Why doesn't Walther get more love?

[GmanVP9]

They make A fantastic product, I own the PPS and to me it's the best single stack 9 mm I have ever shot. That's including the 365 and G 43. I think the new PDP that just came out is also pretty awesome. Their triggers are some of the best in the striker fire world, lI just can't understand why they don't get the love of some of the other companies?

[MickAK]

They're not as aggressive at getting LE contracts in the US, which makes them less common, less common means less aftermarket support and parts availability. They seem like they're interested in making a strong effort with the PDP so we'll see. I don't think there's any disagreement that they make nice pistols, it's more are they nice enough to get new holsters, mags, parts etc.

I personally agree about the PPS, but on paper it's not as good as the other options. I wish they would have stuck with paddles though. Heavy is good, heavy is reliable. If it doesn't work you can always hit him with it.

[4RNR]

PPQ was popular or not unpopular.

The PDP is having teething issues with triggers. They seem to get worse with use

PPS M1 wasn't bad but mags are/were expensive. And the gun was expensive. M2 was kinda meh. And was killed by the Shield.


And now there's no point really in a single stack when the same thing can be had in a 1.5 stack.

But ultimately they don't advertise aggressively and there's not much aftermarket support

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[Hot Sauce]

They make A fantastic product, I own the PPS and to me it's the best single stack 9 mm I have ever shot. That's including the 365 and G 43. I think the new PDP that just came out is also pretty awesome. Their triggers are some of the best in the striker fire world, lI just can't understand why they don't get the love of some of the other companies?

It's a mixture of reasons.

Marketing:

For decades, Glock left everyone behind in the dust on this. To a large degree, their product line was reliable, so most people didn't dispute the "perfection" claim.

So, a huge head start. One could argue that Walther is turning around the way they do marketing and outreach with the PDP rollout, but again you've already got the hurdle of being perceived as "niche" to overcome. Some brands understood in the early 2000s that the lifestyle marketing was where the success was. Walther was still pushing the James Bond theme.

This isn't solely a Walther problem. Look at Beretta. Where was their marketing before Langdon+Wilson gave them a boost? Most of the world still doesn't know the APX exists.

Law Enforcement/Military Adoption:

Glock went after the LE sphere very hard and early and gave them deals that weren't not economically worthwhile to refuse. So there's a generation of cops who are happy with Glocks, acquisitions guys who are happy with the finances of such decisions. The guns work. The support is extensive.

How much of a better deal do you have to offer to get them to switch from something that already works? Can Walther afford to give that kind of deal?

S&W and Sig compete in this space. Beretta/HK/FN do too, to a lesser extent.

It's a very crowded field to compete in unless you have product that can undercut price and maintain same level of satisfaction. Easier said than done.

This all comes back to marketing again, because guess which guns civilians tend to buy? The ones cops and soldiers carry.

Aftermarket support:

Civvies love tricking their guns out, playing Legos with different parts, etc.

For Walthers, even the basics like a wide variety of sights is difficult to come across.

On Paper vs In-the-hand factors:

A lot of civilian/internet shopping culture is obsessed with on paper statistics.

For double stacks, Walthers aren't as size-capacity efficient as their competitors. For single stacks, they are heavier than their competitors.

So there tends to be less hype about them, which leads people to not actually try to carry or shoot them. When they do, these kinds of people are generally pleasantly surprised.

[GmanVP9]

PPQ was popular or not unpopular.

The PDP is having teething issues with triggers. They seem to get worse with use

PPS M1 wasn't bad but mags are/were expensive. And the gun was expensive. M2 was kinda meh. And was killed by the Shield.


And now there's no point really in a single stack when the same thing can be had in a 1.5 stack.

But ultimately they don't advertise aggressively and there's not much aftermarket support

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Which I don't understand because the M2 is way better than the Shield IMO

[Hot Sauce]

Which I don't understand because the M2 is way better than the Shield IMO
It undercut it on price and had an extensive advertising campaign.

[KevH]

Glock owns the LE marketplace because they honestly have a great simple product, great factory reps, offer nearly free training locally, undercut most on price, and there is tons of aftermarket support (holsters, training guns, everything).

In the non-LE market they've come to be like a 1911 where you can build an entire Glock without any Glock in it. The availability of slides, mounting plates, holsters, everything you would ever want, is available for Glocks. Not the case with most other pistols. S&W and SIG can "sort of" compete with Glock (SIG is trying hard). Beretta and H&K barely compete in the US LE marketplace at all these days.

Regarding Walther and LE...

The P99 had a lot of potential. Back in the early 2000's when 40 S&W ruled the world, Walther partnered with Smith & Wesson to import the Walther P99 and to produce the PPK, as well as the 40 S&W and 45 ACP P99's dubbed the SW99. The SW99 was absolute trash. Yours truly had one issued to him (well actually two since S&W took the first batch back when they all broke). Ultimately, S&W replaced all issued SW99's for free in 2007/2008 with M&P's and even bought some departments (like mine) new holsters to go with them. S&W wanted the guns completely gone (and pretends they never existed) because they were actually that bad. The S&W-made PPK/S models weren't exactly known for their reliability and performance either. Something was lost in translation between Ulm and Springfield. The entire Walther/ S&W debacle, for those of us that remember it, left a really bad taste in LE's mouths.

So if I'm a police administrator or on an armorer committee, what does Walther offer me over Glock?

One is universally known and supported and the other might offer some nice features, but very little support and likely costs more.

Hence, Walther will remain a niche gun.

[Wonder9]

Walther couldn't market free sex with supermodels at a Star Trek convention.

[4RNR]

Which I don't understand because the M2 is way better than the Shield IMOI didn't care for it in any way. Liked the original way better. The Shield I would put on par or slightly better than and the 2.0 does everything better. The PLUS is obviously a plus

IMO it's more advertising than LE issue. Just look at the popularity of the XD

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[Archer1440]

Walther couldn't market free sex with supermodels at a Star Trek convention.

That might be one of the more epic phrases yet turned here on PF.

[TNK]

Walther waited 14 years to move from the P99 to the PPQ. Consider how much the market in the U.S. changed as the striker-fired pistol with a consistent trigger pull took over. Walther tried a P99 with a "Quick Action" but this move was a false start (to put it nicely).

The PPQ was an improvement, but, as stated above, Glock and its significant aftermarket support, especially with trigger kits, was not to be challenged.

The P99 has seen wide use in European Law Enforcement. It is co-produced in Poland with Radom. But its paddle-style release made it a non-starter here.

Walther also took an unfortunate detour of a manufacturing and marketing partnership with Smith and Wesson. While we did get a SW99 in .45 ACP, there is not much else to say about this business venture. There was also one with Magnum Research. None of these pistols did not do what the original P99 already did well enough.

And the price of magazines: Walther magazines are expensive. Everyone here probably agrees 7 or 8 magazines per pistol are a necessity. When magazines are $50 to $60 a pop, and often not available, the Glock looks better everyday with ubiquitous magazines costing almost half as much.

I like the new PDP, it shows promise, but when it has better support for holsters and more affordable magazines, then I will take another look at buying one.

[DpdG]

I bought a PDP (see that thread) and it had issues related to magazines (both in terms of function and availability) and the trigger has degraded with use from very very good to decent but with a weird hitch in the middle of the take-up. I will likely trade it towards a more mainstream gun as the logistics don’t make sense for me and the trigger sensation is weird and I fear it may continue to degrade.

I’m also a lead instructor/armorer at a small LE agency. I would not consider it for duty use- trigger is debatably too light, logistical support isn’t sufficient at the moment, track history in the US LE market is marginal and name recognition by my non-enthusiast bosses is basically nil.

[Trooper224]

Walther isn't used by cops all over the country. Walther isn't used by real american heros in the military. Walther isn't used by a fictional Hollywood badass assassin. This trifecta greatly influences the general publics purchasing decisions.

[Default.mp3]

Walther isn't used by a fictional Hollywood badass assassin.https://www.jamesbondlifestyle.com/sites/default/files/styles/fancybox_popup/public/images/product/ga005-walther-p99-pierce-brosnan-collage.jpg
Also seen in Casino Royale, along with the PPK used by various Bonds. Though I suppose the Bonds were never that handgun driven.

[P30]

In Germany, the Walther PP and PPK were for a long time very frequent police pistols.
In 1978, police switched to single-stack 9 mm pistols. Mainly SIG Sauer P6 and HK P7, Walther P5 in a lesser number, too.
In 2005 in the federal state where I live, they switched from P6 to Walther P99 DAO. They still use it, 42,000 instances are in use (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walther_P99#Nutzer) in my federal state.

The PPK and the P99 were also James Bond's pistols at that respective times. This was huge marketing. I read Walther had relationships to the Broccoli family. I'm not sure but I assume, the James Bond movies had a significant influence so that the Walther pistols became police pistols here. Maybe you US cowboys should just watch more James Bond movies. :D

I remember such an advertisement poster very well, first Bond movie with a P99. A few years later police here had the P99:

https://gfx.videobuster.de/archive/v/cY4JmuVnMP5Ryz6ca0axeCwcz0lMkawMDglMkYwMiUyRmltYZk lMkZqcGVnJTJG2zlkZsfwOWUyZTJmuL45ZvLPxWbcZmUuanBnJ nI9d-84/james-bond-007-der-morgen-stirbt-nie.jpg

[TGS]

I think the agency issues already mentioned previously play a big role.

In addition to what was mentioned, on the east coast the platform hit bad press because of problems seen by the New Jersey State Police with their brand new SW99 guns. The guns were dumped and they bought P228s instead. I think this garnered more press and attention than it otherwise would because the NJSP had ordered it in a hurried response to a Trooper being killed during a gunfight where his HK P7 jammed.

[LOKNLOD]

Walther couldn't market free sex with supermodels at a Star Trek convention.

One could say it's part of their Creed.

[MistWolf]

The Walther Crew seem to keep missing the mark by that much. Several Walther vids show the PDP with the ACRO. I read comments in the PDP thread how the ACRO is a good fit for the PDP because the deep cut lets the boxy sight sit lower on the slide than any other handgun. Yet Walther refuses to add the PDP to its list of available plates. Just one of Walther's marketing missteps.

[JonInWA]

I've handled and shot Walther's in IDPA matches; for several years, Walther was/is a major sponsor of our Washington State IDPA match, and their guns were a staple feature in the stage they sponsored as an initial mandatory "pick up and use" gun (you then transitioned to your personal weapon). Nice guns, but personally of limited attraction to me for several reasons:

1). I'm heavily invested in Glock;

2). The gun that Walther's really compete against in my eyes are the HK VPs-and I personally prefer HK (and my personal VP40) for ergos, more extensive vetting, and the superb afteermakket support I've pesonally experienced with HK US Tech Support.

3). OEM sight-wise, to me Walther and Glock are a bit of a wash, with a slight nod towards Walter. But Glock has gotten more aggressive with their Ameriglo affiliation as an OEM option, and HK offers their LE option with the VP, which provides a third magazine and Meprolight tritium nightsights for an additional $100-a good value in my eyes.

4) Walther triggers (and in the past, magazine releases) were a bit too much on the light side for me, particularly as a duty SFA trigger. Glock's crisp break to me is peferable, followed by HK's.

Best, Jon

[Rex G]

I always liked the P5, but they were never inexpensive, and then they became collectible, so the asking prices went stratospheric. If I were to become a wealthy man, I might buy three of them, a pair and a spare, at collector prices, and commission a custom horsehide holster. In real life, my retirement-era, DA/SA nostalgia pistols are single-stack, Third-Generation 9mm S&W.

I really do like the German and West German-made PP and PPK/s, which includes their superb point-ability, but unless/until I find one that feeds reliably, they are not candidates for serious carry guns, for me. The duck-bill tang on the S&W-made PPK and PPK/s rasps a hole in my skin, in the first few shots, and they are a step down in reliability, from the European-made guns.

I wanted to like the pre-M2 PPS, but the M2 soon came along, and spoiled that. If an LGS will ever get a well-preserved, pre-owned, pre-M2 PPS 9mm in stock, I might go for it, but owners seem to be keeping them, as I only see the .40 versions being offered, and not often. Working against this is my reluctance to buy into any new weapon system, this late in the game, especially now that compact nines are painful to shoot right-handed, and my healthier left hand is starting to show its age, too.

[4RNR]

Walther waited 14 years to move from the P99 to the PPQ. Consider how much the market in the U.S. changed as the striker-fired pistol with a consistent trigger pull took over. Walther tried a P99 with a "Quick Action" but this move was a false start (to put it nicely).

The PPQ was an improvement, but, as stated above, Glock and its significant aftermarket support, especially with trigger kits, was not to be challenged.

The P99 has seen wide use in European Law Enforcement. It is co-produced in Poland with Radom. But its paddle-style release made it a non-starter here.

Walther also took an unfortunate detour of a manufacturing and marketing partnership with Smith and Wesson. While we did get a SW99 in .45 ACP, there is not much else to say about this business venture. There was also one with Magnum Research. None of these pistols did not do what the original P99 already did well enough.

And the price of magazines: Walther magazines are expensive. Everyone here probably agrees 7 or 8 magazines per pistol are a necessity. When magazines are $50 to $60 a pop, and often not available, the Glock looks better everyday with ubiquitous magazines costing almost half as much.

I like the new PDP, it shows promise, but when it has better support for holsters and more affordable magazines, then I will take another look at buying one.

All of that still works with good marketing.

HK still makes the paddle release USP.
HK magazines are expensive
Sig magazines are expensive

Aftermarket support comes after marketing. See Springfield XD



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[4RNR]

Walther isn't used by cops all over the country. Walther isn't used by real american heros in the military. Walther isn't used by a fictional Hollywood badass assassin. This trifecta greatly influences the general publics purchasing decisions.You can say exactly the same thing for the Springfield XD

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[4RNR]

If the P99 was a little more prevent I would be a Walther shooter and not a Glock shooter.

99% of my guns are used and 99% of those are used police. I carried a used police gun until I bought a used police glock. Been carrying and shooting a used police glock for the last 15 years. I liked the way the P99 felt. If Walther had a bigger presence I would have bought a used 9 99

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[Borderland]

Walther couldn't market free sex with supermodels at a Star Trek convention.

I'm trying to visualize that.

[GJM]

I'm trying to visualize that.

I think the better analogy is “could not get sex if the warden in a women’s prison with a hand full of pardons.”

Face it, Walther shooters are generally an odd bunch, and probably 75 percent of them wear their pants above their waist.

[MickAK]

I think the better analogy is “could not get sex if the warden in a women’s prison with a hand full of pardons.”

Face it, Walther shooters are generally an odd bunch, and probably 75 percent of them wear their pants above their waist.

Higher waistband = faster draw. No tactical sacrifices to fashion.

[RJflyer]

I think the better analogy is “could not get sex if the warden in a women’s prison with a hand full of pardons.”

Face it, Walther shooters are generally an odd bunch, and probably 75 percent of them wear their pants above their waist.

Got me...I'll self-identify and admit I own a Q4SF for absolutely no practical reason, but I love it. Almost like those 1911 guys...

[RevolverRob]

Because Walther should just build a P5C already. Steel, aluminum, and poly frames.

[Hot Sauce]

I'm not sure where the $50-60 magazines comment is coming from. I've easily and consistently found PPS and PPQ mags in the $30s range over the past decade. And they feed reliably.

There are better things to rag on Walther about.

[Greg Bell]

I think they have been far too quick to spit out new models. They seem to change everything at the drop of a hat. Honestly, the P99AS and QA were probably what they needed to focus on. They should have kept refining them and pushing them on various police and military contracts. They remind me of desperate car company.


That being said, I love Walthers!

[DpdG]

I'm not sure where the $50-60 magazines comment is coming from. I've easily and consistently found PPS and PPQ mags in the $30s range over the past decade. And they feed reliably.

There are better things to rag on Walther about.

PDP 18rd mags list at $49 and are basically unavailable. They are already on Gen2 mags due to feed issues with the originals.

[HCM]

You can say exactly the same thing for the Springfield XD

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But the XD isn’t used because it has substantial durability and reliability issues compounded by SAI’s unwillingness to sell parts, provide armorer training etc.

They have literally self destructed in agency testing.

Other than the disaster of a collaboration with S&W, Walthers have not really been marketed to institutional customers in the U.S. prior to a few years ago.

[TNK]

I'm not sure where the $50-60 magazines comment is coming from. I've easily and consistently found PPS and PPQ mags in the $30s range over the past decade. And they feed reliably.

There are better things to rag on Walther about.


I was referring to the cost of P99 magazines in the 2000s. That is, when they were available.

Also, yes, HK has sold a lifestyle with its products. We buy it. Walther? Not so much.

[4RNR]

But the XD isn’t used because it has substantial durability and reliability issues compounded by SAI’s unwillingness to sell parts, provide armorer training etc.

They have literally self destructed in agency testing.

Other than the disaster of a collaboration with S&W, Walthers have not really been marketed to institutional customers in the U.S. prior to a few years ago.Right but I don't know of XDs that were even in agency training although somewhere at sometime there probably was. Even in all the classes I've taken over the years I don't remember seeing XDs. But they're in every gun store and on all used shelves

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[Elwin]

I carried P99s for two years or so and went full in on them. I’ve since sold all three I had and switched to 1911s. Though I don’t think we’ll ever be getting rid of my wife’s PPQ Classic or the PPS M1.

Aftermarket support as mentioned is a huge issue. I had what I needed, but if Dawson Precision or JMCK ever went out of business or stoped supporting the PPQ, I was going to be up a creek in a bad way. They were the only sources for sights and holsters that worked for me. Even then, the holsters only worked because PPQ holsters just so happen to fit Gen 2 P99s (not that I blame JM at all for not supporting the snowflake P99).

A bigger problem for me was OEM support and user service of the pistols. This is an area where Glock and Walther couldn’t be more different. I had my practice P99 break twice due to heavy use - first the trigger shoe cracked and then there was some issue with the striker assembly that just required replacing it. I don’t blame the design, as this gun got A LOT of dry fire use.

The problem was fixing it. It had to go back to Walther for both problems, even though it was just replacing parts. They took care of all expenses and got it back quickly, but I was still unhappy with having to send a modern SFA pistol in for very simple repairs. Compare that to Glock where you can easily buy a whole stable of spare parts for cheap and any one can fully detail strip and reassemble one. That is very much not a thing with Walthers.

This experience lead to the decision that if I ever did switch carry guns, it would only be to some variety of Glocks, Beretta 92s, or 1911s, because those are all extremely user serviceable (granted that the 1911 does require learning some skills, but the parts, tools, and necessary instruction are out there to fix most anything that’s really likely to break). Other people may be fine with it, but I just hated not being able to fix and maintain my own carry guns.

I’m sure this is a huge issue for LE too. As far as I’m aware Walther doesn’t provide armorer training or otherwise lift a finger to help people fix and maintain guns in house. Glock not only provides and armorer course for LE, they’ll let anyone take it.

[Archer1440]

The PPK and the P99 were also James Bond's pistols at that respective times. This was huge marketing. I read Walther had relationships to the Broccoli family.

If by “relationships” you mean “handed over piles of cash”, then, yeah.

(I know it’s just a movie series, but the sheer derp of the gunhandling in the posters and films just kills it for me.)

[P30]

If by “relationships” you mean “handed over piles of cash”, then, yeah.
No, I mean a relationship not only based on money. But I don't remember it clearly, searched it but could not find it anymore. Only found the following, it supports your version and not mine:

tagesspiegel.de/wirtschaft/werbung-und-film-von-james-bond-zu-james-bier/7311844.html (https://www.tagesspiegel.de/wirtschaft/werbung-und-film-von-james-bond-zu-james-bier/7311844.html):

Etwa ein Drittel des Produktionsbudgets von geschätzten 200 Millionen Dollar sollen Markenhersteller dafür bezahlt haben, dass sie ihre Produkte in „Skyfall“ platzieren durften. [...] Über die Höhe des finanziellen Engagements geben die Unternehmen keine Auskunft.

Deepl translation (https://www.deepl.com/translator#de/en/Etwa%20ein%20Drittel%20des%20Produktionsbudgets%20 von%20gesch%C3%A4tzten%20200%20Millionen%20Dollar% 20sollen%20Markenhersteller%20daf%C3%BCr%20bezahlt %20haben%2C%20dass%20sie%20ihre%20Produkte%20in%20 %E2%80%9ESkyfall%E2%80%9C%20platzieren%20durften.% 20%5B...%5D%20%C3%9Cber%20die%20H%C3%B6he%20des%20 finanziellen%20Engagements%20geben%20die%20Unterne hmen%20keine%20Auskunft.):

Brand manufacturers are said to have paid around a third of the production budget of an estimated $200 million to be allowed to place their products in "Skyfall." [...] The companies do not provide any information about the amount of the financial commitment.

[vcdgrips]

Everybody is four days late and six dollars short relative to Glock. The train has simply left the station.

NOBODY can compete with Glock on price alone, particularly in bulk orders. When consider the intersection of quality/value/performance-Bout Austria!

Quality OEM mags are 25.00USD max all day long. Magpuls are typically less than 15.00USD and are fine for practice and duty worthy once numbered and vetted.

You can train anybody to maintain/repair one in the field (short of a cracked frame/barrel/slide) and give them a literal tackle box full of parts to do it in 24 training hours or less.

Holster/sights/mag pouch support is so ubiquitous that there are big box retailers that can meet your needs let alone, LGSs, LEO oriented shops and Amazon.

Glocks simply work relative to other platforms across a wide variety of users/calibers/number of pistols in service.

The sub 600.00 gun to the public/ 450.00 gun to the agency with night sights and 3 mags war is over. Glock Won.

FWIW, I have heard that Glock will essentially trade a New G17/19 with 3 mags and night sights for any pistol used by an agency if that agency is not presently using Glock, give them the armorer's training and an agency parts kit, sell them some extra mags and everybody is happy. I would like hear anybody with 1st hand knowledge on this issue if i am mistaken as I admitted do not have such.


The following is moderately sarcastic sprinkled with truth re polymer pistols.

HK not even close on price/support etc.

SA XD....... cue crickets and owls please

Walther for all the reasons mentioned above

Beretta...not so much.

FN- who?


CZ- stay in your lane


Ruger- They make a duty sized polymer pistol?


All of the Turkish Knockoffs- "this really is just as good as a ... oh wait, the trigger just fell out at 204 flawless rounds."


S&W- "coulda been a "contenda"... coulda been somebody..." Gen 1 9mm accuracy issues. Gen 1 Trigger Feel issues. The last best chance squandered. S&W cant/wont make small parts readily avail. to the masses.

Sig-just when you think they can get out from under the real and perceived QC issues, they get pulled back in... i.e. the continuing 320 et al saga.


I started shooting in 1990ish when Glock was just coming on line. Everybody has been saying they have the next Glock Killer every year. 30 + years later, we are still waiting.

[GlockenSpiel]

From the civilian side I think HK already took the title of Teutonic fanboy brand. Walther was having issues with the failed S&W collab and a da/sa hybrid most people did not want, while HK was successfully connecting their brand with special forces.

I do agree people look for reasons to dismiss Walther; I've seen people say the PPQ has too high of a bore axis while also praising the P320. That said Walther needs to do everything perfectly to make up for the lead other brands have.

[HCM]

Right but I don't know of XDs that were even in agency training although somewhere at sometime there probably was. Even in all the classes I've taken over the years I don't remember seeing XDs. But they're in every gun store and on all used shelves

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Again little to LE use because XDs are POS.

Do you mean why are “regular people” buying XDs ? That is marketing.”Springfield” is on par with Colt and S&W in terms of name recognition. SA also had a well established distributor and dealer network for their rifles, 1911s and, at the time CZ clones (any one else remember those ? P9?)

I have literally been in a gun shop and seen someone buy an XD over a Glock because cletus wanted to “buy American” despite the XD saying “Made in Croatia” on the slide.

They were also successful in linking the XD with the 1911, especially among the Fudd crowd I.e. the 1911 like grip angle and 1911 like grip safety makes it “better” than a Glock.

Walther was originally imported by Interarms. Then tried to make a push into the US/US LE market via S&W. To continue vcdgrips Godfather theme Walther’s S&W deal turned out to be the worst move since The Godfather sent Fredo to Vegas….

After that, at one point the only source for Walther parts and accessories was a bicycle shop that did gun stuff on the side.

The PPQ was nice but the whole drama over paddle vs button mag releases and mag incompatibility killed it just as it gained a toe hold. Many, including myself who actually liked the PPQ preferred the paddle mag release.

[Hot Sauce]

PDP 18rd mags list at $49 and are basically unavailable. They are already on Gen2 mags due to feed issues with the originals.
That's a fair point, and I have seen that in the teething issue PDP thread. But that is a new addition to the product line, as well.

The original 15 rounder P99 mags, with minor changes carried to PPQ/PDP have been mainstays. Which is among why Wilson used them as the starting point for EDC X9 mags.

[Trooper224]

https://www.jamesbondlifestyle.com/sites/default/files/styles/fancybox_popup/public/images/product/ga005-walther-p99-pierce-brosnan-collage.jpg
Also seen in Casino Royale, along with the PPK used by various Bonds. Though I suppose the Bonds were never that handgun driven.

Okay, how about a badass Hollywood assassin most millennials have heard of? Bond is soooooo boomer.

[Hot Sauce]

Okay, how about a badass Hollywood assassin most millennials have heard of? Bond is soooooo boomer.
76668

Check and mate, mate.
http://www.imfdb.org/images/8/81/Bourneid-wp5b.jpg
http://www.imfdb.org/images/8/81/Bourneid-wp5b.jpg

[Lex Luthier]

Okay, how about a badass Hollywood assassin most millennials have heard of? Bond is soooooo boomer.

Maybe it's time for Natalie Portman to reboot The Professional. One could see her as "Leon" with a suppressed Radom/Walther P99 tutoring some young sprout in the way of being quietly scary.
Maybe get a retired GIGN, GSG 9, or Carabinieri operator to teach competent gun handling.


GmanVP9 there are a number of folks here who do use Walther pistols for both competition and concealed carry. The P99 gets lots of respect from those who like the system.
There are some useful past threads here about the P99, PPQ, and a nice ongoing one about the PDP.

I personally like P99s and PPQs, they tend to work well for me.

(Admittedly I'm a weirdo, but do not wear my pants belted waaaay high above my waist, Glenn.)

[JonInWA]

Everybody is four days late and six dollars short relative to Glock. The train has simply left the station.

NOBODY can compete with Glock on price alone, particularly in bulk orders. When consider the intersection of quality/value/performance-Bout Austria!

Quality OEM mags are 25.00USD max all day long. Magpuls are typically less than 15.00USD and are fine for practice and duty worthy once numbered and vetted.

You can train anybody to maintain/repair one in the field (short of a cracked frame/barrel/slide) and give them a literal tackle box full of parts to do it in 24 training hours or less.

Holster/sights/mag pouch support is so ubiquitous that there are big box retailers that can meet your needs let alone, LGSs, LEO oriented shops and Amazon.

Glocks simply work relative to other platforms across a wide variety of users/calibers/number of pistols in service.

The sub 600.00 gun to the public/ 450.00 gun to the agency with night sights and 3 mags war is over. Glock Won.

FWIW, I have heard that Glock will essentially trade a New G17/19 with 3 mags and night sights for any pistol used by an agency if that agency is not presently using Glock, give them the armorer's training and an agency parts kit, sell them some extra mags and everybody is happy. I would like hear anybody with 1st hand knowledge on this issue if i am mistaken as I admitted do not have such.


The following is moderately sarcastic sprinkled with truth re polymer pistols.

HK not even close on price/support etc.

SA XD....... cue crickets and owls please

Walther for all the reasons mentioned above

Beretta...not so much.

FN- who?


CZ- stay in your lane


Ruger- They make a duty sized polymer pistol?


All of the Turkish Knockoffs- "this really is just as good as a ... oh wait, the trigger just fell out at 204 flawless rounds."


S&W- "coulda been a "contenda"... coulda been somebody..." Gen 1 9mm accuracy issues. Gen 1 Trigger Feel issues. The last best chance squandered. S&W cant/wont make small parts readily avail. to the masses.

Sig-just when you think they can get out from under the real and perceived QC issues, they get pulled back in... i.e. the continuing 320 et al saga.


I started shooting in 1990ish when Glock was just coming on line. Everybody has been saying they have the next Glock Killer every year. 30 + years later, we are still waiting.

David, one of your best posts ever-we tend to forget that you have far more knowledge and perspectives beyond the excellence of your grips.

Best, Jon

[vcdgrips]

Jon:

You are too kind. Thank you, Sir.

I have also been blessed to have 4 shooting mentors over the last 30ish years who were/are profoundly unselfish with their time, talent and treasure.(Maj. Doug Smith, USAR RIP/Mr. Tom Givens/Mr. Todd Louis Green RIP and Sgt. Ward Smith, KCPD Rangemaster.)

[Hot Sauce]

I think if anything is a common factor, besides for support and marketing issues we've highlighted, is that Walther isn't really good at doing market research and fully understanding what any intended audience wants.

The issues with the way they approached the American LE crowd have been well documented here. They didn't understand their audience. I'm not sure it was even marketed as police pistol in Europe, either. @P30 (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=2372) can correct me if I'm wrong, but I've read that the PPQ/PDP as presented to the American market has too light a trigger to be allowed into German police service.

I like the PPQ as a range/competition toy, but their research and design logic if they were trying to sell to the American CCW crowd was iffy. It is true that there was a significant population seeking a sweeter trigger, so they got that part right.

But Walther, like HK, made a Centurion/G45 style full size frame+mid size barrel gun to compete with the G19. So they understood only part of the needs of their audience. I'd hate to be a cynic, but they probably thought it's easiest to just grab a pre-existing frame mold and alter it slightly, and grab a pre-existing well working magazine and alter it slightly (re: PDP full size mags, in retrospect a wise decision).

The PDP, with the optic compatibility (+) but extra fatty slide and further lightened trigger seems to me to be tailored even further for gaming and away from the defense/carry crowd.

I suspect that when they get it close to just right with a design (like the PPS) it is more dumb luck than anything else.

[JonInWA]

Another huge factor in favor of Glock when it comes to organizational sales is the speed and simplicity of detailed disassembly and reassembly. In a time of constrained organizational resources (both time and money) decreased maintenance staffing, allocation time and budgets can be a huge factor in platform selection.

I simply (no pun intended) can't think of ANY platform better than Glock in that regard. And when you then factor in the intrinsic qualities of the pistols themselves...and the huge amount of off-the-shelf credible aftermarket support gear available for Glocks, it's often "game over.'

Best, Jon

[fatdog]

Walther couldn't market free sex with supermodels at a Star Trek convention.

If Walther ran a sushi restaurant the sign out front would say "cold, dead, raw fish, come eat"

[P30]

I'm not sure it was even marketed as police pistol in Europe, either. P30 can correct me if I'm wrong, but I've read that the PPQ/PDP as presented to the American market has too light a trigger to be allowed into German police service.
Yes, you are right. According to TR, the PPQ trigger is too light, it can not be a police pistol in Germany.

Details:

TR = "Technische Richtlinie" = Technical guideline. It's a specification that a pistol must fulfill in order to be allowed as police pistol in Germany.
Current version: TR-Pistolen_9mmx19_Stand_24-06-2021.pdf (https://www.dhpol.de/microsite/pti/medien/downloads/richtlinien/technische-richtlinien/pistole/TR-Pistolen_9mmx19_Stand_24-06-2021.pdf)
From page 9:

Erster Schuss:
• Mindestwert für den Abzugswiderstand 30 N
It means, the first shot must have a trigger pull force of at least 30 N.


But there is a similar model called P99Q (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walther_P99#P99Q_police_pistol):

It fulfills the TR and is the police pistol of several German federal states (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_von_Dienstwaffen_der_deutschen_Sicherheitsbe h%C3%B6rden#Polizeivollzugsdienst).
It has a constant trigger pull of 32 N.


PS:
I know that GSG 9 uses the Glock 17. It has a lighter trigger pull than 30 N. So TR apparently does not apply to GSG 9. GSG 9 are the special forces of the German Federal Police ("Bundespolizei"). It's Germany's strongest police force, founded to fight terrorism.

[TGS]

Hot Sauce

Tagging onto market research, I think one of their biggest failings is not having a compatible family of guns (sub compact, compact, full-size, XL) like Glock, S&W, H&K, SIG et al have. People like being able to share holsters and mags. Walther's "family" has always been quite limited; you could get a P99 and P99C, but not a full-size P99. You can get a large combination of compact and fullsizes with the PPQ and PDP, but no subcompact.

It's an obvious failure in their lineup...they're needlessly shooting themselves in the foot when they're already disadvantaged to begin with given Glock's market share. The only thing I can imagine is poor market research, I can't think of any technical reason that would keep them from producing a full lineup of PPQ/PDP pistols.

I think that's a failing Glock has with their 43 series that limits their success....albeit a smaller degree since they were a late market entry and the P365 came out so quickly after the 43, which sort of changed the game. All the same though, I remember quite a bit of sourness about the 43 and 43X/48 not have mag compatibility, and I'm positive that impacted sales in a negative way even though I can't quantify it.

[Hot Sauce]

Yes, you are right. According to TR, the PPQ trigger is too light, it can not be a police pistol in Germany.

Details:

TR = "Technische Richtlinie" = Technical guideline. It's a specification that a pistol must fulfill in order to be allowed as police pistol in Germany.
Current version: TR-Pistolen_9mmx19_Stand_24-06-2021.pdf (https://www.dhpol.de/microsite/pti/medien/downloads/richtlinien/technische-richtlinien/pistole/TR-Pistolen_9mmx19_Stand_24-06-2021.pdf)
From page 9:

It means, the first shot must have a trigger pull force of at least 30 N.


But there is a similar model called P99Q (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walther_P99#P99Q_police_pistol):

It fulfills the TR and is the police pistol of several German federal states (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_von_Dienstwaffen_der_deutschen_Sicherheitsbe h%C3%B6rden#Polizeivollzugsdienst).
It has a constant trigger pull of 32 N.



Wow. HK's dominance is intense, even more so when it comes to bigger police department that number in the tens of thousands. The only one of that sort that uses Walthers is North Rhine-Westphalia, and even then, that's a P99 DAO.

Very useful info, thank you.


@Hot Sauce (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=10628)

Tagging onto market research, I think one of their biggest failings is not having a compatible family of guns (sub compact, compact, full-size, XL) like Glock, S&W, H&K, SIG et al have. People like being able to share holsters and mags. Walther's "family" has always been quite limited; you could get a P99 and P99C, but not a full-size P99. You can get a large combination of compact and fullsizes with the PPQ and PDP, but no subcompact.

It's an obvious failure in their lineup...they're needlessly shooting themselves in the foot when they're already disadvantaged to begin with given Glock's market share. The only thing I can imagine is poor market research, I can't think of any technical reason that would keep them from producing a full lineup of PPQ/PDP pistols.

I think that's a failing Glock has with their 43 series that limits their success....albeit a smaller degree since they were a late market entry and the P365 came out so quickly after the 43, which sort of changed the game. All the same though, I remember quite a bit of sourness about the 43 and 43X/48 not have mag compatibility, and I'm positive that impacted sales in a negative way even though I can't quantify it.

RE: To add onto the use of a family of guns point, there are some technical issues with using larger Walther mags in smaller guns due to there being no overinsertion stop. So I understand that, and don't begrudge them for not coming up with a technical solution, not like Walther is a company that does engineering or anything.

But let's not forget the PPQ M1 to M2 mag fiasco. They just didn't think this would piss anyone off, which shows that they understand little about who they're trying to sell to.

https://i.imgur.com/sfkxlH8.jpg

They could have simplified logistics not just for customers, but for themselves, by cutting both types of holes and making them cross-compatible. This was not a technical problem, it was lack of awareness.

There's a major disconnect between customers, market research team (is there one?), design team, and marketing team (there is a marketing team, right?).

[HCM]

Yes, you are right. According to TR, the PPQ trigger is too light, it can not be a police pistol in Germany.

Details:

TR = "Technische Richtlinie" = Technical guideline. It's a specification that a pistol must fulfill in order to be allowed as police pistol in Germany.
Current version: TR-Pistolen_9mmx19_Stand_24-06-2021.pdf (https://www.dhpol.de/microsite/pti/medien/downloads/richtlinien/technische-richtlinien/pistole/TR-Pistolen_9mmx19_Stand_24-06-2021.pdf)
From page 9:

It means, the first shot must have a trigger pull force of at least 30 N.


But there is a similar model called P99Q (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walther_P99#P99Q_police_pistol):

It fulfills the TR and is the police pistol of several German federal states (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_von_Dienstwaffen_der_deutschen_Sicherheitsbe h%C3%B6rden#Polizeivollzugsdienst).
It has a constant trigger pull of 32 N.


PS:
I know that GSG 9 uses the Glock 17. It has a lighter trigger pull than 30 N. So TR apparently does not apply to GSG 9. GSG 9 are the special forces of the German Federal Police (Bundespolizei). It's Germany's strongest police force, founded to fight terrorism.

Doesn't Walther also have some other large EU police contracts for the P99Q or QA in Poland and Portugal ?

[HCM]

Hot Sauce

Tagging onto market research, I think one of their biggest failings is not having a compatible family of guns (sub compact, compact, full-size, XL) like Glock, S&W, H&K, SIG et al have. People like being able to share holsters and mags. Walther's "family" has always been quite limited; you could get a P99 and P99C, but not a full-size P99. You can get a large combination of compact and fullsizes with the PPQ and PDP, but no subcompact.

It's an obvious failure in their lineup...they're needlessly shooting themselves in the foot when they're already disadvantaged to begin with given Glock's market share. The only thing I can imagine is poor market research, I can't think of any technical reason that would keep them from producing a full lineup of PPQ/PDP pistols.



Yup. Agencies now want a "system" which includes multiple compatible sizes and training pistols such as red handle dummy guns and blue handle simmunitions guns.

[P30]

Doesn't Walther also have some other large EU police contracts for the P99Q or QA in Poland and Portugal ?
Poland: positive. Portugal: They use a Walther but I don't know the model.

Also the police of the Netherlands uses the P99Q (45,000 pistols).

Source:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walther_P99#Users (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walther_P99#Users)

[HCM]

Poland: positive. Portugal: They use a Walther but I don't know the model.

Also the police of the Netherlands uses the P99Q (45,000 pistols).

Source:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walther_P99#Users (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walther_P99#Users)

Was the P99Q what replaced their ill fated adoption of the SIG P250 ?

As I recall they had Walther P5 or P5C’s prior to the P250 disaster.

[JDrive]

PDP 18rd mags list at $49 and are basically unavailable. They are already on Gen2 mags due to feed issues with the originals.

How do I know which Gen I have? Just bought 4 @ 49.00 each


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Trooper224]

76668

Check and mate, mate.
http://www.imfdb.org/images/8/81/Bourneid-wp5b.jpg
http://www.imfdb.org/images/8/81/Bourneid-wp5b.jpg

https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/55521651.jpg

[Joe in PNG]

"Oh, yeah... Walther" is what comes to mind the few times they come to mind.
And then they're pretty much forgotten.

I don't think there's much space in the already crowded SFA plastic people popper market, to tell the sad truth.

[Trooper224]

Maybe it's time for Natalie Portman to reboot The Professional. One could see her as "Leon" with a suppressed Radom/Walther P99 tutoring some young sprout in the way of being quietly scary.
Maybe get a retired GIGN, GSG 9, or Carabinieri operator to teach competent gun handling.


GmanVP9 there are a number of folks here who do use Walther pistols for both competition and concealed carry. The P99 gets lots of respect from those who like the system.
There are some useful past threads here about the P99, PPQ, and a nice ongoing one about the PDP.

I personally like P99s and PPQs, they tend to work well for me.

(Admittedly I'm a weirdo, but do not wear my pants belted waaaay high above my waist, Glenn.)

I'd buy a ticket to watch Natalie Portman boil water, so I'd be all for it.

I carried a five inch PPQ for a while and really enjoyed it, except for the grip. The supposedly ergonomic grip just didn't work for me. It always felt as if it was going to squirt out of my hand at any minute, no matter what I tried. Shot well though.

[Wonder9]

NOBODY can compete with Glock on price alone, particularly in bulk orders.


76680

Still agree with your points though.

[Elwin]

I'd buy a ticket to watch Natalie Portman boil water, so I'd be all for it.

I carried a five inch PPQ for a while and really enjoyed it, except for the grip. The supposedly ergonomic grip just didn't work for me. It always felt as if it was going to squirt out of my hand at any minute, no matter what I tried. Shot well though.

I stippled my P99s and the PPS, and if our PPQ was mine I’d take a wood burner to it too. I understand why that’s not an option for everyone, and I agree the factory texture should be better on something marketed as being ready for serious use. It doesn’t have to be as good as an M&P, but there’s no reason it should be worse than a Glock.

But that’s another valid point against. For me at least, PPS, PPQ, and P99 line pistols aren’t ready to go until the grip is fixed. In retrospect, if I’m going to put that kind of work in, I may as well do it to a Glock.

[LittleLebowski]

For me, it’s the recoil pulse in Walter 9mms that feels like Glock 40s.

[Trooper224]

I stippled my P99s and the PPS, and if our PPQ was mine I’d take a wood burner to it too. I understand why that’s not an option for everyone, and I agree the factory texture should be better on something marketed as being ready for serious use. It doesn’t have to be as good as an M&P, but there’s no reason it should be worse than a Glock.

But that’s another valid point against. For me at least, PPS, PPQ, and P99 line pistols aren’t ready to go until the grip is fixed. In retrospect, if I’m going to put that kind of work in, I may as well do it to a Glock.

My issue was the grips shape, not the texture. Unfortunately, not much to be done about that.

[Jumme]

Was the P99Q what replaced their ill fated adoption of the SIG P250 ?

As I recall they had Walther P5 or P5C’s prior to the P250 disaster.



The Sig P250 never made it to the fieldingstage, thankfully…. In the the final T&E there were just too much issues with reliability/durability..

After a renewed tender the Walther P99Q was selected to replace the aging P5’s, which started around 2014.. In both cases the Dutch based their technical specifications largely on the German TR mentioned by P30…


Regards

[willie]

Walther couldn't market free sex with supermodels at a Star Trek convention.

I'd stand in line at that booth! :cool:

[That Guy]

The original 15 rounder P99 mags

Well, actually ( :) ) the original P99 magazines were 16 rounders. If I recall correctly (and it's quite possible that I don't), the chance to 15 round magazines came with the release of the gen 2 P99.


Walther's "family" has always been quite limited; you could get a P99 and P99C, but not a full-size P99.

Don't you mean you couldn't get a subcompact P99? Since the P99 is a full size pistol - the way it's shaped makes it seem smaller, but it's almost exactly the same size as a Glock 17.


My issue was the grips shape, not the texture. Unfortunately, not much to be done about that.

Both me and my girlfriend use Hogue grip sleeves meant for Glocks to bulk up the grip. The rear corner of the sleeve needs to be snipped off in order for the sleeve to fit the shape of the P99 grip but that takes about two seconds with a pair of scissors, and since neither of us are fans of finger grooves I sand those down as much as possible, which unfortunately takes a lot longer.

[sikiguya]

I agree and disagree with this. Walther’s line is a mixed bag.

Love the PPQ line. I now have 7 of them. 3-4” model, a 5”, and 3 Q5 match. Half of of them are set up loaded as my bump in the night guns.

The PDP is a nice evolution but not enough for me to transition into.

The steel frame are cool as hell but only the 5” model. That might be an acquisition in the future. The 4” model is too heavy for its intended use.

The PPS and PPS M2…are really nice on paper. I bought both wanting to love them. But after 4 mags each, they were destined to be sold. Form factor be damned, just didn’t like shooting them. Just felt like a 2x4 in my hands.

I suspect Walther will have a P365 model this upcoming year along with H&K and CZ.

The CPP…great concept…but not the H&K P7 we were expecting.

The PPK will remain a classic.

The Uramex guns, I don’t consider them Walther.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[TGS]

Don't you mean you couldn't get a subcompact P99? Since the P99 is a full size pistol - the way it's shaped makes it seem smaller, but it's almost exactly the same size as a Glock 17.

In its definitive form as sold on the US market, it's a 4" barreled gun with a 15 round magazine. Thus, I've always considered it to be a compact gun, as that's squarely within the industry standard for a compact sized gun of its era/type. The P99c, being a 3.5" barreled, double stack 10 round magazine, two-finger grip gun (sans pinky extension), squarely fits into the sub-compact category.

A fullsize P99 would be a 4.5 or 5" barreled gun with a 17 or 18 round magazine, just like how the current PDP lineup refers to their fullsize frame as being the 18 round option, while the compact is the 15 round option. Granted, variety is the spice of life these days with pistols, so you can get their fullsize in as short as a 4" barrel sort of splitting the difference ala Glock 19X.

The P99 is a compact sized gun. I'm not really interested in an argument of semantics, though, and if you disagree then let's just agree to disagree right now.

[revchuck38]

I'm on the Walther train because only they made what I was looking for at the time - a G26-sized DA/SA pistol. Accessory support is pretty slim and took some time to assemble. My OWB is a Kramer Belt Scabbard - oh darn, what a sacrifice. :) I've got two P99Cs, and they've been excellent. When working up 9x19 handloads, I pull the barrel off one of them for the plunk test due to the tight dimensions. Both pistols are on their third set of sights - factory, then Dawson, then Dawson .145 rear matched with a Night Fision front sight. Now that I've got them the way I want them, they're not going anywhere.