The Bill Drill

[Prdator]

I use the "Bill Drill" as a Cold test on the range, From a AIWB running a GLock 35, I can do it in the . 2.2-2.4 range. ( on a good day)

What I want to know is for those of you that can do it in under 2 seconds from concealment how long did it take before you got to that bench mark?

Who else run this drill cold?

[ToddG]

To this day I don't know that I would guarantee I could step up and shoot a Bill Drill clean in 2, especially cold.

[jetfire]

I've shot a couple of 1.9ish Bill Drills under various circumstances, and like Todd I wouldn't guarantee that I could do it cold. For me, shooting a continuous string of six shots is really difficult; because I don't really practice bill drills but instead practice mostly shooting 2 shots on multiple targets, I usually start to fall apart around shot #4 on the bill drill.

[ToddG]

practice mostly shooting 2 shots on multiple targets, I usually start to fall apart around shot #4 on the bill drill.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3203/2712018199_77b27a1b98.jpg

:cool:

[JodyH]

From "real" concealment the best I can consistently pull off cold is around 2.5-2.75 sec..
I smashed my right index finger years ago and the scar tissue only moves at .21 sec. and my orangutan arms take 1.5 to go from holster to full extension.
So I doubt I'll ever see a sub-2 Bill Drill.
But that's cool since I already have my excuses lined up.
:cool:

[John Ralston]

It is nice to see someone like ToddG come out and tell you that even HE can't do it every time. Given the large amount of ammo he burns every year, it would seem that the Average Joe isn't going to get there.

I am going to look at my practice and training much different from now on. I am going to look for IMPROVEMENT, and not focus so much on the actual time. As long as I am heading in the right direction (either better hits, or good hits in a shorter time), then I will have deemed it worthwhile.

I used to try and beat the timer (even though nobody would call me fast :D), but now, especially with ammo cost these days, I am going to focus on fundamentals and the quality of the time I spend on the range.

Also, you kind of need to adjust your target, as I think the whole sub-2 second target was from guys using more of a race holster (at least built for access, not concealment) and no cover garment.

And just so you feel better - I think you would smoke me on that drill!

[KentF]

I agree with John.

Since I just recently found this and the pistol-training.com site, I've discovered I'm pretty well behind the curve. I haven't had any formal training for several years now and good instructors are hard to find near here. On my next range trip I plan on shooting some of these drills so I can get a baseline of where I'm at currently. In all honesty, I'm not expecting much. I don't currently have a timer, so I'm hoping on of the timer apps I've downloaded on my Droid will work.

[Mr_White]

For me to get under 2 seconds from concealment (actually I've never tried it unconcealed) I had to switch to AIWB and enjoy a faster first shot. My splits are typically .2. I have not been able to consistently reach faster splits. It was the draw to first shot that made the difference - went from about 1.25-ish from strong side to .85-ish from AIWB. I also have to hit the grip correctly.

A more relevant result is probably when I do it in front of peers/students etc., and often get tense and miss the initial grip, which puts my first shot at about 1.2 to 1.3 and the total time about 2.2 to 2.3 seconds. I also often have one or two shots out of the -0 zone. I do not always shoot it clean. When all that comes together, I get about 1.85, maybe clean, or maybe one or two shots slightly out.

Prdator, what's the breakdown in your time on the Bill Drill? What time is the first shot? Faster first shot is what's getting me under 2 seconds...

[jetfire]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3203/2712018199_77b27a1b98.jpg

:cool:

I lol'd.

Gaming is going to get me killed if I ever get in a real gunfight!

[ToddG]

Gaming is going to get me killed if I ever get in a real gunfight!

Always does. Goes without saying.

[jetfire]

Always does. Goes without saying.

Oh man, that's right. I forgot that once you make IDPA master you sign a card that says that none of the skills you use in IDPA like fast draw times, accurate shots at speed, or shooting on the move could ever be used to save your life. ;)

[ToddG]

Back in my day, we didn't have to sign any stupid card because we already knew that none of the skills you use to excel in competitive shooting had anything to do with being able to draw and hit a real threat rapidly. None whatsoever. :rolleyes:

[KeeFus]

I agree that some skill sets you learn in competition can possibly get you killed in a real gun fight. I would offer though that the reason I shoot IDPA, almost exclusively, is because I routinely carry concealed a G-19. You do not see me, or anyone else that I have noticed, wearing their gun around concealed or otherwise in some type of CR Speed Rig that sits out 3 inches in front of their thigh. Even more so with an STI topped off with a red dot sight of some sort.

The skill sets that I take away from IDPA are the ability to draw from concealment, reload from concealment, maintain cover, shooting on the move, shooting moving targets, and just basic manipulation of my weapon. Even more so is the self induced stress to perform under the pressure of a clock.

I would respectfully submit that any shooting, whether it be basic static marksmanship training or other shooting discipline, is better than nothing…which is what most folks do after they buy their weapons. Hell, Cops for that matter are the world’s worst! I’ve seen people on the firing line have a malfunction and raise their hand for the firearms instructor to come help them clear their weapon! Under the stress of a real gun fight they would be DOA. They can't think under the mere presence of other officers much less the presence of time. But as far as agencies are concerned, as long as they have a passing score they are ok. That’s just not enough for me.

Learning to manipulate my weapon under stress is what competition is to me. Some guys love to run-n-gun and that’s fine. Just don’t discount what competition can do…which is build competence & confidence with the weapon. Yes, there are gamers out there and, as with any sport, you will always have it.

[jar]

I would offer though that the reason I shoot IDPA, almost exclusively, is because I routinely carry concealed a G-19. You do not see me, or anyone else that I have noticed, wearing their gun around concealed or otherwise in some type of CR Speed Rig that sits out 3 inches in front of their thigh. Even more so with an STI topped off with a red dot sight of some sort.


There's no reason you can't use your carry gear to shoot USPSA Production also. You'll probably take some good natured ribbing if you use your concealment clothing, but no big deal. So many people who shoot IDPA think you need fancy race gear for USPSA and it's just not true. The Production equipment rules are VERY similar to IDPA SSP minus the concealment factor. There's some minor mods that are allowed in Production but not SSP (guide rods and stippling being the biggies), and you can use a dropped and/or offset holster, but that's about it.

[dravz]

There's no reason you can't use your carry gear to shoot USPSA Production also. You'll probably take some good natured ribbing if you use your concealment clothing, but no big deal. So many people who shoot IDPA think you need fancy race gear for USPSA and it's just not true. The Production equipment rules are VERY similar to IDPA SSP minus the concealment factor. There's some minor mods that are allowed in Production but not SSP (guide rods and stippling being the biggies), and you can use a dropped and/or offset holster, but that's about it.

I shoot USPSA Production just as a way to induce stress and perform under pressure. It also takes a little getting used to shooting stages without any warm-up, which I think is another meaningful skill you can take home from competition, as any defensive situation will happen spontaneously, also without any warm-up.

[JodyH]

I shoot USPSA Limited from concealed.
The reason I shoot in limited is because I carry AIWB and I like to load my magazines to full capacity.
Unless you're a top A or MA shooter in a hyper-competitive match, the extra .5 second concealment adds to you time won't matter at all.
When you first start shooting matches from concealed you might hear a few comments, but you can shut them down pretty quick by scoring higher than they do.
The gear queers who do the most talking are usually the worst shots, so that's usually not a problem.

[KeeFus]

I shot a USPSA match in November of 09. I shot in Production/Unclassified. I won that classification and would have placed third in 'B' class if I had been classified. Overall, I placed 9th out of 30 in production. I used my IDPA set up, with the exception of an extra double mag pouch...minus the concealment gear. I took a good bit of ribbing from the USPSA groupies because the guy I was there with, a GM in USPSA Limited as of last week, decided it would be nice to tell the squad the new guy shoots IDPA. I still don't understand why there is a beef between the 2 organizations but it is what it is and a little good natured shit talking is just fine with me. Believe me, I gave it back, especially when one particular guy's weapon, which had a kickstand and a red dot optic on it, went south on him...he didnt care for the comment though...guess the shit talking only goes one way when your gun goes to pot on you. :D

This was a local match @ Sir Walter Gun Club (http://www.sirwaltergunclub.com/)in Creedmore, NC. I dont know, but from what I was told on that day that 'local' match is one of the best local matches in the country...had to of been because a high profile shooter was there and was shooting on my squad. There were well over a hundred people in attendance. (I tried to attach the actual shooting results but it's in wordpad...:confused:)

I did have fun shooting the match as any trigger time is good but with over 100 people there it took all freaking day to shoot...it was literally about an hour before sunset before we finished. I haven't written off USPSA...there are just more opportunities to shoot IDPA in my area than there are USPSA matches. I can literally shoot an IDPA match here every weekend, which provides a bit of flexibility on my weekends off for options outside of shooting.

[NickA]

Back in my day, we didn't have to sign any stupid card because we already knew that none of the skills you use to excel in competitive shooting had anything to do with being able to draw and hit a real threat rapidly. None whatsoever. :rolleyes:
I just heard a good quote on this, attributed to Mas Ayoob, though I don't know for sure-"A pistol match isn't a gunfight, but a gunfight is damn sure a pistol match" or words to that effect. Also have seen that Jim Cirillo listed competitive shooting as a common trait among the successful gunfighters he knew (among other things).

[rsa-otc]

I recently heard an interview with Bill Allard Jim Cirillo's partner on the NY Stake Out Squad. What isn't commonly know is that Bill was in more gun fights than his famous partner Cirillo. Definitely a been there done that kind of guy.

In this interview he stressed the importance of acquiring the front sight during a gun fight. He also stated that he felt competition even bulls eye is important to surviving the fight. Competition strengthened your mental focus on front sight, press under stress. He liked IDPA. Funny how an experienced gunfight survivor finds IDPA good training for gun fights and lessor experienced folks tell you it's orly a game is not serious training.

[NickA]

I recently heard an interview with Bill Allard Jim Cirillo's partner on the NY Stake Out Squad. What isn't commonly know is that Bill was in more gun fights than his famous partner Cirillo.
That was the ProArms podcast right? Their interview with Bob Stasch(?) Of the Chicago PD was also outstanding.

[KeeFus]

Bill Allard interview:

http://proarmspodcast.com/2008/10/26/010-save-the-blue-trail-range-and-a-conversation-with-bill-allard/

[Chris Rhines]

The 2.0-second Bill Drill is considered by many to be a standard test of Master-level shooting. That said, I can't pull off a sub-2 Bill Drill on demand, without concealment. I can usually get 2.25, but I've only broken 2.0 clean a handful of times. I've been training and competing seriously for six years, three years focusing on Production pistols.

It's a good drill, although it does eat up the ammo fast. There's nothing better for developing your grip and stance, and learning to manage recoil and read the sights.

[Bill Lance]

But that's cool since I already have my excuses lined up.
:cool:

As we say in the airplane world-------excuses should come "early and often."

[Wayne Dobbs]

I watched one of my co-workers do a BD at 1.57 seconds yesterday with all six in the A zone. He did it with a Glock 19 from a Blade Tech kydex (unconcealed). Blew my mind...

[Prdator]

I watched one of my co-workers do a BD at 1.57 seconds yesterday with all six in the A zone. He did it with a Glock 19 from a Blade Tech kydex (unconcealed). Blew my mind...



HOLY crap!!!!! What was his first shot time/ split time??

[jthhapkido]

I watched one of my co-workers do a BD at 1.57 seconds yesterday with all six in the A zone. He did it with a Glock 19 from a Blade Tech kydex (unconcealed). Blew my mind...

Wow.

At what distance are people doing these bill drills? Are you saying he drew from a holster and fired 6 shots into the A-zone of a standard IPSC target at 7 yards (Or 10 yards? How far away was the target?) in 1.57 seconds?

That's amazing. Even with a 0.65 second draw (which is TGO-fast) that still means 0.18 second splits for the entire run.

[KentF]

[quote]Six shots are fired as quickly as the shooter can achieve six hits on the target. The drill teaches sight tracking, proper visual reference, recoil management, and trigger manipulation.[\quote]

I'm looking for some clarification on the above. Do hits ANYWHERE on target count or do they have to hit in a certain scoring zone.

[jetfire]

The "classic" Bill Drill was 6 shots at an 8 inch circle at 10 yards. What it's become now is 6 shots at a target of a given size at a certain distance. So you could do a Bill Drill on a full sized IPSC target and count the whole target if your goal is to just spray bullets, or count only the A-zone, etc.

[KentF]

Thanks, Time to buy some 8" paper plates. :)

[Prdator]

Here is a link to a list of Drill's, this is were I got info on the Bill drill and others.
http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/HandgunDrills.pdf


#5 Bill Drill (after Bill Wilson)
Teaches: draw, grip, rapid-fire, recoil control, "adequate" rather than "perfect" sight picture.
With one IPSC target 7 yards away, start from surrender position, draw, and fire 6 shots into the A-
zone. If any shots miss the A-zone, the time does not count, so the emphasis is on accuracy before
speed.
Brian Enos puts master-level time for this Drill as 2.0 seconds.
Variations: for a beginner, bring the target as close as 8 feet, or start from low ready instead of
holstered. Shoot as fast as you can while keeping the shots in the A-zone and keeping a feeling of
control over the gun. The point is to get used to the feeling of controlled rapid fire, learning to watch
the sight, and familiarizing yourself with rapid-fire recoil characteristics. Drawing from the holster
helps you to learn to acquire a good shooting grip; otherwise the gun will start to feel out of control. If
you are missing the A-zone, you're making mistakes. SLOW DOWN and do it right. This Drill can be
a real ammo burner.

[Wayne Dobbs]

My co-worker had a first shot of about 0.75 seconds out of the holster (can't recall the exact time) and was shooting .15-.16 second splits. Range was seven yards on a standard IPSC silhouette. All six in the A zone. The shooter is a small Asian (Korean) dude who spent a long time downrange in Iraq as a PSD operator and we now work together in the same training op. His shooting is superlative...if I hadn't seen it I wouldn't have believed it.

[Slavex]

First drill I did today at the range. Steel plate with IPSC A zone painted on it, cold, 1.98 second all hits in the A zone. Bear in mind not shooting from concealment but from a Bladetech DOH. Next two passes under 2 with one miss on the last pass. Did it again a few times at the end of the day over 2 each time but only just and all hits good.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Slavex,

That is OUTSTANDING shooting!

[fuse]

First drill I did today at the range. Steel plate with IPSC A zone painted on it, cold, 1.98 second all hits in the A zone. Bear in mind not shooting from concealment but from a Bladetech DOH. Next two passes under 2 with one miss on the last pass. Did it again a few times at the end of the day over 2 each time but only just and all hits good.

Gonna need video.

[Slavex]

Gonna try taking video tomorrow. Never done that before at practice. All my video has been shot by a buddy at matches.

[Prdator]

My co-worker had a first shot of about 0.75 seconds out of the holster (can't recall the exact time) and was shooting .15-.16 second splits. Range was seven yards on a standard IPSC silhouette. All six in the A zone. The shooter is a small Asian (Korean) dude who spent a long time downrange in Iraq as a PSD operator and we now work together in the same training op. His shooting is superlative...if I hadn't seen it I wouldn't have believed it.



Hey Wayne,

Would you ask your Co-Worker, how long it took him to build that kind of speed?
Did he start off with us mortals in the 1.3 sec range to first shot and .21 splits?

We'll see you at the Tactical Conference!! :cool:

[JodyH]

Back in my Walther P99 shooting days I could break a 1 sec. draw from OWB and dip below .15 splits, but I've since smashed my trigger finger and switched to the H&K LEM which has settled my splits into the .21 range.
Sometimes living la vida loca has it's downside.

[Slavex]

I hit .78 yesterday a couple times on the draw, and hit the steel, but not A zones. I have a tough time staying below a second with good, aimed shots. And that's from an OWB holster. for you guys that do it, or anywhere near that from concealment, of any kind, you have my respect.

[Slavex]

ok, so no camera today. But it wouldn't have mattered. Bill Drill right off the bat in 2.22, second pass 2.02. arrg
Fast Drill 4.39 clean. 4.68 clean.
best reload today (not doing either of the above) 1.13 IPSC target at 7yds clean A zone hit.

[fuse]

ok, so no camera today. But it wouldn't have mattered. Bill Drill right off the bat in 2.22, second pass 2.02. arrg
Fast Drill 4.39 clean. 4.68 clean.
best reload today (not doing either of the above) 1.13 IPSC target at 7yds clean A zone hit.

Sevigny, is that you?

[Slavex]

Yeah not even close to Dave for speed or accuracy. Plus those represent best times. Dave would do those in his sleep, all day long. I get a couple good runs and then that's it.

[jslaker]

Man it's gonna be awkward if Monsieur Sevigny ever decides to show up here.

[Slavex]

beyond the fact that he'd blow our times out of the water, he'd also humble us with his cool personality. Dave is a good dude, I look forward to seeing him in Greece this fall. Maybe just maybe, the MD listened to my request to be squadded with him.

[mnealtx]

Always does. Goes without saying.

Edit: Read the article on p-t... disregard

[ToddG]

Actually, the PTC entry for this drill needs to be corrected. Ken Hackathorn told me today that the drill was positively done at 7yd, not ten.

[jetfire]

Damn, that means I've been doing it wrong all these years!

[fuse]

Actually, the PTC entry for this drill needs to be corrected. Ken Hackathorn told me today that the drill was positively done at 7yd, not ten.

This...changes...everything

[vecdran]

Thread inspired me to run some Bill Drills during practice tonight. First cold was decent, next two were terrible, last two I ran at the end of the night were much better.

2.36 (-2)
2.31 (-5)
2.50 (-6)
2.43 (-1)
2.42 (-0)

All of my downs were strung up neatly into the lower head box of an IDPA target. I'm going to do this drill more, I can get kind of sloppy with my trigger and recoil control on controlled pairs and still hit the -0, but on six shots it pays to stick to the fundamentals. On all of my runs my splits accelerated as the string progressed, as did my decreasing accuracy.