Why (untimed) dot torture is like Tee ball

[JCN]

Disclaimer, this is only my opinion. You don’t have to agree.

Dot torture when run untimed or liberally timed is like Tee ball.

It’s good for basic skill development and it is true, if you can’t hit a ball sitting there on a tee… you won’t be able to do it when it’s thrown at you.

But it’s very basic. The ball on the tee is like your sights on target. You get all the time in the world to make sure you can see and judge it.

What happens in the next step? When the pitch is thrown to you?

You learn to judge and do the math in a simple orientation. Vertical drop and the speed it comes to you. This is where recoil management and presentation at speed comes into play when shooting. You watch the sights go up and down, you get a quick sight picture and your brain does the math of where and when to “pull the trigger” whether with a bat or with a gun.

The better your ability to see and extrapolate timing quickly, the faster you can do this. You can hit faster pitches and you can time your recoil management to hit the center of the target on a “bounce.”

People who can draw and split quickly and accurately can do this. It’s the dynamic vision and triggering that’s missing from Tee ball.

Then what happens in the next step after that?

If you’re locked into the simple axis visual calculation and mechanics, then you can start managing fancy and complicated things.

Curve balls, breaking balls, etc. You know what the simple mechanics are supposed to look like, so you quickly can tell when it deviates from that and you can micro correct quickly. For shooting this is when you can do full transitions in the same time as a regular split (0.20 s or so). Your brain can process recoil movement AND physical movement at the same time off your vision cues.


https://youtu.be/83ox_o-nQ7c


https://youtu.be/1zknAzX2nr4

IMO IMO IMO.

Untimed drills are Tee Ball.
Single target or just vertical transitions are simple pitches.
Many “tactical” drills are space constrained due to their setup and are just on a single target or small vertical transition.

IMO, lateral transitions are a more important skill than slide lock reloads for civilians, but it’s rare that there is much taught in that regard. USPSA and action pistol help address some of the complex visual geometry because like everything else, lateral movement and coordination is a skill that needs to be developed and practiced.

[David S.]

Curious, How much formal training do you have?

[HCM]

Curious, How much formal training do you have?

And how much of that involves instructional design, adult learning, teaching etc rather than shooting?

Being a gifted athlete doesn’t necessarily make you a competent coach. Magic Johnson being a classic example. One of the most gifted and successful players ever but an abject failure as a coach.

[JCN]

Curious, How much formal training do you have?


And how much of that involves instructional design, adult learning, teaching etc rather than shooting.

Being a gifted athlete doesn’t necessarily make you a competent coach. Magic Johnson being a classic example. One of the most gifted and successful players ever but an abject failure as a coach.

Years and thousands of hours at the top programs in the nation.

How about you?

I’m not a gifted athlete. My first handgun shot was at 40 years old.

My ability to make USPSA GM in two years from starting was because of my background in training and education.

You can ask JCS or Moylan about my ability to coach handguns.

I have a bunch of new students in the training program, but they’re only two weeks in.

[MickAK]

Skill development is often highly personal. There's a fairly good analogy in weight lifting or other forms of exercise. Some people will respond better than others to certain programs. The complicated part is finding that once past the basics.

DT is a good baseline and assessment. I don't think the nature of the drill lends itself to time pressure.

[JCN]

Skill development is often highly personal. There's a fairly good analogy in weight lifting or other forms of exercise. Some people will respond better than others to certain programs. The complicated part is finding that once past the basics.

DT is a good baseline and assessment. I don't think the nature of the drill lends itself to time pressure.

Totally agree with the first part. Some people never progress past the basics. Often because they don’t care to. Sometimes because they don’t understand what the next steps are. If you never saw baseball, you might think tee ball was all there was.

Totally disagree with the second part. It’s perfect for a speed drill. It’s basically like component parts of a Casino drill, is it not?

If you allow one second to do a dot torture transition, it ceases to be a transition.

If you allow three seconds for a draw, it ceases to be a draw.

Tee ball.

[John Hearne]

If you allow three seconds for a draw, it ceases to be a draw.
Tee ball.

Apparently one of the most successful police gunfighters of the later 20th Century played a lot of tee ball:

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/with-deadly-force-podcast/id1507599953?i=1000532572767

[MickAK]

Totally agree with the first part. Some people never progress past the basics. Often because they don’t care to. Sometimes because they don’t understand what the next steps are. If you never saw baseball, you might think tee ball was all there was.

Totally disagree with the second part. It’s perfect for a speed drill. It’s basically like component parts of a Casino drill, is it not?

If you allow one second to do a dot torture transition, it ceases to be a transition.

If you allow three seconds for a draw, it ceases to be a draw.

Tee ball.

I suppose a better analogy would be a 1pl warmup for squats or deadlifts. You start with a lighter weight and see if there's any creaking or snapping noises (well, excessive noises, I'm getting older) and then you can move on.

It could be a time pressure drill, sure, but that would take away it's usefulness to me. Going through the motions without time pressure lets me look for weaknesses before the pressure is on. If you're allowing yourself 3 seconds for a draw you have other issues.

[camel]

I was always a good hitter. Of the ball. I think that implies hand eye coordination. Wich is what maybe makes or breaks your skill level?

[JCN]

Apparently one of the most successful police gunfighters of the later 20th Century played a lot of tee ball:

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/with-deadly-force-podcast/id1507599953?i=1000532572767

I may get a chance to listen to that later, but I’m going to assume there’s a straw man there.

I’m going to guess that the person in question, if he did do dot torture actually did do it timed. Not necessarily with an electronic timer, but with his own internal timer. I do that quite a bit in practice. I can still time pressure and call accurate splits, draws and transitions down to hundredths.

Here’s a video I did for my students:


https://youtu.be/uiW7OySdFn4

I shot to vision, but I knew what kind of pace it would be to repeat it 9/10 times. Three targets of different sizes and time execution on one take.

I do a lot of work on tiny dots. But always with some sort of running time check whether internal or external. And I’m always pushing that timing as well as accuracy.

I’m going to guess that applies to that gunfighter as well, but if you tell me otherwise I’ll listen to the podcast.

I qualified my description of Tee ball limited to untimed / liberally timed dot torture.

Untimed / liberally timed groups are useful sometimes. Untimed / liberally timed draws and transitions are not except for the most basic of basic. Will qualify again that internally timed and pushing for execution of stringent internal timing isn’t what we are talking about here.


It could be a time pressure drill, sure, but that would take away it's usefulness to me. Going through the motions without time pressure lets me look for weaknesses before the pressure is on. If you're allowing yourself 3 seconds for a draw you have other issues.

Tee ball. At what point do you test for weaknesses WHEN the pressure is on? I’m not saying it’s not a good drill. But it’s very basic and if you stop there, you stop there.

[vcdgrips]

This is where is threads like this start to break down:

David S asked you (JCN) how much formal training to do you have. I understood and I think you understood the question to mean firearms formal training.

You response based on my recollection of your response(s) to this question in other threads was not responsive as the thousands of hours you reference pertain to other types of training, NOT firearms training. If I am mistaken , please explain and I will stand corrected.


A more direct and transparent response would have looked like:

"I have no formal firearms training in a classroom/range setting conducted by someone else. I have harnessed my thousands of hours of other training experiences from other realms in a self taught firearms program which has led my from novice to GM in 2 ish years. Moreover, I am 43 and I never shot a pistol until I was 40."

See the difference......



As to the named example made popular by our founder TLG (RIP) ---A timed Dot Torture Test which includes speed reholstering is a recipe for disaster and could create training scars leading to conduct that is profoundly unsound on a tactical basis.

I completely agree that timed exercises can be useful to establish baseline against which progress can be tracked on a regular, consistent and comparable manner.

[JCN]

I was always a good hitter. Of the ball. I think that implies hand eye coordination. Wich is what maybe makes or breaks your skill level?

It definitely helps. But trigger coordination is maybe a little more specialized than most hand / eye endeavors? It seems specialized enough that most people require specific practice with that specific skill.

There’s also a common sentiment that most people without a physical handicap can make M level in USPSA so it doesn’t seem like physical ability is the limiting factor for most people in becoming proficient with a handgun. Most of it is mental limitation / lack of curiosity/ lack of a process for ongoing improvement and feedback.

[MickAK]

Tee ball. At what point do you test for weaknesses WHEN the pressure is on? I’m not saying it’s not a good drill. But it’s very basic and if you stop there, you stop there.

It's a warm up/assessment drill for me and I would guess for others. Why would you stop at a warm up/assessment? You test for weaknesses with time pressure on once you've ensured the basic mechanics are sound. If you're saying that it isn't possible to check basic mechanics without time pressure I would disagree.

Calling it Teeball is just inflammatory for no good purpose.

[JCN]

Curious, How much formal training do you have?


And how much of that involves instructional design, adult learning, teaching etc rather than shooting?

Being a gifted athlete doesn’t necessarily make you a competent coach. Magic Johnson being a classic example. One of the most gifted and successful players ever but an abject failure as a coach.

vcdgrips these are the two questions that were asked in quick succession.

Note that HCM asked about background in learning and education.

I answered that question and I asked David S about his background in learning and education.

Do you not see the irony that actually where “threads like this start to break down” is from David’s question.

He did not answer his own question nor address the actual topic discussed in the post.

There are people here that have taken many high level classes that continue to shoot at a D/C level. Either the instruction was poor or the student was. Either way, number of hours spent in classes doesn’t correlate well with ability and achievement.

With regards to education and mastery, I have both of those well covered. That ability to break down and eliminate waste in training is why I was able to progress quickly and help others as well.


A timed Dot Torture Test which includes speed reholstering is a recipe for disaster and could create training scars leading to conduct that is profoundly unsound on a tactical basis.

I completely agree that timed exercises can be useful to establish baseline against which progress can be tracked on a regular, consistent and comparable manner.

If I were to design improvement in Dot Torture, it would look something like this:

Timed dot torture:
Shot at 3 yards. Each string is timed separately because only time on task counts and matters (not reholstering).

Pick a speed that you feel you could execute a string 9 out of 10 times successfully.

Run each string on a shot timer and write down your draw and split times for each string.

Goal minimum acceptable performance would be draws (open holster) in 1.5 seconds and follow up freestyle shots in less than 0.4 seconds. Concealment allows an extra 0.25s. Freestyle transitions also are only allowed 0.4 seconds or less.

Weak / strong hand splits must be under 0.7 seconds.

Any string you fail to meet time or accuracy standards, you must practice those preferentially before running the whole drill again.

—-

What it achieves that the original untimed or the aggregate timing drill doesn’t is that it lets you break down and practice not just the accuracy component but the accuracy at speed component getting you used to slow pitch at least with a context of minimum standard. Nobody should be reholstering fast and no drill should have reholstering on a clock.

[JCN]

It's a warm up/assessment drill for me and I would guess for others. Why would you stop at a warm up/assessment? You test for weaknesses with time pressure on once you've ensured the basic mechanics are sound. If you're saying that it isn't possible to check basic mechanics without time pressure I would disagree.

Calling it Teeball is just inflammatory for no good purpose.

Why would you have a 50 round warm up?

There’s a reason why many defensive drills are meant to be shot cold without warm up.

I don’t think many self defense shootings allow for warm up time.

If you don’t know your speed / accuracy cold… doesn’t it seem like that’d be a good warm up?

Untimed / liberally timed warm up is Tee ball because it is ridiculously basic. With even a moderate but trackable parameter you can get so much more out of it.

Try your warmup with the time parameters I suggested. They’re not very stringent but you can highlight weaknesses that are out of proportion to the others.

[Kirk]

I'm not going to question a USPSA GM regarding the amount of "formal training" he has personally, as he has proven that he is a badass with a handgun. Much like I wouldn't question a legitimate BJJ blackbelt from a solid lineage how much formal training he has lol. I think for a more skilled audience, JCN's point makes sense; though there is no doubt that beginners/intermediates can likely derive some benefits out of the plain dot torture as is.

My question for JCN - how can I make the dot torture a better drill? I know your post is largely about untimed drills in general and the DT was just an example used, but I'm curious how you'd make the dot torture an advanced drill. What changes would you make specifically? I was thinking that for most higher level shooters here, 10 yards with specific par times would be pretty beast. 10 yards seems a decent distance for many of us, but I'm trying to figure out particular par times and would love your input. I think something like the dot torture with par at 10 yards could function as a really good test, is pretty efficient at only 50 rounds, and can be run indoors too.

[JCN]

Most people who remain C/D shooters are not able to either critically self assess their weaknesses or willingly choose to ignore them because it make them feel better about themselves.

I’ve run into a number of excellent self taught shooters at the range and in competition and bar none, they were curious people who liked the process of learning.

Invariably, the people who remain C/D level shooting after more than a few years are either complacent or desire to just practice their strengths. No amount of classes or formal instruction will give them more than a small blip on the radar.

Part of my fun experiment I have going on in the training journal section is taking 10 chronic C/D shooters and seeing how far they can get with directed coaching and about 1-2 hours a WEEK of dry fire.

I’ve done it with a couple individual students so far and both were able to break through their previous plateaus quickly and decisively by getting more specific feedback and goals defined.

[JCN]

Timed dot torture:
Shot at 3 yards. Each string is timed separately because only time on task counts and matters (not reholstering).

Pick a speed that you feel you could execute a string 9 out of 10 times successfully.

Run each string on a shot timer and write down your draw and split times for each string.

Goal minimum acceptable performance would be draws (open holster) in 1.5 seconds and follow up freestyle shots in less than 0.4 seconds. Concealment allows an extra 0.25s. Freestyle transitions also are only allowed 0.4 seconds or less.

Weak / strong hand splits must be under 0.7 seconds.

Any string you fail to meet time or accuracy standards, you must practice those preferentially before running the whole drill again.

—-

What it achieves that the original untimed or the aggregate timing drill doesn’t is that it lets you break down and practice not just the accuracy component but the accuracy at speed component getting you used to slow pitch at least with a context of minimum standard. Nobody should be reholstering fast and no drill should have reholstering on a clock.

Kirk see above for like B level.


I'm not going to question a USPSA GM regarding the amount of "formal training" he has personally, as he has proven that he is a badass with a handgun. Much like I wouldn't question a legitimate BJJ blackbelt from a solid lineage how much formal training he has lol. I think for a more skilled audience, JCN's point makes sense; though there is no doubt that beginners/intermediates can likely derive some benefits out of the plain dot torture as is.

My question for JCN - how can I make the dot torture a better drill? I know your post is largely about untimed drills in general and the DT was just an example used, but I'm curious how you'd make the dot torture an advanced drill. What changes would you make specifically? I was thinking that for most higher level shooters here, 10 yards with specific par times would be pretty beast. 10 yards seems a decent distance for many of us, but I'm trying to figure out particular par times and would love your input. I think something like the dot torture with par at 10 yards could function as a really good test, is pretty efficient at only 50 rounds, and can be run indoors too.

This is where I can help because you don’t know what you don’t know. I’m assuming the target is one where the whole drill is on one sheet of copy paper.

I wouldn’t move it any farther back than 3 yards, I’d cut the time instead.

The times I gave above are for B level or so and should be able to be done cold on demand 9/10 times.

In the example I posted, my 1.0s draw with approximate 0.20-0.25 split with bullet holes touching. That kind of accuracy scales to a 7 yard head box on demand.

So I would start with the time parameters I suggested and find out where your weak areas are.

Then dry fire them and then live fire them with the goal being continued dot stability at speed.

If you see the shot, you take the shot. For my 1.04 s draw, I knew I had the shot and took it. More time would not have helped because my vision and mechanics were there.

So work on the parts leading up to the trigger press to get the dot or irons as stable as possible on target as soon as possible. That’ll translate to good things.

But wherever you are, keep working on making it better. Marching components of the drills down in time while maintaining accuracy is the name of the game.

I am not a tactician so I will leave it to those guys. But I would imagine the ability to accurately put rounds rapidly on a small, close target would be more useful than doing bullseye type stuff at 10 yards. At the speed and accuracy of my first string on the 2” dot, that level of vision scales out to an A zone body at 15 yards.

So you can get good at distance by demanding accuracy even close up.

But without active timing and recoil management as well as transitions, you’re missing the dynamic aspect.

[LOKNLOD]

I think it's a mistake to consider Dot Torture a "drill" at all. Forgive a bit of a semantics game, but in the firearms training context a drill is task designed to be repeated (drilled?) to build automaticity of some specific skill or set of skills. When benchmarking is applied via time and accuracy standards, many drills can be used as tests, i.e., Gabe's use of various failure response drills as class tests after much repetition, but not all tests make good drills - notably for all us PF'ers the good ol' FAST test is not intended to be a drill but rather a test, as it's set up to test certain skills in a certain order that may not really be what you want to drill in as habit.

Dot Torture is a test. It's an untimed test of a broad set of basic fundamentals, building in complexity (not that it ever gets terribly complex, but it does build upward). You can adjust the difficulty of the test by increasing the distance. Secondarily, it is a subtle mental composure test - as you start basic and build up, there's a lot of mental pressure buildup and it's easy enough for many folks to Jedi-mind-fuck themselves into making a mistake as the pressure mounts.

What it doesn't do, is repeat any one skill with enough structured repetition to build it. One might argue that you still have to get 50 solidly good shots in, and that's true. But if that's all your after shooting all manner of other dot drills might be a better choice. The extra complications as DT moves along are just enough to make good assessment of what you're doing wrong difficult, especially for the kind of shooters who might struggle with DT in the first place - usually newer shooters -- and likely aren't the best at self diagnosis. "I dropped one during the 1 reload 1 string, i better practice my reloads" - is that the right call? Maybe, but probably not... This is the reason a lot of more experienced shooters who many don't struggle to clean it, but perhaps also can't consider it a gimme - do use it as a "warm up". It's a test that provides something to latch onto to guide structure for the rest of the session. However when i do this it always just tells me I need to work on my one-handed shooting :cool:

If I were to restructure the DT, I'd call it the Dot Torture Test, I'd change the order so that the two one-hand strings are last after all the two-handed work which would still ramp from basic accuraccy from the ready, all the way to transitions and reloads. It would be a 40-round pass-fail test. Then if you clean it, you'd get the bonus round for the strong hand and weak hand only shooting. So a passing score is 40. Anything less than that is a hard fail, and if you can't score the 40 there's not much point trying the single handed bonus rounds. The goal, overall, is still 50. And for a hard charger experienced guy, anything less that that is still a fail in his mind. That wouldn't change. But as a tool, for testing mostly novices, a 40 is a solid score baseline to encourage folks while incentivizing improvement of the single-handed skills.

A timed out version of that, would be an additional level of test. Once you have both time and distance variables, there's a million ways to skin the cat. But I still think it's a test...

[43Under]

I don't necessarily disagree with the basic premise of this thread. Not a huge fan of Dot Torture anyway.

But I am intrigued by JCN's constant "biases" for lack of a better term, presupposing that everyone should be on the same path he is.

I'm one of those people who has taken tons of "tactical" classes. I don't shoot USPSA, but I am rated Expert in most IDPA divisions. Not sure what that might equate to in USPSA. Don't much care. Whatever.

But I don't take "tactical classes" to become a GM level USPSA shooter.

Skills I have learned in classes that are sort of incongruent with USPSA shooting include:

1. Shooting safely around others.
2. Clearing a room/structure.
3. Shooting in low-light/no light scenarios
4. PROPER use of cover (no fault lines in real life)
5. Shooting in/around/from vehicles
6. Shooting from retention (there's no way you have a retention position built in to your sub-second draw).
7. Shooting while entangled with others
8. WHEN to draw/when to shoot (legally)
9. "Tactical anatomy" (for lack of a better term).
10. Target discrimination

Among others....

Hopefully you get the idea. SOME of us take "tactical classes" because we are more interested (and have more use for) the application of marksmanship in much more dynamic environments (such as real life would provide) than are offered in matches. I shoot matches to work on the skills that matches can assist with, and to just have fun (imagine that). I don't have the curiosity to do the things you suggest because they do not apply to me.

Maybe you should take A class and see what it's like before you essentially accuse people of wasting their money (Bolke and Dobbs would be a great start!). At least that's what I inferred from some of your comments here and in other threads.

[YVK]

The only thing that I remember about this subject is that when I shot a DT last I was shooting everything, including USPSA, with my irons sighted carry gun and I couldn't clean it at 7 yards.

[JCN]

LOKNLOD your points are well taken and either as a drill or a test, I think it is still basic which isn’t a bad thing it’s just a thing. I have no problem with Tee ball. I think some people think that’s the terminal goal.

The other thing I have noticed with the utilization of the drill by C/D is that they often will refer to it as aggregate
scoring as well without recognizing / realizing that they continue to have issues with a particular type of string over and over again. They just will say “44/50, pretty good!” But they were 0/6 on the same item again and again.

The lack of feedback and direct learning is why they don’t improve. Which is why complete aggregate often allows people to hide behind their strengths and ignore weaknesses.

Even imparting a modest time goal and tracking each string separately will give oodles of improvement over untimed.

The reason why I improve quickly is that I never waste an opportunity to improve. But in order to do that you need clear feedback.

Aggregate scoring is the least helpful for that.

[MickAK]

Try your warmup with the time parameters I suggested. They’re not very stringent but you can highlight weaknesses that are out of proportion to the others.

Those times aren't an issue for me. The point of the drill for me is the focus on a wide range of mechanics in a set round count. There's nothing to be gained from adding time pressure. It would detract from the point of the drill/assessment.

It's Tee-ball, sure, fair enough. Do 300 burpees and 300 kettlebell swings first, and Tee-ball gets a lot harder. There are other, and IMO more applicable ways to induce stress than a timer on every drill.

Generally I agree with your assessment that people criticizing speed are doing it from a point of weakness and/or cope but I can't agree with you on this one. Sometimes working mechanics and just mechanics is enough.

[JCN]

I don't necessarily disagree with the basic premise of this thread. Not a huge fan of Dot Torture anyway.

But I am intrigued by JCN's constant "biases" for lack of a better term, presupposing that everyone should be on the same path he is.

I'm one of those people who has taken tons of "tactical" classes. I don't shoot USPSA, but I am rated Expert in most IDPA divisions. Not sure what that might equate to in USPSA. Don't much care. Whatever.

But I don't take "tactical classes" to become a GM level USPSA shooter.

Skills I have learned in classes that are sort of incongruent with USPSA shooting include:

1. Shooting safely around others.
2. Clearing a room/structure.
3. Shooting in low-light/no light scenarios
4. PROPER use of cover (no fault lines in real life)
5. Shooting in/around/from vehicles
6. Shooting from retention (there's no way you have a retention position built in to your sub-second draw).
7. Shooting while entangled with others
8. WHEN to draw/when to shoot (legally)
9. "Tactical anatomy" (for lack of a better term).
10. Target discrimination

Among others....

Hopefully you get the idea. SOME of us take "tactical classes" because we are more interested (and have more use for) the application of marksmanship in much more dynamic environments (such as real life would provide) than are offered in matches. I shoot matches to work on the skills that matches can assist with, and to just have fun (imagine that). I don't have the curiosity to do the things you suggest because they do not apply to me.

Maybe you should take A class and see what it's like before you essentially accuse people of wasting their money (Bolke and Dobbs would be a great start!). At least that's what I inferred from some of your comments here and in other threads.

I think that’s a good question and deserves some clarification.

Do special forces units hire USPSA GMs for their tactics?
No.

Do they hire them? Yes.

I would absolutely take a non-shooting shooting class to learn the tactical side.

From the pure shooting aspect, this is something you might not want to hear and might not accept as truth.

But the more automaticity you have in shooting ability, the easier it is to do the things you’re listing at a higher level.

The ability to know if you can hit a target at what distance at what speed comes from that.

As an aside, I do practice shooting retention and revolver shooting from inside concealment.

Just because I’m good at USPSA stuff doesn’t mean I don’t do other stuff too. Around vehicles, low / no light. Etc.

And I can tell you the better I am at simple stuff, the better I am at complicated stuff. That seems to be an accepted caveat of tactical trainers. Where we differ might be “how much skill is acceptable.”

My view is why not get as good as you can within the time and resources you can? You can spend 10 min on Dot Torture untimed or 10 min spent timed with string and component tracking. Consistent feedback is crucial to improvement and doesn’t take any additional training time so why wouldn’t you.


The only thing that I remember about this subject is that when I shot a DT last I was shooting everything, including USPSA, with my irons sighted carry gun and I couldn't clean it at 7 yards.

That’s why I think 3 yards is actually more useful in order to get feedback in the ballpark of the skill.

[JCN]

Those times aren't an issue for me. The point of the drill for me is the focus on a wide range of mechanics in a set round count. There's nothing to be gained from adding time pressure. It would detract from the point of the drill/assessment.

It's Tee-ball, sure, fair enough. Do 300 burpees and 300 kettlebell swings first, and Tee-ball gets a lot harder. There are other, and IMO more applicable ways to induce stress than a timer on every drill.

Generally I agree with your assessment that people criticizing speed are doing it from a point of weakness and/or cope but I can't agree with you on this one. Sometimes working mechanics and just mechanics is enough.

Completely disagree with “nothing to be gained.”

Otherwise there’s no point in transitions on the drill. Or reloads with no time pressure.

If it’s a marksmanship drill, do 25 yard B8 black for 50 shots or 10 shots in a 1” circle at 5 yards. But transitions without a time parameter is just shooting the same target without a transition at all. Same thing with no time reload. You might as well count the time you reloaded your gun yesterday.

You could run the whole dot torture in dry with a timer a few times per week and be better off in a month.

[JCN]

I don't shoot USPSA, but I am rated Expert in most IDPA divisions. Not sure what that might equate to in USPSA.

This is the John Hearne chart

76145

Expert is like B-level.

Respectable but often still with disconnect of gauging ability at speed with shots that don’t end up where they wanted or thought they would go. Often with hesitation and conscious thought required to execute some things smoothly.

[BehindBlueI's]

But the more automaticity you have in shooting ability, the easier it is to do the things you’re listing at a higher level.


I see this keeps popping up and I'm not sure where it's coming from, but it's backward. Your brain will prioritize those "other things" regardless of your ability to subconsciously execute with the handgun. Running the gun is what will be relegated to subconscious levels under survival pressure.

"I couldn't make the shoot/no-shoot decision because I was too focused on my trigger press" is simply not a thing. It's the opposite, which is why subconscious ability to execute the physical skills is important.

[43Under]

This is the John Hearne chart

76145

Expert is like B-level.

Respectable but often still with disconnect of gauging ability at speed with shots that don’t end up where they wanted or thought they would go. Often with hesitation and conscious thought required to execute some things smoothly.

Sounds about right. Although I must say that I love John Hearne but I think certain aspects of the chart are questionable. (Certainly better than I'd ever create, so kudos to John for making it). But by way of example, at the time I was still a Sharpshooter in IDPA I also shot a 13.75 Casino (clean) in Givens' Instructor class, where I was also Top Gun of the class. So I think I have what we call in education a "scattering of skills" in some areas.

Regarding the classes from my earlier post (and your reply), I mostly agree. And sometimes I forget that there are other types of classes out there, such as those taught by some of the top gamers out there.

I think one reason people may take a lot of those classes and still struggle in competition is that they take the class to take the class but don't necessarily do the homework. I've been guilty of that at times, and I'm sure most people are, at least sometimes. Some people take classes just to have a weekend away from the family, after all!

[JCN]

I see this keeps popping up and I'm not sure where it's coming from, but it's backward. Your brain will prioritize those "other things" regardless of your ability to subconsciously execute with the handgun. Running the gun is what will be relegated to subconscious levels under survival pressure.

"I couldn't make the shoot/no-shoot decision because I was too focused on my trigger press" is simply not a thing. It's the opposite, which is why subconscious ability to execute the physical skills is important.

How about “I didn’t realize my gun was empty” because all the bandwidth was sucked up.
Or “I couldn’t reload my magazine or reloaded it backwards” because it wasn’t well trained enough.

It’s the issue that when the gun or shots don’t go as expected that it fucks their OODA loop and they shift their conscious attention to it rather than solving it automatically.

It also leads to people shooting at things they shouldn’t shoot at because they aren’t able to judge their own abilities accurately.

Do you really not know where this is coming from?




Two years later, I am even more convinced of the need to have high levels of automaticity/hardwiring in basic gun skills to free the mind to solve the problem. The more I study this, the more I realize we have far less mental resources than we think, especially as stress drives towards the emotional side of the brain. You need to be thinking about solving the problem not running the gun.

I am also convinced that you develop positive or negative feedback loops. As one's skill improves, one's confidence increases, and one becomes more likely to stay in the rational portion of the brain.

Most recent research nugget is this. Experts and novices deliver the same skill from different parts of their brain. The experts seem to be delivering it from areas that reflect higher levels of "permanence" and I suspect, areas that are less vulnerable to the effects of stress.

And a response to his quote:


I obviously agree....:cool: we just needed a genius in our midst to put the whole thing together. We need to talk on the different part of the brain thing.......I have a hypothesis I want to run by you. If it sounds logical to you, I will make some phone calls to "those guys" and get some confirmation.

[YVK]

That’s why I think 3 yards is actually more useful in order to get feedback in the ballpark of the skill.

Three yards is a very basic level. I cleaned it at 3 yards on demand (in Todd's class) on my second attempt ever with iron sighted G19 when I was a C with a 6+ sec FAST shot in that same class. Failing it at 3 does provide some feedback about skill level, passing not so much.
The way I remember, it was meant to be a continuum. Clear it at 3 - go check if your fundamentals are still good at 5. Good at 5, shoot at 7. By then it became a formidable task, considering we all shot irons with regular triggers then.

[JCN]

Three yards is a very basic level. I cleaned it at 3 yards on demand (in Todd's class) on my second attempt ever with iron sighted G19 when I was a C with a 6+ sec FAST shot in that same class. Failing it at 3 does provide some feedback about skill level, passing not so much.
The way I remember, it was meant to be a continuum. Clear it at 3 - go check if your fundamentals are still good at 5. Good at 5, shoot at 7. By then it became a formidable task, considering we all shot irons with regular triggers then.

No, shoot it at 3 yards timed and push the timing. Most people A level and below will struggle with a lot of misses at 7 yards.

Shoot at 3 and work on the speed. Then work on the accuracy. Then work on the speed. Then work on the accuracy.

[BehindBlueI's]

How about “I didn’t realize my gun was empty” because all the bandwidth was sucked up.
Or “I couldn’t reload my magazine or reloaded it backwards” because it wasn’t well trained enough.




Exactly. The physical skills of gun-handling get pushed to subconscious levels *because* the brain is too busy with the OODA loop of the situation. If you can't execute those things well subconsciously (or automatically if you prefer), you will likely screw it up due to having no computing power left to do it at the conscious level.

That's the opposite of "you'll make bad decisions because you were too focused on gun handling". No. "You'll suck at gun handling because you were too focused on decisions" is the correct order.

[JCN]

If people are honest…

Doesn’t the dot torture just basically tell you that you should do more weak hand practice?

If you had 10 min to do Dot Torture, if you’re honest with yourself shouldn’t you just spend 10 min on your week hand?

Personally I spend about 1/3 of my dry practice weak hand only.

[David S.]

Steve Anderson teaches three modes of training. Accuracy Mode, Speed Mode and Match Mode. If you file Dot Torture under Accuracy Mode training, I think it makes a lot of sense.

I’m certainly not questioning your skills. You’re far more skilled than I am because you choose to dedicate more time and effort to developing it. I’m sincerely impressed. I ask because your comments don’t line up with what I have seen in my couple hundred hours spent with many of the instructors commonly recommended on P-F.

-I haven’t seen anybody who considers Dot Torture as a panacea drill. Dot Torture is useful because most shooters can’t clean it at three yards, let alone further or under a time standard. It evaluates a variety of skills, not just the stuff in the shooters comfort zone. Is a USPSA stage better? Sure, but it requires more investment and can’t be done in my local indoor range.
-Reloads are a significant part of FAST and Casino Drill, and you probably need a spicy reload if you want to get in the record books, but neither TLG or Tom Givens spent/spends more than, say, 10% of their class teaching reloads. In my experience, no other P-F recommended instructor does either.
-Every instructor’s primary drills have some sort of time standard. They may not be impressive by USPSA standards, but they’re accessible to the other 80% who, for whatever reason aren’t going to dedicate the resources to become A class or better. Standards like Rangemaster ASP, CSAT, etc. are based on a ton of research on what it takes to survive a violent encounter. Most “defensive” standards are based on the Pareto Principle. USPSA/IDPA is all about going beyond that.
-To a man/women, every instructor I’ve ever trained with recommends competition as a way to go beyond the skill levels they teach to.

Again. Mad respect for getting in the top 5% of shooters. It seems I’m just not seeing what you’re seeing in the pro training circuit.

[JCN]

Exactly. The physical skills of gun-handling get pushed to subconscious levels *because* the brain is too busy with the OODA loop of the situation. If you can't execute those things well subconsciously (or automatically if you prefer), you will likely screw it up due to having no computing power left to do it at the conscious level.

That's the opposite of "you'll make bad decisions because you were too focused on gun handling". No. "You'll suck at gun handling because you were too focused on decisions" is the correct order.

I think we are saying the same thing.

I would never suggest people would make bad decisions because too focused on gun handling, unless it’s lack of appropriate shots for their skill level or because their focus shifted to a malfunction and took them out of the fight.

Someone who sprays 15 shots in the general direction of an assailant had their gun handling pushed to subconscious.

But I would say those are bad decisions even if they’re not conscious. An error of omission rather than commission if you will. Bad judgement would probably be a better term than bad decision.

Does that make sense?

EDIT: here’s an example that I’ll bet you also have a real life example of.
B class shooter goes through a USPSA stage. There’s one target with a kind of round single hole. You ask him, “did you double that target (two in the same hole) or did you miss it with the second shot? They say “I have no idea.” They were shooting subconsciously but not competently. That’s bad judgement and misses and no shoots happen.

M class shooter goes through the same stage. Same scenario. They know exactly if it was a double versus a miss because of how it felt and can recall it even though it happened “automatically.”

BJ Baldwin in the Vegas shooting knew he “got all his hits” and was able to call his shots even at distance while taking fire and using cover. And after it was reviewed it turned out yes. He didn’t miss at all.

[JCN]

Steve Anderson teaches three modes of training. Accuracy Mode, Speed Mode and Match Mode. If you file Dot Torture under Accuracy Mode training, I think it makes a lot of sense.

I’m certainly not questioning your skills. You’re far more skilled than I am because you choose to dedicate more time and effort to developing it. I’m sincerely impressed. I ask because your comments don’t line up with what I have seen in my couple hundred hours spent with many of the instructors commonly recommended on P-F.

-I haven’t seen anybody who considers Dot Torture as a panacea drill. Dot Torture is useful because most shooters can’t clean it at three yards, let alone further or under a time standard. It evaluates a variety of skills, not just the stuff in the shooters comfort zone. Is a USPSA stage better? Sure, but it requires more investment and can’t be done in my local indoor range.
-Reloads are a significant part of FAST and Casino Drill, and you probably need a spicy reload if you want to get in the record books, but neither TLG or Tom Givens spent/spends more than, say, 10% of their class teaching reloads. In my experience, no other P-F recommended instructor does either.
-Every instructor’s primary drills have some sort of time standard. They may not be impressive by USPSA standards, but they’re accessible to the other 80% who, for whatever reason aren’t going to dedicate the resources to become A class or better. Standards like Rangemaster ASP, CSAT, etc. are based on a ton of research on what it takes to survive a violent encounter. Most “defensive” standards are based on the Pareto Principle. USPSA/IDPA is all about going beyond that.
-To a man/women, every instructor I’ve ever trained with recommends competition as a way to go beyond the skill levels they teach to.

Again. Mad respect for getting in the top 5% of shooters. It seems I’m just not seeing what you’re seeing in the pro training circuit.

I thank you for that. I feel like the signal may be a little crossed.

For the most basic of shooters who can’t clean it at 3 yards, it’s Tee ball. Still useful for that purpose as an Accuracy drill because their accuracy is poor. Like YVK said, he was cleaning it at 3 yards as a C class.

But for people who are past basic basic, it’s actually more useful to run it as a Match Mode drill.

How fast can you go while staying within your skill set?

That judgement of what you can and cannot do is very important and should start to be taken on past the C shooter level IMO.

It’s one of the reasons that Hit Factor scoring for the Bakersfield PD COF bred excellent gunfighters. In his own words it let the individual officers solve their own time versus accuracy problem.

We are saying the same thing as well.

Untimed draws and reloads are counterproductive on an accuracy drill.

[BehindBlueI's]

I think we are saying the same thing.

I would never suggest people would make bad decisions because too focused on gun handling, unless it’s lack of appropriate shots for their skill level or because their focus shifted to a malfunction and took them out of the fight.

Someone who sprays 15 shots in the general direction of an assailant had their gun handling pushed to subconscious.

But I would say those are bad decisions even if they’re not conscious. An error of omission rather than commission if you will. Bad judgement would probably be a better term than bad decision.

Does that make sense?

I think we're breaking down at the "decision" part. I'm talking the "D" in OODA. I'm at the end of a pursuit. A guy charges at me with a machete, which we'll call a stimulus. I've observed this stimulus, I've oriented myself to the new reality this stimulus creates, now I'm deciding what to do about this new reality, then I'm acting on my decision. You seem to be putting a "mini-D" (yes, I see it now that it's in print) in the "A" part of OODA as far as to how many shots to fire, etc. I disagree that being better at gun handling will impact those decisions. Once you get into what DB called "fear biting" *neither* gun handling nor decision making is being handled at the conscious level.

"But the more automaticity you have in shooting ability, the easier it is to do the things..." being the statement I responded to. I think we're in agreement that subconscious capability with the handgun is important (although we may differ on where diminishing returns set in, but meh). What I'm saying is I think that statement is backward. You will not be better at OOD because you're better at A. You may be better at A because you're better at OOD and have more conscious processing power to dedicate to A but I wouldn't count on it.

So, basically: At no point does gun handling override OODA, but OODA can override gun handling, and at some point neither is functioning properly.

[HCM]

No, shoot it at 3 yards timed and push the timing. Most people A level and below will struggle with a lot of misses at 7 yards.

Shoot at 3 and work on the speed. Then work on the accuracy. Then work on the speed. Then work on the accuracy.

You are demonstrating the same bias for your strength (speed) that you mentioned as holding others back. You mentioned having a background in “top programs”which I’m assuming means Sports / athletic coaching ?

Stage planning aside, some of the biggest areas of potential gain in USPSA are movement and transitions. Dot torture has no movement and the only transitions are close.

There is definitely a factor of athleticism vs mechanics of shooting with athleticism probably being the area with the most potential gains. In terms of USPA, many including me would likely benefit from shooting less and spending more time and money on an personal athletic trainer.

The stuff you are talking about working is worth working on but DT is not an optimal tool to do it.

[JCN]

I think we're breaking down at the "decision" part. I'm talking the "D" in OODA. I'm at the end of a pursuit. A guy charges at me with a machete, which we'll call a stimulus. I've observed this stimulus, I've oriented myself to the new reality this stimulus creates, now I'm deciding what to do about this new reality, then I'm acting on my decision. You seem to be putting a "mini-D" (yes, I see it now that it's in print) in the "A" part of OODA as far as to how many shots to fire, etc. I disagree that being better at gun handling will impact those decisions. Once you get into what DB called "fear biting" *neither* gun handling nor decision making is being handled at the conscious level.

"But the more automaticity you have in shooting ability, the easier it is to do the things..." being the statement I responded to. I think we're in agreement that subconscious capability with the handgun is important (although we may differ on where diminishing returns set in, but meh). What I'm saying is I think that statement is backward. You will not be better at OOD because you're better at A. You may be better at A because you're better at OOD and have more conscious processing power to dedicate to A but I wouldn't count on it.

So, basically: At no point does gun handling override OODA, but OODA can override gun handling, and at some point neither is functioning properly.

I think this is an interesting discussion and I’m keen on discussing it (and not just us talking at each other). You have a broad knowledge base for real life shootings and I’d like to tap into that.

I think using specific examples is helpful because then we are not coming with perhaps different definitions of terms.

One of Hearne’s points is that if you have more automaticity, it also adds stress resistance.

That’s part of my critical point here as well.

Let’s take the machete guy. Since it was a pursuit, I’m assuming that the gun is in your hand.
He’s 10 yards away when he starts charging.

For me, that’s far enough away that if the gun is in my hands, I can put 2-4 shots in his head with high confidence by the time he gets within chopping distance. It doesn’t get to the point of “Oh fuck I’m fucked.”

For a B class shooter, he immediately goes into “oh fuck oh fuck!” mode at 10 yards because they don’t know if they can stop machete guy with body shots from getting to them with the blade (even if eventually it stops the fight, that doesn’t help if both parties are mortally wounded).

What if machete guy is within 3 feet and my gun is holstered?

I’m going into “I’m fucked I’m fucked” panic mode same as the B class shooter.

[Kirk]

If people are honest…

Doesn’t the dot torture just basically tell you that you should do more weak hand practice?

If you had 10 min to do Dot Torture, if you’re honest with yourself shouldn’t you just spend 10 min on your week hand?

Personally I spend about 1/3 of my dry practice weak hand only.

Having spent way too much time doing bullseye type drills in the past, I can do very well out to 10 yards with a carry gun/dot, but yes, the weak hand portion is undoubtedly the killer. The WHO at distance is proportionally much more difficult than the other strings and acts as a limiter, at least for me. I haven't cleaned it at 10 yet because I still drop a couple of WHO (and 1-2 misses somewhere else).

[JCN]

You are demonstrating the same bias for your strength (speed) that you mentioned as holding others back. You mentioned having a background in “top programs”which I’m assuming means Sports / athletic coaching ?

Stage planning aside, some of the biggest areas of potential gain in USPSA are movement and transitions. Dot torture has no movement and the only transitions are close.

There is definitely a factor of athleticism vs mechanics of shooting with athleticism probably being the area with the most potential gains.

The stuff you are talking about working is worth working on but DT is not an optimal tool to do it.

Ironically, accuracy is actually my strength.


https://youtu.be/TYSYp6580oc

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And yes on dot torture not having any movement and only mild transitions.

Which is actually one of the reasons to do it up close. You saw on some of my videos that you can scale a pretty decent transition if you move it close. But if you’re going close, you can’t take forever. Why not try to take advantage of what you can? Indoor ranges are limiting but I still work on transitions there. I also move around in my stall, lol.

[MickAK]

One of Hearne’s points is that if you have more automaticity, it also adds stress resistance.


I think there's other, potentially better ways of adding stress resistance past a certain point other than incremental improvement on a timer.

If you have NF land nearby, try going on a strenuous hike with a lot of elevation and rough country then without catching your breath staple up a DT target and run it clean.

Suddenly the ball on the tee isn't as easy.

If you don't have an area to do that, simple cardio followed by curls until you can't hold onto the dumbbells works similarly. There's no good way to simulate the stress of a fight, but physical pain is a half decent substitute.

Of course the key is 'past a certain point' and I don't have a good answer for where that is.

[JCN]

I think we're breaking down at the "decision" part. I'm talking the "D" in OODA. I'm at the end of a pursuit. A guy charges at me with a machete, which we'll call a stimulus. I've observed this stimulus, I've oriented myself to the new reality this stimulus creates, now I'm deciding what to do about this new reality, then I'm acting on my decision. You seem to be putting a "mini-D" (yes, I see it now that it's in print) in the "A" part of OODA as far as to how many shots to fire, etc. I disagree that being better at gun handling will impact those decisions. Once you get into what DB called "fear biting" *neither* gun handling nor decision making is being handled at the conscious level.

As further discussion, I’ll again make the point that Hearne makes about more automaticity and skill being more fear and emotion resistant so as to not devolve into the “fear biting” quite as soon.

When “Shootin Newton” (the competition shooting female officer in California) was being approached with the box cutter wielding assailant on meth, she did not panic and just executed within her rational brain.

There are some anecdotal observations that I have had.

I used to race cars at a National level. Like anyone who has raced, I’ve gone off track or been forced off track or had equipment malfunction (brakes) at speed. Having a lot of skill does help stave off panic and helps you just stay within the physical limits. I imagine this is akin to what happens in other potentially imminently life threatening incidents and supports Hearne’s hypothesis.

This next example is cheesy and it might not hold. So take it with a grain of salt. I had to take a holster class in order to draw from the holster at the range.

I was nursing my sprained right wrist so I flipped a holster and did the course left handed.

The final exercise he wouldn’t tell us what it was. Just “draw and shoot five shots on target when I give you the signal.”

Then he started electronically moving the target forward and backwards. We all ran the drill separately so we couldn’t see what the drill was.

He basically did a version of the Tuller drill and when he gave the signal, he advanced the target at us at full speed.

The target was a legal paper sized target. Most other students came back white as a sheet and with a target that looked like buckshot. Many, many misses.

For my turn, when he gave the command and ran the target at me my first thought was “oh, that’s the drill, eh?” Then quick assessment of the distance and time math, cross checked with my left handed abilities and I made the decision that head shots were well within my ability.

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The five shots in that drill were the head shots.

Now I am NOT saying I’d be that cool if that were happening in real life. Especially if the bad guy had a gun.

I am not saying that at all. But the level of stress resistance and execution was noticeably different between students.

The instructor told the class “there’s one person in this class that I would probably lose in a gunfight to, and I don’t say that often.”

Then I told him I wasn’t left handed.

[JCN]

I think there's other, potentially better ways of adding stress resistance past a certain point other than incremental improvement on a timer.

If you have NF land nearby, try going on a strenuous hike with a lot of elevation and rough country then without catching your breath staple up a DT target and run it clean.

Suddenly the ball on the tee isn't as easy.

If you don't have an area to do that, simple cardio followed by curls until you can't hold onto the dumbbells works similarly. There's no good way to simulate the stress of a fight, but physical pain is a half decent substitute.

Of course the key is 'past a certain point' and I don't have a good answer for where that is.

But then you get to the land of the straw man.

I’m talking about improving what you can improve at the gun range with the same amount of time if you put in more attention.

I could ask someone to kick me in the balls while I’m on the firing line, but if I can’t shoot it standing there I’m not going to be able to do it with a sore scrotum.

In the land of the civilian straw man, people would be better off eating a salad and quitting tobacco than any gun training or tactical training at all. Or avoid high risk activities, motorcycles, ATV, convertibles, etc.

There are plenty of non-self defense things we can do to improve our survival and quality of life.

But you could go on that forever.

I’m not saying that GM is necessary. It’s not. But there probably is a minimum competency speed.

From the Hearne chart I’d probably pick Dot Torture times that correspond to B level shooting.

C level I think isn’t automatic enough.

[MickAK]

But then you get to the land of the straw man.

I’m talking about improving what you can improve at the gun range with the same amount of time if you put in more attention.

I could ask someone to kick me in the balls while I’m on the firing line, but if I can’t shoot it standing there I’m not going to be able to do it with a sore scrotum.


I'm not seeing a straw man. If you can't do something when you're out of breath your automaticity is lacking and I think that's worth working on.

Of course, if you don't hammer yourself in the balls with your base plate before every reload we're just not on the same level.

[Jared]

No less of a USPSA GM than Ben Stoeger had entries in his training journal on Brian Enos forum about shooting Dot Torture fairly regularly. There are also untimed accuracy focused drills in the vast majority of his books, including the latest one “Practical Shooting Training.”

So if untimed drills are Tee Ball, it would seem that Mr. Stoeger sees some value in playing Tee Ball from time to time.

I don’t think untimed accuracy only drills should be the only focus of your training, but if I’m picking USPSA GMs to listen to, I kinda think Ben would be one that would know what he’s talking about. I mean, dude has won one or two big matches.

[BWT]

So,

I think where the Dot Torture shines is evaluating different skills and highlighting things you need to work on and/or evaluate new shooters.

I’ve probably shot it a grand total of 5-6 times at a range. But I did use it to acquaint myself with an RDS testing different skills recently and just familiarize myself.

I also think it was nice in ranges where they won’t let you draw or shoot fast, etc.

I think the reality is if you’re used to shooting B8’s and Silhouette targets at a range a few time a year only. It’ll push you and highlight areas you need to work on versus doing two handed only shooting and reloading from the bench with no pressure, etc. anyone I’ve ever had shoot it that was a casual shooter shot under a 30-ish out of 50.

That being said - if you shoot any action sports and/or training and pushing yourself semi regularly. It’s nothing crazy.

I’ll say this I’ve never cleaned it. A few 47-48 out of 50’s.

Back before kids when I wasn’t competing anymore but doing Jiu Jitsu regularly. I’d do a dot torture, Baer drill, and use 3x5 note cards at 10, 15, and 20 yards, etc.

Shooting at a range became very underwhelming after shooting Carbine and 2-gun matches. It was a way to keep things interesting.

I do appreciate the discussion though.

[JCN]

I'm not seeing a straw man. If you can't do something when you're out of breath your automaticity is lacking and I think that's worth working on.

Of course, if you don't hammer yourself in the balls with your base plate before every reload we're just not on the same level.

I got a chuckle out of that. :D I have narded myself in the past.

The straw man is that if someone already can’t do it without physical xyz, they can’t do it with the extra assault.

So while after a point (maybe B level) physical work is probably more important, not having any idea where you’re at and staying at C/D may benefit from working more on their gun handling.

It’s like the example of the Tuller in the range. The not good students couldn’t hit the target without stress and they fell apart worse with stress. They needed some Tee ball time.


Kirk had the example of weak hand being his nemesis at distance without time.

I printed out the Dot Torture sheet and if you take all time parameter out of it:

You basically have 40 freestyle on a 2” circle.
5 strong and 5 weak.

At ANY distance the weak link is going to be the weak hand.

So why is it 40 rounds of freestyle?

Shouldn’t it be 40 rounds of weak hand?

Or 30 weak, 20 strong and 10 freestyle.

But….

If you put a time parameter on it, now you can test and work on draws, reloads, transitions.
And you can now also scale difficulty by time.

For example if you had 0.40 splits for freestyle, 0.60 splits for strong hand and 0.80 splits for weak hand you’ve now made the drill similarly difficult for all types of shooting at a particular distance.

The untimed Dot Torture just alludes to the promise of timing to get the benefit.

Otherwise it’s just a weak hand failure drill.

[JCN]

No less of a USPSA GM than Ben Stoeger had entries in his training journal on Brian Enos forum about shooting Dot Torture fairly regularly. There are also untimed accuracy focused drills in the vast majority of his books, including the latest one “Practical Shooting Training.”

So if untimed drills are Tee Ball, it would seem that Mr. Stoeger sees some value in playing Tee Ball from time to time.

I don’t think untimed accuracy only drills should be the only focus of your training, but if I’m picking USPSA GMs to listen to, I kinda think Ben would be one that would know what he’s talking about. I mean, dude has won one or two big matches.

For sure. I agree with all of your points.
I do untimed accuracy drills.

But you might want to check with Ben what he means by “dots.”

IIRC it’s a very different drill.

Too bad he was banned from PF so he can’t chime in. :D

The traditional Stoeger dots is the Garcia version unless I am mistaken which I could be.

https://www.benstoeger.com/livefire-drill-the-dots

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(Note it still has a time parameter)

The other point to note is that I’m not saying untimed accuracy isn’t useful. It is.

But untimed draws and reloads are a waste of training time unless you’re super basic, IMO.

If you even loosely keep track of the time and give yourself some incentive you’ll improve.

[Jared]

For sure. I agree with all of your points.
I do untimed accuracy drills.

But you might want to check with Ben what he means by “dots.”

IIRC it’s a very different drill.

Too bad he was banned from PF so he can’t chime in. :D

The traditional Stoeger dots is the Garcia version unless I am mistaken which I could be.

https://www.benstoeger.com/livefire-drill-the-dots

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(Note it still has a time parameter)

No, I am specifically referring to him referring to Dot Torture, not the Garcia Dots, in his training journal on Brian Enos forum. I have no idea if the thread still exists or not. I did read a lot of it when I was interested in USPSA back 7-8 years ago. Reason I remember it so well was 2 reasons:

1: he mentioned learning of the drill from pistol-training.com (post was dated before Ben joined PF)

2: he said “I have become a terrorist at Dot Torture.” He was referring to his ability to clean the drill at 7 yards and beyond.

I’ve shot the Garcia Dots also, as I learned that drill from Ben’s earlier books. Seems like I remember on one of his podcasts, circa roughly 2014, where he said if he was even more ammo limited than he was, he’d likely make the Garcia Dots his primary focus in live fire training.

[JCN]

No, I am specifically referring to him referring to Dot Torture, not the Garcia Dots, in his training journal on Brian Enos forum. I have no idea if the thread still exists or not. I did read a lot of it when I was interested in USPSA back 7-8 years ago. Reason I remember it so well was 2 reasons:

1: he mentioned learning of the drill from pistol-training.com (post was dated before Ben joined PF)

2: he said “I have become a terrorist at Dot Torture.” He was referring to his ability to clean the drill at 7 yards and beyond.

I’ve shot the Garcia Dots also, as I learned that drill from Ben’s earlier books. Seems like I remember on one of his podcasts, circa roughly 2014, where he said if he was even more ammo limited than he was, he’d likely make the Garcia Dots his primary focus in live fire training.

If he doesn’t specifically recommend untimed draws and reloads in his book to anyone more than basic these days maybe he currently doesn’t feel like that’s so useful?

[Jared]

If he doesn’t specifically recommend untimed draws and reloads in his book to anyone more than basic these days maybe he currently doesn’t feel like that’s so useful?

I don’t think anyone is arguing that DT will give you a sub second draw. DT is a marksmanship test that has some gunhandling elements included. Nothing more, nothing less. I haven’t shot DT in a year or so. When I shoot it, I shoot it as a trigger control test and that’s the part I’m concerned with. Hell, sometimes I shoot it with guns I don’t even have a holster for, just start at low ready.

I think you’re way too wrapped around the axle about the fact that it’s an untimed drill that includes a few basic gun handling elements. Nobody is saying it’s the “be all end all” of drills. Nobody is claiming that a clean DT means you can smoke a USPSA GM at Nationals. It is what it is, a 50 round test of marksmanship fundamentals. No more, no less.

On the other hand, it does draw something of a line:

If you can’t execute these skills untimed, maybe now isn’t the time to add a bunch of time pressure. If you can clean it on demand at 5 yards (for example) your fundamentals are probably sound enough that it’s time to add some time pressure to those draws/reloads/transitions in order to develop further. So sure, it’s probably a basic drill. Who cares? Everyone has to start somewhere and a lot of people (myself definitely included) find that going back to the fundamentals from time to time is beneficial.

[David S.]

Untimed draws and reloads are counterproductive on an accuracy drill.

Untimed, or rather not “grading” time, is the very definition of Accuracy Mode. (again, Steve Anderson’s version)

There are people out there that aren’t as motivated as you and never will be. They’re not showing up to classes or a USPSA match. They rent a lane at a local Fudd range that doesn’t allow rapid fire or drawing from a holster. They are proud they can keep most of their 50 rounds inside a B-27. What’s a shot timer? This is the vast majority of shooters, and untimed Dot Torture is valuable for them.

I’ll agree that the drills value diminishes significantly once the shooter is at, say, B class, but I suspect less than one or two percent of shooters are capable of shooting at a B class level, so…….

[JCN]

Jared this is from Stoeger’s 2018 book:

Training Myths:
Do “Perfect Reps”
I think it is fair to say the idea that you need to make every repetition of your training “perfect” in order to advance is totally false… if you want to get better, you have to challenge yourself.

Work on Accuracy, Speed Will Come
…I have known many people that have done a substantial amount of training without any sort of time pressure. They just go out and work on hitting the target in the center every time. Guess what? They don’t get faster…. If you want to be fast AND accurate, then you need to train with a time element.

And…

Marksmanship Drills
I am always looking to improve my accuracy at speed…. This is why I devote so much training time to making tough shots under time pressure.

[JCN]

If you can’t execute these skills untimed, maybe now isn’t the time to add a bunch of time pressure. If you can clean it on demand at 5 yards (for example) your fundamentals are probably sound enough that it’s time to add some time pressure to those draws/reloads/transitions in order to develop further. So sure, it’s probably a basic drill. Who cares? Everyone has to start somewhere and a lot of people (myself definitely included) find that going back to the fundamentals from time to time is beneficial.

Yes. I have no problem with my 4 year old using training wheels. Or using a tee if she plays baseball.

It can be a valuable starting point.


Untimed, or rather not “grading” time, is the very definition of Accuracy Mode. (again, Steve Anderson’s version)

There are people out there that aren’t as motivated as you and never will be. They’re not showing up to classes or a USPSA match. They rent a lane at a local Fudd range that doesn’t allow rapid fire or drawing from a holster. They are proud they can keep most of their 50 rounds inside a B-27. What’s a shot timer? This is the vast majority of shooters, and untimed Dot Torture is valuable for them.

I’ll agree that the drills value diminishes significantly once the shooter is at, say, B class, but I suspect less than one or two percent of shooters are capable of shooting at a B class level, so…….

Yes, Tee ball! It’s appropriate for that level of shooter.

Let me tell you why untimed draws and reloads are harmful for anyone but the very most basic.

You wind up burning in apprehension and grinding the speed to a halt. You burn in a segmented and stilted draw and reload. Why would you try and push any kind of speed at all if it could cost you accuracy. So you wind up practicing a non-functional draw and never learn how to hit it as an extension of a speed / accuracy math problem.

You create an incongruous situation where instead of a draw and hit having an urgency, you de-escalate the draw and reload to not compromise the static shot.

I would rather have someone do Garcia dots rather than Dot Torture. And have them do strong and weak strings separately, tracking distance with each style.

[David S.]

Cool

[Jared]

Jared this is from Stoeger’s 2018 book:

Training Myths:
Do “Perfect Reps”
I think it is fair to say the idea that you need to make every repetition of your training “perfect” in order to advance is totally false… if you want to get better, you have to challenge yourself.

Work on Accuracy, Speed Will Come
…I have known many people that have done a substantial amount of training without any sort of time pressure. They just go out and work on hitting the target in the center every time. Guess what? They don’t get faster…. If you want to be fast AND accurate, then you need to train with a time element.

And…

Marksmanship Drills
I am always looking to improve my accuracy at speed…. This is why I devote so much training time to making tough shots under time pressure.

Notice he also doesn’t say “you should never fire a shot unless there’s a timer around” or “group shooting is a waste of time”? On page 233 of his latest book, in the level 4 section, Ben has a drill called Marksmanship Fundamentals that specifically calls for no time pressure.

I fully understand that in order to excel at USPSA one must push the time element. I did it myself when I was shooting matches and dry firing every day. I also fully understand that there’s a time to work on pure accuracy without a time limit.

You may have the last word now, as I have said my piece.

[JCN]

Notice he also doesn’t say “you should never fire a shot unless there’s a timer around” or “group shooting is a waste of time”? On page 233 of his latest book, in the level 4 section, Ben has a drill called Marksmanship Fundamentals that specifically calls for no time pressure.

I fully understand that in order to excel at USPSA one must push the time element. I did it myself when I was shooting matches and dry firing every day. I also fully understand that there’s a time to work on pure accuracy without a time limit.

You may have the last word now, as I have said my piece.

Notice also I’m not saying “you should never fire a shot unless there’s a timer around” or “group shooting is a waste of time” either. I’m sorry if that’s how you took it!

The shooting part of the dot torture test is fine. 40 rounds on one 2” dot at whatever distance and speed. Then 5 weak and 5 strong. That’s the same as an untimed dot torture and doesn’t build in hesitancy or nonfunctional draw and reload aspects.

As a pass / fail test you might as well just shoot the 5 weak first and move the the distance up until you can do that. That’s the limiting factor on this drill if just don’t let on distance without a graded time difference between freestyle and weak.

Also note that my stance for weak hand would be very different for untimed accuracy versus recoil management.

I would shoot the whole COF like a bullseye shooter with deep breaths and resting between each shot.

[jetfire]

Professional baseball players still hit off a tee when working on certain specific skills

[JCN]

Professional baseball players still hit off a tee when working on certain specific skills

Yes! Just like using untimed accuracy to work on something specific.

But they don’t stop there.

[JCN]

jetfire that was a perfect point.

https://blog.tannertees.com/hitting-articles/how-youth-amateur-and-pro-hitters-use-batting-tees.html

It is a perfect analogy.

The tee is a bridge to something. Not an end goal.

People who never aspire to get to actual thrown balls will stay tee ball players forever.

Once you get to 3 yards of Dot Torture clean, might be time to start working in some slow pitches.

[03RN]

I’m not a gifted athlete. My first handgun shot was at 40 years old.

My ability to make USPSA GM in two years from starting was because of my background in training and education.

That's a bit disengenuous. If you made GM in 2 years that's a whole lotta natural talent.

But I do agree that untimed DT is tee-ball

[03RN]

Yes! Just like using untimed accuracy to work on something specific.

But they don’t stop there.

Cool!

[rob_s]

Most people who remain C/D shooters are not able to either critically self assess their weaknesses or willingly choose to ignore them because it make them feel better about themselves.

Or, they don’t practice or put much time in because (a) they are perfectly fine with that level and still achieve their number one goal (have fun) at matches, and have a pretty good understanding of what would or wouldn’t actually make a difference in a defensive shooting (b) have realized that there are far more valuable things in life (the “what’s more important than a sub-second draw” thread kept me thinking “wife, kids, job, bbq, drinking, beach days, pool days, naps, workshop time, friends, sporting clays, actual t-ball…) and/or (c) they realize what jackasses some people seem to become when they reach GM.

I know a lot of guys that would likely be C-class shooters if they ever attended a match, that take a few classes a year because they enjoy them and it’s a decent way to at least maintain those skills, that I’d much rather have my back in a gunfight or hang with with and have a beer and some bbq than a whole host of GMs from the internut.

[JCN]

Or, they don’t practice or put much time in because (a) they are perfectly fine with that level and still achieve their number one goal (have fun) at matches, and have a pretty good understanding of what would or wouldn’t actually make a difference in a defensive shooting (b) have realized that there are far more valuable things in life (the “what’s more important than a sub-second draw” thread kept me thinking “wife, kids, job, bbq, drinking, beach days, pool days, naps, workshop time, friends, sporting clays, actual t-ball…) and/or (c) they realize what jackasses some people seem to become when they reach GM.

I know a lot of guys that would likely be C-class shooters if they ever attended a match, that take a few classes a year because they enjoy them and it’s a decent way to at least maintain those skills, that I’d much rather have my back in a gunfight or hang with with and have a beer and some bbq than a whole host of GMs from the internut.

Cool!

I hope that none of us ever need to have our backs in a gunfight and I'm very glad we get to self-select the types of people we hang out with socially.

[BehindBlueI's]

As further discussion, I’ll again make the point that Hearne makes about more automaticity and skill being more fear and emotion resistant so as to not devolve into the “fear biting” quite as soon.


I think it's going to increase the odds and confidence is good...but false confidence may be just as good as far as not fear biting. Perception may matter more than reality in this instance, but there's so many factors that go into it. I've seen way too many people who either greatly overestimated their skills or just DNGAF who were cool under fire that I do not think I would draw that correlation.

One of eleventy-bajillion anecdotes, a robbery I refer to as the "The Christian Response".

Armed robbery of a gas station. Gas station clerk is an upper middle aged female (unarmed). The suspect is threatening her at gun point, demanding she open the drawer. She talks to him and he eventually says he needs the money because he's hungry and demands she open the drawer again. She tells him that she can't because it's not her money to give him, but if he'll put the gun down she'll give him some money for food. This is at gunpoint, remember. It shocks the guy so much, just completely OODA loops him, and he puts the gun back in his waistband and leaves. Obviously her ability to defend herself was essentially zero, but she had something else that kept her calm. In this case, her faith and her absolute surety she was doing the right thing.

Or, a hostage situation. Husband/wife run a business. Suspect has the wife on the ground holding a revolver to her head demanding the husband open the safe. Husband palmed a NAA revolver and walked up to the armed man holding his wife on the ground threatening her life and shot him in the head with the NAA. Twice. Just to be sure because he was still twitching. The suspect's last words were "what's in your hand?" I would assume this fellow and his NAA would perform like absolute dog shit on any shooting assessment, but he was calm as fuck and executed his plan with no problem. He was pretty matter of fact about the whole thing.




What if machete guy is within 3 feet and my gun is holstered?

I’m going into “I’m fucked I’m fucked” panic mode same as the B class shooter.

Maybe, but I doubt it. The one thing being in a real shooting teaches you is what it's like to be in a real shooting. FoF can simulate the real time event fairly well, but obviously doesn't include the aftermath which is irrelevant for this discussion. Nobody *really* knows how they'll react until they get a chance to react. I know I go into auditory exclusion, for example. The machete thing was a real incident for me. I've told the story, but basically end of a vehicle pursuit, guy crashes out of view, while approaching the car he popped out into view and was dancing around holding the machete down behind his leg so I couldn't quite tell what it was. I had him at gunpoint as another officer was coming from my left to assist. He reared back and threw the machete. I *could* have shot him at that point, but my instinct was to dodge and that's what I did without conscious thought. He then charged me with his arms out for a tackle. I did a speed holster and the rest of the encounter was dealt with without lethal force. I was constantly OODA looping and what helped me was my years of experience of decision making in both real and simulated potentially lethal encounters, not my ability to run the gun had I fired it.

I had time to recognize the threat, make decisions, give commands, etc. while the officer to my left was (self admittedly) stuck in the OODA loop. He could plainly see the machete but did not say anything as he was (again, self-admittedly) trying to decide if he should yell a warning to me or to shoot the suspect...so he did nothing but move. He got stuck at "D" and he's a good shot. He's actually a range instructor now. He didn't panic, mind you, he just wasn't sure which was the better plan so he moved for position and returned to Observe/Orient waiting for something to change.

I was able to fire my Taser (missed one probe high as he dove at me and it was ineffective), step back, kick him in the side of the neck as he tried to tackle me, knock him down, mount him, and punch him in the jaw a few times trying to knock him out before a rookie got oriented to what was happening. Again, not because I'm good with a pistol or good at hand to hand (did I mention I'm not real good at hand to hand? Biggest weakness for me) but because I was really good at OODA. Because I'm good at OODA, I could make conscious decisions about things like shoot/no shoot, appropriate use of force decisions as things changed, etc. I do not think taking half a second off my draw stroke would have altered that.

So, personality comes into play. You seem like the sort who would just buckle down and figure let's deal with the reality as it is. What would help you most at this point is learning things like pre-attack indicators, where legal bright lines are, etc. I've seen WAY more people hesitate due to being unsure of the legal outcome than because they weren't sure they could make the shot, again regardless of the reality of if they could make the shot.

[JCN]

So, personality comes into play. You seem like the sort who would just buckle down and figure let's deal with the reality as it is. What would help you most at this point is learning things like pre-attack indicators, where legal bright lines are, etc. I've seen WAY more people hesitate due to being unsure of the legal outcome than because they weren't sure they could make the shot, again regardless of the reality of if they could make the shot.

Thank you again for the expertise and insights. They are extremely valuable and I appreciate it very much!

[vcdgrips]

JCN re Ben Stoeger

"Too bad he was banned from PF so he can’t chime in."

Life would be better for you here if you a put a bit of effort into having a bit of a filter here. You credibility/transparency/"digestability"/and over all would I have an adult beverage with this guy rating would go up measurably.


PS- when you described your racing experience-was it ever your sole fault that you went into a wall because you drove poorly at that moment in time? No equipment failures, no getting pushed by somebody else, no sun in your eyes etc. you simply drove poorly?

[JHC]

Disclaimer, this is only my opinion. You don’t have to agree.

Dot torture when run untimed or liberally timed is like Tee ball.

It’s good for basic skill development and it is true, if you can’t hit a ball sitting there on a tee… you won’t be able to do it when it’s thrown at you.

But it’s very basic. The ball on the tee is like your sights on target. You get all the time in the world to make sure you can see and judge it.

What happens in the next step? When the pitch is thrown to you?

You learn to judge and do the math in a simple orientation. Vertical drop and the speed it comes to you. This is where recoil management and presentation at speed comes into play when shooting. You watch the sights go up and down, you get a quick sight picture and your brain does the math of where and when to “pull the trigger” whether with a bat or with a gun.

The better your ability to see and extrapolate timing quickly, the faster you can do this. You can hit faster pitches and you can time your recoil management to hit the center of the target on a “bounce.”

People who can draw and split quickly and accurately can do this. It’s the dynamic vision and triggering that’s missing from Tee ball.

Then what happens in the next step after that?

If you’re locked into the simple axis visual calculation and mechanics, then you can start managing fancy and complicated things.

Curve balls, breaking balls, etc. You know what the simple mechanics are supposed to look like, so you quickly can tell when it deviates from that and you can micro correct quickly. For shooting this is when you can do full transitions in the same time as a regular split (0.20 s or so). Your brain can process recoil movement AND physical movement at the same time off your vision cues.


https://youtu.be/83ox_o-nQ7c


https://youtu.be/1zknAzX2nr4

IMO IMO IMO.

Untimed drills are Tee Ball.
Single target or just vertical transitions are simple pitches.
Many “tactical” drills are space constrained due to their setup and are just on a single target or small vertical transition.

IMO, lateral transitions are a more important skill than slide lock reloads for civilians, but it’s rare that there is much taught in that regard. USPSA and action pistol help address some of the complex visual geometry because like everything else, lateral movement and coordination is a skill that needs to be developed and practiced.

I don't disagree. If I'm working on pure precision marksmanship and the trigger press I'm much more impressed with working that at 25 yards at a B8 than at a 1" or 2" dot close up. At least with the former I know my holds and what I can do at 25 yards. One holing at 7 yards doesn't come close IMO. (note I am way more likely to hunt with a handgun than shoot a match with one)

[JCN]

JCN re Ben Stoeger

"Too bad he was banned from PF so he can’t chime in."

Life would be better for your here if you a put a bit of effort into having a bit of a filter here. You credibility/transparency/"digestability"/and over all would I have an adult beverage with this guy rating would go up measurably.


PS- when you described your racing experience-was it every your sole fault that you went into a wall because you drove poorly at that moment in time? No equipment failures, no getting pushed by somebody else, no sun in your eyes etc. you simply drove poorly?

I totally acknowledge that life would be “better” here if I didn’t ruffle feathers and made sure to not create any cognitive dissonance here. But my purpose for being here is different than a lot of others.

I’m here for “teachers and students of the pistol” and not for the social aspect. There are people here who are preeminent tacticians and have opinions that I very much cherish and respect.

There are others that I am not that fond of and I’m sure the feeling is reciprocated.

In my own way, I contribute what I can to the educational pool for people that are open to education. It’s offered at no cost as a service. For people involved in those training programs they see it as a service. It adds value in a way that being likable does not with regard to being a student of the pistol.

Let’s face it. People who are entrenched aren’t going to listen no matter how candy coated it is. They aren’t people that I’d want to have a beer with and Vice versa.

Regarding racing experience, I think that’s illustrative. Because “fault” isn’t constructive. It has to be more specific than that. It’s like “is it your fault that you mentally combusted after a magazine misfed?” Sure, but to make it better you have to break it down. Prepare magazines and clean them so they’re less apt to malfunction, have a plan to take a brief pause and practice malfunction drills more often to reduce the chance of that happening.

So with racing, any error had things I could do better and learn from. Even on the street, if there’s an accident caused or potentially caused by someone else, what could I have done better?

I’ve had minor offs but I’ve never actually wrecked at all. I made it a point to learn from potential dangers and avoid getting in WAY over my head. A little over the head is okay (like two tires off) if within the skill set to prevent catastrophe.

“Simply driving poorly” is like “simply shooting poorly.” It’s so nonspecific that it doesn’t have a recipe for improvement. The more skill you get the more stress resistant it is.

It’s just kind of who I am.

I also have not had a street accident in decades. I do actively scan and assess other people’s threat / risk level and choose my actions accordingly. Because ultimately it’s about risk management more than blame and fault.

[JCN]

I don't disagree. If I'm working on pure precision marksmanship and the trigger press I'm much more impressed with working that at 25 yards at a B8 than at a 1" or 2" dot close up. At least with the former I know my holds and what I can do at 25 yards. One holing at 7 yards doesn't come close IMO. (note I am way more likely to hunt with a handgun than shoot a match with one)

Holds and holdover for sure. That’s why I zero at 25 because I want complete confidence of where it’s going to end up.

But from a pure mechanical PRECISION (not accuracy) standpoint, a 1” at 7 yards should get the same respect as a head box at 25.

I thought this was a brilliant demonstration.


https://youtu.be/H01kA1XCi7U

From my own pace and timing, it is the same vision and mechanics. Whether the gun is zeroed there is a different story so your holdover point is well taken and I agree.


https://youtu.be/521bRTO83Mg

These are coincidentally the same mechanics I use on a 1” at 7.

Compared to a B8 for size reference.
76173
76174

[BehindBlueI's]

But from a pure mechanical PRECISION (not accuracy) standpoint, a 1” at 7 yards should get the same respect as a head box at 25.


Personally, I find small targets at longer distances very fatiguing because it's an exercise in eyesight for me. Especially on an indoor range and with printed black/white targets. I would rather shoot 1" circles at 7-10y because I can see them without the pure effort it takes to see a 3x5 at 25y in the lighting/uncleared smoke/etc. Outside it's less of an issue.

[MickAK]

Personally, I find small targets at longer distances very fatiguing because it's an exercise in eyesight for me. Especially on an indoor range and with printed black/white targets. I would rather shoot 1" circles at 7-10y because I can see them without the pure effort it takes to see a 3x5 at 25y in the lighting/uncleared smoke/etc. Outside it's less of an issue.

Do your eyes get tired or is it the stress of focusing that hard? I was thinking of making a vision relaxation techniques thread as this seems to come up a lot.

[JCN]

Personally, I find small targets at longer distances very fatiguing because it's an exercise in eyesight for me. Especially on an indoor range and with printed black/white targets. I would rather shoot 1" circles at 7-10y because I can see them without the pure effort it takes to see a 3x5 at 25y in the lighting/uncleared smoke/etc. Outside it's less of an issue.

Irons or dots?

I’m totally with you on the irons. I really don’t like shooting them indoors due to lighting. It was one of my seminal observations that had me change to dots when I realized how difficult the vision was for me with irons in lower light / lower contrast.

When I was doing 100 yard unsupported shots for an online challenge I picked the VTAC because of the excellent contrast.

76177

I also picked the fastest 357 Sig ammo I had so I wouldn’t have to deal with as much bullet drop, lol.

[BehindBlueI's]

Do your eyes get tired or is it the stress of focusing that hard?

Focusing and finding the contrast.


Irons or dots?


Irons. I'm still very new to dots. Note I've got good distance vision. I think I'm still like 25/20 or so. I am partially colorblind, however, and it's much more apparent in less than ideal lighting.

[JHC]

Holds and holdover for sure. That’s why I zero at 25 because I want complete confidence of where it’s going to end up.

But from a pure mechanical PRECISION (not accuracy) standpoint, a 1” at 7 yards should get the same respect as a head box at 25.

I thought this was a brilliant demonstration.


https://youtu.be/H01kA1XCi7U

From my own pace and timing, it is the same vision and mechanics. Whether the gun is zeroed there is a different story so your holdover point is well taken and I agree.


https://youtu.be/521bRTO83Mg

These are coincidentally the same mechanics I use on a 1” at 7.

Compared to a B8 for size reference.
76173
76174

Sure.

1" at 7 yds may be the headbox @ 25 equal from a trigger press and that's a good place for me to work with understudy guns. I don't think it addresses the firearm's precision as well. I had a 1911 that one holed at 7 but shot soccerball sized groups out at 25.
That harsh mistress of geometry et al.

Similarly two guns that seem equals at 25 may look very different when the range stretches to 50. Barrel qualities and other things come into play.

It would be mostly academic but for I shoot a variety of guns and none of them have optics so the holds is a self inflicted challenge.

[JCN]

Sure.

1" at 7 yds may be the headbox @ 25 equal from a trigger press and that's a good place for me to work with understudy guns. I don't think it addresses the firearm's precision as well. I had a 1911 that one holed at 7 but shot soccerball sized groups out at 25.
That harsh mistress of geometry et al.

Similarly two guns that seem equals at 25 may look very different when the range stretches to 50. Barrel qualities and other things come into play.

It would be mostly academic but for I have a shoot a variety of guns and none of them have optics so the holds is a self inflicted challenge.

I think that’s fair. You lose a lot of resolution ability on a 1” target especially after the second or third shot chews up the target edges. I think a lot of it comes from the lack of resolution. You have to be completely within the 1” border and even an edge hit is a flier at that distance.

It’s one of the reasons (I agree with you) that I zero at 25. I just can’t tell if something is a little off at 7 but it’s very clear at 25.

[JCN]

Irons. I'm still very new to dots. Note I've got good distance vision. I think I'm still like 25/20 or so. I am partially colorblind, however, and it's much more apparent in less than ideal lighting.

The older I get and the stiffer my eyes get, the more I have to work to see a front sight and try and notice a distant target accurately. I can definitely feel the strain. I figured dots were inevitable for me so I embraced them.

It was an added benefit that it really helped my iron shooting as a side effect.

[David S.]

I sincerely appreciate your contribution and willingness to mentor P-F folks to Get Better(TM).

It’s worth noting that this line of reasoning is a well beaten path around here. It has been discussed to death back when Bolke, Weems, Hearne, Givens, Green, Keepers, Werner, Haggard, SouthNarc, White, TLG, Sean, and a bunch of others were active.

[JMS]

than a whole host of GMs from the internut.

I shudder think of of having to carry a fat asshole like Max Klatt, once he inevitably got hit because he was too busy trying to jar a chunk of kielbasa from an artery to realize that rounds were inbound.

[365X]

As further discussion, I’ll again make the point that Hearne makes about more automaticity and skill being more fear and emotion resistant so as to not devolve into the “fear biting” quite as soon.

When “Shootin Newton” (the competition shooting female officer in California) was being approached with the box cutter wielding assailant on meth, she did not panic and just executed within her rational brain.

There are some anecdotal observations that I have had.

I used to race cars at a National level. Like anyone who has raced, I’ve gone off track or been forced off track or had equipment malfunction (brakes) at speed. Having a lot of skill does help stave off panic and helps you just stay within the physical limits. I imagine this is akin to what happens in other potentially imminently life threatening incidents and supports Hearne’s hypothesis.

This next example is cheesy and it might not hold. So take it with a grain of salt. I had to take a holster class in order to draw from the holster at the range.

I was nursing my sprained right wrist so I flipped a holster and did the course left handed.

The final exercise he wouldn’t tell us what it was. Just “draw and shoot five shots on target when I give you the signal.”

Then he started electronically moving the target forward and backwards. We all ran the drill separately so we couldn’t see what the drill was.

He basically did a version of the Tuller drill and when he gave the signal, he advanced the target at us at full speed.

The target was a legal paper sized target. Most other students came back white as a sheet and with a target that looked like buckshot. Many, many misses.

For my turn, when he gave the command and ran the target at me my first thought was “oh, that’s the drill, eh?” Then quick assessment of the distance and time math, cross checked with my left handed abilities and I made the decision that head shots were well within my ability.

76151

The five shots in that drill were the head shots.

Now I am NOT saying I’d be that cool if that were happening in real life. Especially if the bad guy had a gun.

I am not saying that at all. But the level of stress resistance and execution was noticeably different between students.

The instructor told the class “there’s one person in this class that I would probably lose in a gunfight to, and I don’t say that often.”

Then I told him I wasn’t left handed.


JCN……..you’re the Dread Pirate Roberts ! (Do you get the reference ? the movie Princess Bride)

[JCN]

JCN……..you’re the Dread Pirate Roberts ! (Do you get the reference ? the movie Princess Bride)

I actually registered one event as Inigo Montoya…

[365X]

I actually registered one event as Inigo Montoya…

The first part of the movie was great !

After the Sicilian died the movie went down hill. I’ve structured my entire life around that movie.

“Never get involved in a land war in Asia”, this advice has always served me well.

[365X]

I wonder if could use famous names to register for my USPSA practice matches…….

Tiger Woods, Elvis Presley, Wolfgang A. Mozart…………….
But my squad would then always refer to me by my common name………Hey Dickhead !
Actually that might be the funniest name to register as, “Hey Dickhead”……, “Hey Dickhead, you’re on deck”.

But everybody doesn’t have to hate me yet. First they need to get to know me.

[Shawn Dodson]

'All of the competition things that we’ve been doing just get in the way of the gunfighting realities that we need to train for. Simplify vs. mystify gunfighting... Let's simplify these things and get good enough for the gunfight.

'Delineate between the two. Learn how to shoot defensively first and then refine those skills as time, money, energy, and desire allow us to do so with precision marksmanship. Hockey vs. figure skating. Spend most of the time learning how to play hockey.'

-- Ken Murray, "Training at the Speed of Life" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92qup0LKI88 (4 minute video)

[JCN]

'All of the competition things that we’ve been doing just get in the way of the gunfighting realities that we need to train for. Simplify vs. mystify gunfighting... Let's simplify these things and get good enough for the gunfight.

'Delineate between the two. Learn how to shoot defensively first and then refine those skills as time, money, energy, and desire allow us to do so with precision marksmanship. Hockey vs. figure skating. Spend most of the time learning how to play hockey.'

-- Ken Murray, "Training at the Speed of Life" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92qup0LKI88 (4 minute video)

He has rad hair.

:D

Interesting perspective. I agree and I don’t agree.

Good enough is probably good enough. Unless it’s not.

I think improving with firearms is fun and might be helpful, but probably not necessary… unless it is.

So I improve because it’s a fun hobby and I’d rather do USPSA than golf. Maybe it’ll help me in a gunfight? Maybe (hopefully) I’ll never be in a gunfight.

But what I like about more skill rather than less is that I have a good sense of what I can and cannot do at what speed which reduces the chances of misses and collateral damage to bystanders.

But fundamentally I agree which is why a pocket revolver is my carry gun sometimes.

[Clusterfrack]

'All of the competition things that we’ve been doing just get in the way of the gunfighting realities that we need to train for. Simplify vs. mystify gunfighting... Let's simplify these things and get good enough for the gunfight.

'Delineate between the two. Learn how to shoot defensively first and then refine those skills as time, money, energy, and desire allow us to do so with precision marksmanship. Hockey vs. figure skating. Spend most of the time learning how to play hockey.'

-- Ken Murray, "Training at the Speed of Life" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92qup0LKI88 (4 minute video)

I mostly disagree. We've been down this road so many times, and I still have heard no compelling reason why "competition things that we’ve been doing just get in the way of the gunfighting realities that we need to train for". There is strong support that training in competitive shooting is synergistic with training in gunfighting. The analogy of hockey vs. figure skating is bullshit. Respectfully, I'd ask Ken Murray try that analogy out on any USPSA GM, who also happens to be a LEO or military operator. I'm pretty sure the answer would be that as gunfighters gain skill (as they do through competitive shooting and in other ways), the shooting part becomes SIMPLER when it really counts.

Of course, time, effort, and resources are limiting. And I suppose defense-oriented training could logically come first because it's a life-safety skill.

But Rob Pincus' approach to training wouldn't be my choice in any case.

I don't normally get my buttons pushed. But... Figure skating? Really?

[Clusterfrack]

More about this video:

After someone trains with these guys and shoots an innocent bystander...

Prosecutor: so, you've been "simplifying" your handgun training to shoot without using your sights at 3 yards? And your trainer stated that:
"The things you do for precision marksmanship will get in the way of gunfighting"
https://youtu.be/92qup0LKI88?t=205


Are there defensive scenarios where we can use an index without sights? Yes.
Are there defensive scenarios where using an index without sights may get you and innocent people killed? Yes.
Can skilled shooters make rapid, precise shots under pressure: Yes, but it takes training and practice.

If someone can help me understand what value this video provides other than a negative example, I'm ready to listen.

[Shawn Dodson]

Respectfully, I'd ask Ken Murray try that analogy out on any USPSA GM, who also happens to be a LEO or military operator.

Murray was one of the guys that co-founded Simunitions and the Simunitions training program. His book, "Training at the Speed of Life", is widely regarded as the gold standard for reality based gunfight training. He's now involved with Reality Based Training Association https://www.rbta.net

[Clusterfrack]

Murray was one of the guys that co-founded Simunitions and the Simunitions training program. His book, "Training at the Speed of Life", is widely regarded as the gold standard for reality based gunfight training. He's now involved with Reality Based Training Association https://www.rbta.net

I'm aware of that, and am having a hard time reconciling it with what he said in the video.

[Shawn Dodson]

I'm aware of that, and am having a hard time reconciling it with what he said in the video. That has been his opinion since, at least 2004, when his book came out.

[JHC]

I don't normally get my buttons pushed. But... Figure skating? Really?

Bad analogy winner! Fairly common that highly trained and combat experienced gunfighters shoot USPSA pistol around NC. But not on social media/YT. They have their reasons.