Guns as modern fetishes (culled from shotgun thread)

[Trooper224]

There was a time when firearms may have been more ubiquitous in American homes, but most of those were working tools of one form or another. Now, we seem to be experiencing a reproliferation of firearms. However, we're also living in a time where everything seems to become fetishized and made into some kind of lifestyle talisman. The average American also seems to be less mature, holding onto their childishness at an ever increasing rate. Consequently, firearms seem to be viewed as cool toys, or tactical fantasy fashion rather than the serious weapons they are. Firearms like this play into that trend, one that personally concerns me.

-Side conversation made into it's own topic- BBI

[JRB]

There was a time when firearms may have been more ubiquitous in American homes, but most of those were working tools of one form or another. Now, we seem to be experiencing a reproliferation of firearms. However, we're also living in a time where everything seems to become fetishized and made into some kind of lifestyle talisman. The average American also seems to be less mature, holding onto their childishness at an ever increasing rate. Consequently, firearms seem to be viewed as cool toys, or tactical fantasy fashion rather than the serious weapons they are. Firearms like this play into that trend, one that personally concerns me.

I'd contend that weapons have always been fetishized. Not just guns, but swords, axes, etc through the ages that have been embellished and finely made from ornate materials just for the sake of being fancy clearly proves this.
Conspicuous consumption, or assertion of fine taste or means, lifestyle talisman, by any other name it's the same shit. It's made to impress you so you buy it to hopefully impress other people. Seller makes money, you get a fun shiny new thing to brag about; Nothing new under the sun there.

What has changed is the constant exposure to video and image media that the gunternet has played to just the same as every other commercial industry/consumer commodity genre, and the myriad of available commercial firearms that are within the means of the average hobbyist.
Working class American homes couldn't often afford more than a handful of different firearms, so utility had to be prioritized over 'I just think it's cool'.
Today, I can buy a pointless space-shotgun that has no practical use beyond giggles at a square range, and that's fine, because it's a hobby to be enjoyed and I'm fortunate to have the means to do so. Also, and more importantly, it's my motherfucking Constitutional right to do so unless the state can make a lawful and compelling argument to deny me that right.

As for the lack of maturity/enduring childishness etc. IMHO that's an entirely different situation. The root cause I see is a societally-pushed lack of bad results and outcomes following people's bad decisions in life.
Maturity, responsibility, and ownership of one's actions cannot be expected from folks who grew up without effective parenting into a world without an effective legal system, and thereby enjoy a paradigm that almost deliberately rewards 'cultural' bad decisions, displacing blame, and lying as much as possible.

Stupid space shotguns being lawfully sold to video gamers and airsoft kiddies collectively have nothing to do with that problem.

But that's just my two cents and it's worth probably less than that.

That all said - with NFA laws being as silly as they are, a 7+1 or 8+1 'bullpump' that was dead reliable and came with sensible controls, skipped the dual-tube-mag stuff, had good sling mounting points, and had a LOP adjustment of some kind would probably get my money. No disrespect to a sorted 590, 870, 1301, or Benelli.

[Trooper224]

I'd contend that weapons have always been fetishized. Not just guns, but swords, axes, etc through the ages that have been embellished and finely made from ornate materials just for the sake of being fancy clearly proves this.
Conspicuous consumption, or assertion of fine taste or means, lifestyle talisman, by any other name it's the same shit. It's made to impress you so you buy it to hopefully impress other people. Seller makes money, you get a fun shiny new thing to brag about; Nothing new under the sun there.

I'd contend that you're completely off base in your assertion. Embellishment and fetishization are entirely different things, especially when you're trying to use examples from ages when people practised values and societal standards far different than our own. That's call false equivalency. We're talking 2021AD, not 1021AD.


What has changed is the constant exposure to video and image media that the gunternet has played to just the same as every other commercial industry/consumer commodity genre, and the myriad of available commercial firearms that are within the means of the average hobbyist.
Working class American homes couldn't often afford more than a handful of different firearms, so utility had to be prioritized over 'I just think it's cool'.
Today, I can buy a pointless space-shotgun that has no practical use beyond giggles at a square range, and that's fine, because it's a hobby to be enjoyed and I'm fortunate to have the means to do so. Also, and more importantly, it's my motherfucking Constitutional right to do so unless the state can make a lawful and compelling argument to deny me that right.

I never said a thing about infringing upon anyones "motherfucking Constitutional right to do so". I knew someone one would play that card though, I'm surpised it took as long as it did. I'm talking about responsibilities. Those aren't mutually exclusive of "motherfucking Constitutional right " , even though it's very unfashionable to admit amongst the, "motherfucking Constitutional right" crowd.


As for the lack of maturity/enduring childishness etc. IMHO that's an entirely different situation. The root cause I see is a societally-pushed lack of bad results and outcomes following people's bad decisions in life.
Maturity, responsibility, and ownership of one's actions cannot be expected from folks who grew up without effective parenting into a world without an effective legal system, and thereby enjoy a paradigm that almost deliberately rewards 'cultural' bad decisions, displacing blame, and lying as much as possible.

Stupid space shotguns being lawfully sold to video gamers and airsoft kiddies collectively have nothing to do with that problem.

I never made an attempt to promote stupid space shotguns as the root cause, or even an indicator of our societies ills. From what I can see, you failed to grasp my point entirely. But hey, you've got your "motherfucking Constitutional rights" so screw everything else.

[JRB]

I'd contend that you're completely off base in your assertion. Embellishment and fetishization are entirely different things, especially when you're trying to use examples from ages when people practised values and societal standards far different than our own. That's call false equivalency. We're talking 2021AD, not 1021AD.



I never said a thing about infringing upon anyones "motherfucking Constitutional right to do so". I knew someone one would play that card though, I'm surpised it took as long as it did. I'm talking about responsibilities. Those aren't mutually exclusive of "motherfucking Constitutional right " , even though it's very unfashionable to admit amongst the, "motherfucking Constitutional right" crowd.



I never made an attempt to promote stupid space shotguns as the root cause, or even an indicator of our societies ills. From what I can see, you failed to grasp my point entirely. But hey, you've got your "motherfucking Constitutional rights" so screw everything else.

Gotta love it when an LEO is lecturing a career NCO about the inherent responsibilities in Constitutional rights. 2020 sucked enough being deployed through Turkey, Iran, and COVID but 2021 is sure steaming up to be a fucking contender.

I thought we were having a discussion, in which case I'd be really interested in you elaborating on those differences because I see no difference. Humanity has been obsessing about their weapons and making their weapons prettier than needed throughout every recorded culture across all of recorded time.
But if you're more interested in a self-aggrandizing musing about people daring to like guns you don't like, I'd invite you to consider the GD section instead of the tech sections.

[farscott]

Setting aside the politics, my belief is that firearms have become fetishes (attraction to an inanimate object) for many people. Part of it has resulted from people playing video games now having enough money to purchase the "cool guns" in those games. Part of it those same people buying what the cool people use(d), especially if it is hard to acquire. I see an intense interest for the 10mm version of the MP5 for this reason. I remember when the CZ 75 was not easily imported during the 1980s; it was described as a panacea for every known handgun issue, including capacity, action type (you choose), reliability, and firepower. Then with regular importation, the pistol became less a talisman and more another "wonder-nine"

A great example is the custom 1911 world where appearance is more important than function. Some smiths have a reputation for making beautiful pistols; however, those pistols rarely appear to be sold with any signs of wear. Nor is the function or reliability referenced or discussed. Fetishes, not tools.

[JHC]

There was a time when firearms may have been more ubiquitous in American homes, but most of those were working tools of one form or another. Now, we seem to be experiencing a reproliferation of firearms. However, we're also living in a time where everything seems to become fetishized and made into some kind of lifestyle talisman. The average American also seems to be less mature, holding onto their childishness at an ever increasing rate. Consequently, firearms seem to be viewed as cool toys, or tactical fantasy fashion rather than the serious weapons they are. Firearms like this play into that trend, one that personally concerns me.

-Side conversation made into it's own topic- BBI

OMG this is so on point!!! All of it, not just the bolded. Tact'd out firearms and all the trappings worn on one's sleeve are like the new "Salt Life".

[BehindBlueI's]

I'm sure I've seen ceremonial weapons (war clubs and blades) with "fetish" descriptors on the sign at various museums both home and abroad. I think this could be an interesting conversation. Can we define "fetish" for the context of the thread?

[revchuck38]

There was a time when firearms may have been more ubiquitous in American homes, but most of those were working tools of one form or another. Now, we seem to be experiencing a reproliferation of firearms. However, we're also living in a time where everything seems to become fetishized and made into some kind of lifestyle talisman. The average American also seems to be less mature, holding onto their childishness at an ever increasing rate. Consequently, firearms seem to be viewed as cool toys, or tactical fantasy fashion rather than the serious weapons they are. Firearms like this play into that trend, one that personally concerns me.

-Side conversation made into it's own topic- BBI

I think this is most obvious with the CAS folks, though to their credit they've never pretended that it's something else. And I have to admit, shooting a Colt SAA, an M92, and a coach gun in a match looks like a lot of fun!

[BaiHu]

I'll take a crack at it after we look at Merriam.

fet·ish
/ˈfediSH/
noun

1.
a form of sexual desire in which gratification is linked to an abnormal degree to a particular object, item of clothing, part of the body, etc.
"Victorian men developed fetishes focusing on feet, shoes, and boots"

2.
an inanimate object worshiped for its supposed magical powers or because it is considered to be inhabited by a spirit.

I think the word extraneous comes to mind when I think of the gun fetish world.

1. Can you use the guns you own to a high degree of competency? Hit what you intend to hit at a par time commensurate with self-defense or hunting.

2. Are you competent in hunting animals vs self defense or both with the firearms you own?

3. Do you have firearms that are for a purpose you don't use it for? Ie collecting.

4. Do you have bells and whistles that you don't use and/or don't know how to use?

I think these are the most objective standards I can come up with. This doesn't mean I'm judging someone's right or desire

All stupid 2A distractions aside I think the gun community is great that it attracts so many different types of owners expressing their 2A rights. It's like being a part of a car club that accepts Model T and Model S in the same lot to admire.

I think (not having been part of the previous thread that this was spun off of) that this discussion is more about the culture of the modern gun owner, and not a legal discussion about "owning too many guns", but maybe I'm wrong and too lazy to go find the previous thread.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

[HeavyDuty]

I’ve always thought engraved Glock slide cover plates (especially Punisher and biohazard emblems) are a good indicator of emotional maturity and fetishization.


OMG this is so on point!!! All of it, not just the bolded. Tact'd out firearms and all the trappings worn on one's sleeve are like the new "Salt Life".

Am I like the only person who always thought these said “Slut Life?” Typography fail.

[mtnbkr]

Am I like the only person who always thought these said “Slut Life?” Typography fail.

Every damn time I see one.

Chris

[awp_101]

Am I like the only person who always thought these said “Slut Life?” Typography fail.

I will from here on out…🤣

[jh9]

There was a time when firearms may have been more ubiquitous in American homes, but most of those were working tools of one form or another

Not so sure about that. Let's not forget that the whole reason Colt re-introduced the SAA after WW2 was because western TV shows got popular and people wanted what they saw on the teevee. In 1956.


However, we're also living in a time where everything seems to become fetishized and made into some kind of lifestyle talisman.

[angry truck noises]


Consequently, firearms seem to be viewed as cool toys, or tactical fantasy fashion rather than the serious weapons they are. Firearms like this play into that trend, one that personally concerns me.

To both points above: The internet happened. It's a magnifying glass that your subconscious mind reflexively points at the strange, the novel and the bizarre.

The last 20 years has seen The Internet taken from the nerds and given to the masses and the result is a dozen facetweeters where a relative handful of fetishists have put it all on full display for an audience consisting of everyone. Hell I don't even use facebook or twitter and I still can't avoid screenshot memes of someone's tweet or fb post. So, counterpoint to the average person being less mature or holding onto their childishness is that the bizarre and the novel naturally attracts attention. And everyone now has access to "content"-- regardless of quality-- from everyone everywhere. Case in point: 20 years ago you would have never even heard of the chipotle twins unless you were local.

I'm not so sure that the human has really changed. We just have a broader view. Which is why it's more important than ever to make sure broad assertions like the above are backed by data because it's become trivial to see what you want to see in the world.

Although, yes. I do own completely impractical things that I probably wouldn't if I hadn't seen it on the internet. But I'm not entirely sure how it's all that different except in scale from someone wanting a Wyatt Earp special in 1956 because TV.

[farscott]

I am completely and wholly guilty of owning firearms that are not tools. In fact, the vast majority of what I own is for fun. It is no secret that there is only one .22 I cannot abide, the USFA ZIP gun. I have way too many rimfire handguns and rifles to justify as tools. I have some that I use as tools but the vast majority are more likely to see twenty rounds or so on my backyard range after a frustrating meeting ends. I have strange models like the low-fidelity Iver Johnson copy of the Colt Woodsman and the Norinco copy of a Walther competition pistol to which they ascribed the wrong name (TT Olympia). I have conversion kits for pistols that I do not (yet) own. I have more Ruger Standard-pattern pistols than can be justified because the first pistol I shot was my father's Standard, and I enjoy how shooting one takes me back to 1973. Others collect S&W M29 revolvers after watching Dirty Harry or HK P7M8s after watching Die Hard.

But collecting firearms is not treating firearms as fetishes. One has to ascribe something unusual to an object for it to become a fetish. Collecting alone is not enough. There is a line that must be crossed even if the line is hard to describe. Ascribing unusual values is one way, and treating the item as a talisman is another. I am sure there are more.

[BehindBlueI's]

Not so sure about that. Let's not forget that the whole reason Colt re-introduced the SAA after WW2 was because western TV shows got popular and people wanted what they saw on the teevee. In 1956.


How many revolvers did Dirty Harry sell for S&W? That's at least 99.9% of the reason I own my Model 29, and I think that's probably a 'fetish' in the context of the thread. Owning it makes me feel cooler via the association with the movie.

[4RNR]

Would these be considered a fetishized talisman?75883

I used to be on a gun forum who's members were mostly over 50, probably over 60, and centered around a specific firearm manufacturer and one sub category with firearms ranging from 1890s to 1960s. The "golden age". And most of these people did nothing but clean these guns once a week, and talk about how nice it was to look into its deep dark bluing and how relaxing it was to clean and polish it once again. These are retirement age men. Is that acting childish and fetishizing?

Cool toys and fantasy fashion? Is that like a bbq gun? Where some old guy has a pimped out SAA on his hip? Sometimes two!

[jh9]

How many revolvers did Dirty Harry sell for S&W? That's at least 99.9% of the reason I own my Model 29, and I think that's probably a 'fetish' in the context of the thread. Owning it makes me feel cooler via the association with the movie.

I think until S&W could catch up the answer is "all of them". :p

[jh9]

Would these be considered a fetishized talisman?75883

If those 1858s are wrong I don't want to be right.


I used to be on a gun forum who's members were mostly over 50, probably over 60, and centered around a specific firearm manufacturer and one sub category with firearms ranging from 1890s to 1960s. The "golden age". And most of these people did nothing but clean these guns once a week, and talk about how nice it was to look into its deep dark bluing and how relaxing it was to clean and polish it once again. These are retirement age men. Is that acting childish and fetishizing?

You can just say "S&W forum". Everybody understands. :p

Childish? Not to my mind. Fetishizing? Maybe. I think this is where we start to separate the act from the personality type. It's one thing to collect a bunch of old S&Ws. It's another thing entirely to become weirdly obsessive about them.

[4RNR]

If those 1858s are wrong I don't want to be right.



You can just say "S&W forum". Everybody understands. [emoji14]

Childish? Not to my mind. Fetishizing? Maybe. I think this is where we start to separate the act from the personality type. It's one thing to collect a bunch of old S&Ws. It's another thing entirely to become weirdly obsessive about them.LoL ok. It was that obvious?


There is nothing new under the sun. People have always pimped out their weapons. The wealthier one was the more extravagant they could go. Even poor people would do something. Home made engravings for example.

Doesn't mean it's everyone.

[Bio]

This is tangentially related, but it's interesting to me, and I think it fits:

In the 14th century people wore daggers a lot. Generally the richer you were, the nicer the dagger. Knightly classes, specifically, could wear what was called a rondel dagger, and it was basically an advertisement that you were of a knightly class and had some disposable income, because it was almost entirely deficient for any task other than putting holes in a man wearing heavy armor. Wearing one showed you had the income to buy something useless for everyday life, and that you were of a high enough social class that you might have to someday tangle with a man in heavy armor. It's not fetishization, but it's using impractical weaponry in a non-combat situation as a social statement because the weapon says cool things about you.

[Trooper224]

I’ve always thought engraved Glock slide cover plates (especially Punisher and biohazard emblems) are a good indicator of emotional maturity and fetishization.



Am I like the only person who always thought these said “Slut Life?” Typography fail.

This is a good example, thank you.

It's all about context. It's not about owning collectables, or firearms just because their cool. I have plenty of those too. It's all about the context in which you place these things and the behaviors associated with it.

[WobblyPossum]

I’ve always thought engraved Glock slide cover plates (especially Punisher and biohazard emblems) are a good indicator of emotional maturity and fetishization.


This is a good example, thank you.

It's all about context. It's not about owning collectables, or firearms just because their cool. I have plenty of those too. It's all about the context in which you place these things and the behaviors associated with it.

I think we can all agree that putting Punisher skulls on anything that isn’t the Punisher’s body armor is stupid and should cause people to feel shame.

[Borderland]

So S&W made a shotgun that looks like something from Starship Troopers. Big laugh here. Obviously the marketing dept has been busy. Revolver sales must be slow and they've always been playing catchup with their AR's and strikers. That's not to say those aren't good products, just late to market. I don't see a trend here for space shotguns but maybe S&W wants to be a trend setter for a change instead of on the tail end of shifts in the market.

I'm not offended. It's the work of the internet and marketing gurus looking to score some sales. For me it isn't any different then Hornady introducing a new cartridge every few years. The old ones work just fine but in the minds of a lot of consumers, newer has to be better. In some cases it is but in most cases it isn't.

I like the analogy to cowboy action shooters.


I think this is most obvious with the CAS folks, though to their credit they've never pretended that it's something else. And I have to admit, shooting a Colt SAA, an M92, and a coach gun in a match looks like a lot of fun!

That seems to me to be adults acting out fantasies using costumes and firearms. I've talked to a few of those folks and they enjoy the games immensely. Having fun has always been a priority for me so who am I to judge how people want to do that. If owning a space shotgun puts a smile on your face then you should probably have one. Personally I'm stuck in the last century when it comes to shotguns because that's what I'm familiar with and know how to use. I collected British game guns that came into vogue about a hundred years ago. I hunted with those and I still have one. Was that something like CAS?

Look for the S&W space shotgun in an action movie soon. Maybe that's the marketing angle.

[Caballoflaco]

Remember that time in Europe, Northern Europe and England in particular where for 500 years or so the fashion of the day was to walk around with knives that looked like a dick? Yup dick daggers were a thing, though the proper name is bollocks dagger. 7589075891

And while not weapons related; women doing the full Penthouse spread and gargoyles fellating themselves were more common on Churches than one might think and most here would probably be consider an adult male who carved such today immature.
7589275893

If we move foward in history and a continent over I doubt all those penny novels about Jesse James and Billy the Kid sold in the 19th century were sold to teenagers and if folks back then made enough money I’m sure they would have been buying buntline specials too.

[bofe954]

This is might veering off, but as a guy that shoots a little USPSA. I don't really see that much difference between the CAS guy in cowboy gear and his stuff and the open guy in wrap around glasses, techwear and salomans, giant comped gun and 170mm mag. Same could be said about IDPA guy.

Everyone has their hobbies and activities, some people get more extreme and are looked at as outliers and critisized.

[Yung]

Trooper224 JRB

Do you guys have screencaps or links to any writing on the 'cargo cult' concept some trainers have mentioned as it relates to tool acquisition? I can't remember any specific names and my searching ability just isn't working for me this morning.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

On, no. Not the USPSA/IDPA = are tney just games or real 'training' debate. I think I once asked if USPSA did a carry survey like IDPA once reported from their nationals and some folks here had a flaming fit even to ask such.

Anyway, being an old slow toot - my USPSA or IDPA expectations is to get some trigger, draw, accuracy practice with a reasonable EDC gun. I don't chase milliseconds with things I couldn't carry. Now this may be cognitive dissonance as I am unlikely to ever win except if nobody in my division shows up.

The planning of reloads is certainly a game practice, for instance. I don't usually do that. I shoot till empty and reload unless it is incredibly obvious that reload make sense beyond millisecond chasing. I just have fun.

The CAS thing is amusing as on other forums, every once in awhile someone posts for an attaboy, you are cool - why they carry a SAA for EDC (not for game) or even a Black powder gun (not a felon). The latest was BP/OC and when the flaws of that style were pointed out, the flaming hissy fits of challenging someone's manly posturing were hilarious.

Folks say: I support you carrying something that you are comfortable with and shoot well.

If you say, NO, come up to speed with something realistics - MUH RIGHTZ! How dare you.

[Rosco Benson]

How many golf clubs does one "need"? How about pairs of shoes (don't ask my wife)?


In a long life of shooting, I have never encountered anyone for whom guns are a fetish. I have met collectors, but would not denigrate their choices...art, stamps, cars, guns, whatever.


I have seen lots of folks for whom a gun is a talisman to ward off evil, rather than a tool to confront it. Skill is tougher to attain than "stuff". This brings Cooper's observation that simply owning a piano does not make one a pianist.

[JTMcC]

I'd contend that weapons have always been fetishized. Not just guns, but swords, axes, etc through the ages that have been embellished and finely made from ornate materials just for the sake of being fancy clearly proves this.
Conspicuous consumption, or assertion of fine taste or means, lifestyle talisman, by any other name it's the same shit. It's made to impress you so you buy it to hopefully impress other people. Seller makes money, you get a fun shiny new thing to brag about; Nothing new under the sun there.

What has changed is the constant exposure to video and image media that the gunternet has played to just the same as every other commercial industry/consumer commodity genre, and the myriad of available commercial firearms that are within the means of the average hobbyist.
Working class American homes couldn't often afford more than a handful of different firearms, so utility had to be prioritized over 'I just think it's cool'.
Today, I can buy a pointless space-shotgun that has no practical use beyond giggles at a square range, and that's fine, because it's a hobby to be enjoyed and I'm fortunate to have the means to do so. Also, and more importantly, it's my motherfucking Constitutional right to do so unless the state can make a lawful and compelling argument to deny me that right.

As for the lack of maturity/enduring childishness etc. IMHO that's an entirely different situation. The root cause I see is a societally-pushed lack of bad results and outcomes following people's bad decisions in life.
Maturity, responsibility, and ownership of one's actions cannot be expected from folks who grew up without effective parenting into a world without an effective legal system, and thereby enjoy a paradigm that almost deliberately rewards 'cultural' bad decisions, displacing blame, and lying as much as possible.

Stupid space shotguns being lawfully sold to video gamers and airsoft kiddies collectively have nothing to do with that problem.

But that's just my two cents and it's worth probably less than that.

That all said - with NFA laws being as silly as they are, a 7+1 or 8+1 'bullpump' that was dead reliable and came with sensible controls, skipped the dual-tube-mag stuff, had good sling mounting points, and had a LOP adjustment of some kind would probably get my money. No disrespect to a sorted 590, 870, 1301, or Benelli.

Anybody that doesn't believe that first sentence hasn't lived around Indians ie native Americans ie whatever term you choose or they don't pay attention.

A simple image search for "native American firearms" tells the tale.

For what it's worth, I'm a fan of brass tacks, leather wraps, etc. Most people aren't, but it's been a thing as was posted probably since the first cave man put some decoration on his club during a cold winter night.

[Clusterfrack]

I think guns as a "fetish" is overly dramatic, and introduces misplaced analogies with religious fetishes.

Guns can be symbolic. Some people own guns largely because of their symbolism.

[BehindBlueI's]

I think guns as a "fetish" is overly dramatic, and introduces misplaced analogies with religious fetishes.


That's something I was thinking on, as weapons sometimes also contained what I would consider religious fetishes.

I don't remember if I saw it here on PF or elsewhere, but https://www.livescience.com/51802-medieval-sword-mysterious-inscription.html


The River Witham sword was forged in Germany, which was then the blade-making center of Europe, according to the British Museum. And pre-Christian Germanic tribesman inscribed runes onto their swords, axes and armor to "endow the items with magical powers," the Fyris Swords Project researchers wrote in a paper published in the journal Waffen- und Kostümkunde (Weaponry and Costumes) in 2009.

It's possible that this ancient tradition was carried over to Christian times and that the inscriptions on the blades were therefore meant to "invoke God’s holy name and his grace to gain support and protection in battle," according to the researchers.


The first two letters on the River Witham sword are ND, which van Hasselt said might be a kind of invocation that stands for "Nostrum Dominus (our Lord) or Nomine Domini (name of the Lord)."

The XOXcombination that follows could refer to the Holy Trinity of the Christian faith. And the two plus sign-shaped symbols before and after the inscription are likely Christian crosses, according to the Fyris Swords Project researchers.

I would assume the fetish/war club combinations were of a similar meaning to the owners within their own cultural trappings.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

How many golf clubs does one "need"? How about pairs of shoes (don't ask my wife)?


In a long life of shooting, I have never encountered anyone for whom guns are a fetish. I have met collectors, but would not denigrate their choices...art, stamps, cars, guns, whatever.


I have seen lots of folks for whom a gun is a talisman to ward off evil, rather than a tool to confront it. Skill is tougher to attain than "stuff". This brings Cooper's observation that simply owning a piano does not make one a pianist.

Back to the resistance to train theme. As Karl Rehn pointed out, over 90% of LTCs take no other training than the course. With constitutional carry, that will drop the number of folks with even a small minimum experience. I've gone over the need to train to my Taurus 85 friends, to no avail. Not that you can't spend the time to shoot a snubby decently as we have discussed. No need to rehash those who won't train.

[Trooper224]

I think guns as a "fetish" is overly dramatic, and introduces misplaced analogies with religious fetishes.

Guns can be symbolic. Some people own guns largely because of their symbolism.

Perhaps, but it's interesting that, in a statement I wrote consisting of 107 words, that's the only one that's been fixated on and some seem to be offended by the association. I also used the term "lifestyle talisman ", but that has gone largely untouched. From a social standpoint, there are some very unhealthy things going on in the gun culture that don't serve us well. It doesn't matter if these things happened in antiquity. To that I say, "Well, no shit Captain Obvious." We don't live in bronze age Greece, or medieval England. We live here and now in 21st century USA with the attached concerns. Excusing all of this with the "muh rights" and "you do you bro" mentality doesn't benifit us, or make us stronger as a collective. I'd like to see some behavior that exhibits maturity and responsibility, rather than infantile ass hattery from people who should no better.

I'd like to have people consider how their actions reflect upon everyone else in the group, rather than pose on instaface with an AR while you pull your leggings down to your pubic bone, or put the "your fucked" dust cover on your rifle, or strut around the stop and rob with your SA sixgun in a fast draw holster (saw that just the other day). I wish people were mature enough to take just one second and think. "Who and what are my actions best serving?"

We constantly condemn the left on their behavior, and yet we seem to be completely unwilling to question or analyze the highly debatable behaviors and underlying pssychology of gun owners. Or rather, our condemnation doesn't proceed past posting a photo of the Chipolte Twins.

[Clusterfrack]

You make good points, Trooper224. I'm not offended by the idea of guns as fetishes. I just think 'symbolism' is a better term. Everything seems to be symbolic these days--especially when posted on Instagram or Twitter--which amplify fringe ideas.

[BehindBlueI's]

I've no idea who the Chipotle twins are. I originally figured some internet celebs, but are they open carry advocates or something?

I'm personally more interested in the notion of weapons as a fetish and the history of it, not because I'm offended by it but because it's interesting.

As far as if the starship trooper shotgun is bad for us as a whole, is it? If it gets more people interested in guns is that a bad thing? Sig's rainbow colors? My Model 29 because Dirty Harry? Are guns strictly for those who are "serious" about them, in whatever context you decide that to be, or is a broader base of gun owners increasing the political cost of trying to limit gun rights? There's lots of "serious" hunters who the term "Fudd" was coined for, after all.

[mtnbkr]

I've no idea who the Chipotle twins are. I originally figured some internet celebs, but are they open carry advocates or something?

I'm personally more interested in the notion of weapons as a fetish and the history of it, not because I'm offended by it but because it's interesting.

As far as if the starship trooper shotgun is bad for us as a whole, is it? If it gets more people interested in guns is that a bad thing? Sig's rainbow colors? My Model 29 because Dirty Harry? Are guns strictly for those who are "serious" about them, in whatever context you decide that to be, or is a broader base of gun owners increasing the political cost of trying to limit gun rights? There's lots of "serious" hunters who the term "Fudd" was coined for, after all.

Nope. Guns can and should be fun. I've painted more than one stock garish colors just because I can. :D

Sometimes we take ourselves far too seriously.

Chris

[Mark D]

Am I the only the only person who read "CAS" and thinks "close air support"? I was momentarily confused, thinking there was a whole group of dudes with fetishes for combat controllers.

Side note on Cowboy Action Shooting - that is a weird freaking sport in my opinion. Mainly because of the way they adopt personas and characteristics of the period. That's what distinguishes them from other shooting sports.

Back to the topic at hand... How does the new S&W shotgun fit in with fetishes and symbolism? Damned if I know. It seems like a derpy scattergun that will attract derpy people. Which is fine I suppose.

Weapons have always been personalized and customized. Is that fetishization? I don't know. There's an inherent human respect for tools that are designed and manufactured to take life. And people throughout history have embellished, engraved, customized and otherwise decorated their weapons to improve performance and demonstrate their status and values.

ETA: I'm convinced that a lot of gun owners, maybe most of them, treat guns as talismans. The vast majority never get real training, and most seldom shoot. For a lot of them, a gun is the equivalent of a lucky rabbits' foot, owned to ward off bad fortune.

[jh9]

From a social standpoint, there are some very unhealthy things going on in the gun culture that don't serve us well.

This statement stands on its own, and I don't know how many people would disagree with it. I don't.

I'm not sure treating guns as anything other than "serious weapons" (which is what I got out of the original post) is the real problem. Outside the fringe cases (Punisher skulls, 'you're fucked' dust covers, lego Glocks that look like toys) I don't know I'd say it's even a symptom.

You seem to be getting at personality types who are completely unconcerned with the damage they're doing to other people on any scale so long as they get their jollies. Aggressive open carriers and attention-seeking facetweets are examples you used. Guns in those cases usually seem like they're just a means to an end. Attention-seeking is the goal; a shitty tapco'd SKS is just how they get there. You could probably use terms like talismans/totems/fetishes/etc to describe the gun in those cases. They generally don't seem to have any spiritual or religious significance in that case; maybe "shibboleth" is a better description. Because now we get into cultural and identity stuff which seems to be what you're actually interested in with the whole "lifestyle talisman" thing. Religious decoration is just a distraction from that point.

[SiriusBlunder]

I've no idea who the Chipotle twins are. I originally figured some internet celebs, but are they open carry advocates or something?

Open carry dudes that caused Chipotle to ban firearms except for LEOs in their restaurants.

Chipotle asks customers not to bring firearms to stores (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/20/chipotle-dont-carry-guns-in-our-stores)

[willie]

I have hung around gun shops for 50 years. Before then I was spending time at a couple hardware stores that sold guns. 20 years ago I noticed more kids buying guns. They wanted what they saw in movies and on tv. As has been said, the internet has speeded up exposure to various types. Some rush in to buy them. Our level of consumerism is a factor. Many buy items out of impulse. I see very many persons buying guns, and some of them have no business with a firearm. I see dummies picking up AR's and running around the shop as they were entering a building. There does seem to be a fantasy playing in their heads. Cooper had a good term for these folks. He said they were dilettantes.

[NWshooter]

I purchase what I like and won't apologize or try to defend to anyone for what I buy.

Have a couple safe Queens that I might shoot once a year but I think the gun is beautiful and something my kids will appreciate being passed down to them.

People need to stop being so judgemental and worrying about what other people do.

[BehindBlueI's]

Open carry dudes that caused Chipotle to ban firearms except for LEOs in their restaurants.

Chipotle asks customers not to bring firearms to stores (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/20/chipotle-dont-carry-guns-in-our-stores)

Ah, ok. Not nearly as much fun as the Doublemint Twins. I honestly expected them to be some sort of instagram celebs or the like.

[jh9]

a similar meaning to the owners within their own cultural trappings.

If we don't restrict it to religious/spiritual significance then there's similarity between something like this:

https://www.ima-usa.com/products/original-u-s-native-american-owned-winchester-model-1873-38-40-rifle-with-octagonal-barrel-made-in-1893

and this:

https://www.collectorsfirearms.com/products/152823-beautiful-pair-of-engraved-colt-single-action-armies-c16964.html

Reminds me of a thread where nyeti/db was talking about engraved DA revolvers from the 20s or 30s or something being kinda popular amongst some period lawmen.

They didn't leave the factory like that. People that have been dead for decades modified them in a way that is relevant to the culture of the period. Everything there from Native American art to gaudy riverboat gambler is a snapshot in time. It's hard not to find that interesting.

[bofe954]

To me it lot of it can be summed up by George Carlin:

"Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?"

If I didn't do any competition/fun shooting or collecting I could get by with my slug gun for deer and my 340PD. For my age, disposition and lifestyle I probably don't need the 340PD either. Given we've decided to waste time on a firearm forum, most everybody here probably has something that isn't strictly a tool. I can point at other people's stuff and laugh, and someone can point at me and laugh. Here we are...

[Baldanders]

Perhaps, but it's interesting that, in a statement I wrote consisting of 107 words, that's the only one that's been fixated on and some seem to be offended by the association. I also used the term "lifestyle talisman ", but that has gone largely untouched. From a social standpoint, there are some very unhealthy things going on in the gun culture that don't serve us well. It doesn't matter if these things happened in antiquity. To that I say, "Well, no shit Captain Obvious." We don't live in bronze age Greece, or medieval England. We live here and now in 21st century USA with the attached concerns. Excusing all of this with the "muh rights" and "you do you bro" mentality doesn't benifit us, or make us stronger as a collective. I'd like to see some behavior that exhibits maturity and responsibility, rather than infantile ass hattery from people who should no better.

I'd like to have people consider how their actions reflect upon everyone else in the group, rather than pose on instaface with an AR while you pull your leggings down to your pubic bone, or put the "your fucked" dust cover on your rifle, or strut around the stop and rob with your SA sixgun in a fast draw holster (saw that just the other day). I wish people were mature enough to take just one second and think. "Who and what are my actions best serving?"

We constantly condemn the left on their behavior, and yet we seem to be completely unwilling to question or analyze the highly debatable behaviors and underlying pssychology of gun owners. Or rather, our condemnation doesn't proceed past posting a photo of the Chipolte Twins.

I share Trooper's concerns. "Fetish" has heavy sexual/abnormal psychology connotations in our language at the moment, so I tend to use the word "totem," thinking of the following definition I yanked from Google:

a person or thing regarded as being symbolic or representative of a particular quality or concept.

I am disturbed by photos with young women posing with longarms with the book of ancient wisdom their culture values, and usually some flag connected to that book, or the country they think the is the result of that ancient wisdom.

In situations like these, the gun not only is a totem representing freedom, it is also an implied threat. Don't forget I could kill you.

That attitude does little good for public discourse. And it inspires reckless gun use.

The Punisher emblem is another example of the same sort of totem, with a similar implied threat.

Marvel had the Punisher tell off two cops with his emblem in a comic sometime in the past few years. I believe he said something like "I'm a vigilante. You want a symbol, put a Captain America shield on your car."

When the gun becomes a symbol, the overall message using that symbol is often a threat.

[mmc45414]

I honestly expected them to be some sort of instagram celebs or the like.
They sorta were for a while a while back, you might have been out of the country...


To me it lot of it can be summed up by George Carlin:

"Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?"
I remember being in the audience hearing that live the first time I heard that.

I admit that the aesthetics of all of my guns are important to me, probably more than it should be. But I contend that I do not own a gun I won't lay down on the ground if I need to.

[BehindBlueI's]

If we don't restrict it to religious/spiritual significance then there's similarity between something like this:

https://www.ima-usa.com/products/original-u-s-native-american-owned-winchester-model-1873-38-40-rifle-with-octagonal-barrel-made-in-1893

and this:

https://www.collectorsfirearms.com/products/152823-beautiful-pair-of-engraved-colt-single-action-armies-c16964.html

Reminds me of a thread where nyeti/db was talking about engraved DA revolvers from the 20s or 30s or something being kinda popular amongst some period lawmen.

They didn't leave the factory like that. People that have been dead for decades modified them in a way that is relevant to the culture of the period. Everything there from Native American art to gaudy riverboat gambler is a snapshot in time. It's hard not to find that interesting.

I think the difference between a fetish and simply decorating is the notion the fetish grants some power or attribute. God's intervention, Dirty Harry's coolness, whatever. I think we often use this sort of thinking when we talk about guns as talismans, that people believe that their mere presence somehow prevents bad things from happening to them. That doesn't require any decoration at all.

[Jim Watson]

Wouldn't it suffice to say, as in many other threads: A Glock 19 is both necessary and sufficient.

[revchuck38]

Wouldn't it suffice to say, as in many other threads: A Glock 19 is both necessary and sufficient.

Yeah, but that doesn't make it desirable. ;)

[peterb]

I think the difference between a fetish and simply decorating is the notion the fetish grants some power or attribute. God's intervention, Dirty Harry's coolness, whatever. I think we often use this sort of thinking when we talk about guns as talismans, that people believe that their mere presence somehow prevents bad things from happening to them. That doesn't require any decoration at all.

Right. It’s the the difference between “I am a cool/righteous/deadly person with a gun” and “I am a cool/righteous/deadly person because I have this gun.”

[willie]

That word fetish sorta of scares me. Once I had an attractive young female student who had a fetish for old men. She hung out at nursing homes. After her second trip to prison, she got a job in a local morgue that has the county contract for picking up dead people killed in accidents, shootings, and such. Local funeral homes use this service too, even for embalming. I figure that if she picks up my body, she might cut off my ding-a-ling and save it in a jar. I was her favorite teacher. No smileys on this post. It's true. Like I have said before. I worked at a tough school.

[jh9]

I think the difference between a fetish and simply decorating is the notion the fetish grants some power or attribute. God's intervention, Dirty Harry's coolness, whatever. I think we often use this sort of thinking when we talk about guns as talismans, that people believe that their mere presence somehow prevents bad things from happening to them. That doesn't require any decoration at all.

It's not required, but like bright plumage you gotta let the other guy know your boomstick has a +1 to hit and damage. That's like half the point. ;)

[Baldanders]

Setting aside the politics, my belief is that firearms have become fetishes (attraction to an inanimate object) for many people. Part of it has resulted from people playing video games now having enough money to purchase the "cool guns" in those games. Part of it those same people buying what the cool people use(d), especially if it is hard to acquire. I see an intense interest for the 10mm version of the MP5 for this reason. I remember when the CZ 75 was not easily imported during the 1980s; it was described as a panacea for every known handgun issue, including capacity, action type (you choose), reliability, and firepower. Then with regular importation, the pistol became less a talisman and more another "wonder-nine"

A great example is the custom 1911 world where appearance is more important than function. Some smiths have a reputation for making beautiful pistols; however, those pistols rarely appear to be sold with any signs of wear. Nor is the function or reliability referenced or discussed. Fetishes, not tools.

I think of things like that more as status symbols. Like high-end watches with a billion complications that are dogshit at keeping time compared to a quarz action. 😉

[Joe in PNG]

No kink shaming!

[Baldanders]

One branch of the Moonies these days:

75925

That's a mass wedding. Gotta have the ARs to make it proper.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/y3dp8j/gun-church-that-worships-with-ar-15s-bought-a-40-acre-compound-in-texas-for-its-patriots

Reminds me of occult rituals with the athame.

[Borderland]

That word fetish sorta of scares me. Once I had an attractive young female student who had a fetish for old men. She hung out at nursing homes. After her second trip to prison, she got a job in a local morgue that has the county contract for picking up dead people killed in accidents, shootings, and such. Local funeral homes use this service too, even for embalming. I figure that if she picks up my body, she might cut off my ding-a-ling and save it in a jar. I was her favorite teacher. No smileys on this post. It's true. Like I have said before. I worked at a tough school.

I once worked with a woman who was around 40. She was married to guy about 80. He had a son that lived with them that was older than she was. She had no reservations about telling people that.

I also know a woman that was born in 1969. Her dad was born in 1899 and she has a younger sister. Her mom was born in 1939 in Germany where her parents were married around 1957. I guess the Army will do that to you.

[HeavyDuty]

Hey, I’m dating someone 15 years younger than me…

[Borderland]

Hey, I’m dating someone 15 years younger than me…

Have you met her parents? :D

[HeavyDuty]

Have you met her parents? :D

Do their ashes count?

[Borderland]

Do their ashes count?

Works for me. ;)

[Baldanders]

Hey, I’m dating someone 15 years younger than me…

My wife is 13 years older than me.

[Borderland]

My wife is older than me but I've been married three times. My first two wives were much younger than me. I'm a slow learner I guess.

[Joe in PNG]

I'll admit to an unusual fondness for pre WWI small automatic pistols and small pocket revolvers. I really want a display case full of various Ortgies, Bayard, Reid, Marlin, Sauer, FN, Savage, misc Velo Dog, and other classic mouse guns.

I've even got a warm place in my heart for S&W K frames and JMB's classics.

And I don't know where I'm going with this, but I want a 3" blued S&W Model 25 RB because reasons.

[Borderland]

I'll admit to an unusual fondness for pre WWI small automatic pistols and small pocket revolvers. I really want a display case full of various Ortgies, Bayard, Reid, Marlin, Sauer, FN, Savage, misc Velo Dog, and other classic mouse guns.

I've even got a warm place in my heart for S&W K frames and JMB's classics.

And I don't know where I'm going with this, but I want a 3" blued S&W Model 25 RB because reasons.

Here's a JMB classic for you.


https://i.ibb.co/wdbSdSc/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg (https://ibb.co/qD4NDNJ)

It's in my safe with a authorization as private property of a returning WW2 vet, my dad.

https://youtu.be/n99yIwuMTXY

[Joe in PNG]

Here's a JMB classic for you.


https://i.ibb.co/wdbSdSc/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg (https://ibb.co/qD4NDNJ)

It's in my safe with a authorization as private property of a returning WW2 vet, my dad.

Here's mine:
75930

Sadly, without the cool provenance.

[Borderland]

Here's mine:
75930

Sadly, without the cool provenance.

Same same. They all came from Europe. Mines been beat to shit.

[HeavyDuty]

My wife is 13 years older than me.


My wife is older than me but I've been married three times. My first two wives were much younger than me. I'm a slow learner I guess.

My wife was eight years older than me. This is a double generation jump.

[Borderland]

My wife was eight years older than me. This is a double generation jump.

Steady as she goes mate. Keep the look outs posted.

[45dotACP]

I think there's a big difference between owning multiple different firearms, owning a fancy or tricked out gun, and fetishizing them.

There was a road rage incident on Active Self Protection's YouTube page and there was no doubt in my mind that this guy was fetishizing gun culture. Everything from the zombie paraphernalia, to the small of back holster to the (plain Jane looking) Glock 19.

https://youtu.be/VWrmVjxPwYQ

This dude clearly felt that the firearm he carried imparted unto him some sort of power or authority. But one look at the situation he got himself in and it was clear he had no authority, no power and whatever confidence he thought he had dissolved into a total lack of control.

Guns are awesome. But if I think they're the biggest part of the equation of un-fucking my very worst day, I'm probably running the risk of fetishizing them too.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[Trooper224]

I've no idea who the Chipotle twins are. I originally figured some internet celebs, but are they open carry advocates or something?

I'm personally more interested in the notion of weapons as a fetish and the history of it, not because I'm offended by it but because it's interesting.

As far as if the starship trooper shotgun is bad for us as a whole, is it? If it gets more people interested in guns is that a bad thing? Sig's rainbow colors? My Model 29 because Dirty Harry? Are guns strictly for those who are "serious" about them, in whatever context you decide that to be, or is a broader base of gun owners increasing the political cost of trying to limit gun rights? There's lots of "serious" hunters who the term "Fudd" was coined for, after all.

Today, we would consider a fetish as something taken to the extreme of overemphasization, often but not always with a sexual connotation. For lack of a better term, modern society would consider this behavior abnormal. However, in antiquity this wasn't the case with the display of something like the male phallus. This was commonly seen as a symbol of virility and fertility. It wasn't seen as vulgar or obscene. This attitude didn't really develop until the Edwardian and Victorian eras, in western culture. I've seen early 16th century armors with male phallus engraved all over them. Likewise, study the armor made for Henry VIII, for foot combat at the Field of the Cloth of Gold tournament and note the very large steel codpiece. This wasn't considered obscene, but rather as an advertisement of Henry's masculinity . Religious symbols incorporated into weapons was quite common, as religion played a much greater role in everyday life than it does today. None of these were seen as extreme or outside the norm. So, we really can't judge them through a modern lense as a fetish, lifestyle talisman, etc., since for them their meanings ran much deeper into everyday life.

The comment that people really haven't changed throughout history is often voiced. This may be true in terms of ambition, desire for power and success, etc. However, the way in which people in ages past interpreted life and their place in it was often quite different than today, sometimes shockingly so to modern sensibilities.

[Caballoflaco]

I think there's a big difference between owning multiple different firearms, owning a fancy or tricked out gun, and fetishizing them.

There was a road rage incident on Active Self Protection's YouTube page and there was no doubt in my mind that this guy was fetishizing gun culture. Everything from the zombie paraphernalia, to the small of back holster to the (plain Jane looking) Glock 19.

https://youtu.be/VWrmVjxPwYQ

This dude clearly felt that the firearm he carried imparted unto him some sort of power or authority. But one look at the situation he got himself in and it was clear he had no authority, no power and whatever confidence he thought he had dissolved into a total lack of control.

Guns are awesome. But if I think they're the biggest part of the equation of un-fucking my very worst day, I'm probably running the risk of fetishizing them too.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

I thought you were going to post this one, which includes “operator style” shooting out your windshield while doing 90 on the interstate.


https://youtu.be/R9hR1IeNiUI

[Wondering Beard]

Religious symbols incorporated into weapons was quite common, as religion played a much greater role in everyday life than it does today. None of these were seen as extreme or outside the norm. So, we really can't judge them through a modern lense as a fetish, lifestyle talisman, etc., since for them their meanings ran much deeper into everyday life.

The comment that people really haven't changed throughout history is often voiced. This may be true in terms of ambition, desire for power and success, etc. However, the way in which people in ages past interpreted life and their place in it was often quite different than today, sometimes shockingly so to modern sensibilities.

This is an important point. Back then, religion wasn't just a belief that some people had, it defined reality (thus the wars of religion). Religious engraving on weapons represented something real (to them); the same cannot be really said for a lot people nowadays.

That said, I do think that what I'm calling "the Excalibur syndrome" (i.e. I have this great weapon therefore I cannot lose) existed then just as much as now.

[Joe in PNG]

Call it "Passion of the Sword".

[BehindBlueI's]

Today, we would consider a fetish as something taken to the extreme of overemphasization, often but not always with a sexual connotation. For lack of a better term, modern society would consider this behavior abnormal. However, in antiquity this wasn't the case with the display of something like the male phallus. This was commonly seen as a symbol of virility and fertility. It wasn't seen as vulgar or obscene. This attitude didn't really develop until the Edwardian and Victorian eras, in western culture. I've seen early 16th century armors with male phallus engraved all over them. Likewise, study the armor made for Henry VIII, for foot combat at the Field of the Cloth of Gold tournament and note the very large steel codpiece. This wasn't considered obscene, but rather as an advertisement of Henry's masculinity . Religious symbols incorporated into weapons was quite common, as religion played a much greater role in everyday life than it does today. None of these were seen as extreme or outside the norm. So, we really can't judge them through a modern lense as a fetish, lifestyle talisman, etc., since for them their meanings ran much deeper into everyday life.

The comment that people really haven't changed throughout history is often voiced. This may be true in terms of ambition, desire for power and success, etc. However, the way in which people in ages past interpreted life and their place in it was often quite different than today, sometimes shockingly so to modern sensibilities.

African art seems real penis heavy as well. Fertility being the reasoning listed on the placards. I did mean more of the religious/spiritual fetish, but the sexual/gender aspect is interesting as well. I recall that much of the Greek "heroic" statutes tended to be rather unimpressively "equipped" as it was considered gaudy otherwise. Standards certainly change.

[mmc45414]

I tried to look up a clip of the King of the Hill episode where Bill explained that the videos of Peggy's feet were not on a pornographic web site, it was a fetish website, but the search results didn't turn up any King of the Hill episodes...

[Yung]

https://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/2014/06/cargo-cult-carry-handle.html?m=1

[Crow Hunter]

African art seems real penis heavy as well. Fertility being the reasoning listed on the placards. I did mean more of the religious/spiritual fetish, but the sexual/gender aspect is interesting as well. I recall that much of the Greek "heroic" statutes tended to be rather unimpressively "equipped" as it was considered gaudy otherwise. Standards certainly change.

My wife and I went to a traveling Egyptian exhibit years ago at the Frist Center in Nashville.

While we were there my wife leaned over to me and whispered, "There are peckers on EVERYTHING!!".

I got in a giggling fit over that. I think people thought I was giggling over all the tally wackers adorning everything but I was actually giggling about my wife, leaning over with that wide-eyed innocent look in her eyes and whispering too loudly about it to me. It was quite a shock, being that she had just graduated from a Church of Christ College after having been brought up in a family that didn't even say the word "fart" because it was considered offensive.

:D

When I told her the Egyptian mythic origins of the world she damn near passed out. I saved the pharaonic recreation of the event as part of religious rituals for another time. I didn't want her to pass out.

[45dotACP]

I thought you were going to post this one, which includes “operator style” shooting out your windshield while doing 90 on the interstate.


https://youtu.be/R9hR1IeNiUI

Yeesh....No doubt Mr. Tactihipster in the truck felt that just because he had a gun that he definitely needed to use it, rather than use his brain. Like the presenter said, you definitely CAN shoot at someone for brandishing a firearm at you, but do you really think that's a great plan when you're going 90mph on the road as opposed to just getting in the slow lane, calling the cops, and hopping off at the next exit?

Again, a failure to see a gun as a PART of a strategy of self preservation, rather than a batman badge that permits you to go out in the world and right all of the wrongs. Dudes go around calling themselves "sheepdog" or "three percenters" or whatever identity they think their gun gives them. But it doesn't. Your gun doesn't make you anything more than an armed person.

While I don't know what the shooter was thinking, it seems likely that he placed too much emphasis on the shooting part.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Ah, coffee...you have well and truly kicked in, so I will go on a monologue.



I don't personally get much into collecting guns, or anything - I have a couple of oddball items with personal significance, like a 4506 I'll explain about in person but not on the internet...but for me, most of my guns are just these practical items that are either specific-purpose guns, multiples for training and volume, stuff like that. I do irrationally like the 1911 platform, so maybe that counts - but I don't collect them. I have a primary user, backups, and test platforms for working on and stuff. I'm not emotionally bonded to the Baer that is my primary user - I just couldn't replace it with something equivalent, for what I paid, so I'll probably never sell it.

Anyway in general I always say I don't really "get" the collector mentality. It's a bit like religion to me - I don't have that gene. People who are into it, are filling a need I don't have and can't entirely grasp, because I have never felt it. If you were born without the hunger circuit in your brain, you could consciously grasp the fact that other people feel an intrinsic motivation to eat, and you could eat, but you would never feel like you were satisfying a need. That's how religion is for me - I don't have that circuit. Since I also seem to lack a "collector" drive, it makes me wonder if they're somehow related, but that's just a random thought that popped into my head as a result of this thread so I haven't thought that through enough to know whether it's an idea worth pursuing.

But I also have this policy: I try never to demand that other people enjoy stuff the way I enjoy it. I don't relate to gundam'd out Civics but as long as they're not running me over in the street, if the owners are enjoying them, I'm happy they're happy. Well, by default, I'm probably indifferent about whether they're happy but if I talk to them and they seem nice, then I'm happy they're happy.

Similarly, I don't really care if other people fetishize their guns or anything - I do care about whether they do stupid shit with them, like flag me or cause legal headaches that seem likely to impact me. But if they want to pose with them on instagram, and that's the only thing they have them for, and the whole selection process was "this was in a video game I liked" I am not concerned with that.




Do I think there's a concerning broader social trend in which people are enfantilized for longer and longer and more and more men seem like fully-grown children to me? Oh, definitely. I'm sure the trend exists with women too, but A) I don't feel nearly as strongly about gatekeeping acceptable feminine behaviour, that's not something I feel entitled to do, and B) I don't walk around judging women the way I walk around judging men so I never really think about what the lengthy enfantilization does to them.

I absolutely look at men every single day, though, and think "why the hell don't you stand up straight, speak with authority, and command some freaking respect here. Your kids are look at you, dummy." (I'm at the park a lot so I mostly see dads. My wife, incidentally, tells me she has a roughly equivalent reaction to a lot of the moms.) They do seem like failures to launch, emotionally, to me. They seem like they're still in a really self-absorbed headspace and focused on fripperies and they often look extremely soft to me. I get the whole "looks can be deceiving" thing...but in my experience, there are subtle cues that your evolutionary brain picks up on that tell you how to rank-order status in men and so while you might deceive your conscious brain with looks, I am less convinced that your unconscious brain is getting deceived. Men are really good at organizing themselves into unspoken heirarchies and those heirarchies are frequently very stable, so personally, I'm comfortable with my take on the guys I see that I judge, good or bad.

I don't really connect that to the fetishization of objects, though. Maybe there's something there, but I don't intuitively see the connection. I guess if you fetishize guns and gun culture but don't build yourself into someone who gets respect, potentially there's a pretty nasty outcome that could happen, but I think that requires a whole third element: bad decision making about violence. Like I've met some airsofters who SERIOUSLY fetishize gun culture and I find it gag-inducing. Actually, if you go way back on this forum, back like a decade ago, I went OFF on the Chris Costa model shoot in Japan with all these photographers and him on a runway doing tactical poses and I was repulsed beyond the ability to express it rationally. I do genuinely hate that stuff. Hate it enough that I think everyone here thought I was nuts, actually. It fundamentally violates some core concept I have about acceptable male behaviour. I realize this conflicts a bit with my "enjoy it however you like" policy...but I guess there's just some absolutely bedrock wiring in my head that draws a line I can't erase about what men should be like.

BUT: do I think those guys are really likely to get into haywire confrontations? No, because I don't think it's the fetishizing of the gun culture that's really the issue there. I think dumb assholes who fetishize gun culture do dumb asshole stuff, maybe with guns. Dumb assholes who fetishize car or truck culture do dumb asshole stuff, maybe with cars and trucks in traffic and plow into somebody. But you take them out of the car or truck, they're still dumb assholes who will probably do some dumb asshole thing like have a bonfire while camping in California in August. So I don't think it's the fetishizing that's the real issue there.



executive summary:

dumb assholes - definitely a problem
fetishizing guns - not my thing but I don't have an issue with it per se
enfantilized adult men - I dislike this intensely and it gives me an involuntary response which I looked up and is apparently "disgust."
fetishizing guns as a byproduct of enfantilization - I'm skeptical of this hypothesis



woo caffeine

[Trooper224]

Yeesh....No doubt Mr. Tactihipster in the truck felt that just because he had a gun that he definitely needed to use it, rather than use his brain. Like the presenter said, you definitely CAN shoot at someone for brandishing a firearm at you, but do you really think that's a great plan when you're going 90mph on the road as opposed to just getting in the slow lane, calling the cops, and hopping off at the next exit?

Again, a failure to see a gun as a PART of a strategy of self preservation, rather than a batman badge that permits you to go out in the world and right all of the wrongs. Dudes go around calling themselves "sheepdog" or "three percenters" or whatever identity they think their gun gives them. But it doesn't. Your gun doesn't make you anything more than an armed person.

While I don't know what the shooter was thinking, it seems likely that he placed too much emphasis on the shooting part.

Often, it doesn't even make you that.

"Tactihipster" interwebz word win for the day.

[JRB]

Perhaps, but it's interesting that, in a statement I wrote consisting of 107 words, that's the only one that's been fixated on and some seem to be offended by the association. I also used the term "lifestyle talisman ", but that has gone largely untouched. From a social standpoint, there are some very unhealthy things going on in the gun culture that don't serve us well. It doesn't matter if these things happened in antiquity. To that I say, "Well, no shit Captain Obvious." We don't live in bronze age Greece, or medieval England. We live here and now in 21st century USA with the attached concerns. Excusing all of this with the "muh rights" and "you do you bro" mentality doesn't benifit us, or make us stronger as a collective. I'd like to see some behavior that exhibits maturity and responsibility, rather than infantile ass hattery from people who should no better.

I'd like to have people consider how their actions reflect upon everyone else in the group, rather than pose on instaface with an AR while you pull your leggings down to your pubic bone, or put the "your fucked" dust cover on your rifle, or strut around the stop and rob with your SA sixgun in a fast draw holster (saw that just the other day). I wish people were mature enough to take just one second and think. "Who and what are my actions best serving?"

We constantly condemn the left on their behavior, and yet we seem to be completely unwilling to question or analyze the highly debatable behaviors and underlying pssychology of gun owners. Or rather, our condemnation doesn't proceed past posting a photo of the Chipolte Twins.

Pardon my brevity here as this deserves a more proper response, but three ABQ PD officers got shot within walking distance of my house this morning, and at this time, I'm pretty sure one of them is a friend and has been at my house for a beer. Still waiting for word on that. Still a shitty fucking feeling either way. I'm on P-F just because I'm trying to distract myself. Maybe I should give this some time. Fuck. Either way, if I came across as prickly or shitty to you in my first response, it was absolutely not intentional. The 'Motherfucking Constitutional rights' quip was meant with a smiley face my text failed to convey. I've had a shitty week between the news and everything else going on right now. Please accept my sincere apologies for any affront you may have felt, you and your participation here deserved better.

With that said, I did address the 'lifestyle talisman' term in my very first response. I honestly just connect it all to conspicuous consumption. It's buying the thing for the sake of having it and hoping it impresses other like-minded people. This like-mindedness has made buying stuff like this into a political/social/cultural values statement just as much as it's buying a 'neat new shiny thing'. Just because the marketing also appeals to some Walter Mitty fantasy of being Super Squeal Team Six, or offers some passing use as an actual firearm doesn't seem to change that it's just modern marketing in play.

Second, this marketing cycle has accelerated violently, especially in the 'Gunternet' thanks to modern politics combining with social media and its very fast closed-feedback loops of 'algorithms' to appeal to your existing browsing/liking/etc behaviors. All the accelerationist bullshit is exacerbated by this, IMHO.

Third, I honestly believe it does matter that this has been happening for ages, because that means you're not lamenting some new change in society that deviates from common norms; instead, it means you're lamenting the *need for a change* in society due to the social media politically-charged marketing cycle of consumer firearms, that now appeals to a lot of folks that give guys like you and me some genuine cause for concern.

But I do not regret that the Constitution protects their rights as well. Lawmakers have proven time and again that they cannot be trusted to address this kind of issue effectively without fucking over lawful and responsible people that don't deserve it. I'm grateful the Constitution limits that in this country, at least somewhat.

Finally, a lot of the same naysaying about new, unconventional designs like that M&P 12 shotgun remind me starkly of the same sort of counter-talk I heard as a kid when I went to a favorite LGS with my Dad, and four of those then-newfangled 'Glock' pistols were in the display case. Lots of comparisons to 1911's and wheelguns were made, and all manner of failures, issues, concerns, and lack of durability or practicality were discussed and discussed at length. 30+ years later, the truth is that Glocks are outstanding as a duty pistol and that excellence takes away *nothing* from a sorted out wheel gun or 1911 in the hands of a skilled carrier.

Any expertise I could claim with shotguns for having instructed Soldiers on using Mossbergs is virtually insignificant in comparison to the skill and expertise other folks on this forum bring to the table. But in this layman's opinion, NFA laws and capacity advantages do offer a 'bullpump' a LOT of advantages over conventional designs, if the reliability and manual of arms issues can be overcome.

[Trooper224]

Pardon my brevity here as this deserves a more proper response, but three ABQ PD officers got shot within walking distance of my house this morning, and at this time, I'm pretty sure one of them is a friend and has been at my house for a beer. Still waiting for word on that. Still a shitty fucking feeling either way. I'm on P-F just because I'm trying to distract myself. Maybe I should give this some time. Fuck. Either way, if I came across as prickly or shitty to you in my first response, it was absolutely not intentional. The 'Motherfucking Constitutional rights' quip was meant with a smiley face my text failed to convey. I've had a shitty week between the news and everything else going on right now. Please accept my sincere apologies for any affront you may have felt, you and your participation here deserved better.

With that said, I did address the 'lifestyle talisman' term in my very first response. I honestly just connect it all to conspicuous consumption. It's buying the thing for the sake of having it and hoping it impresses other like-minded people. This like-mindedness has made buying stuff like this into a political/social/cultural values statement just as much as it's buying a 'neat new shiny thing'. Just because the marketing also appeals to some Walter Mitty fantasy of being Super Squeal Team Six, or offers some passing use as an actual firearm doesn't seem to change that it's just modern marketing in play.

Second, this marketing cycle has accelerated violently, especially in the 'Gunternet' thanks to modern politics combining with social media and its very fast closed-feedback loops of 'algorithms' to appeal to your existing browsing/liking/etc behaviors. All the accelerationist bullshit is exacerbated by this, IMHO.

Third, I honestly believe it does matter that this has been happening for ages, because that means you're not lamenting some new change in society that deviates from common norms; instead, it means you're lamenting the *need for a change* in society due to the social media politically-charged marketing cycle of consumer firearms, that now appeals to a lot of folks that give guys like you and me some genuine cause for concern.

But I do not regret that the Constitution protects their rights as well. Lawmakers have proven time and again that they cannot be trusted to address this kind of issue effectively without fucking over lawful and responsible people that don't deserve it. I'm grateful the Constitution limits that in this country, at least somewhat.

Finally, a lot of the same naysaying about new, unconventional designs like that M&P 12 shotgun remind me starkly of the same sort of counter-talk I heard as a kid when I went to a favorite LGS with my Dad, and four of those then-newfangled 'Glock' pistols were in the display case. Lots of comparisons to 1911's and wheelguns were made, and all manner of failures, issues, concerns, and lack of durability or practicality were discussed and discussed at length. 30+ years later, the truth is that Glocks are outstanding as a duty pistol and that excellence takes away *nothing* from a sorted out wheel gun or 1911 in the hands of a skilled carrier.

Any expertise I could claim with shotguns for having instructed Soldiers on using Mossbergs is virtually insignificant in comparison to the skill and expertise other folks on this forum bring to the table. But in this layman's opinion, NFA laws and capacity advantages do offer a 'bullpump' a LOT of advantages over conventional designs, if the reliability and manual of arms issues can be overcome.

There's a lot of validity in your statements and I think we're saying the same thing with slightly different verbiage.

I'm very sorry to hear about your local officers and no worries on the other stuff. Be well.

[Ed L]

Then there is a trend in decorating firearms in strange ways. If you must to decorate an AK, I would, much rather see an AK decorated like the one in this picture from the Ukraine. I have never decorated a gun or had a desire to, but I gotta admit that this Ukraine AK looks quite festive:

75992

Then there is this AR in Afghanistan. Their decorating style does not appeal to me at all. If I were to decorate an AR in this manner, Pat Rogers would reach down and smite me.

75997

[Caballoflaco]

Then there is a trend in decorating firearms in strange ways. If you must to decorate an AK, I would, much rather see an AK decorated like the one in this picture from the Ukraine. I have never decorated a gun or had a desire to, but I gotta admit that this Ukraine AK looks quite festive:

75992

Stop giving me ideas. Also, if those colors were just slightly more subdued that isn’t a terrible camp pattern at a distance.

If I end up with a floral painted AK I’m blaming you, since I’m a millennial and we don’t accept responsibility for our actions.

[thinking to myself, “I’d have to strip the camo off of an AK to paint it, but I do currently have an unpainted AR hmmm.”]

[Lex Luthier]

Stop giving me ideas. Also, if those colors were just slightly more subdued that isn’t a terrible camp pattern at a distance.

If I end up with a floral painted AK I’m blaming you, since I’m a millennial and we don’t accept responsibility for our actions.

[thinking to myself, “I’d have to strip the camo off of an AK to paint it, but I do currently have an unpainted AR hmmm.”]

An AK paint job based on Russian & Ukrainian textile design is kind of genius, really.

If you wanted to do an AR, you could start with Southwest Native American motifs, and add some 1950s streamlining and simplification.

76000

[JRB]

So, those wounded APD officers are doing about as good as can be hoped for. Turns out the officer shot in the arm was a friend of my old buddy, and he was at the hospital with him for several hours yesterday which led to my confusion. They repaired an artery in his arm and things are about as good as could be hoped, but he's still struggling with a lack of sensation. The officer shot in the neck is stable but still critical, responded to physical stimuli, and is surrounded by his family. Both are good men that Albuquerque is lucky to have behind a badge.

Lots of support for them now, since the news is still talking about it. It'll be the coming weeks/months where they'll need some help. Seems to happen like that every time. I'm hoping ..and praying... that both make a full recovery.


Then there is a trend in decorating firearms in strange ways. If you must to decorate an AK, I would, much rather see an AK decorated like the one in this picture from the Ukraine. I have never decorated a gun or had a desire to, but I gotta admit that this Ukraine AK looks quite festive:

...

Then there is this AR in Afghanistan. Their decorating style does not appeal to me at all. If I were to decorate an AR in this manner, Pat Rogers would reach down and smite me.

...


I'm personally digging the IBA over the motorcycle jacket. Very 21st century Mad Max!

[Rex G]

Just throwing this out there, because it seems that cave-folks have been making extra-finely-crafted hand axes, that were then not used for chopping and cutting things, since well before things were ever written down.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UnJIf_WTQs