NYPD going to lighter trigger?

[Tokarev]

https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/ny-nypd-trigger-pull-change-20210825-s4wbvq5rwjcwlacm5i5eyarvha-story.html?outputType=amp&__twitter_impression=true



Best piece of the story: The move, which one civil rights lawyer said “doesn’t make sense” and could lead to more police killings, means that new cops will need to apply less pressure to the trigger.


John Farnam's take:


A New Epiphany!

25 Aug 21

The nation’s largest police department, NYPD, has had yet another epiphany!

Since using G19s (for the most part) since the 1990s, all equipped with department-mandated “NY Triggers,” which boosted trigger pull-weight to a nominal twelve pounds, the department has now decided to reduce trigger pull-weight back to five/six pounds, which is the way most Glocks come from the factory!

The first class of recruits to have been trained with the new system will graduate next month.

The issue is, of course, balancing practical accuracy with the likelihood of UDs.

UDs are an embarrassing issue with police departments, usually a bigger issue than is poor accuracy!

Back in the revolver days, virtually every police UD resulted from the officer manually cocking his pistol. So long as officers fired exclusively via the “trigger-cocking mode,” UDs were rare with revolvers.

In fact, for a time NYPD issued “uncockable revolvers” in an effort to deal with the UD issue. There was no full-cock notch on the hammer, and the hammer itself did not have a spur, so it could not be manually cocked.

Accuracy was unaffected, but UDs did go down significantly!

Yet, accuracy was still far from acceptable!

Bullets fired by police officers at dangerous felons actually impact somewhere on the felon himself less than half the time. Other (errant) bullets go on to hit other things, sometimes other people!

Some PDs boast better accuracy, but police bullets that fail to impact where intended continue to greatly worry police chiefs, mayors, and especially the public!

NYPD insists, correctly, that poor accuracy:

1) Generates errant police bullets that endanger innocent people and property

2) Results in additional shots being fired by police, which are unnecessary when the first shot(s) fired hit the intended target, and have the intended effect.

3) Results in dangerous felon(s) not being stopped immediately, but continuing to endanger officers and innocent bystanders.

Going from a twelve-pound to a five-pound trigger will, without fail, boost accuracy significantly. This is already being clearly demonstrated by superior qualification scores.

The question is:

Will this change also lead to a significant increase in UDs?

We won’t know that for at least several years.

We do know that accuracy and “safety” are mutually antagonistic.

Ultra-light triggers do generate UDs, particularly in the hands of officers in departments with inadequate training budgets.

Yet, ultra-heavy triggers are not compatible with any species of practical accuracy, with all the unhappy consequences noted above.

Is five pounds about right?

We’ll probably never know, and the argument will go on forever. In the interim, police chiefs need to make decisions!

Of course, there is the usual gaggle of smug ignoramuses who say that accuracy and precision are inherently bad, because they increase officer efficiency and “deadliness.”

No point in arguing with these clowns, but they do get their folderol printed!

“There will always be statements that are absolutely true, but that defy rigorous proof. That is, we suspect they’re true, but we can never be absolutely sure. In fact, the foregoing applies to everything we think we know!

Thus doubt is, and should be, endemic to all human reasoning. We can ‘know the truth,’ but we can never know that what we ‘know’ is the truth. We have to confront the fact that no matter how ‘sure’ we are of anything, we might be completely wrong!

Mathematics is no refuge! Our naive hope for certainty is dashed as we discover that even mathematics is neither complete, nor consistent.

There is a curtain beyond which we cannot see, and that cannot be lifted, neither by our philosophy, nor our science, nor our religion!”

Math axiom

/John




Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

[JBP55]

It should lead to a better Glock and improved P O S T scores and should reduce misses when shooting at bad guys.

[call_me_ski]

About time.

[Archer1440]

As many of you know, nine years ago, two NYPD officers neutralized a shooter on a street outside the Empire State Building on a busy Friday morning.

Reports say they fired sixteen rounds from “less than 10 feet”. One officer expended seven rounds and the other expended nine rounds.

Reports after the fact said that 7 of the 16 rounds struck the perpetrator. Nine rounds did not.

Three rounds directly hit innocent bystanders. It is unclear if any of those rounds passed through the perpetrator, or struck the bystanders directly.

Six more bystanders were injured by either rounds or round fragments that deflected off hard objects, or spall from hard objects hit by stray rounds.

One may speculate as to whether the bad guy vs innocent person score would have been quite different if the trigger weight were to normal Glock specification, rather than 12 pounds, but I submit that the outcome might have well been similar with, say, five pound triggers -if those officers didn’t get sight pictures or a proper index.

Training matters.

[stinx]

Finally someone gets it. the length of trigger travel is more important then the weight when it comes to preventing accidental discharges. If people keep their booger hooks off the bang switch this stuff would not happen. The average person in a startle reflex can easily put 20 or more pounds of pressure . A 12 pound trigger won't stop this. Keeping your finger off the trigger and proper muzzle management will. Rant over.

[Joe Mac]

My perspective as a firearms instructor on a large PD for more than two decades: very few of our NDs involved finger on the trigger when it shouldn't be/pull weight/etc. Our folks were well trained and good at indexing. The great majority of the NDs were intentional trigger presses when "dry" firing (or so they thought), or when incompetency met the Glock takedown procedure (mostly quite early in the Glock years, in the 90s).

I had the misfortune of being in close personal proximity to four NDs over the years, and have a bit of hearing loss to show for it.

[jlw]

My perspective as a firearms instructor on a large PD for more than two decades: very few of our NDs involved finger on the trigger when it shouldn't be/pull weight/etc. Our folks were well trained and good at indexing. The great majority of the NDs were intentional trigger presses when "dry" firing (or so they thought), or when incompetency met the Glock takedown procedure (mostly quite early in the Glock years, in the 90s).

I had the misfortune of being in close personal proximity to four NDs over the years, and have a bit of hearing loss to show for it.

The Los Angeles County Sheriff's Office had a much different finding. Almost all of their NDs involved fingers on triggers.

[jlw]

Okay folks...

They are issuing them to new recruit classes. Current officers are stuck with the same pistols they have been carrying.

It's not a bunch of officers who have been running NY triggers that will now have standard triggers.

The neighboring agency to me (roughly 250 sworn) went from NY triggers to standard triggers with no issues.

[Glock1911]

My perspective as a firearms instructor on a large PD for more than two decades: very few of our NDs involved finger on the trigger when it shouldn't be/pull weight/etc. Our folks were well trained and good at indexing. The great majority of the NDs were intentional trigger presses when "dry" firing (or so they thought), or when incompetency met the Glock takedown procedure (mostly quite early in the Glock years, in the 90s).

I had the misfortune of being in close personal proximity to four NDs over the years, and have a bit of hearing loss to show for it.

I too have been close to officers when ND occurred with NY trigger. Once in the locker room another on a B&E of auto and chase. Not a pleasant experience nor accompanying paperwork as an instructor. They weren’t in my training unit but were for remedial training.

[blues]

Okay folks...

They are issuing them to new recruit classes. Current officers are stuck with the same pistols they have been carrying.

It's not a bunch of officers who have been running NY triggers that will now have standard triggers.

The neighboring agency to me (roughly 250 sworn) went from NY triggers to standard triggers with no issues.



I personally never found it gave me any issues going back to the standard trigger. I once preferred the NY trigger. Now I prefer the standard.


(I can't swear that my original preference was based upon carrying revolvers for the first six years or so of my career, but it may enter into it.)

[TC215]

The Los Angeles County Sheriff's Office had a much different finding. Almost all of their NDs involved fingers on triggers.

Because they were trained to be “on target, on trigger” until the early 2000’s, with a bunch of the old heads not complying with updated training and keeping their fingers on the triggers anyway.


The report’s authors concluded “that the practice of ‘riding the trigger’ has resulted in an increase in unintentional discharges.”

[Tokarev]

Manual safety and proper use thereof coupled with some trigger finger discipline is probably a much better solution than a ridiculously heavy trigger.

In a high stress environment and/or similar where a cop is startled, stumbles, etc and clenches his fists will he not easily exert 10+ pounds of force? It isn't all that much effort in the big picture.

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[Lost River]

Finally someone gets it. the length of trigger travel is more important then the weight when it comes to preventing accidental discharges. If people keep their booger hooks off the bang switch this stuff would not happen. The average person in a startle reflex can easily put 20 or more pounds of pressure . A 12 pound trigger won't stop this. Keeping your finger off the trigger and proper muzzle management will. Rant over.


It is virtually impossible to say the part in bold without sounding like you are one of the basement dwelling 23 year olds over on arfcom.

[TheNewbie]

Manual safety and proper use thereof coupled with some trigger finger discipline is probably a much better solution than a ridiculously heavy trigger.

In a high stress environment and/or similar where a cop is startled, stumbles, etc and clenches his fists will he not easily exert 10+ pounds of force? It isn't all that much effort in the big picture.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


Agree totally. If Glock would make a quality TS, I would be Glock all day everyday.


The thing I liked about the NY1 is it did give more take up, and more importantly made the SCD even more effective.


Maybe Mas has some thoughts on this topic.

[Hot Sauce]

Okay folks...

They are issuing them to new recruit classes. Current officers are stuck with the same pistols they have been carrying.

It's not a bunch of officers who have been running NY triggers that will now have standard triggers.

The neighboring agency to me (roughly 250 sworn) went from NY triggers to standard triggers with no issues.


There is a tidbit in there that suggests this is being used a test period to potential lead into re-training of people who are already on the job.



Accuracy tests showed that 129 officers already working the streets also scored better with the lighter pull.

What would be the point of testing already serving officers' performance on 5lb triggers unless they're eyeing the potential of a greater transition?

[Ed L]

Okay folks...

The neighboring agency to me (roughly 250 sworn) went from NY triggers to standard triggers with no issues.


I personally never found it gave me any issues going back to the standard trigger. I once preferred the NY trigger. Now I prefer the standard.

(I can't swear that my original preference was based upon carrying revolvers for the first six years or so of my career, but it may enter into it.)

Are you guys talking about the NY1 Glock trigger, which was developed for either the NY State Police or Suffolk County PD (I cannot remember which one) which brings the trigger pull to about 8 lbs, or the NY2 Trigger, which is specifically made for the NYPD which brings it up to about 12+ lbs?

I know some people who like the 8lb NY1 trigger better than the standard Glock 5.5 lb trigger because *to them* it feels more revolverlike. I tried the trigger and immediately had it changed back to the standard Glock Trigger. There is also some combo of using a spring from the 8lb Ny1 trigger with the standard Glock trigger that makes it more revolverlike that some people use (I don't know the specifics).

I have fired a Glock with the 12+ lb NYC NY2 trigger. When I first picked it up I thought the trigger was broken. I much preferred the Sig P226 with a DA only trigger--which at one point was one of the approved list of NYPD handguns. I found the DA only Sig to be more comfortable to manipulate and easier to fire accurately than the Glock with the NYPD NY2 trigger. I am not a fan of the DA only auto trigger, but I would definitely prefer it over the Glock NY2 trigger. I'd rather have a standard Glock trigger over either of those.

Another factor with the DA only sig trigger is that there is more movement than in a Glock trigger. So if someone does have their trigger on the trigger when they are not supposed to and starts moving it, there is more time to realize what they are doing and stop. I believe several experienced and knowledgeable people have pointed this out on this forum.

[HCM]

Are you guys talking about the NY1 Glock trigger, which was developed for either the NY State Police or Suffolk County PD (I cannot remember which one) which brings the trigger pull to about 8 lbs, or the NY2 Trigger, which is specifically made for the NYPD which brings it up to about 12+ lbs?

I know some people who like the 8lb NY1 trigger better than the standard Glock 5.5 lb trigger because *to them* it feels more revolverlike. I tried the trigger and immediately had it changed back to the standard Glock Trigger. There is also some combo of using a spring from the 8lb Ny1 trigger with the standard Glock trigger that makes it more revolverlike that some people use (I don't know the specifics).

I have fired a Glock with the 12+ lb NYC NY2 trigger. When I first picked it up I thought the trigger was broken. I much preferred the Sig P226 with a DA only trigger--which at one point was one of the approved list of NYPD handguns. I found the DA only Sig to be more comfortable to manipulate and easier to fire accurately than the Glock with the NYPD NY2 trigger. I am not a fan of the DA only auto trigger, but I would definitely prefer it over the Glock NY2 trigger. I'd rather have a standard Glock trigger over either of those.

Another factor with the DA only sig trigger is that there is more movement than in a Glock trigger. So if someone does have their trigger on the trigger when they are not supposed to and starts moving it, there is more time to realize what they are doing and stop. I believe several experienced and knowledgeable people have pointed this out on this forum.

The P226 DAO is still an authorized NYPD duty gun, The current choices being G19, G17 and P226 DAO. The G17 replaced the S&W 5946 when Smith finally discontinued them completely, though NYPD requires their g17's be used with 15 round mags to match the capacity of the other two duty guns. While I would like to sarcastically say "because/ uniformity," when you have to qualify 1,000 cops per week to ensure all 40,000 cops qualify twice a year details matter.

At one point the NY-1 spring combined with a minus connector was a popular combo to get a "rolling break," however, it only works in gen 1-3 guns. Due to changes in the internal geometry the combo did not produce good results in the Gen 4 guns. Is there a NY-2 for the Gen 5 ?

Speaking of generational differences, I wonder how much of the change from NY-2 to standard Glock triggers is driven by the stated desires for improved performance and how much is driven by:

A) Issues with the NY-2 in gen 5 Glocks now that gen 4's are being discontinued;
B) and/or the inability of Glock to make a NY-2 trigger for the G43, 43X, 48 ?

[blues]

Ed L

It would have had to have been the NY1 in my case as I can only recall the armorer installing them in my issued and personal Glocks I carried on duty sometime in the 90's. I don't recall ever having them replace the trigger components subsequently...and I think I'd have noticed something approximating the heavier pull of a revolver trigger.

[TheNewbie]

The P226 DAO is still an authorized NYPD duty gun, The current choices being G19, G17 and P226 DAO. The G17 replaced the S&W 5946 when Smith finally discontinued them completely, though NYPD requires their g17's be used with 15 round mags to match the capacity of the other two duty guns. While I would like to sarcastically say "because/ uniformity," when you have to qualify 1,000 cops per week to ensure all 40,000 cops qualify twice a year details matter.

At one point the NY-1 spring combined with a minus connector was a popular combo to get a "rolling break," however, it only works in gen 1-3 guns. Due to changes in the internal geometry the combo did not produce good results in the Gen 4 guns. Is there a NY-2 for the Gen 5 ?

Speaking of generational differences, I wonder how much of the change from NY-2 to standard Glock triggers is driven by the stated desires for improved performance and how much is driven by:

A) Issues with the NY-2 in gen 5 Glocks now that gen 4's are being discontinued;
B) and/or the inability of Glock to make a NY-2 trigger for the G43, 43X, 48 ?


There is an NY1 for Gen5s, but no NY 2 to my knowledge.

There is an orange NY trigger for the slimline series.

[HCM]

There is an NY1 for Gen5s, but no NY 2 to my knowledge.

There is an orange NY trigger for the slimline series.

I know a NY trigger that worked was a sticking point on their approval of the G43 for many years.

[Joe Mac]

Another factor with the DA only sig trigger is that there is more movement than in a Glock trigger. So if someone does have their trigger on the trigger when they are not supposed to and starts moving it, there is more time to realize what they are doing and stop. I believe several experienced and knowledgeable people have pointed this out on this forum.

Gratuitous war story:
One day in 1994 we were trying to take a suspect into custody who had attempted to kill an FBI agent. We called him out of the shed he'd been hiding in, and he began walking toward us, appearing to comply. He suddenly plunged his hands into his pants, and from about 30 yards out I began to pull the trigger of my L-frame revolver -- slowly and smoothly, because I didn't want to miss. Before the hammer fell, it was no longer the bad guy in my sight picture, but my squad mate tackling him! (He was doing some stealthy hero shit, unbeknownst to the rest of us...) I was able to abort that shot because it was a long DA trigger.

There are many reasons I prefer a modern striker-fired pistol, but there are some circumstances when a DA trigger is an advantage.

[BehindBlueI's]

We went from the NY1 (8-lb) trigger to standard trigger when we went from Gen 2 to Gen 3 Glocks. No rise in UDs. I believe all of our UDs have been either intentionally pulling the trigger after improper clearing or equipment in the trigger guard of a holstered/being holstered handgun.

[deputyG23]

My perspective as a firearms instructor on a large PD for more than two decades: very few of our NDs involved finger on the trigger when it shouldn't be/pull weight/etc. Our folks were well trained and good at indexing. The great majority of the NDs were intentional trigger presses when "dry" firing (or so they thought), or when incompetency met the Glock takedown procedure (mostly quite early in the Glock years, in the 90s).

I had the misfortune of being in close personal proximity to four NDs over the years, and have a bit of hearing loss to show for it.

Our 375-ish member office has had about ten NDs since adopting Glocks in the late '80s.
Nearly all involved using faulty technique to clear the pistol before cleaning and/or storing.
One resulted in a career ending injury to the victim's leg.
Nearly all of our issued Glocks over the years have had a heavier trigger than the standard one.
Most were ordered with the eight pound connector and standard spring.
The last batches of Gen 4 G23s we ordered came with the standard connector and spring.
We still have around 200 Gen 3 models in service with eight pound triggers.
The G5 G17s we are switching to, hopefully next year, will have the standard trigger.

[Rex G]

I would make an educated guess that some number of NYPD’s numerous misses, with heavy-trigger Glocks, may well have been due to the heavy trigger. I do well enough with heavy triggers, but understand that many folks do not. (I installed an NY2 in one of my Gen3 G22 Glocks, experimentally, and it made no difference in my scored accuracy potential, during the duty qual course, but, my overall Glock accuracy was not so wonderful, anyway, compared to DA revolvers and 1911 pistols, which prompted my switch to SIG DAK, as soon as it became available, in 2004. My G22 groups were well-centered, but just too large*.)

I believe that some number of NYPD’s NDs, with Glocks, would not have occurred, with longer-stroke triggers. I will concede that I am not unbiased, as I am a belivier in long-stroke double-action triggers, whether the weapon is a DA/SA auto-pistol, a DAO auto-pistol, or a DA revolving pistol.

I do not favor SIG DAK. It is wonderful, for a few shots, but quickly becomes fatiguing and/or distracting. I loved DAK, as soon as I got to try it. Notably, my PD did not authorize DAO SIGs, but policy was silent on DAK, and many of the heavy-hittin’ narc raid team immediately embraced DAK. When I adopted DAK, as soon as I could find one at an LGS, I had to avoid being at the qual range when a particular evening shift sergeant was present, as he was on a personal campaign against DAK. Our qual range runs three shifts, so avoiding that sergeant was not too difficult. (The narcs did not have to worry about him, as Narcotics Division ran their own quals, with their own supervisors.) Eventually, firearms policy was amended to specifically allow both DA/SA and DAK.

If I were an NYPD officer, rather than a Houston PD officer, I believe that I would have embraced the S&W 5946, during its time, if not staying with the revolver. I base this upon my experience with a much-loved 3953, which only went away, because I wanted a dear friend to have a good pistol, and she shot it better than anything I saw her try, that was small enough for her to carry.

*Gen4 partially solved my group size problem, with Glocks. It was a matter of fit. Even so, I will probably never shoot any Glock as well as a GP100, or a K-/L-Frame S&W. Every shot fired with a Glock seems to help my revolver shooting, so Glocks cannot catch-up.

[Trooper224]

I'm glad the NYPDs finally seeing the light on their Glock triggers. Unfortunately, while that may be of some benefit, I doubt if it will have any dramatic effect on their hit/miss ratio. They have much bigger issues with training and the overall lack of any kind of gun culture within NYC itself. Changing the issue trigger is a pretty small slice of the pie.

[Rex G]

I do not favor SIG DAK. It is wonderful, for a few shots, but quickly becomes fatiguing and/or distracting. I loved DAK, as soon as I got to try it. Notably, my PD did not authorize DAO SIGs, but policy was silent on DAK, and many of the heavy-hittin’ narc raid team immediately embraced DAK.


Obviously, I contradicted myself, in the above quote. The first sentence of the above quote should have been “I do not favor SIG DAO.” The rest of it is correct, as I truly loved SIG DAK. I only got away from SIG DAK, because I wanted the lowest possible bore axis, when I switched to 9mm, shortly after my then-chief authorized 9mm as an alternative primary duty pistol cartridge, in 2015. My choice was the Gen4 Glock G17, for orthopedic purposes, to spare my aging right wrist further damage. Otherwise, I probably would have finished my career with SIG DAK. As it was, my P229R DAK was my longest-serving single duty pistol, at 11 years.

Notably, I let the DAK trigger reset all the way forward, for the longer-but-lighter trigger stroke, which mimicked a K-/L-Frame trigger stroke quite well. I had to let my revolvers reset all the way forward, so there was no point in training with the shorter DAK reset position, and plenty of wisdom in NOT doing so. The shorter reset remained a fail-safe, in case I failed to reset to the farther forward position.

Until I transitioned to the G17, I did most of my right-hand DAK/DA training with an S&W K-Frame Model 17-4, with .22 LR ammo. For the annual qual, I used a Surefire X200 or X300, on the rail, so its weight would damp some of the recoil.

I may yet convert my P229R DAK to 9mm, but complete uppers are quite costly, so it has not yet been worth the price.

[HCM]

Obviously, I contradicted myself, in the above quote. The first sentence of the above quote should have been “I do not favor SIG DAO.” The rest of it is correct, as I truly loved SIG DAK. I only got away from SIG DAK, because I wanted the lowest possible bore axis, when I switched to 9mm, shortly after my then-chief authorized 9mm as an alternative primary duty pistol cartridge, in 2015. My choice was the Gen4 Glock G17, for orthopedic purposes, to spare my aging right wrist further damage. Otherwise, I probably would have finished my career with SIG DAK. As it was, my P229R DAK was my longest-serving single duty pistol, at 11 years.

Notably, I let the DAK trigger reset all the way forward, for the longer-but-lighter trigger stroke, which mimicked a K-/L-Frame trigger stroke quite well. I had to let my revolvers reset all the way forward, so there was no point in training with the shorter DAK reset position, and plenty of wisdom in NOT doing so. The shorter reset remained a fail-safe, in case I failed to reset to the farther forward position.

Until I transitioned to the G17, I did most of my right-hand DAK/DA training with an S&W K-Frame Model 17-4, with .22 LR ammo. For the annual qual, I used a Surefire X200 or X300, on the rail, so its weight would damp some of the recoil.

I may yet convert my P229R DAK to 9mm, but complete uppers are quite costly, so it has not yet been worth the price.

I’ve had no issues running my .40 cal 229 with a barsto 9mm conversion barrel and 40 cal mags.

If it’s for serious use. SIG and RTG parts have 9mm 229 slides with factory mounted red dot optics for not much more than the standard 229 caliber conversions.

[deputyG23]

Obviously, I contradicted myself, in the above quote. The first sentence of the above quote should have been “I do not favor SIG DAO.” The rest of it is correct, as I truly loved SIG DAK. I only got away from SIG DAK, because I wanted the lowest possible bore axis, when I switched to 9mm, shortly after my then-chief authorized 9mm as an alternative primary duty pistol cartridge, in 2015. My choice was the Gen4 Glock G17, for orthopedic purposes, to spare my aging right wrist further damage. Otherwise, I probably would have finished my career with SIG DAK. As it was, my P229R DAK was my longest-serving single duty pistol, at 11 years.

Notably, I let the DAK trigger reset all the way forward, for the longer-but-lighter trigger stroke, which mimicked a K-/L-Frame trigger stroke quite well. I had to let my revolvers reset all the way forward, so there was no point in training with the shorter DAK reset position, and plenty of wisdom in NOT doing so. The shorter reset remained a fail-safe, in case I failed to reset to the farther forward position.

Until I transitioned to the G17, I did most of my right-hand DAK/DA training with an S&W K-Frame Model 17-4, with .22 LR ammo. For the annual qual, I used a Surefire X200 or X300, on the rail, so its weight would damp some of the recoil.

I may yet convert my P229R DAK to 9mm, but complete uppers are quite costly, so it has not yet been worth the price.

I have wanted to try a 229 DAK for years. Almost pulled the trigger on a $379 reconditioned one that CDNN had, pre-pandemic.
The local cop shop usually have a couple of trade ins in their case but now at $500-ish and they look pretty tired and have Hogue rubber grips, which I hate.
I am not a SIG armorer, so I have not bit yet.
I have a .357 P229 barrel, a Safariland holster, and a pair of magazines that came in my big estate sale buy of 2019.

[Rex G]

Notably, the only ND I heard, by a fellow officer, off the range, was a rookie who ND-ed into the lowest step, or a short stairway onto an elevated porch. I was on the porch, so it was a bit startling, but her muzzle direction, with her G22, was good, so I was good. Notably, because I had just pushed open an unlocked door, and announced our presence, a bit of body alarm reaction had already kicked-in, which preserved my hearing. The calm, matter-of-fact way that she ‘fessed-up to having “discharged my firearm,” and her finger being PROPERLY indexed, after that shot, plus her breathing being under control, led me to indicate that we should take care of business, rather than back-off, as it would be a considerable wait for other officers to arrive. I knew that this was probably her first experience making a dynamic entry, and that she had been performing well, up to this point in time; a “sharp” rookie.

As soon as practicable, I did, of course, get on the air, to let her partner know that we were OK. This was before we made entry.

Yes, I know, it would have been best practice to call a time-out, but this was a burglary-in-progress call, with the complainant having heard a noise, moving across her floor, after her alarm had tripped. I was checking-by with the only available unit in that district. I had to consider how long the complainant might be at the mercy of an intruder. The rookie’s partner was monitoring the front door and windows, and if I told them to switch places, the rookie would have been alone, out front. I reckoned that it would be better to keep the rookie with me.

Yes, I earned some “cool under fire” bonus points, which are, of course, totally unofficial, only existing in the minds of colleagues.

Yes, of course, some disciplinary occurred. My official letter did specifically mention her safe muzzle direction, and calmness and safe weapon handing after the shot was fired.

Yes, of course, I would rather that she had been using a weapon with a longer-stroke trigger.

Life is good.

Oh, the object that had been heard moving across the floor, was a cylindrical object that had tipped over, and then rolled across the floor. The unsecured back door had been coincidental

[HCM]

I have wanted to try a 229 DAK for years. Almost pulled the trigger on a $379 reconditioned one that CDNN had, pre-pandemic.
The local cop shop usually have a couple of trade ins in their case but now at $500-ish and they look pretty tired and have Hogue rubber grips, which I hate.
I am not a SIG armorer, so I have not bit yet.
I have a .357 P229 barrel, a Safariland holster, and a pair of magazines that came in my big estate sale buy of 2019.

To quote the late P-F member LSP972, "The DAK sucks all the fun out of shooting a SIG."

[Rex G]

As the night shift “camera unit,” for my patrol division, I had occasion to document scenes of UDs/NDs, in our two patrol districts. Other than the above-mentioned scene, I was dispatched to an officer’s apartment/loft unit, where a mattress had been Glock’ed. It was not my role to interview the officer, so I know little else about what happened, and do not know that his trigger set-up was.

[Rex G]

I’ve had no issues running my .40 cal 229 with a barsto 9mm conversion barrel and 40 cal mags.

If it’s for serious use. SIG and RTG parts have 9mm 229 slides with factory mounted red dot optics for not much more than the standard 229 caliber conversions.

Good to know. Thanks!

I actually have a Bar-Sto .40-to-9mm conversion barrel, but it became misplaced, and may have been thrown-out, in error, after Hurricane Harvey soaked some of my boxed-up stuff, that was at floor level. I never got around to vetting that Bar-Sto barrel. Maybe I will find it, eventually, in some silly place.

Edited to add: I can still shoot .40 with my healthier left hand, and may well start regularly carrying the bigger pistol lefty, so, my ol’ reliable P229R DAK may return to being a carry gun. I am functionally ambidextrous with most pistols, actually being left-handed, but right-armed. (Write lefty, throw righty.) I chose to carry at 0300, in 1983, for practical/tactical reasons.

[TCinVA]

The 457 recruits who were tested, most of whom never fired a weapon before, had an average score of 93.7 with the lesser pull and 88.7 with the 12-pound pull, police said.

A whopping 5% increase in accuracy...

(Presuming, of course, the quoted scores are a percentage and not raw points score)

[deputyG23]

To quote the late P-F member LSP972, "The DAK sucks all the fun out of shooting a SIG."

I do remember his statement. At today's prices, it isn't going to happen. Furthermore, I gave my son my P228 because I kept bumping the slide release while shooting and he shot it better than I did.
I don't have either problem with my P250. That one is a keeper.

[HCM]

Our 375-ish member office has had about ten NDs since adopting Glocks in the late '80s.
Nearly all involved using faulty technique to clear the pistol before cleaning and/or storing.


While "faulty technique" may be literally correct, IME the underlying cause of these issues is not understanding the cycle of weapon's cycle of operation.

Those who understand why reversing the steps of the clearance process is bad are less likely to have issues vs those who merely clear by rote.

We've also found issuing lock boxes and encouraging securely storing loaded guns, thereby minimizing "administrative handling" vs unloading reduces NDs.

[Trooper224]

To quote the late P-F member LSP972, "The DAK sucks all the fun out of shooting a SIG."

I'd have to agree with that.

[deputyG23]

While "faulty technique" may be literally correct, IME the underlying cause of these issues is not understanding the cycle of weapon's cycle of operation.

Those who understand why reversing the steps of the clearance process is bad are less likely to have issues vs those who merely clear by rote.

We've also found issuing lock boxes and encouraging securely storing loaded guns, thereby minimizing "administrative handling" vs unloading reduces NDs.

Your last sentence is spot on. Our policy requires unloading before storage at home, which I, and others, have tried to get changed for years. My issue Glock is seldom locked up because I have it under my direct control nearly always. When it goes under lock and key, it is loaded and in a holster that covers the trigger guard.
The recent Glock carrying case lends itself well to being safeguarded from casual tampering by using the issued handcuffs to secure the case and affixing the other cuff to something like a closet rod. That is what I recommend to those who have no other storage options.

[Rex G]

“Unloading before storage at home.” Deep sigh. Slowly shake head.

[Trooper224]

“Unloading before storage at home.” Deep sigh. Slowly shake head.

The military and apparently a lot of LE agencies never received the memo from the good idea fairy stating less administrative futzing is a good idea.

[Joe Mac]

Our 375-ish member office has had about ten NDs since adopting Glocks in the late '80s.
Nearly all involved using faulty technique to clear the pistol before cleaning and/or storing.
One resulted in a career ending injury to the victim's leg.
Nearly all of our issued Glocks over the years have had a heavier trigger than the standard one.
Most were ordered with the eight pound connector and standard spring.
The last batches of Gen 4 G23s we ordered came with the standard connector and spring.
We still have around 200 Gen 3 models in service with eight pound triggers.
The G5 G17s we are switching to, hopefully next year, will have the standard trigger.

Yep, we stuck with the 8 until we started rolling the gen 4s out, leaving the standard 5.5 and transitioning folks during annual firearms training. Some who still had gen 3s got their connectors swapped at the start of the training day.

[jlw]

A whopping 5% increase in accuracy...

(Presuming, of course, the quoted scores are a percentage and not raw points score)


Speaking of, what is the NYPD qual course?

[1Rangemaster]

Speaking of, what is the NYPD qual course?

You may weep; the NY State Department of Criminal Justice has a 50 round qual course from 3 yards to 25 yards, with VERY generous time limits- like 8 rounds in 40 seconds at 25 yards(a reload is mandated).
It has been a number of years since I spoke with any member of service there, but I recall NYPD at that time had dropped the 25 yard portion…
Supposedly it was “not relevant in a city environment “.
That may have changed. I do know NYPD special units(ESU,etc.) shoot more, but I don’t know their specific quals.

[HCM]

Your last sentence is spot on. Our policy requires unloading before storage at home, which I, and others, have tried to get changed for years. My issue Glock is seldom locked up because I have it under my direct control nearly always. When it goes under lock and key, it is loaded and in a holster that covers the trigger guard.
The recent Glock carrying case lends itself well to being safeguarded from casual tampering by using the issued handcuffs to secure the case and affixing the other cuff to something like a closet rod. That is what I recommend to those who have no other storage options.

Not to mention the issues with rechambering duty rounds on a daily basis.

[jlw]

You may weep; the NY State Department of Criminal Justice has a 50 round qual course from 3 yards to 25 yards, with VERY generous time limits- like 8 rounds in 40 seconds at 25 yards(a reload is mandated).
It has been a number of years since I spoke with any member of service there, but I recall NYPD at that time had dropped the 25 yard portion…
Supposedly it was “not relevant in a city environment “.
That may have changed. I do know NYPD special units(ESU,etc.) shoot more, but I don’t know their specific quals.

I've seen the NYCJ course. Is it what the NYPD shoots?

[OneZero]

About time.


No doubt longer over due!

[1Rangemaster]

Unknown at the moment. I will reach out and try to get the specific CoF and report back.

blues may have some insight.

[blues]

Unknown at the moment. I will reach out and try to get the specific CoF and report back.

blues may have some insight.

I left NYC in 1987. We qualified quarterly at the NYPD range at Rodman's Neck, but our range was run by our own people.

(Our quals were from 3 yards out to 25 yards...60 round course as I recall. PPC or modified PPC if I remember correctly.)

[1Rangemaster]

Thank you sir. I will see what I can find out about present day practices.

[HCM]

Keep in mind:

NYC and to an extent NYPD are the antithesis of a “gun culture.”

As previously noted 40k cops qualifying 2x per year means 1,000 quals per weekly understanding is one “day” qual at the outdoor range in Rodman’s Neck and one “low light” qual at the indoor range in Brooklyn.

NYPD recruits only receive 15 days of “firearms” training while in the academy, including instruction on tactics, the use of tasers and pepper spray. So how many of those 15 days are actual gun handling and marksmanship?

[1Rangemaster]

OK, I’ll keep that in mind.
Do you know the current qualification course(s)[day and “low light”]?

I can barely imagine how it all works, with around 40,000 personnel. IMO, it’s remarkable that there are not more “NDs”, errant shots, etc. given 15 days of multiple tools training…

[1Rangemaster]

jlw:
I have had read to me what supposedly is the NYPD “auto” CoF. Synopsis is a 50 round course, at 25, 15 and 7 yards.
Times&shots range from 3 rounds in 8 seconds at 25 to 2 rounds in 4 seconds at 7 yards. All strings from holster, I believe. There is at least one reload at 15 yards-2, reload, 1 in 12 seconds. The target was described as a “silhouette”. Looks like I was wrong on dropping the 25 yard string. No minimum score stated.
I will try and get an official copy, but as HCM observed, firearms, shooting and talking about same seems to be, uh, “discouraged”, so to speak. It’s my sense it would be hard to be a “gun person” in that culture.
To get 40,000 people through two quals a year-boggles my mind…
I’ll advise if there is further information.

[Tokarev]

More from Farnham on this topic:

1 Sept 21



This is a note from my good friend, and esteemed colleague, Larry Mudgett, in response to my Quip on NYPD’s recent upgrade to five-pound Glock triggers.



Larry is a legend within our Art. I’ve learned much from him.



When Larry talks, I listen!



“As a young officer in the LAPD Academy (early 1970s), I was taught to keep my finger on the trigger of my revolver any time my gun was in my hand. If I were observed in a scenario training exercise with my finger off the trigger I was called-out as ‘not being ready.’



This was the background of the LAPD.



I became Chief Firearms Instructor for the LAPD. I was assigned to our Training Division for thirteen years at the end of my career.



There, I introduced Jeff Cooper’s Four Universal Safety Rules, and enforced them!



I helped to establish the concept within the LAPD that a discharge which involved a violation of one of the Universal Safety Rules was an act of negligence and worthy of discipline. These rules were pounded into both the recruits and in-service officers.



Officers who attended my Patrol Rifle School, my Tactical Shotgun Course, my Firearms Instructor Schools, or the Autopistol Transition Schools were held to strict standards regarding
safety rules.



Within a few years, the overwhelming majority of our officers had been ‘retrained’ regarding Cooper’s Rule Three:



‘Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target, and you intend to shoot.’



(LAPD’s version of the Rule, as modified by me.)



We accomplished this strict adherence to the rules initially with the DA autos. Officers were following the rules so well that accidental discharges were almost unknown. These habits were well established when we transitioned to 5.5-pound-trigger Glock pistols. Our accidental discharge incidents remained at almost zero.



I was asked to conduct limited training for another agency in Southern CA. I have only the greatest respect for this excellent organization. However, I did notice that officers often had their fingers on the trigger during tactical training situations, room-clearing, etc. Keeping ones finger off the trigger was obviously not a habit they had acquired. I did bring this to the attention of several supervisors. The response suggested that they were okay with this existing situation, stating, ‘That is okay, as we do not cover each other.’



With the M9 (Beretta) pistol, their accident rate remained low, as the DA M9 required a long trigger pull of about twelve pounds as I recall.



When this agency subsequently switched to Glocks, their accident rate went off the charts!



The common practice of having the finger on the trigger during searches, etc, resulted in a relative few ADs with the twelve-pound DA M9. When switching to the Glock, with its 5.5 pound trigger, the jump in accidents became a public news story! Everyone was scrambling to find out why they were having a major increase in accidents.



It was no secret to me! They had not made a habit of adhering to Rule 3. A 5.5 pound trigger is simply not as forgiving as a twelve-pound trigger.



If NYPD sees a jump in accidents with the switch to the 5.5 pound trigger, they need look no further than Rule-3 violations!



It was a major job to get the 10k officers of the LAPD to change their habits and keep their fingers off the trigger, but it was worth the effort. Creating new habits takes time and repetition, and it takes someone willing to hold peoples’ feet to the fire and make it happen.



It can be done.”



There is no doubt that Larry’s uncompromising insistence on correct gun-handling has prevented uncounted UDs. In so doing, Larry managed to ruffle feathers up and down the System, as you might imagine!



No matter how diplomatic you try to be, forward progress will always upset some people, terrify others!



/John




Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

[TGS]

I'm assuming at one point that NYPD had more of a gun culture that encouraged practice, and I'm guessing that the ranges were consolidated at Rodman's neck when that ended due to a multitude of issues, probably including logistical stuff like health hazards on older unventilated ranges and whatnot.

Prior to that, where were the rest of NYPDs ranges? I don't remember seeing any ranges (or remnants of such) at Floyd Bennet Field when I did training there for a week.

The minimization of their available range facilities blows my mind. We use 3 just in the DC region for requalification purposes by probably ~700 agents...plus the training center hours away, which has 3-4 ranges just for residential course work.

[HCM]

I'm assuming at one point that NYPD had more of a gun culture that encouraged practice, and I'm guessing that the ranges were consolidated at Rodman's neck when that ended due to a multitude of issues, probably including logistical stuff like health hazards on older unventilated ranges and whatnot.

Prior to that, where were the rest of NYPDs ranges? I don't remember seeing any ranges (or remnants of such) at Floyd Bennet Field when I did training there for a week.

The minimization of their available range facilities blows my mind. We use 3 just in the DC region for requalification purposes by probably ~700 agents...plus the training center hours away, which has 3-4 ranges just for residential course work.

The current range was built in 1959 but NYPD has been using Rodman’s neck for training since the mid 1930s when it was military “camp”

NYPD special units and some federal agencies go up to Camp Smith a National all guard training facility north of the city.

[MichaelOrick]

I assume the NYPD wanted the heavier trigger to be "safer"?

Lots of ways to define, then measure, that.

Surfing the net I found an unintentional shooting rate for the "light" trigger Glock feds (DOJ) at about 38% of all shooting incidents over a 5 year period. For NYPD it was 15-20% depending on the years looked at.

So NYPD's heavier trigger seemed to work as intended in that regard?

Many others do better than both with lighter Glock triggers. NYPD will find out how they do, better or worse, with lighter Glock triggers.

Review of Shooting Incidents in the Department of Justice
E & I Report I-2004-010
September 2004

[HCM]

I assume the NYPD wanted the heavier trigger to be "safer"?

Lots of ways to define, then measure, that.

Surfing the net I found an unintentional shooting rate for the "light" trigger Glock feds (DOJ) at about 30% of all shooting incidents over a 5 year period. For NYPD it was 15-20% depending on the years looked at.

So NYPD's heavier trigger seemed to work as intended in that regard?

Many others do better than both with lighter Glock triggers. NYPD will find out how they do, better or worse, with lighter Glock triggers.

You are missing part of the equation. As discussed here multiple times, both the weight and the length of the trigger pull are factors with the length of the pull being more significant than the weight.

Though I find the 30% figure suspect, the DOJ elements with Glocks use the standard 5.5lb trigger which has a short length of pull (LOP).

Both the original 8lb NY trigger used by the NY state police and the 12lb NY plus used by NYPD have a longer trigger pull with resistance through out the LOP. That resistance through the entirety of the LOP is more significant to the lower UD rate than the weight difference.

With Gen3 and older Glocks it was popular to combine the normally 8lb NY trigger spring with the minus connector to give a 6lb trigger pull with resistance through the entire LOP. I would argue that 6lb trigger would provide the difference in results vs the standard 5.5lb as the 12lb abomination NYPD has forced on their officers for years.

[xtrtsqrt11]

At one point the NY-1 spring combined with a minus connector was a popular combo to get a "rolling break," however, it only works in gen 1-3 guns.

It was during my last Glock Armorer's course I was sent to (2006) that I saw this in a display model that was available for us to try. The instructor was Dennis Tueller, originator of the 21 foot rule.
He stated that it was primarily to solve the weak trigger return spring possibly breaking (the only Achilles heel of the Glock system he said). It did also do a wonderful job of making the trigger feel better, rather than like a, well, Glock. I also really liked the trigger return compared to stock, it just felt much more positive.
My Team's lead armorer tried for years to get those parts from Glock for the upgrade. He never did get them last time I asked him. We had all Gen 3 G22s at the time.

I haven't heard anything as far as later Gen Glocks not working with this setup.

It will be interesting to see how far this goes (other agencies following suit), hopefully it will be positive with the trigger reduction.

ETA: fixed a typo, clarification

[MichaelOrick]

You are missing part of the equation. As discussed here multiple times, both the weight and the length of the trigger pull are factors with the length of the pull being more significant than the weight.

Though I find the 30% figure suspect, the DOJ elements with Glocks use the standard 5.5lb trigger which has a short length of pull (LOP).



Not missing it, just focused on what NYPD seems to be focused on, the weight.

Things may get worse for them for either change (weight/LOP). Time will tell?

[HCM]

It was during my last Glock Armorer's course I was sent to (2006) that I saw this in a display model that was available for us to try. The instructor was Dennis Tueller, originator of the 21 foot rule.
He stated that it was primarily to solve the weak trigger return spring possibly breaking (the only Achilles heel of the Glock system he said). It did also do a wonderful job of making the trigger feel better, rather than like a, well, Glock. I also really liked the trigger return compared to stock, it just felt much more positive.
My Team's lead armorer tried for years to get those parts from Glock for the upgrade. He never did get them last time I asked him. We had all Gen 3 G22s at the time.

I haven't heard anything as far as later Gen Glocks not working with this setup.

It will be interesting to see how far this goes (other agencies following suit), hopefully it will be positive with the trigger reduction.

ETA: fixed a typo, clarification

Due to the change in internal geometry necessitated by the reduced grip diameter of the Gen 4 the NY/ minus connector combo did not produce good results in the Gen4 guns.

[HCM]

Not missing it, just focused on what NYPD seems to be focused on, the weight.

Things may get worse for them for either change (weight/LOP). Time will tell?

There is an argument to be made that what ever UD risk associated with the standard 5.5lb triggers will be balanced by increased hit potential. Given the crowded environment of NYC an the fact that every bullet fired hits something increased hit potential is, itself a form of safety.

[AMC]

There is an argument to be made that what ever UD risk associated with the standard 5.5lb triggers will be balanced by increased hit potential. Given the crowded environment of NYC an the fact that every bullet fired hits something increased hit potential is, itself a form of safety.

I would argue that a change in trigger pull this significant really calls for a "Transition Course" to teach people the new trigger. Not sure what level of training they'll even be able to offer, considering their logistical issues.

FWIW, the course we're preparing for a Striker Fired Transition is heavily focused on trigger discipline. Heavy use of 1, 2 and 3 shot drills to really maximize first shot discipline, and control of the trigger. And drills that will emphasize "backing off" after the reset during a string of fire. I think this is the only useful purpose of DA/SA to Striker Transition training.....and why it must be serious and mandatory. It should be about teaching them to shoot, and NOT shoot, the new trigger.

[HCM]

I would argue that a change in trigger pull this significant really calls for a "Transition Course" to teach people the new trigger. Not sure what level of training they'll even be able to offer, considering their logistical issues.

FWIW, the course we're preparing for a Striker Fired Transition is heavily focused on trigger discipline. Heavy use of 1, 2 and 3 shot drills to really maximize first shot discipline, and control of the trigger. And drills that will emphasize "backing off" after the reset during a string of fire. I think this is the only useful purpose of DA/SA to Striker Transition training.....and why it must be serious and mandatory. It should be about teaching them to shoot, and NOT shoot, the new trigger.

Your concern is likely the reason why the standard trigger guns are limited to new recruits going through the Academy, at least for the present.

[jnc36rcpd]

https://oig.lacounty.gov/Portals/OIG/Reports/Unintended%20Discharge%20Report.pdf

I wasn't expecting to get much out of an LA County OIG report on police firearms training, but this was generally on point.

As always, training is king. I suspect NYPD will need a serious transition program to convert officers to the 5.5 pound trigger is they have been rolling with twelve pounders, My former agency went from SigSauer or revolvers only to a fairly liberal policy of carrying whatever you qualified on and the firearms staff approved (single action and DA pistols that could not be decocked excepted). It was somewhat unrealistic to expect a rookie cop to purchase a 239 (see the other thread on that pistol to see other issues) when his or her county buddies could strap on a Glock 26 or 27 several hundred dollars cheaper.

The agency eventually went to the FNS-9 and later the Glock 17 and 19 (and, of course, a 26 for the chief because he's so important). I think we figuratively and literally dodged a bullet by not mandating more transition training, first for the troops carrying striker-fired pistol as off-duty or back-up guns, an secondly, during the transition to the FNS-9.

[Bucky]

Too many points to quote, but…

1. I disagree with the idea mentioned earlier on a safety on a general issue firearm… from someone who frequently carries a safety equipped firearm.

2. I had a similar experience as another poster after firing an NYC G19, I thought it was broken.

3. If mandating a 12 trigger pull, it’s better to have a gun that comes by that naturally (or closer to) like the P226. Too bad the 92D was never an option.

4. In summary of this move, it’s about time.

[stinx]

I would argue that a change in trigger pull this significant really calls for a "Transition Course" to teach people the new trigger. Not sure what level of training they'll even be able to offer, considering their logistical issues.

FWIW, the course we're preparing for a Striker Fired Transition is heavily focused on trigger discipline. Heavy use of 1, 2 and 3 shot drills to really maximize first shot discipline, and control of the trigger. And drills that will emphasize "backing off" after the reset during a string of fire. I think this is the only useful purpose of DA/SA to Striker Transition training.....and why it must be serious and mandatory. It should be about teaching them to shoot, and NOT shoot, the new trigger.

When my agency transitioned to striker fired guns from our TDA semi autos our transition course was 20 hours per officer. 4 hours of classroom and 16 hours of range time. I had one boss that was using the argument " That since the new gun is easier to shoot, we should need less training time" I used his argument against him and basically said " Yes the new gun is easier to shoot especially by accident" My chief at the time agreed with me and authorized the 20 hours

[SoCalDep]

https://oig.lacounty.gov/Portals/OIG/Reports/Unintended%20Discharge%20Report.pdf

I wasn't expecting to get much out of an LA County OIG report on police firearms training, but this was generally on point.

That report is an agenda. It is misleading and while much of it is “true”, it’s crafted to make things look a particular way to support an agenda. I can’t say much in public.

That report elicits a bit of anger from me.

In the end I was able to present the right information to the right people and a positive outcome came of it.

[jnc36rcpd]

That report is an agenda. It is misleading and while much of it is “true”, it’s crafted to make things look a particular way to support an agenda. I can’t say much in public.

That report elicits a bit of anger from me.

In the end I was able to present the right information to the right people and a positive outcome came of it.

I'm glad that worked out for you, SoCalDep I would agree the OIG report has an agenda though I'm hard-pressed to determine what it is beyond "LASD (and Surefire) bad and stupid/OIG good and smart.

It doesn't surprise me that people who grew up on the Beretta 92 (and revolver) without weapon lights would have more unintentional discharges than people trained on a striker-fired weapon. That is less likely to apply to switched on troops, but as always...

[OlongJohnson]

With Gen3 and older Glocks it was popular to combine the normally 8lb NY trigger spring with the minus connector to give a 6lb trigger pull with resistance through the entire LOP. I would argue that 6lb trigger would provide the difference in results vs the standard 5.5lb as the 12lb abomination NYPD has forced on their officers for years.

I tried this setup in my Gen3 G34 with a little additional smoothing of slidy points and liked it, as someone who generally likes a good DA trigger. Would be more likely to try a Gen5 if there was some equivalent configuration available.

[OlongJohnson]

Had to do a search. According to this guy, there is a combination of NY trigger spring and minus connector specific for Gen5 Glocks using OE parts.

https://www.glocktalk.com/threads/stock-glock-gen-trigger-options.1830400/#post-28908328

[HCM]

Had to do a search. According to this guy, there is a combination of NY trigger spring and minus connector specific for Gen5 Glocks using OE parts.

https://www.glocktalk.com/threads/stock-glock-gen-trigger-options.1830400/#post-28908328

The minus connector and NY trigger spring for the Gen 5 exist, you can install them and they will function.

Same with putting those parts in a Gen 4. That’s not the issue.

The issue is those combos don’t yield the “sweet rolling break” they produce in the older guns.

[MichaelOrick]

There is an argument to be made that what ever UD risk associated with the standard 5.5lb triggers will be balanced by increased hit potential. Given the crowded environment of NYC an the fact that every bullet fired hits something increased hit potential is, itself a form of safety.

They are hoping that will be the case. Or they can dodge/hide it if it's not?

The NYPD training scores with new trigger improved 5% (88.7 to 93.7).

IIRC, NYPD does not report hit rate anymore, just report positive/negative outcome?

If NYPD's UD rate climbs more than 5%, closer to the fed's 38% from their usual 15-20%, some may not consider that a good trade?

I find these reported UD numbers for the feds and NYPD interesting, because both seem waaay higher than the city/county/state here (who use Glocks/M&Ps).

We will know in a year or two?

[HCM]

They are hoping that will be the case. Or they can dodge/hide it if it's not?

The NYPD training scores with new trigger improved 5% (88.7 to 93.7).

IIRC, NYPD does not report hit rate anymore, just report positive/negative outcome?

If NYPD's UD rate climbs more than 5%, closer to the fed's 38% from their usual 15-20%, some may not consider that a good trade?

I find these reported UD numbers for the feds and NYPD interesting, because both seem waaay higher than the city/county/state here (who use Glocks/M&Ps).

We will know in a year or two?

The "DOJ" number reported earlier in this thread are not UD's for Fed eral LE , they are numbers for all LE (Fed, State. Local) collected by DOJ.

What are you basing your city/county/state numbers on ? I ask because most LE UD's do not make the news, even those with injury. I'm personally aware of at least 7 Fed and local UD's with injury and 2 without injury in my city in the last few years and none made the media.

NYPD has been keeping comprehensive records of firearms incidents and compiling them in an annual report longer than most other agencies. That said individual incidents

[MichaelOrick]

The "DOJ" number reported earlier in this thread are not UD's for Fed eral LE , they are numbers for all LE (Fed, State. Local) collected by DOJ.

What are you basing your city/county/state numbers on ? I ask because most LE UD's do not make the news, even those with injury. I'm personally aware of at least 7 Fed and local UD's with injury and 2 without injury in my city in the last few years and none made the media.

NYPD has been keeping comprehensive records of firearms incidents and compiling them in an annual report longer than most other agencies. That said individual incidents

38% for DOJ, not all feds and not all LE.

[HCM]

ATF, USMS and DEA each have about 5k agents each, FBI has 13k agents. All four agencies have thousands of takforce officers from other state, local and other federal agencies. So total numbers wise that population is similar to NYPD’s

[MichaelOrick]

ATF, USMS and DEA each have about 5k agents each, FBI has 13k agents. All four agencies have thousands of takforce officers from other state, local and other federal agencies. So total numbers wise that population is similar to NYPD’s

Would be nice to get a more detailed breakdown of who DOJ included in those numbers, and how much they contributed to them.

I'm not sure what they mean by "animal control". Feds have shot animals, along with their own feet, thighs, and butts. Do animals shot on raids/warrants count as animal control?

When a USAF vehicle hit a wild horse on the range complex, contract guards working for the feds (not sure if they worked for DOD or DOE; gets convoluted) shot them, not USAF cops, even if the skycops were on scene. Not sure how that gets credited.

[HCM]

Would be nice to get a more detailed breakdown of who DOJ included in those numbers, and how much they contributed to them.

I'm not sure what they mean by "animal control". Feds have shot animals, along with their own feet, thighs, and butts. Do animals shot on raids/warrants count as animal control?

When a USAF vehicle hit a wild horse on the range complex, contract guards working for the feds (not sure if they worked for DOD or DOE; gets convoluted) shot them, not USAF cops, even if the skycops were on scene. Not sure how that gets credited.

Animal shootings whether during enforcement or after an auto accident would only be included in that count if the SA/DUSM/TFO was the shooter, not if merely present.


I think you will find UD rates for DOJ personnel are equal to or slightly less then most state and local agencies.

Comparisons with the military are not really valid. On the one hand, there are relatively few people in the military carrying fully loaded guns 24/7 on a regular basis and you have more long guns then pistols. On the other hand the military likes to make service members a lot of stupid things like unloading and reloading guns three times a day at meals…

[MichaelOrick]

Animal shootings whether during enforcement or after an auto accident would only be included in that count if the SA/DUSM/TFO was the shooter, not if merely present.


I think you will find UD rates for DOJ personnel are equal to or slightly less then most state and local agencies.

Comparisons with the military are not really valid. On the one hand, there are relatively few people in the military carrying fully loaded guns 24/7 on a regular basis and you have more long guns then pistols. On the other hand the military likes to make service members a lot of stupid things like unloading and reloading guns three times a day at meals…

We removed mags from long guns that were chamber empty for meals.

Pistols were left in the holster as they were (round chambered, mag inserted).

Sometimes we did the drive-through at McDonald's w an M60 mounted in the turret of a Peacekeeper or Humvee. Or cruise UofA with Do Wah Diddy Diddy playing on the PA...

Base hospitals could be interesting. Some wanted no guns in the bldg at all unless you were responding to an incident. You had to leave it with your partner or turn it in and draw it again at the armory if alone.

I would not be surprised if UDs were the majority or only shootings for SPs some years. I remember a guy who put a round of HE from his M203 grenade launcher through the roof of his truck. It landed on the roof of the armory and rolled into the gutter. Another who put a three-round burst into the wing of the tanker he was guarding. Some who shot each other playing quick draw on post...

When something that did not exist crashed somewhere it was not supposed to be, I loved getting out of my "black" helicopter (or truck), walking up to the local law and announcing, "there's a new sheriff in town". With a big smile and a wink.

[MichaelOrick]

Here we are 3 years later (8/21 to 8/24).

What are the stats on this, if any? In another thread? If so, I couldn't find it.

Do they track the difference (if any) between the DAO S&W, DAO SIG, and Glock std v heavy?

How many standard v heavy NYPD Glock triggers out there? The Q scores were 5 points higher for std v heavy then, how about now?

in OISs are they hitting more with std v heavy? Missing less?

More or less UIDs? In 2021 the UID rate was 8 of 52 incidents (15%). That go up or down? How did the various pistols compare? Glock std v heavy?

[WobblyPossum]

My understanding is the program was scrapped shortly after it started but there’s talk of trying again.

[L-2]

Post 79,
I don't understand what "program" was scrapped.
For examples:
-the program of issuing or allowing standard (4.5 pound) Glock triggers; if standard lighter triggers were OK'd, then stopped; did all who had a lighter/standard trigger have to go back to have one's Glock modified to the heavier trigger (NY1 trigger spring perhaps)?

-a program of statistically comparing any results between the heavy trigger pull vs. the standard Glock trigger pulls.
-or some other program the NYPD might have started and stopped.

[WobblyPossum]

Post 79,
I don't understand what "program" was scrapped.
For examples:
-the program of issuing or allowing standard (4.5 pound) Glock triggers; if standard lighter triggers were OK'd, then stopped; did all who had a lighter/standard trigger have to go back to have one's Glock modified to the heavier trigger (NY1 trigger spring perhaps)?

-a program of statistically comparing any results between the heavy trigger pull vs. the standard Glock trigger pulls.
-or some other program the NYPD might have started and stopped.

The first one. They started issuing guns with lighter triggers and then stopped. Don’t know whether the lighter triggers were swapped for heavier ones afterwards.

[MichaelOrick]

My mistake.

In 2019 UIDs were 8 of 52 for 15%.

In 2020 there were 10/43 (23%).

In 2021 there were 4/52 (8%).

In 2022 there were 11/62 (18%).

If I read them correctly...

https://www.nyc.gov/site/nypd/stats/reports-analysis/use-of-force.page

[L-2]

Correction to my posts:
I meant 5.5 pound standard Glock trigger pull weight, not 4.5 pound.

[MichaelOrick]

Historical Snapshot 2016-2022
2016 2017 2018 2019 2020 2021 2022
Adversarial Conflict 37 23 17 25 25 36 40
Animal Attack 11 9 4 6 2 5 3
Unintentional Discharge 14 12 8 8 10 4 11
Unauthorized Discharge 10 8 6 13 6 7 8
Total Discharges 72 52 35 52 43 52 62

If they had gone to lighter triggers, we would not have the details to know if that mattered to UIDs, Q scores, or hit rates. They would, but not us.

OBJECTIVE COMPLETION RATE
The “objective completion rate” is the means by which the department, when discussing ID-AC incidents,
determines the effectiveness of a police firearms discharge. When a uniformed member properly and lawfully
perceives a threat serious enough to necessitate the use of a firearm and discharges a firearm properly and
lawfully at a specific threat, the most relevant measure of success is whether the member ultimately stops
the threat. This is the objective completion rate, and it is determined irrespective of the number of rounds discharged
at a particular subject. The objective is considered to be completed when the actions of the subject, specifically those
actions that threaten imminent serious physical injury or death, are stopped by a member’s use of deadly physical
force. The objective completion rate is used for statistical and informational purposes, and is not a factor considered
in the investigation of individual incidents. The department does not calculate a “hit percentage” when describing
an ID-AC incident, in part because the percentages are sometimes unknown (for example, in cases when a subject
flees) and also because of the widely differing circumstances in individual incidents.

From 2016-2022 their OCR ranged from 48-96%. Sounds way better than the hit rate of 8-32% from the old reports.

[Ed L]

I am bringing this old thread up because of a new development. Now all officers can get have the standard 5.5 lb trigger refitted in their gun if the have a NY Trigger.

From someone serving in the NYPD: "A new Operations Order just dropped that authorizes the factory 5.5lbs trigger in all Glocks across the fleet that are currently equipped with the 12lbs trigger. Parts MUST be purchased at the equipment section, and UMOS must provide the receipt to the armory. NO EXCEPTIONS."

[Chuck Whitlock]

That is good news. I wonder if we will see a difference in hit ratios....or UDs....going forward.

[Utm]

That is good news. I wonder if we will see a difference in hit ratios....or UDs....going forward.

NYPD ois videos rarely reflect good training so I would say probably not

[WobblyPossum]

That is good news. I wonder if we will see a difference in hit ratios....or UDs....going forward.

I absolutely expect an increase in NDs. That 12 pound trigger allowed for a lot of careless touching of the trigger without setting it off. The first time I dry fired an NYPD officer’s G19, I thought the striker wasn’t reset because I was applying what I thought was a substantial amount of pressure and the trigger hadn’t moved. I racked the slide to make sure and tried again and only then realized how much pressure it took to set one off. Hopefully they really hammer in the importance of rule 3.

[Cyberpunk1981]

Are they going to allow their MOS to carry full 17 round magazines if their pistol can do so?

[AMC]

NYPD ois videos rarely reflect good training so I would say probably not

Seconded. Granted, NYPD has unique and enormous logistical challenges when it comes to providing firearms training. But when we say that what is actually provided is objectively abysmal, that is also true.

We had some severe challenges getting lateral officers from several large east coast cities (including 2 from NYPD) to be able to qualify on our course, much less display any actual performance. For the 2 NYPD guys at least, it was very eye opening. Both became dedicated shooters and improved dramatically over time.