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Archer1440
08-26-2021, 12:30 PM
Email just dropped:

To The USPSA Membership,

The evening of 8/24/2021 the USPSA Board of Directors met to vote on an issue concerning the USPSA President Mike Foley. The Board of Directors, as authorized by Section 7.7 of the USPSA Bylaws, has elected to make a change in leadership.

Effective 8/24/2021 Mike Foley has been removed as President and is no longer an employee of USPSA.

We thank Mike for his service to USPSA and wish him well in his future endeavors.

As per the USPSA Bylaws, Section 6.1, Sherwyn Greenfield as Vice President shall serve as Interim President effective immediately.

This change requires the start of the process for a special election. Please watch for announcements for further details and timeline for the special election.


There is some discussion on this on the ‘AIWB’ thread, but posting as a fresh thread for those who wish to discuss.

RJ
08-26-2021, 12:49 PM
Good.

fatdog
08-26-2021, 12:55 PM
Hope we elect a worthy replacement. That guy was his own worst enemy. Not every idea he had was bad, but organizations cannot grow and thrive with that sort of completely toxic personality trying to run them. Now if we can just get LaPierre out...

Clusterfrack
08-26-2021, 01:18 PM
... Is it more focus on the top talent? Is it more focus on the newer members? Will see.


I don't think there's a necessary conflict between the two. A problem with Foley was his focus on maximizing income and pandering to industry partners. USPSA is a non-profit sport governing body. The focus should be on making USPSA fair, competitive, and fun for all members. As well, a major role of USPSA is to field a world class IPSC team.

Bottom line: USPSA shouldn't be run like a for-profit business.

Shoresy
08-26-2021, 01:25 PM
Well, bye.

cheby
08-26-2021, 01:33 PM
Not every idea he had was bad.

I dunno... 59oz weight limit, flashlights, 140mm mags in CO while staying with 10rd in Production... I am not going to mention PCC... oops, I just did

SsevenN
08-26-2021, 01:39 PM
Who ever the next President is, please do 15 round PROD/CO, thank youuuu. :cool:

Clusterfrack
08-26-2021, 01:41 PM
Add:
Bizarre and arbitrary HHFs on classifiers, with inconsistent difficulty among divisions.

Zincwarrior
08-26-2021, 01:43 PM
Er, how would that be on the President though? Times related to classifiers appears very low level. Maybe I am missing something though.

EDIT: I did not understand the multiple rapid changes in Production, or how it helped the USPSA however.

JCN
08-26-2021, 01:59 PM
I dunno... 59oz weight limit, flashlights, 140mm mags in CO while staying with 10rd in Production... I am not going to mention PCC... oops, I just did

See, I like all those things and wouldn’t have started in USPSA if it weren’t.

cheby
08-26-2021, 02:03 PM
Who ever the next President is, please do 15 round PROD/CO, thank youuuu. :cool:

Second that!

JCN
08-26-2021, 02:07 PM
Second that!

Yeah, no thanks on the 15 round CO.

Reloading is dumb. :D

YVK
08-26-2021, 02:39 PM
See, I like all those things and wouldn’t have started in USPSA if it weren’t.

I am gonna split the difference and say that I liked some but not others. Ultimately, as already pointed elsewhere in a different way, the BoD did not do this when those changes were introduced. I myself don't expect any rollback on those.

I wouldn't enjoy 15 rounds CO as much but I'd survive it. I would shoot Production from time to time if it had 15 rounds. I would applaud rolling back 4 pounds weight "limits".

RJ
08-26-2021, 02:51 PM
I am gonna split the difference and say that I liked some but not others. Ultimately, as already pointed elsewhere in a different way, the BoD did not do this when those changes were introduced. I myself don't expect any rollback on those.

I wouldn't enjoy 15 rounds CO as much but I'd survive it. I would shoot Production from time to time if it had 15 rounds. I would applaud rolling back 4 pounds weight "limits".

I shot my first CO match Monday, 21 round mags and not reloading for 18 round stages was bliss. :cool:

Artemas2
08-26-2021, 03:08 PM
Who ever the next President is, please do 15 round PROD/CO, thank youuuu. :cool:

*Looks at $700 worth of CZ 10 round NY compliant mags*...how about no:cool:

For real though I don't see the appeal of pro 15. I shot a few matches in limited early this year and the added capacity did nothing to my stage plan or even affect my times that much. The only times where it was frustration was the occasional bad stage with "legal" 10-12 round positions. When there is participation, those stages highlight who practices their reloads. Which I do believe is a pretty core skill in gun handling that should be tested.

On the larger scale it won't save production, too many people discovered that red dots allow you to shoot faster and more accurately. I am currently signed up at a level 2 match in NY, CO has more people than all of the iron sighted divisions combined.
It's the same story with the local matches I shoot up there as well. It's not the round count keeping people out of production.

On topic, Foley was a dick and hopefully the new guy isn't and can competently do his job and keep the sport viable.

YVK
08-26-2021, 03:11 PM
I shot my first CO match Monday, 21 round mags and not reloading for 18 round stages was bliss. :cool:

I quit Production because of mag capacity, not because I wanted the dot. I really think that SS should be sufficient to cover needs of those who want low cap.

JCN
08-26-2021, 03:18 PM
When there is participation, those stages highlight who practices their reloads. Which I do believe is a pretty core skill in gun handling that should be tested.

I disagree though.

I can do 0.80 reloads.


https://youtu.be/d1wIo3eTIwE

But I still think they’re stupid.

Why should they be tested more than once per stage if that? Especially if you’re talking about civilians who will likely never have to reload in a gunfight?

I like USPSA as a shooting competition, not a reloading competition. Even though I can do it competently. I don’t see the point past a certain level of emphasis.

RJ
08-26-2021, 03:18 PM
...and here come the memes...

76355

Artemas2
08-26-2021, 03:25 PM
I disagree though.

I can do 0.80 reloads.


But I still think they’re stupid.

Why should they be tested more than once per stage if that? Especially if you’re talking about civilians who will likely never have to reload in a gunfight?

I can do any thing real good once! I don't equate USPSA to gun fights so to that I don't care.
I like reloading and working all aspects of the gun maybe it's a zen thing I am not sure. I know I am in the minority on this and that's ok (even if the most vocal about this don't nor ever will shoot production...)

JCN
08-26-2021, 03:28 PM
I can do any thing real good once! I don't equate USPSA to gun fights so to that I don't care.
I like reloading and working all aspects of the gun maybe it's a zen thing I am not sure. I know I am in the minority on this and that's ok (even if the most vocal about this don't nor ever will shoot production...)

Maybe we should have stages where we have to field strip the gun in the middle and put it back together?

Artemas2
08-26-2021, 03:31 PM
Maybe we should have stages where we have to field strip the gun in the middle and put it back together?

I did that at an outlaw IDPA match before. Slide and frame where on different barrels and had to be assembled then loaded on the clock!

.96 was my bestest ever reload, but somewhere around 1.2 is where my consistent spot is. Not super sure why this is germane to the issue though.

Zincwarrior
08-26-2021, 03:33 PM
Maybe we should have stages where we have to field strip the gun in the middle and put it back together?

Inversely, one can argue, shooting is shooting not movement, so all the moving and weird positions in USPSA are just bad Crossfit, and have absolutely no place in a shooting sport. :rolleyes:

But this should be done properly. The first President that promises "a case of ammo in every pot!" has my vote.

JCN
08-26-2021, 03:37 PM
I did that at on outlaw IDPA match before. Slide and frame where on different barrels and had to be assembled then loaded on the clock!

.96 was my bestest ever reload, but somewhere around 1.2 is where my consistent spot is. Not super sure why this is germane to the issue though.

I was referring to the suggestion that people don’t like things because they don’t practice / they’re not competent / good at them. So I was countering that I am good at it, but I think it’s stupid. I only practiced them because it was necessary to make GM. Now I’m happy to not practice them much any more again. I’ll run open before running CO15.

Bucky
08-26-2021, 03:56 PM
I really think that SS should be sufficient to cover needs of those who want low cap.

How about those that don’t necessarily want low cap, but are legally bound to it? Sure, all divisions are low cap in the state, but then those shooters are severely restricted at sectional, area, and nationals.

cheby
08-26-2021, 04:13 PM
How about those that don’t necessarily want low cap, but are legally bound to it? Sure, all divisions are low cap in the state, but then those shooters are severely restricted at sectional, area, and nationals.

They didn't care for them when they made 140mm mags in CO but did not change it for production, right? This is an example how inconsistent and selective Foley was, BTW.

Bucky
08-26-2021, 04:19 PM
They didn't care of them when they made 140mm mags in CO but did not change it for production, right? This is an example how inconsistent and selective Foley was, BTW.

Agree. When CO was provisional, I was going to convert my G35 to CO, as it was 10 rounds. The rule changed before I could send out the slide, and I sent a 34 slide instead.

Our clubs had an ongoing joke with this nonsense all year. It would go like this, no you’re quoting the April rule book, we’re using the May rule book now. More than anything else, we need a return to rule stability.

BWT
08-26-2021, 04:49 PM
I sign up for USPSA Tuesday. They fire the President Thursday.

Man - I didn’t know I’d break it this bad guys.

Jim Watson
08-26-2021, 04:57 PM
Maybe we should have stages where we have to field strip the gun in the middle and put it back together?

I saw the local SWAT team doing that.

cheby
08-26-2021, 04:58 PM
Arguments for 15rds in Production and CO:

1. Make rules closer to IPSC
2. 140mm extension and springs make guns less reliable
3. Most factory guns have standard capacity over 15rds
4. Stages do not have to be 30rds all the time to be interesting and testing your shooting skills – again look at IPSC

Here are some more good arguments for Prod-15:
https://berryshooting.com/blog/the-case-for-15-round-production/


I no longer shoot Production. The main reason is not the reloads, it is the lack of participation and competition. Even though I have not shot Production since 2018 I still practice my reloads religiously. My personal record on 4As is 1.79sec with reload around 0.7. Obviously, I can’t do it on demand, it was just a fun game to chase at some point. If Production becomes the most competitive and popular division again, like it was in 2015-2016, I will happily shoot it again regardless of the capacity.

fatdog
08-26-2021, 05:02 PM
we need a return to rule stability.

That is the #1 complaint I hear from the people in our clubs locally...all seem to blame Foley and his approach.

As far as the newer divisions.

It does seem that CO with 140mm and relaxed holster/mag position has attracted a lot of shooters to that division locally, especially younger shooters from my observation, but not clear if it was the reason they were attracted to USPSA.

PCC seems to have sucked in a large number of veteran competitors at our club level match, at the expense of Limited and Open guns that are now sitting at home for those same folks.

JCN
08-26-2021, 05:06 PM
Arguments for 15rds in Production and CO:

1. Make rules closer to IPSC
2. 140mm extension and springs make guns less reliable
3. Most factory guns have standard capacity over 15rds
4. Stages do not have to be 30rds all the time to be interesting and testing your shooting skills – again look at IPSC

Here are some more good arguments for Prod-15:
https://berryshooting.com/blog/the-case-for-15-round-production/


I no longer shoot Production. The main reason is not the reloads, it is the lack of participation and competition. Even though I have not shot Production since 2018 I still practice my reloads religiously. My personal record on 4As is 1.79sec with reload around 0.7. Obviously, I can’t do it on demand, it was just fun game to chase at some point. If Production becomes the most competitive and popular division again, like it was in 2015-2016, I will happily shoot it again regardless of the capacity.

I think if you make Production and CO same capacity, you might just make CO less popular and may not help Production at all.

1. I don't care about IPSC personally.
2. Wimpy gamer ammo makes guns less reliable too without changing recoil springs.
3. Many full size factory guns have capacity in the 17 range, so downloading factory mags could be seen as silly and less desirable.
4. Doesn't change that Open and PCC have 38-40 round capacity.

IMO as a Carry Optics guy, I think you're looking at it the wrong way. I don't care about Production or SS. I want to have less gap to Open and PCC, so as much capacity as I can get to get closer to them, that's what I want.

People have overall bragging rights enjoyment even though it's not a competition across divisions. I want a gun I can buy off the shelf ammo that runs reliably with a dot that I can have large capacity similar to Open and PCC.

CO15 won't do anything but hurt CO.

Cheap Shot
08-26-2021, 05:32 PM
Sorry to see Foley go.

Before Foley we had weak and incompetent leadership in USPSA. Wish him well and we'll see what happens next.

“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.”
― Theodore Roosevelt

CleverNickname
08-26-2021, 05:36 PM
Arguments for 15rds in Production and CO:

1. Make rules closer to IPSC
2. 140mm extension and springs make guns less reliable
3. Most factory guns have standard capacity over 15rds
4. Stages do not have to be 30rds all the time to be interesting and testing your shooting skills – again look at IPSC

I don't particularly care too much what Production is set to since I don't shoot Production, but I don't want CO set to 15 rounds.

1. The number of people who care about IPSC rules in the US is vanishingly small.
2. No one forces anybody to run magazine extensions. If someone's gun doesn't work with extensions, then maybe they should get extensions that aren't terrible, or just run factory mags with no extensions. The cost of buying extensions is minimal compared to overall costs, as long as you're shooting more than a couple matches, so I don't see that as preventing anyone from competing. Newbies (i.e. people without extensions) aren't going to be winning matches anyways.

I do dislike mag capacity limits in general though because then when I'm an RO I have to count the number of rounds shot. More than 10 and I run out of fingers! ;)

Lon
08-26-2021, 06:05 PM
I don’t worry too much about how he changed the equipment rules. I build whatever gun I want and shoot whatever division it will work in. Before CO was a thing I shot what was basically a CO gun in open class because the gun was my work or carry gun. And before that I ran a limited minor pistol because it was my duty pistol and Production wasn’t a thing yet. I’m gonna run my comped G26 in open Labor Day weekend when I go shoot a match.

Mike seemed like a decent guy the few times I talked with him at major matches, but he did some dumb shit and has to suffer the consequences. I hope he lands on his feet and learns from this. I’ve seen a lot of dumb shit in USPSA in the 28 years I’ve been a member, this is just the most recent episode. I try not to get too worked up about stuff anymore.

YVK
08-26-2021, 06:11 PM
Not directed at anyone else but, if 15 rounds CO were to be a turnoff and people want highest cap, why stop at 140 mm? Why not 170? Why not 33 round Glock sticks?

If anything, this thread shows how hard it is for any leadership to please everyone, seeing that a lot of dudes enthusiastic about the game disagree on preferences.

Cheap Shot
08-26-2021, 06:17 PM
Not directed at anyone else but, if 15 rounds CO were to be a turnoff and people want highest cap, why stop at 140 mm? Why not 170? Why not 33 round Glock sticks?

If anything, this thread shows how hard it is for any leadership to please everyone, seeing that a lot of dudes enthusiastic about the game disagree on preferences.

The Micro-compliant:Nothing to small to whine about:

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/15/fashion/the-microcomplaint-nothing-too-small-to-whine-about.html?_r=0

Zincwarrior
08-26-2021, 06:18 PM
I sign up for USPSA Tuesday. They fire the President Thursday.

Man - I didn’t know I’d break it this bad guys.

It's all your fault!

JCN
08-26-2021, 06:22 PM
Not directed at anyone else but, if 15 rounds CO were to be a turnoff and people want highest cap, why stop at 140 mm? Why not 170? Why not 33 round Glock sticks?

If anything, this thread shows how hard it is for any leadership to please everyone, seeing that a lot of dudes enthusiastic about the game disagree on preferences.

140mm is the Limited mag length, so it makes for a decent length benchmark.

I wouldn’t mind if multiple divisions including PCC were limited to 140mm.

They should have a presidential debate with a moderator who asks them their stance of CO15/production15.

Snapshot
08-26-2021, 06:46 PM
I have never met Mr. Foley but recall he had some issues previously with his choice of words. At that level they matter, even if there was history / provocation / whatever. I am sure there are other people who can do a good job for USPSA.

Here in Canada we mostly shoot IPSC and all (civilian) handgun magazines are maximum 10 rounds. So we do a lot of reloads, especially on "revolver-friendly" stages with multiple positions each with three targets. Pre-pandemic there were a lot of great USPSA matches on the U.S. side of the border, I shot L10 or Production, people shooting Open and Limited sometimes had arrangements with buddies to use suitable magazines in USPSA matches. Hopefully those days will return soon, for now the border is still mostly closed because "they" don't seem to believe USPSA matches are essential.

Cheap Shot
08-26-2021, 07:07 PM
I have never met Mr. Foley but recall he had some issues previously with his choice of words. At that level they matter, even if there was history / provocation / whatever. I am sure there are other people who can do a good job for USPSA.

Here in Canada we mostly shoot IPSC and all (civilian) handgun magazines are maximum 10 rounds. So we do a lot of reloads, especially on "revolver-friendly" stages with multiple positions each with three targets. Pre-pandemic there were a lot of great USPSA matches on the U.S. side of the border, I shot L10 or Production, people shooting Open and Limited sometimes had arrangements with buddies to use suitable magazines in USPSA matches. Hopefully those days will return soon, for now the border is still mostly closed because "they" don't seem to believe USPSA matches are essential.

Source?

nwhpfan
08-26-2021, 07:11 PM
He got "future endeavored..."

Where I come from that means f-off and we're glad you're gone.

Snapshot
08-26-2021, 07:19 PM
Source?
Sorry no "source" because I don't know all the USPSA people. It is a pretty big organization.

I have met Jake Martens at the Indiana matches and he seemed very professional and personable, I have no idea if he would be willing to serve as President.

Lon
08-26-2021, 07:32 PM
Sorry no "source" because I don't know all the USPSA people. It is a pretty big organization.

I have met Jake Martens at the Indiana matches and he seemed very professional and personable, I have no idea if he would be willing to serve as President.

Jake did a fantastic job with the IN 400 matches he put together. Great matches. He’s a nice guy too. I’d vote for him.

MVS
08-26-2021, 08:04 PM
Matt Hopkins is the next USPSA president.

Cheap Shot
08-26-2021, 08:08 PM
Jake did a fantastic job with the IN 400 matches he put together. Great matches. He’s a nice guy too. I’d vote for him.

Agreed Jake comes across as very competent, as do a lot of the BOD, IMHO. I have less faith is the vocal minority of USPSA members with ulterior motives, i.e. Stoeger, bloggers et al. They're unwilling to step up and work towards making things better, but are incessant whiners with major entitlement issues.

Got a problem, STFU, step up and work to fix it. Take responsibility and accountability.

SsevenN
08-26-2021, 08:09 PM
Matt Hopkins is the next USPSA president.
I have watched enough After Dark podcasts and think he would be a good fit, 15/15 PROD/CO Inbound.:cool:

Cheap Shot
08-26-2021, 08:13 PM
Matt Hopkins is the next USPSA president.

I'd like to keep an open mind. But what are his managerial and leadership qualifications? Dude is an awesome USPSA shooter but is that enough? Did he throw Foley under the bus as a career move?

Clusterfrack
08-26-2021, 08:16 PM
Matt Hopkins is the next USPSA president.

I support Matt. I expect he has manager experience in his job at CZ.

I heard him say he would not change rules without deliberate process and consultation with the members.

MVS
08-26-2021, 08:16 PM
I'd like to keep an open mind. But what are his managerial and leadership qualifications? Dude is an awesome USPSA shooter but is that enough? Did he throw Foley under the bus as a career move?


If you listen to him talk about it, he has a real vision and passion for the future of the USPSA. He is approaching looking at problems methodically. My only concern is could he step out of Ben's shadow and be his own man.

HCM
08-26-2021, 08:20 PM
I quit Production because of mag capacity, not because I wanted the dot. I really think that SS should be sufficient to cover needs of those who want low cap.

What about those stuck in ban states ?

RJ
08-26-2021, 08:23 PM
Matt Hopkins is the next USPSA president.

I was just watching him on a Practical Shooting After Dark Video. Seems like a sensible guy.

YVK
08-26-2021, 08:48 PM
What about those stuck in ban states ?

How are those folks handling Open, Limited, CO and PCC? I might be missing some nuances but what the org does with capacity rules for any division gets overriden by state rules anyway.

Artemas2
08-26-2021, 08:55 PM
How are those folks handling Open, Limited, CO and PCC? I might be missing some nuances but what the org does with capacity rules for any division gets overriden by state rules anyway.

Per USPSA rules any reduced capacity states require all hi cap divisions to be at that capacity (obviously). When it really burns is on classifiers without mandatory reloads, particularity for the open guys where the HHFs are broken enough.

Most, but not all are able to source proper mags when they leave the state for major matches. Unfortunately they still often reload when they don't have too. Nothing more sad than a 170mm mag on the ground with only 6 shots missing from it.
Regardless, at least in my area they are not shooting in locap divisions anyway. The ease of red dots is too strong, and with capacity being equal, CO easily beats everything except (sometimes)open.

cheby
08-26-2021, 09:07 PM
Did you guys notice that the conversation here is mostly about the rules, not Foley's communication style and the incidents which technically caused his departure? It does show what really triggered the whole thing and mobilized so many people.

SsevenN
08-26-2021, 09:11 PM
Did you guys notice that the conversation here is mostly about the rules, not Foley's communication style and the incidents which technically caused his departure? It does show what really triggered the whole thing and mobilized so many people.

I cannot excuse anyone else's post contributions but I can say that I am in Area 7 and simply don't have any experience with foley in person, it's reasonable to assume that is the case for the majority of us.

YVK
08-26-2021, 09:53 PM
Per USPSA rules any reduced capacity states require all hi cap divisions to be at that capacity (obviously)

I know, I know. I have shot a level II match with a team from Hawaii once. I was asking in a context of a question that HCM asked of me, which was in turn in a context of me saying that SS should be able to address the needs of folks who want to shoot low cap. I am missing how making Production a 15 round would negatively affect folks in ban states.

Jim Watson
08-26-2021, 10:05 PM
As George P. Burdell said, you can please some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can't please everybody every time.

My version of Cooper's Embarrassing Question is "If we play by your rules will you win? Will you have more fun?"

Bucky
08-26-2021, 10:06 PM
I heard him say he would not change rules without deliberate process and consultation with the members.

BINGO. This is what I want to hear. Anyone thinking they should change the rules to their will, even IF it is to my liking, is not what I want in a leader.

JCN
08-26-2021, 10:28 PM
BINGO. This is what I want to hear. Anyone thinking they should change the rules to their will, even IF it is to my liking, is not what I want in a leader.

Dunno. Part of the issue might be that what’s best for the organization might be catering to people that aren’t yet members and don’t have a voice yet.

Crotch optics Les Pepperoni is very popular with new Instagram tactical guys and we’ve seen a bunch of new blood come in this year locally.

If we cater to the existing membership exclusively USPSA might turn into FUDDIDPA

Clusterfrack
08-26-2021, 11:50 PM
Did you guys notice that the conversation here is mostly about the rules, not Foley's communication style and the incidents which technically caused his departure? It does show what really triggered the whole thing and mobilized so many people.

I don’t think so. He was removed by a board vote after an investigation. Not recalled by popular vote.

nwhpfan
08-26-2021, 11:57 PM
Did you guys notice that the conversation here is mostly about the rules, not Foley's communication style and the incidents which technically caused his departure? It does show what really triggered the whole thing and mobilized so many people.

Not many organization heads can refer to a member as a "Millennial Fag" and survive like he did. Will the members ever know what the charges were?

RJ
08-27-2021, 05:47 AM
Did you guys notice that the conversation here is mostly about the rules, not Foley's communication style and the incidents which technically caused his departure? It does show what really triggered the whole thing and mobilized so many people.

While that's true, I'm not sure the two are related.

USPSA went through a bunch of rules changes lately, that not everyone was thrilled to death with, so people want to discuss it. And what they REALLY DON'T like is unmanaged change, which seems to have happened here. Rules changes appeared arbitrarily and were introduced without a comment period. Mike Foley was President during this time, but I don't know how the club works at a national level to understand how much influence he had on the process.

However, as to his removal as President: I support it.

He first came to my attention by using homophobic slurs ("Fags") in a discussion I was following online a few years ago. It's just not appropriate, at all. In 2018, Mr. Foley was involved in a disagreement with Ben Berry, which I'm sure most have seen chronicled on Ben's web site. Most recently this year, I read of Mr. Foley's argument with Trevor Cotter at the LOCAP Nationals. This latest incident was consistent with all his previous actions.

When the BOD announced that there would be a vote on 8/24, I followed the advice of Clusterfrack and cheby and wrote to my AD (Area 6), as well as all the other ADs:


Dear xyz - I'm Rich Jenkins, USPSA member A92555.

I know you are busy, so I will be brief: I would like to voice my support for removing Mr. Mike Foley as USPSA President.

His actions, including those most recent, do not reflect the values of our organization, in my view, and he should no longer be in any leadership position.

Very sincerely,

Rich Jenkins
Venice Florida



Whether my email had any effect or not, I have no idea, but I wanted to make sure I had a chance to make my opinions known. I am very glad that the ADs voted, 7-0, for his removal, and we can as an organization move on.

DMF13
08-27-2021, 07:16 AM
Not many organization heads can refer to a member as a "Millennial Fag" and survive like he did. Will the members ever know what the charges were?Somehow I doubt it. My email gave me a link to see the Board minutes, but when you follow that link it doesn't take you to the minutes. Also, when you search for "BOD minutes" or "Board minutes" you get links for the agenda, which is just one line about holding a vote, and the most recent actual minutes posted are from three years ago.

Clearly the USPSA Board doesn't care about informing the membership of what goes on at the meetings, so I doubt they will even give us meeting minutes, let alone any real information about what transpired.

BWT
08-27-2021, 08:13 AM
Somehow I doubt it. My email gave me a link to see the Board minutes, but when you follow that link it doesn't take you to the minutes. Also, when you search for "BOD minutes" or "Board minutes" you get links for the agenda, which is just one line about holding a vote, and the most recent actual minutes posted are from three years ago.

Clearly the USPSA Board doesn't care about informing the membership of what goes on at the meetings, so I doubt they will even give us meeting minutes, let alone any real information about what transpired.

Well and to be honest, having been a part of board meetings (not as a board member but technical support) - if the guy got in fist fights at national matches and/or used the language here. Who knows what insanity happened at that meeting. The dude could’ve threatened to sue them, had a melt down of epic proportions, etc. if I were them I’d have had security there.

8:00 meeting starts
8:15 Mike comes into the meeting
8:16 Mike threatens sue, argues with Bob, and starts a tirade that lasts until 9:03
9:04 We talk about termination given the actions
9:05 Mike starts another tirade.
10:06 We remove Mike to have discussion and vote.

Whatever the case is they may not want that kind of laundry out in the open for this one. But I think recording board meetings and sharing them with the public where they cover a set of topics is a good idea IMHO. It lets us know where our board is at and candidly who has what view that’s shaping our sport and how good our representation is. Some Board members are there to collect a check (not in this board perhaps, but others) and have been chosen to be a yes man for the real power holder in those meetings.

Archer1440
08-27-2021, 09:04 AM
It’s true that the link in the email from USPSA directs us to an out of date summary page of the minutes.

Here is the correct link to the PDF document of the latest minutes, as well as a letter containing the summary results of the investigative report from a law firm that led to the board decision, which the USPSA approved for public distribution.

https://uspsa.org/documents/minutes/20210824.pdf?fbclid=IwAR3vYHhbom2sbiAuuMK7lpNvGa9m ywgAWJzYcOWppMT2rvzYRftcoqmP1bk

DMF13
08-27-2021, 09:56 AM
It’s true that the link in the email from USPSA directs us to an out of date summary page of the minutes.

Here is the correct link to the PDF document of the latest minutes, as well as a letter containing the summary results of the investigative report from a law firm that led to the board decision, which the USPSA approved for public distribution.

https://uspsa.org/documents/minutes/20210824.pdf?fbclid=IwAR3vYHhbom2sbiAuuMK7lpNvGa9m ywgAWJzYcOWppMT2rvzYRftcoqmP1bkThank you, but I'm wondering how you found it.

I searched for both terms, on the USPSA.org website, that I listed previously, which are logical search terms when looking for the information described in the email. That linked document was nowhere to be found.

Whether it was intended this way or not, making it hard to find that information gives the impression the Board is trying to "bury" that document, and hide from the truth.

DMF13
08-27-2021, 09:58 AM
Well and to be honest, having been a part of board meetings (not as a board member but technical support) - if the guy got in fist fights at national matches and/or used the language here. Who knows what insanity happened at that meeting. The dude could’ve threatened to sue them, had a melt down of epic proportions, etc. if I were them I’d have had security there.

8:00 meeting starts
8:15 Mike comes into the meeting
8:16 Mike threatens sue, argues with Bob, and starts a tirade that lasts until 9:03
9:04 We talk about termination given the actions
9:05 Mike starts another tirade.
10:06 We remove Mike to have discussion and vote.

Whatever the case is they may not want that kind of laundry out in the open for this one. But I think recording board meetings and sharing them with the public where they cover a set of topics is a good idea IMHO. It lets us know where our board is at and candidly who has what view that’s shaping our sport and how good our representation is. Some Board members are there to collect a check (not in this board perhaps, but others) and have been chosen to be a yes man for the real power holder in those meetings.I understand what you're saying, but trying to bury the facts will only lead to speculation and rumors, which are likely to hurt the reputation of the organization more than the actual facts.

This is especially true in the modern era, where the rumors will live on forever on the internet, and will be easily found by people researching the organization.

BWT
08-27-2021, 10:09 AM
I understand what you're saying, but trying to bury the facts will only lead to speculation and rumors, which are likely to hurt the reputation of the organization more than the actual facts.

This is especially true in the modern era, where the rumors will live on forever on the internet, and will be easily found by people researching the organization.

Oh I understand. I just meant like Wayne LaPiere has damaged the NRA.

Ousting the USPSA President and having that on live streamed or presented to the public could have a real bad look for us. Not just folks who are friendly to the USPSA will watch and in legal proceedings the USPSA has been used to justify legalizing things under “sporterizing, etc.” guns that the ATF says have no sporting purpose.

I think filming the actual meeting where they discuss rules, rule changes, and discuss things for vote is great. I think us seeing where they order their lunch, talk about the flight-in, how’s your momma and them, etc. is not so great.

I also think there should be things discussed behind closed doors because of NYTimes, ATF, etc. and them getting an inside view of us.

Does this make sense?

I mean really meeting minutes seems very pertinent, but to me we should also have days where they discuss with us.

I once assisted a Public board that presented to family members. There were things the board needed to have straightened out and present to the family. Day 1 was internal and Day 2 was family “Here’s what we’re doing with your company” by the head of the BoD.

I think minutes and even that would be light years from where we are presently it seems.

I dunno - I’m a nobody just voicing my opinion.

ETA:

The family members were shareholders. In my parallel - we’d be the shareholders.

RJ
08-27-2021, 10:11 AM
Thank you, but I'm wondering how you found it.

I searched for both terms, on the USPSA.org website, that I listed previously, which are logical search terms when looking for the information described in the email. That linked document was nowhere to be found.

Whether it was intended this way or not, making it hard to find that information gives the impression the Board is trying to "bury" that document, and hide from the truth.

FWIW, I was able just now to go to the uspsa web site, log in, view the "Announcements" page and see the BOD minutes for 8/24, which included the attorney statement. Same document (as far as I can tell?) that Archer1440 posted just above.

JCS
08-27-2021, 10:57 AM
I understand what you're saying, but trying to bury the facts will only lead to speculation and rumors, which are likely to hurt the reputation of the organization more than the actual facts.

This is especially true in the modern era, where the rumors will live on forever on the internet, and will be easily found by people researching the organization.

Are you a member?

USPSA sent me an email with a link to the minutes which contained the findings of the investigation. They don’t seem to be hiding anything.

Archer1440
08-27-2021, 03:10 PM
Thank you, but I'm wondering how you found it.

I searched for both terms, on the USPSA.org website, that I listed previously, which are logical search terms when looking for the information described in the email. That linked document was nowhere to be found.

Whether it was intended this way or not, making it hard to find that information gives the impression the Board is trying to "bury" that document, and hide from the truth.

It was publicly posted by the USPSA on their Facebook account, which I would think means they are actually being as transparent about this matter as you seem to want them to be.

DMF13
08-27-2021, 10:01 PM
Are you a member? Yes, and I referenced getting the email in my first post.


USPSA sent me an email with a link to the minutes which contained the findings of the investigation. They don’t seem to be hiding anything.Yesterday, and today, I followed the link, and all it turned up was the agenda for the meeting, not the minutes. Again, a search of the USPSA site, even after logging in as a member, did not show the minutes, despite what was said in the email.

Looking at all "Announcements" also does not show the documents in the link Archer provided.

If they aren't trying to bury it, why does the email only take you somewhere that will NOT provided the meeting minutes? Why won't the site allow you to find them with a keyword search?

Again, the "Agenda" for the meeting is NOT the minutes for the meeting.

DMF13
08-27-2021, 10:04 PM
It was publicly posted by the USPSA on their Facebook account, which I would think means they are actually being as transparent about this matter as you seem to want them to be.Then they should have either provided the proper link in the email, or linked to the post on Facebook. Some people, myself included, don't use Facebook, and again, whether intentional or not, giving links that don't actually don't lead to the information, and a simple keyword search on the site also doesn't provide the information gives the impression they are trying to bury the info.

Archer1440
08-27-2021, 10:35 PM
You are, by all means, entitled to your reaction. However, having worked with quite a few IT and webmaster types over the years, I tend to attribute that sort of thing to incompetence in the communications chain rather than something sinister.

People do, often, make mistakes, after all, especially with web-based stuff.

Also, and no insult intended, the truth is that any modern third grader could have found those documents via Google inside 20 seconds, to be fair about it.

DMF13
08-27-2021, 11:14 PM
Also, and no insult intended, the truth is that any modern third grader could have found those documents via Google inside 20 seconds, to be fair about it.The point is, if you're not trying to bury the information, don't make people, especially the people who are part of the organization, have to dig around to find it. Why should someone have to try to find it via an external search engine, when neither the provided link, or the organizations own site search engine, will turn up the information.

BigD
08-27-2021, 11:36 PM
Clearly the USPSA Board doesn't care about informing the membership of what goes on at the meetings, so I doubt they will even give us meeting minutes, let alone any real information about what transpired.


The point is, if you're not trying to bury the information, don't make people, especially the people who are part of the organization, have to dig around to find it. Why should someone have to try to find it via an external search engine, when neither the provided link, or the organizations own site search engine, will turn up the information.

Buddy, just take the L on this one and move on. Clearly you were wrong. Clearly the board does care about informing the membership.

You might not be on Facebook, and good for you. But you don't even need a Facebook account to see the post USPSA made about ousting Foley. Posting on Facebook is pretty much the opposite of trying to bury the information.

DMF13
08-27-2021, 11:54 PM
As for all the rule stuff, I'm just a guy who can't seem to find my way out of C class, with two hands and a flashlight, but as someone who is sort of new to the game (I've dabbled in it off and on for a few years, but only recently got serious about it), some of the rules are weird to me.

I understand the appeal of having the higher mag capacity, but it seems to me Open is to Limited, what CO is to Production. Yes, I understand the mag length is 30mm longer in Open, and there are some other differences between Open and Limited, but Open to me appears to be the optics "race" division, and Limited is the irons "race" division. However, CO appears to be the optics "practical gun" division, and Production is the irons "practical gun" division.

So, I find it odd, that there are little differences other than the optics. Why not have mag lengths be the same for Open and Limited, and the same length, or capacity, for CO and Production? Why not allow the Limited shooters to run compensators? Also, I find the whole Limited-10 Division to be extremely odd, considering the rules address what to do for all Divisions, in places that have mag capacity limits.

Granted, I've only recently gotten real serious about figuring this game out, so maybe I'll develop a better understanding as time goes by, and I'm sure the evolution of the game resulted in the things I find odd, but from a relatively new guy perspective how the rules are laid out now, with regard to what divisions there are, and the differences between them it just doesn't make sense.

Now, I am shooting Limited Minor because I don't have an optics gun, and I've got enough to worry about without making the stage plan more complicated with additional reloads. I will just live with Minor scoring. If I can ever dig myself out of C class, I will move to Production and start figuring out the slightly more complicated stage plans. If my agency ever approves optics, or when I retire, I'll probably go over to CO. If Production were 15 instead of 10, I'd probably just start there. Hell, last year before I bought 21 round mags for my Glock I was shooting Limited Minor with 15 round mags.

In the past I haven't paid close enough attention to the game to pin the things I find odd on any person, or group, so I'm not blaming Foley for it. It just seems to me some of these things are overly complicated.

Yankee
08-28-2021, 03:31 AM
The point is, if you're not trying to bury the information, don't make people, especially the people who are part of the organization, have to dig around to find it. Why should someone have to try to find it via an external search engine, when neither the provided link, or the organizations own site search engine, will turn up the information.

Click on the "Member Resources" dropdown and then click "BOD Minutes" in the left-hand column. All BOD minutes going back to 1984 are posted there, including the minutes from earlier this week.

Gio
10-05-2021, 03:23 PM
So, I find it odd, that there are little differences other than the optics. Why not have mag lengths be the same for Open and Limited, and the same length, or capacity, for CO and Production? Why not allow the Limited shooters to run compensators? Also, I find the whole Limited-10 Division to be extremely odd, considering the rules address what to do for all Divisions, in places that have mag capacity limits.


Divisions and rules are the way they are because of how the sport evolved over time for the most part. They look nothing like they would or should if you could do a hard reset and start from scratch building divisions today.

As a very rough/rudimentary time line, leaving off PCC and revolver:

-Sport starts with no divisions, major/minor scoring
-Optics and comps become a thing and a new division has to be made (open) to separate it from irons (limited)
-10 round AWB happens in 1994 and people want a division that is easier to compete in (limited 10)
-Double stack 9mm's grow in popularity and people want a place to compete shooting 9mm minor with common guns with a perceived disadvantage to guns with single action triggers, plus you had IDPA taking shooters from USPSA in part because of the use of common defensive guns (production, still AWB though so 10 round limit)
-People want to reminisce shooting 1911's which no longer have a place in the sport (single stack)
-RDS become more mainstream with concealed carry/defensive pistol/LEO/military use but a slide mounted RDS can't compete with a frame mounted, plus people like 9mm and minor and production was the most popular division at the time (carry optics, 10 round limit)
-At some point in the last 6 years, the DNROI, president, and board decide to make whole sale changes to divisions without making much sense, and went to the 140mm mag length limit for CO instead of the 10 round limit, gas pedals for production, aftermarket drop in triggers for production and CO, frame weights (flashlights), deleting weight limits, among other things.

If I were king for a day and could start over today, the divisions would probably look something like:
Optics Major (open) 140mm mag limit
Optics Minor (CO) 140mm mag limit
Irons Major 140mm mag limit
Irons Minor 140mm mag limit
LoCap - 10 round minor, 8 round major
Revo
PCC

dogcaller
05-09-2023, 11:06 PM
I realize I’m late to this party, but I’m new to USPSA and trying to get up to speed. My background is more tactical/practical type shooting, and I’ve shot IDPA and similar outlaw matches over the years. I’m entering USPSA with my eyes wide open and trying not to join and then start complaining. This thread brought up an issue I’ve been trying to avoid…. I shoot an LTT92 in CO and was surprised to see that literally every competitor has extended mags. Leaving the non-functional follower issue aside, the extendo mags do beg the question…. It’s called carryoptics but doesn’t really seem to have any pretense of actual carry, to say nothing of the offset holsters mag pouches. Why not just let us use Open-sized mags? What’s the difference? My personal preference would be a 15 or 17 round mag limit for CO. Not because I love reloading—I don’t, and I’m in no risk of winning any matches—but at least there would seem to be some internal logic in play. Putting the carry back in CO.

CleverNickname
05-09-2023, 11:48 PM
The simple answer is that Limited was already a 140mm mag length limit, so in 2017 when they upped CO from the 10-round limit that it started out as, the easiest thing to do was to adopt Limited's mag length. Now that LO is a thing, I really doubt the division will go away, so I think the best thing would be to keep LO at 140mm, raise Prod to 15 rounds, and lower CO to 15 rounds to help return it to the Production-with-an-optic division that it was originally meant to be.

Carrying mags with extensions isn't uncommon though. I carry a factory Glock 24-round magazine as a reload fairly often, and it's ~155mm.

JCN
05-10-2023, 05:08 AM
I realize I’m late to this party, but I’m new to USPSA and trying to get up to speed. My background is more tactical/practical type shooting, and I’ve shot IDPA and similar outlaw matches over the years. I’m entering USPSA with my eyes wide open and trying not to join and then start complaining. This thread brought up an issue I’ve been trying to avoid…. I shoot an LTT92 in CO and was surprised to see that literally every competitor has extended mags. Leaving the non-functional follower issue aside, the extendo mags do beg the question…. It’s called carryoptics but doesn’t really seem to have any pretense of actual carry, to say nothing of the offset holsters mag pouches. Why not just let us use Open-sized mags? What’s the difference? My personal preference would be a 15 or 17 round mag limit for CO. Not because I love reloading—I don’t, and I’m in no risk of winning any matches—but at least there would seem to be some internal logic in play. Putting the carry back in CO.

My advice: Don't try and logic the game. Enjoy it for what it is.

Get really good at shooting fast AND accurate and I guarantee it'll help your tactical and practical execution.

Thinking about division names is just a distraction.

From a gaming standpoint: I like 140mm mags because I like weighted basepads that can be easily seated and easily stripped and dropped.

Get some extended basepads and embrace the game. With max stage round count of 32 if you don't miss or make up... 15-17 round mags will give you an extra reload requirement per long stage.

When in Rome....

(also like CleverNickname when I carry a reload in real life it's an extended magazine because 40 cal capacity).

Mike Pipes
05-10-2023, 07:35 AM
What JNC said in his first line!!!!!!!!!

Jim Watson
05-10-2023, 09:33 AM
One gunfighting coach said of IPSC, you are not training to attack multiple determined opponents, consider each target array as a separate engagement, just combined to save time.

Glenn E. Meyer
05-10-2023, 09:45 AM
Great line, Jim! In any case, just move to a ban state and your 10 round mags will solve all those conundrums. Coming to your state soon. As I've indicated, given my abilities, I just want to get practice putting accurate rounds on each target in a reasonable time for that target as it is engaged. I shoot realistic carry guns with carry gear - but that's just me. The match is just practice and gun with the folk. So one guy is so used to his big ol' mag well that in our carry gun matches with a small semi, he consistently throws his reload into space as he 'missed' the funnel effect.

ECK
05-10-2023, 09:56 AM
Last winter USPSA put out a member survey to see how the membership felt about proposals to modify the magazine capacity for Production division. The options included:

1. Leave it alone at 10 rnds
2. Increase the capacity to 15 rnds
3. Allow whatever capacity the factory magazine holds (15, 17, 18, 19…)
4. Allow competitors to add an extended basepad to increase OEM capacity but pistol with mag inserted must still fit in the USPSA Prod/SS box

Per the bylaws, equipment changes to existing divisions can only take place once a year in January, and only after a member comment period. Since Production is an existing division, they have to follow the bylaws and the soonest any change to magazine capacity can take place would be January 2024. But first they would have to come up with a solid proposal, have the BOD agree, then put it out for a member comment period of 60 days (I think).

Carrying this forward, I suspect if the mag capacity in Production does come to pass there may be a subsequent movement to rollback Carry Optics from the 141.25mm magazine that is currently allowed to something shorter, such as #2, 3, or 4 above. IMO, by reducing the capacity of CO to something less than 23+1, we are creating more distinction between CO and Limited Optics. If you’re married to your 23+1 rnd magazines, stay in Limited Optics. If you want to keep shooting CO, dump the +5/6 mag extensions and run whatever is deemed the new magazine limit for CO.

Another thing that makes sense if they re-brand CO is to lower the weight limit back to 45 oz (what it was in 2019-ish) and leave the heavy guns to LO.

I know my Area Director is concerned with the lack of differentiation between CO and the new LO division, but I also suspect the BOD will want to wait at least a year, if not two, before making any major decisions about the future of LO and how it affects CO. But my $.02 is I’d be OK with a rollback of CO to something more similar to IPSC’s Production Optics (reduced mag capacity and weight than what we have now).

Jim Watson
05-10-2023, 01:48 PM
I have had all sorts of ideas how to rearrange the Divisions but have concluded that it doesn't matter. I am not in the "only compete against myself" fraternity, I do look at my standing relative to all other pistols, disregarding those shooting rifles at 5 yards. It is pretty low due to limits of age and only a moderate skill base, but I enjoy the challenge.


In any case, just move to a ban state and your 10 round mags will solve all those conundrums.

Since I am shooting mostly L10 and ESP, I am already solving problems with 10 round magazines.
Or six, I shot a revolver last week to keep another rare six gunner company.

Sal Picante
05-10-2023, 03:02 PM
I am not in the "only compete against myself" fraternity, I do look at my standing relative to all other pistols, disregarding those shooting rifles at 5 yards. It is pretty low due to limits of age and only a moderate skill base, but I enjoy the challenge.


This is the way. Also, I see what you said there about Pistol Caliber Cheater division.

Jim Watson
05-10-2023, 04:37 PM
Somebody found a quote from one of the early SWPCL shooters when they renamed it IPSC.
"We didn't call it the Pistol Shooting Confederation because we though somebody might want to shoot something else someday."

But I don't have to like it, it disturbs my Wa.

JCN
05-10-2023, 04:53 PM
This is the way. Also, I see what you said there about Pistol Caliber Cheater division.


Somebody found a quote from one of the early SWPCL shooters when they renamed it IPSC.
"We didn't call it the Pistol Shooting Confederation because we though somebody might want to shoot something else someday."

But I don't have to like it, it disturbs my Wa.

PCC is super dumb in USPSA and super duper uper dumb in IDPA.

But it remains the best dynamic long gun training standard out there.

Glenn E. Meyer
05-10-2023, 05:41 PM
Slightly disagree. In TX, we ran very well attended carbines in an IDPA format and the usual gun was an AR pattern. There were some Ruger PCC or 9 mm ARs. Had a guy who ran a Garand and one guy with a bolt gun quite well. The lever action guy was a flop. Some 22 LR AR pattern. Using 223s in a setups for carbines is better than a USPSA pistol set up with 9mm carbines. I do think they are fun to run. I've mentioned a guy who shot a fancy 9mm AR type with a dot and a green laser at our carry gun match - sight, that was a bit much.

Today my bad knee is murderous. So at the match, I will stroll between shooting positions. Don't need to pitch over. Whining, I am but that's what I do. Some of us older toots look more to the A count as total time ain't for us. Of course, you don't want to shoot it in bullseye mode.

Jim Watson
05-10-2023, 06:16 PM
I've mentioned a guy who shot a fancy 9mm AR type with a dot and a green laser at our carry gun match -


Hey! He shoots here, too; $3500 JP roller action.

Zincwarrior
05-11-2023, 07:57 AM
Slightly disagree. In TX, we ran very well attended carbines in an IDPA format and the usual gun was an AR pattern. There were some Ruger PCC or 9 mm ARs. Had a guy who ran a Garand and one guy with a bolt gun quite well. The lever action guy was a flop. Some 22 LR AR pattern. Using 223s in a setups for carbines is better than a USPSA pistol set up with 9mm carbines. I do think they are fun to run. I've mentioned a guy who shot a fancy 9mm AR type with a dot and a green laser at our carry gun match - sight, that was a bit much.

Today my bad knee is murderous. So at the match, I will stroll between shooting positions. Don't need to pitch over. Whining, I am but that's what I do. Some of us older toots look more to the A count as total time ain't for us. Of course, you don't want to shoot it in bullseye mode.

Was that Texas Tactical? I ran a squad once where a guy brought an FN with aftermarket furniture. I swear it rosewood or something. It was just beautiful. And fun to watch him go through it.

Glenn E. Meyer
05-11-2023, 08:07 AM
Yeah, I shot at TX Tactical's San Antonio /Cedar Ridge matches. Don't remember that guy. There was a guy who for a little bit of time, shot an FN P90. But it was usually ARs. I was going to shoot my new Mini-14 but didn't get around to it before we moved. There aren't such carbine matches around here. Some 3 gun and a one stage rifle match, once in awhile. Life's been two complicated to chase those down.

Read an article that the PCC rules about bringing the gun to the firing lines slows down the matches. Mike had rifle racks for each stage, so none of that bagging slow down. We'd rack up when the squad got there.

My best match - three points down for 5 stages. Kind of like my best bowling score ever. Olympic Arms with an Eotech that I bought in TX, AWB compliant after the law passed. It held together till 2019 when it started have parts breaking. Sold it.

JCN
05-11-2023, 08:25 AM
Read an article that the PCC rules about bringing the gun to the firing lines slows down the matches. Mike had rifle racks for each stage, so none of that bagging slow down. We'd rack up when the squad got there.

As an aside, current best PCC practice allows us unbagging at the berm and vertical muzzle and flag as holster equivalent.

So most of us will either put the PCC on the safe table a few shooters ahead of time or unbag and hold vertical when we are on deck.

Zincwarrior
05-11-2023, 12:01 PM
As an aside, current best PCC practice allows us unbagging at the berm and vertical muzzle and flag as holster equivalent.

So most of us will either put the PCC on the safe table a few shooters ahead of time or unbag and hold vertical when we are on deck.

Yes they seem pretty normal speed now.