this statement?

I read that moons ago. A little DuckDuckGo foo and here you go.

https://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1159641/posts?page=124


Army Told Not to Use Israeli Bullets in Iraq
myway ^ | June 24,2004
Posted on 6/24/2004, 6:57:10 PM by Woahhs

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Israeli-made bullets bought by the U.S. Army to plug a shortfall should be used for training only, not to fight Muslim guerrillas in Iraq and Afghanistan, U.S. lawmakers told Army generals on Thursday.

Since the Army has other stockpiled ammunition, "by no means, under any circumstances should a round (from Israel) be utilized," said Rep. Neil Abercrombie of Hawaii, the top Democrat on a House of Representatives Armed Services subcommittee with jurisdiction over land forces.

The Army contracted with Israel Military Industries Ltd. in December for $70 million in small-caliber ammunition.

The Israeli firm was one of only two worldwide that could meet U.S. technical specifications and delivery needs, said Brig. Gen. Paul Izzo, the Army's program executive officer for ammunition. The other was East Alton, Illinois-based Winchester Ammunition, which also received a $70 million contract.

Although the Army should not have to worry about "political correctness," Abercrombie was making a valid point about the propaganda pitfalls of using Israeli rounds in the U.S.-declared war on terror, said Rep. Curt Weldon, the Pennsylvania Republican who chairs the subcommittee on tactical air and land forces.

[TGS]

I read that moons ago. A little DuckDuckGo foo and here you go.

https://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1159641/posts?page=124

Oh! Well, I guess it's unpossible then that a congresscritter or two just wanted their name in the news since that ammo, as well as the other substitute standard ammo ordered from Britain and Winchester for the same shortage was slated for training instead of combat use since its.....substitute standard.

0bVIously a librul PC PERVERSHUN of AmuriCAH!

[Ed L]

At one point we had four AUGs on our SWAT team. They were originally for the sniper observers but they got transitioned to our entry guys. I worked with two guys that carried them. They were incredibly proficient with them. They had very fast reloads. I liked the AUGS but I was carrying a HK53 and didn’t want to give that up.

The AUGs got shot enough that they needed new parts that just weren’t out there. We switched to M4s and all the AUGs got retired.

My understanding is that after the import Ban of 1989, which banned the further import of civilian semi-auto AUGs, Steyr did a bad job of supplying spare parts, which effected any AUGs used by police and law enforcement agencies.

[Screwball]

I have a few ARs… but do have one of the Tavor SARs (original Tavor).

It is a nice rifle, and I set it up to suppress… which shooting it after I get my cans will be the deciding factor. It is a short package, so maybe 33” OAL with my Bushwhacker 46. If it works, I’ll keep it around. If not, I’ll look at selling and move money into other stuff.

The biggest issue I had with the Tavor was the trigger. Added cost, but the Geissele trigger pack and bow really made it a dream to shoot.

[DrkBlue]

On the original topic of the M4 replacing the Tavor, not a new story.

The Galil rifle had limited fielding with Israeli Army (IDF)… It was effectively replaced by the US-supplied M-16 in combat units from my understanding. The Galil ended up being a middling export project, with is probably the same story as the Tavor platform.

Although the Galil was the official service rifle of Israel from the mid-1970s to the early 1990s, it was never the principal rifle used (in terms of numbers). Around 1975, 60,000 M16A1s from the U.S. Military Aid Program (MAP) began to arrive in Israel that were quickly integrated into IDF service. The cost of producing the Galil for all IDF forces was very expensive, and Israel continued to purchase M16s and later M4s with military credit from the US, which had replaced many Galils then in service.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMI_Galil

I am far from an expert on the Israeli defense budget, but the whole system works on green and blue dollars. One color from the Israeli taxpayers and another from the US taxpayers. The net result is the Israelis are strategic about what they fund internally and what they buy from the effectively captive US dollars. I suspect the IDF’s Tavor fielding was mostly marketing.

76716

Above stated, Uncle Sugar has used defense spending to prop up the US domestic manufacturers and to buy peace.
I am a fan of the net outcomes.

76717

[HCM]

On the original topic of the M4 replacing the Tavor, not a new story.

The Galil rifle had limited fielding with Israeli Army (IDF)… It was effectively replaced by the US-supplied M-16 in combat units from my understanding. The Galil ended up being a middling export project, with is probably the same story as the Tavor platform.

Although the Galil was the official service rifle of Israel from the mid-1970s to the early 1990s, it was never the principal rifle used (in terms of numbers). Around 1975, 60,000 M16A1s from the U.S. Military Aid Program (MAP) began to arrive in Israel that were quickly integrated into IDF service. The cost of producing the Galil for all IDF forces was very expensive, and Israel continued to purchase M16s and later M4s with military credit from the US, which had replaced many Galils then in service.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMI_Galil

I am far from an expert on the Israeli defense budget, but the whole system works on green and blue dollars. One color from the Israeli taxpayers and another from the US taxpayers. The net result is the Israelis are strategic about what they fund internally and what they buy from the effectively captive US dollars. I suspect the IDF’s Tavor fielding was mostly marketing.

76716

Above stated, Uncle Sugar has used defense spending to prop up the US domestic manufacturers and to buy peace.
I am a fan of the net outcomes.

76717

My understanding was the Galil was unpopular in the 1980s Lebanon wars due to weight and many Galils wound up being used as a SAW equivalent via the 50 round mags.

[Coyotesfan97]

My understanding is that after the import Ban of 1989, which banned the further import of civilian semi-auto AUGs, Steyr did a bad job of supplying spare parts, which effected any AUGs used by police and law enforcement agencies.

Yep that’s exactly what happened to us.

[TGS]

Yep that’s exactly what happened to us.

Same with the HK53 too?

[Ed L]

No word on where the M4s are coming from. Israel does make both direct impingement and short stroke gas Piston ARs--similar in design to the HK416. I imagine that they are buying them using American foreign aid because that would be cheaper since the money must be spent on US made products. If that is the case I hope they are buying Colts because I want to see Colt get the business to keep them in a less precarious state.

Since this has morphed into a Bullpup into a bullpup conversation of sorts, I will share a bit of my history with them as they relate to ARs. Everyone is aware that the bullpup has a shorter overall length for the same length of barrel. But another factor that I've noticed is that their center of gravity is further back. I've found that this makes the gun less tiring to use in classes than a conventional rifle. This made the longer length of pull a non-issue for me.

How I got to the Bullpup:

I was previously using a Colt AR-15A2 Carbine with a 16" barrel and a 2 position collapsible stock that I bought in 1989 at T&T Gunnery back when you could buy such things in NY state. In 1999 I mounted an Aimpoint XD on a gooseneck mount that screwed into the carry handle and mounted kept the Aimpoint over the front handguard. While I later realized that this mounting was horrible for the balance and made the rifle front heavy, when I first shot the gun with the Aimpoint I really appreciated all of the advantages of a RDS over open sights. I took the gun to two carbine classes, including a CSAT on with Paul Howe. Though I still liked the gun, I found that the forward Aimpoint mount made it front heavy and the collapsible stocks two positions were either too long or too short.

In the spring of 2006 I came across an FN FS2000 bullpup at a gun show. It was one of the first 100 guns to be imported into the US and there was no info on it. I really liked its compactness and balance. An additional issue was that I was suffering from a pinched nerve at the time that effected my right arm and the FS2000 seemed like something that I could easily fire from my left shoulder. It was the strange chain of events of having the arm back problems and encountering an FS2000 at a gun show that led me to buy it within a few days. I was in the process of getting spinal injections for the pinched nerve and thankfully it got better. I wound up writing an article on the FS2000 for SWAT magazine, where I had to figure out certain manipulation issues because there was no body of knowledge available about it.

Here is a picture of the Colt Carbine that I had at the time set up next to an FN FAL 50.63 and and the FN FS2000. Since I no longer have that Colt A2 Carbine or the FS2000, these are the best comparative picture that I have on hand.

76724

In 2007 I ran the FS2000 through a Pat Rogers Carbine class, and later bought a pre-ban AUGa2, since I really liked the bullpup concept and this was before Steyr was partnering with people and building AUGs in the US.

In 2008 I bought a Colt 6920. It was a completely different a multi position collapsible stock that allowed me to get a suitable length and it allowed me to mount the Aimpoint above the receiver which gave it much better balance than the older AR-15A2 carbine that I had. I still have the Steyr AUG, but have not shot it in many years. I would be completely okay with using it for a class, to go shooting, or for defensive purposes, but I pretty much moved over to the AR type longarm.

[HeavyDuty]

In the spring of 2006 I came across an FN FS2000 bullpup at a gun show. It was one of the first 100 guns to be imported into the US and there was no info on it. I really liked its compactness and balance. An additional issue was that I was suffering from a pinched nerve at the time that effected my right arm and the FS2000 seemed like something that I could easily fire from my left shoulder. It was the strange chain of events of having the arm back problems and encountering an FS2000 at a gun show that led me to buy it within a few days. I was in the process of getting spinal injections for the pinched nerve and thankfully it got better. I wound up writing an article on the FS2000 for SWAT magazine, where I had to figure out certain manipulation issues because there was no body of knowledge available about it.

An acquaintance had a FS2000, I’ve wanted one ever since. I seriously doubt it would ever happen, I chose a X-95 for my singular bullpup dalliance.

[Coyotesfan97]

Same with the HK53 too?

The 53s lasted longer than the AUGs. I know our HK armorer was always scrambling to get parts for them. I know from personally trying to order new ones HK didn’t put a priority on them. It was 18-24 months from order to delivery. IIRC they made them twice a year.

HK missed the boat as teams transitioned to ARs from MP5s. If they’d pushed the 53 as a replacement who knows how many they’d have sold. I loved the heavy, loud SOB. It was a great gun.

[HCM]

The 53s lasted longer than the AUGs. I know our HK armorer was always scrambling to get parts for them. I know from personally trying to order new ones HK didn’t put a priority on them. It was 18-24 months from order to delivery. IIRC they made them twice a year.

HK missed the boat as teams transitioned to ARs from MP5s. If they’d pushed the 53 as a replacement who knows how many they’d have sold. I loved the heavy, loud SOB. It was a great gun.

Given the market dominance of the MP5 pre GWOT the 5.56 market was theirs to lose.

[TGS]

Coyotesfan97

Is it possible they didn't want to sell the HK53/HK33 because they wanted to push the newer hotness, the G36c and G36k? Or did HK not actually try to push that either with your agency, or at the very least the programs/departments you're aware of being obvious customers to pursue?

[Coyotesfan97]

Coyotesfan97

Is it possible they didn't want to sell the HK53/HK33 because they wanted to push the newer hotness, the G36c and G36k? Or did HK not actually try to push that either with your agency, or at the very least the programs/departments you're aware of being obvious customers to pursue?

Frankly from what my friend the HK armorer, who was also a Master HK Instructor, told me HK didn’t care enough about our 30-40 man part time team and what to them were small orders. The MP5 Master class was one training I always wanted to attend but never got a chance.

I did get and T&E the 36k and c. I wasn’t impressed with them. They mostly got a meh from the other guys who shot them. I never liked the UMP either and I think they liked to push that too.

I don’t remember HK ever trying to sell us anything…

[fatdog]

Coyotesfan97...they wanted to push the newer hotness, the G36c and G36k?

No idea if it coincides with Coyotesfan97's timeframe, but there was a period about 15 years ago when HK USA relocated from VA to Trussville, AL for a few years before they headed to Columbus. During that time period they joined our gun club which was only a few miles away, and used the site to do their LE demo days. Got to be friends with many of the staff, some of whom shot USPSA with us, and in exchange for helping them come set those range days up, when things were over and the guests had left they let us play with the toys before everything went back into the Pelican cases. Great stuff. During that period of time they were indeed pushing the G36 and especially it seemed to me the G36K at LE as well as the whole family of the UMP's, 9mm, 40, 45 in addition to the current handguns of that period and the LEM trigger system.

Never saw the roller lock systems at those events, almost as if they were forgotten. I did talk them into bringing the Breifcase MP5K with them one day and actually got to try it out.

The G36K was a very controllable gun and easy to shoot well, or so I thought at the time.

[Coyotesfan97]

No idea if it coincides with Coyotesfan97's timeframe, but there was a period about 15 years ago when HK USA relocated from VA to Trussville, AL for a few years before they headed to Columbus. During that time period they joined our gun club which was only a few miles away, and used the site to do their LE demo days. Got to be friends with many of the staff, some of whom shot USPSA with us, and in exchange for helping them come set those range days up, when things were over and the guests had left they let us play with the toys before everything went back into the Pelican cases. Great stuff. During that period of time they were indeed pushing the G36 and especially it seemed to me the G36K at LE as well as the whole family of the UMP's, 9mm, 40, 45 in addition to the current handguns of that period and the LEM trigger system.

Never saw the roller lock systems at those events, almost as if they were forgotten. I did talk them into bringing the Breifcase MP5K with them one day and actually got to try it out.

The G36K was a very controllable gun and easy to shoot well, or so I thought at the time.

Fat dog this was the 2001-2005 timeframe. IIRC I went to the HK Operator/Instructor classes in Vegas in 2002. I do remember the 36s being easy to control but I didn’t like the package as a whole. I guess I’m a RDB type of guy:D

I do have to say I never met an HK Instuctor I didn’t like. HK Training was squared away.

[Coyotesfan97]

Given the market dominance of the MP5 pre GWOT the 5.56 market was theirs to lose.

I’ve often thought if they’d gone around to teams using the MP5 and offered to transition them to 53s with trade ins for the MP5s they’d have made bank on it.

[Simong]

Maybe they got a good deal on M4s from the Taliban?

https://www.israelhayom.com/2021/09/05/parting-shots-after-only-a-decade-idf-retires-tavor-rifle/


Most elite Israeli special forces units NEVER adopted the Tavor platform, yes they did practice with it as they do with other types of rifles platforms.

At the same time Israeli military also retiring the older SR-25/MK11 platform and switching to the excellent Barrett REC-10


Simong.

[fatdog]

I do remember the 36s being easy to control but I didn’t like the package as a whole......never met an HK Instuctor I didn’t like. HK Training was squared away.

I think that timeframe was just a few years before the AL time period for HK. End of the demo days when their customers had left, we would go into our target sheds and set up a small USPSA type stage, maybe 10-12 USPSA targets and then take turns with the different long guns running the thing. Deal always was you had to flip the selector to auto on the very last target on the stage and empty whatever was left in the mag. That 36K was the only gun I could 100% hold the A zone with every time on the last target, even with only the iron sights, never could do it consistently with the UMP's or for some reason the full size 36....that is probably the sole reason I remember having fondness for that 36K...no relevance to its real practicality for its intended purpose, just something my inner 10 year old was in love with.

[Hambo]

I’ve often thought if they’d gone around to teams using the MP5 and offered to transition them to 53s with trade ins for the MP5s they’d have made bank on it.

By the time subguns started to fall out of favor, it was too late. HK had their claw mount or go fuck yourself, while flat top Colts and optics had been in use since the mid 1990s.

[Ed L]

An acquaintance had a FS2000, I’ve wanted one ever since. I seriously doubt it would ever happen, I chose a X-95 for my singular bullpup dalliance.

The X95 seems fine. I handled the regular Tavor and the X95. IIRC the X95 has a better trigger. If I got a regular Tavor I would have to have the geissele trigger pack. I looked at the Tavor and did some research, but was not motivated enough to buy one.

The newer US made AUGS have better triggers than the old prebans like the one that I have. Luckily there is a product that has been on the market a while called the Trigger Tamer that allows you to easily switch one part in the AUG's trigger pack and get a much better trigger. While the website and wording is unimpressive, the product is really good--especially for the pre-ban AUGs. https://triggertamer.com/

[DpdG]

I’ve often thought if they’d gone around to teams using the MP5 and offered to transition them to 53s with trade ins for the MP5s they’d have made bank on it.

I’ve never been issued a sub gun, as my first (and still using with a new upper) team gun was a Colt 933, but when I came on we had a mix of iron sight MP5/9, iron sight UMP45, and a menagerie of AR pattern carbines. I got to shoot the sub-guns fairly frequently for fam-fire and really did not care for the UMP.

I think the UMP was one of those “good idea on paper” situations that hurt the sub gun cause more than it helped. It was light and had a combination of MP and AR ergos/controls, which was nice. In semi it shot well (usual HK trigger mush) and 2rd bust was ok, but full auto was much less controllable than it should have been. The best way I can describe the full auto sensation was the whole gun tried to move in a football shaped path. I suspect the straight blowback action, requiring a rather heavy bolt in 45, paired with a very light receiver, made it so the majority of its mass was reciprocating. End result was the gun moved a lot and it was very hard to stay on the sights. Perhaps optics would have resolved the sights issues, but we never mounted them. Finally, double stack/single feed chonker mags were a poor design choice compared to the legacy MP5 mags.

[Coyotesfan97]

By the time subguns started to fall out of favor, it was too late. HK had their claw mount or go fuck yourself, while flat top Colts and optics had been in use since the mid 1990s.

I had an Aimpoint on my 53 but it wasn’t on a claw mount. I’ll be damned if I can remember the name of the company but it rested on top of the receiver with a screw tightened clamp. At the time it was the claw alternative.

[Coyotesfan97]

I’ve never been issued a sub gun, as my first (and still using with a new upper) team gun was a Colt 933, but when I came on we had a mix of iron sight MP5/9, iron sight UMP45, and a menagerie of AR pattern carbines. I got to shoot the sub-guns fairly frequently for fam-fire and really did not care for the UMP.

I think the UMP was one of those “good idea on paper” situations that hurt the sub gun cause more than it helped. It was light and had a combination of MP and AR ergos/controls, which was nice. In semi it shot well (usual HK trigger mush) and 2rd bust was ok, but full auto was much less controllable than it should have been. The best way I can describe the full auto sensation was the whole gun tried to move in a football shaped path. I suspect the straight blowback action, requiring a rather heavy bolt in 45, paired with a very light receiver, made it so the majority of its mass was reciprocating. End result was the gun moved a lot and it was very hard to stay on the sights. Perhaps optics would have resolved the sights issues, but we never mounted them. Finally, double stack/single feed chonker mags were a poor design choice compared to the legacy MP5 mags.

I never did anything more than familiarization with the UMPs but that’s a pretty good summary why I didn’t like them. I wish I could remember how much the instructor said the straight blowback bolt would have to weigh if it was in a center fired rifle but it was crazy high.

[Ed L]

Meanwhile, Israeli Weapons Industries has announced that the Israeli Defense Forces is procuring additional X95 Micro Tavors. This is the more compact version with a 13" barrel:

https://soldiersystems.net/2021/09/07/iwi-announces-additional-procurement-of-the-micro-tavor-x95-assault-rifle-by-the-israel-defense-forces/

Another link that needs google translation: https://www.idf.il/137910

[DDTSGM]

I never did anything more than familiarization with the UMPs but that’s a pretty good summary why I didn’t like them. I wish I could remember how much the instructor said the straight blowback bolt would have to weigh if it was in a center fired rifle but it was crazy high.

IIRC for a .308 the weight they quoted was 37 or 39 pounds.

I did get a chance to attend a lot of HK courses, including Master Instructor. When I came to one class they had just hired a new instructor that I thought was a jerk (not to me to another student). When I came back the next time he had left, don't know if that was his choice or theirs.

HK ITD was a class operation IMO.

And, the UMP sucks, you can/could deadline one by allowing the lower receiver to drop while attached to the attachment lugs. Aside from that RBD is king of the subguns. The first class I put on after becoming an instructor had two Colt SMG's. The two guys were having a hard time when we started the auto portion, so I took one of their Colts during a lunch break to play with it - couldn't believe how much it jumped around. I used it during lunch the next couple days and found out I could make standards and qual with it, but not nearly as easily as with the MP5 - which, to me, would have been the deciding factor.

[TGS]

And, the UMP sucks, you can/could deadline one by allowing the lower receiver to drop while attached to the attachment lugs. Aside from that RBD is king of the subguns. The first class I put on after becoming an instructor had two Colt SMG's. The two guys were having a hard time when we started the auto portion, so I took one of their Colts during a lunch break to play with it - couldn't believe how much it jumped around. I used it during lunch the next couple days and found out I could make standards and qual with it, but not nearly as easily as with the MP5 - which, to me, would have been the deciding factor.

We finally ditched the Colt 635 a few years ago. Not just the MP5, but even the Mk18 is much more controllable on FA. We actually used the same qual for the first couple years with two FA strings, so plenty of opportunity to compare. :)