Smith & Wesson (re)enters the pump gun market

[Tokarev]

https://youtu.be/zdWMTjaOYDA

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

[Bergeron]

I don't understand this category of shotgun. I'm not trained on defensive shotguns, and maybe that's why.

I find it amusing when designs first get put out by Kel-Tec get re-made at a higher quality and price point by other manufacturers. The controls appear more well-thought out than the KSG, but I'd go for a 870 or 590 SBS way before this if I wanted a short pump action.

Sure, this gun give capacity, and in spades, but that doesn't seem as important in a defensive context, and pumping is slow in a competitive context. The MLOK slots on the handguard looked like they might have been steel inserts into that big plastic forearm, which is good. I still get the heebies watching video of people slamming vertical-forearm "bullpumps" (thanks, James Reeves, for that word) back and forth so close to the muzzle and without handstops.

I do have a dumb, sci-fi video game looking shotgun with my Saiga-12, and it's fun to drag that thing out to matches, but I've never relied on it as a defensive weapon. This S&W seems unsuited to competition shooting, because even for the capacity, the reloading looks real slow.

I wish S&W well, but I don't understand why this gun is what attracted investment dollars.

[HCM]

I don't understand this category of shotgun. I'm not trained on defensive shotguns, and maybe that's why.

I find it amusing when designs first get put out by Kel-Tec get re-made at a higher quality and price point by other manufacturers. The controls appear more well-thought out than the KSG, but I'd go for a 870 or 590 SBS way before this if I wanted a short pump action.

Sure, this gun give capacity, and in spades, but that doesn't seem as important in a defensive context, and pumping is slow in a competitive context. The MLOK slots on the handguard looked like they might have been steel inserts into that big plastic forearm, which is good. I still get the heebies watching video of people slamming vertical-forearm "bullpumps" (thanks, James Reeves, for that word) back and forth so close to the muzzle and without handstops.

I do have a dumb, sci-fi video game looking shotgun with my Saiga-12, and it's fun to drag that thing out to matches, but I've never relied on it as a defensive weapon. This S&W seems unsuited to competition shooting, because even for the capacity, the reloading looks real slow.

I wish S&W well, but I don't understand why this gun is what attracted investment dollars.

Gun companies exist to make money, not guns.

[Trooper224]

Regardless of its workability or viability, I'm sure they'll sell a metric tone to the YouTube commandos and the Fortnight crowd. The Judge still sells big for Taurus after all.

[JWintergreen]

Ugh...

It sure would be nice to see a company offer a quality conventional pump shotgun with a 18-20" barrel, and a full length mag tube, to compete with the Mossberg 590/590a1 series. Thanks to import restrictions, and Remington's woes, Mossberg has a monopoly in this area right now. The market is wide open. Hopefully, Roundhill will be smart enough to market the 870 Police Magnum to the civilian market, and increase QC on the Express lineup.

[BehindBlueI's]

Regardless of its workability or viability, I'm sure they'll sell a metric tone to the YouTube commandos and the Fortnight crowd. The Judge still sells big for Taurus after all.

...which S&W also jumped on with the Governor.

Meanwhile, still no key-hole free N-frames.

[Bergeron]

No 9mm J- or K-frames either.

No 10mm M&P, but I doubt those would sell as well as this "bullpump".

[Borderland]

No 9mm J- or K-frames either.

No 10mm M&P, but I doubt those would sell as well as this "bullpump".

A J frame 9mm with moon clips would be nice. Instead we keep getting 357 J frames. Ouch.

[BobM]

A J frame 9mm with moon clips would be nice. Instead we keep getting 357 J frames. Ouch.

I shot a co-workers 940 back in the early 90s and found the recoil excessive for my taste. At the time I enjoyed shooting 125 grain magnum loads from my SP101. The 940 seemed like a good idea as we carried 9mm pistols at the time but it didn’t seem to last long in the S&W lineup.

[MrInox]

No 9mm J- or K-frames either.

No 10mm M&P, but I doubt those would sell as well as this "bullpump".




As James said at the beginning of the video, there’s more to come from S&W in the very near future and the M&P12 isn’t the best of it.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Muh truck gun with 20 mini-shells!

Oh, I don't have a truck.

[Doc_Glock]

No 9mm J- or K-frames either.

Sigh. I really want a 9mm K frame.

[Wheeler]

Meanwhile, a local gat store had some trade-in S&W 3000s with wood stocks for between $250-$300 depending on condition…

[nalesq]

I don’t understand why all new shotgun designs, especially bullpups, aren’t semi-automatic.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Hambo]

Meanwhile, still no key-hole free N-frames.

Sigh...


Meanwhile, a local gat store had some trade-in S&W 3000s with wood stocks for between $250-$300 depending on condition…

Dammit. If I ran across that I'd buy 2-3 of them.

[HCM]

75857

[TCinVA]

I don’t understand why all new shotgun designs, especially bullpups, aren’t semi-automatic.

Probably because designing a system that self feeds the wide variety of ammunition available for shotguns is expensive and difficult and even with more conventional shotgun design there's only a handful that actually work very well.


I don't understand this category of shotgun. I'm not trained on defensive shotguns, and maybe that's why.

No, that's not it. The people who are making these things don't know much about defensive shotguns either.

The overriding goals here seem to be chasing capacity and a short OAL. The weight, the complication of loading, introducing significant offset...it sacrifices a number of things that make the shotgun good at close range to chase capacity and AR controls, neither of which are really a benefit to the defensive use of the shotgun.

Worse still, they achieve a short OAL while simultaneously making a length of pull that is entirely too long for even above average sized males, ensuring that the gun will kick the ass of most people who try to shoot it. You can see it in the videos hitting youtube:

<span style="color: rgb(5, 5, 5); font-family: &quot;Segoe UI Historic&quot;, &quot;Segoe UI&quot;, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
https://youtu.be/zdWMTjaOYDA

Everyone who you see shooting that thing is stretched out and getting their shit handed to them by the gun...which is what happens when the LOP is too long, you're stuck with pistol grips that force a locked wrist, and you generally don't know how to use shotguns well. (Which most don't)

If I had to guess, I'd say the S&W version here is going to be more durable and reliable than the finicky Kel-Tec. I've seen precisely one specimen make it through a class without problems. I recently had a client who loved his Kel-Tec in class even though it had to go off the line for like 30 minutes while another instructor tried to unfuck it to get it to work again. Which it did only sporadically. I hope that person buys the S&W and find that it at least works properly.

But if that turns out to be true, it's a good execution of a terrible idea.

This shotgun was designed to sell shotguns to people who don't know anything about shotguns. And shotguns are gaining ground as home defense weapons lately because everybody from Joe Biden to Dave Chapelle is telling people they're great. I have a feeling I know a lot more about comedy than Dave Chapelle knows about shotguns, and I'm reasonably sure I could plan a better exit from a two-decade war than Biden pulled off, but neither of those people know a goddamn thing about defensive shotgunnery. So, yes, I'm saying I'd be better at their job than they would be at mine...but people actually take the information seriously and companies need to sell things. So I expect to see even more ridiculous shotguns in the near future.

Maybe lever-action shotguns will be next, spurred on by all the people who don't have meaningful experience actually trying to run a lever gun seriously enough to find out that they are finicky as shit and kind of suck.

Combine widespread ignorance with bad information spewed by people who don't know anything and a hunger for novelty and this is the result.

Buying something like an 870 or a 1301, configuring it properly and learning how to use it is nowhere near as enticing, it would seem, as buying goofy shit. Still, there will be people who actually want a defensive tool and will seek out training and in the process will learn why goofy configurations suck. And then they'll buy an 870 or a 1301 and configure it properly. And they'll occasionally scream some wisdom into the void and maybe save a few people the bother.

And the rest...well...they'll be on youtube, facetweet, and instabook getting their shit rocked when they shoot a goofy shotgun.

[Hambo]

I watched the TFB video. At 2:00 he apparently runs out of ammo in one tube and fucks around for 6-7 seconds getting up and running. I'm sure part of that is unfamiliarity, but still... Then S&W guy tells him the secret of easy loading: just tilt it over, stick your tongue out, and hope for the best. OK, fuck this thing.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

In the video, it did not look like so much fun to shoot. The woman got a significant push back against her shoulder. It will sell for movie prop departments looking for a Bug (Starship Troopers ) or a Colonial Marines (Aliens) gun.

[TCinVA]

I watched the TFB video. At 2:00 he apparently runs out of ammo in one tube and fucks around for 6-7 seconds getting up and running. I'm sure part of that is unfamiliarity, but still...

That's just the way it works with bullpup designs.

To quote Ashton, loading one of those things is like being a proctologist working from another room.

(He could also do Dave Chapelle's job better than Dave Chapelle could do his)

[Borderland]

Yeah, autoloader for sure. I've messed around with a few 1100's. If you just use the right size ammo and keep them clean they run pretty well, at least the ones I had did.

[Wheeler]

Sigh...



Dammit. If I ran across that I'd buy 2-3 of them.

I'm sorely tempted to grab one but, I'm also contemplating another Pizza Gat and some form of manual action .308 and/or .223...

I can hook you up with their contact info. I'm pretty sure they'd ship you a couple. :)

[farscott]

...which S&W also jumped on with the Governor.

Ran into a shooting buddy with a Governor in a nylon chest rig. He said he uses it as a snake gun. I figured I would do better to stay quiet. In fairness, where we were it is not uncommon to run across snakes, a few of which are poisonous, but I cannot imagine a good pattern with shot with a rifled handgun barrel. And if one is going to use a handgun round, I rather have more barrel and less cylinder length.

Make money by selling what people will buy, not what makes more sense as a tool and does not sell ....

[mrozowjj]

Probably because designing a system that self feeds the wide variety of ammunition available for shotguns is expensive and difficult and even with more conventional shotgun design there's only a handful that actually work very well.



No, that's not it. The people who are making these things don't know much about defensive shotguns either.

The overriding goals here seem to be chasing capacity and a short OAL. The weight, the complication of loading, introducing significant offset...it sacrifices a number of things that make the shotgun good at close range to chase capacity and AR controls, neither of which are really a benefit to the defensive use of the shotgun.

Worse still, they achieve a short OAL while simultaneously making a length of pull that is entirely too long for even above average sized males, ensuring that the gun will kick the ass of most people who try to shoot it. You can see it in the videos hitting youtube:

<span style="color: rgb(5, 5, 5); font-family: &quot;Segoe UI Historic&quot;, &quot;Segoe UI&quot;, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; white-space: pre-wrap;">
https://youtu.be/zdWMTjaOYDA

Everyone who you see shooting that thing is stretched out and getting their shit handed to them by the gun...which is what happens when the LOP is too long, you're stuck with pistol grips that force a locked wrist, and you generally don't know how to use shotguns well. (Which most don't)

If I had to guess, I'd say the S&W version here is going to be more durable and reliable than the finicky Kel-Tec. I've seen precisely one specimen make it through a class without problems. I recently had a client who loved his Kel-Tec in class even though it had to go off the line for like 30 minutes while another instructor tried to unfuck it to get it to work again. Which it did only sporadically. I hope that person buys the S&W and find that it at least works properly.

But if that turns out to be true, it's a good execution of a terrible idea.

This shotgun was designed to sell shotguns to people who don't know anything about shotguns. And shotguns are gaining ground as home defense weapons lately because everybody from Joe Biden to Dave Chapelle is telling people they're great. I have a feeling I know a lot more about comedy than Dave Chapelle knows about shotguns, and I'm reasonably sure I could plan a better exit from a two-decade war than Biden pulled off, but neither of those people know a goddamn thing about defensive shotgunnery. So, yes, I'm saying I'd be better at their job than they would be at mine...but people actually take the information seriously and companies need to sell things. So I expect to see even more ridiculous shotguns in the near future.

Maybe lever-action shotguns will be next, spurred on by all the people who don't have meaningful experience actually trying to run a lever gun seriously enough to find out that they are finicky as shit and kind of suck.

Combine widespread ignorance with bad information spewed by people who don't know anything and a hunger for novelty and this is the result.

Buying something like an 870 or a 1301, configuring it properly and learning how to use it is nowhere near as enticing, it would seem, as buying goofy shit. Still, there will be people who actually want a defensive tool and will seek out training and in the process will learn why goofy configurations suck. And then they'll buy an 870 or a 1301 and configure it properly. And they'll occasionally scream some wisdom into the void and maybe save a few people the bother.

And the rest...well...they'll be on youtube, facetweet, and instabook getting their shit rocked when they shoot a goofy shotgun.

Pretty much this to a T. A bullpup shotgun is a terrible idea only suitable for people that don't actually shoot guns; they look cool, can't wait to see it in Aliens 6 or some other sci-fi movie but from an actual usability stand point it's a bunch of cons with very little pros. This will be bought by a bunch of people, shot half a dozen times over the course of several years and that is fine but it doesn't really excite me.

With a bullpup rifle the reloads are a bit slower but it's still manageable because you can add 30 rounds with only a marginally slower reload time compared to a non-bullpup.

With a shotgun you have limited rounds to begin with and reloading was already slow. A bullpup shotgun is going to require a ton of extra training to make it not suck all so that you can have a few extra rounds at the start.

Not that 3-gun is the end all be all but I'm imagining if you were to design a course of fire to require 30 shells and put two guys with limited experience give one of them this or the kel-tec fully loaded and the other a 1300 fully loaded I would be shocked if the person with the 1300 didn't have a better time.

[Trooper224]

In the video, it did not look like so much fun to shoot. The woman got a significant push back against her shoulder. It will sell for movie prop departments looking for a Bug (Starship Troopers ) or a Colonial Marines (Aliens) gun.

I wouldn't take it on a stand up mission let alone a bug hunt.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Rate of fire and reloads - too slow for fast zombies. I guess I'm not impressed, I have my Winchester 1300 Defender that I used for Givens and Moses classes and shot in some local matches. Thought about the 1301 but really have no need. Watching the video and with my screwed up right shoulder (lefty here), that racking looks like it would be horrible.

[Wheeler]

Ran into a shooting buddy with a Governor in a nylon chest rig. He said he uses it as a snake gun. I figured I would do better to stay quiet. In fairness, where we were it is not uncommon to run across snakes, a few of which are poisonous, but I cannot imagine a good pattern with shot with a rifled handgun barrel. And if one is going to use a handgun round, I rather have more barrel and less cylinder length.

Make money by selling what people will buy, not what makes more sense as a tool and does not sell ....

.22 caliber snakeshot/ratshot is only good for about 6'. The .410 revolvers do a fair bit better than that with quite a few more pellets. They are quite handy for snakes and easier to tote than an actual shotgun. I don't now one nor do I want one but I can appreciate the utility they offer.

I watched a guy run a Governor at an indoor IDPA match a few years ago. He did quite well with it shooting .45 LC ammo.

[MandoWookie]

I watched the TFB video. At 2:00 he apparently runs out of ammo in one tube and fucks around for 6-7 seconds getting up and running. I'm sure part of that is unfamiliarity, but still... Then S&W guy tells him the secret of easy loading: just tilt it over, stick your tongue out, and hope for the best. OK, fuck this thing.

Also from the video, he states that there are 'loading assist' buttons to make stuffing the tubes easier, but if pressed to hard will eject whatever is loaded back out the tube. The whole "14+1 rounds!" thing kinda loses its luster when getting it loaded to capacity apparently takes three hands and the dexterity of a professional juggler. And you have to manually switch tanks halfway through that capacity, so you are gonna have a 'click' instead of a 'bang' right in the middle of your string of fire.

And the package just seems so dang bulky in every way other than overall length. I just dont see it being easier to manage than an 870 in most situations.

Edit to add:
Also , Smith will shit out this keltec copy and paste, but discontinue the M&P45c? Or improve the sights on the J-frame?

[Joe in PNG]

Sadly, there's always a market for upscale derp.

[LOKNLOD]

Gun companies exist to make money, not guns.

As I say at work: "We're here to make dollars, not sense"

[Borderland]

Ran into a shooting buddy with a Governor in a nylon chest rig. He said he uses it as a snake gun. I figured I would do better to stay quiet. In fairness, where we were it is not uncommon to run across snakes, a few of which are poisonous, but I cannot imagine a good pattern with shot with a rifled handgun barrel. And if one is going to use a handgun round, I rather have more barrel and less cylinder length.

Make money by selling what people will buy, not what makes more sense as a tool and does not sell ....

I just load bird shot in 357 cases to use in my model 36. We don't have poisonous snakes here but rats are sometime a problem. I've killed a few with this load. Note. Without a bullet a 357 case will work in a 38 chamber.

It goes something like this if you don't mind the southern dialect y'all .

https://youtu.be/_mYvA1dJ4LY

I cant see carrying a Governor for a snake gun, it's a big revolver, The price of 410 shotgun ammo will stop your heart from functioning, about a buck a round.

[awp_101]

Buying something like an 870 or a 1301, configuring it properly and learning how to use it is nowhere near as enticing, it would seem, as buying goofy shit.
Every one of these that gets sold potentially saves another 1301 for the ones who know.


As I say at work: "We're here to make dollars, not sense"
Consider that stolen because I can get loads of mileage out of it at my shop.;)

[revchuck38]

Y'all know those guys who bought .460 and .500 S&W X frames and one box of ammo, put a cylinder's worth of ammo through the gun, cleaned it, and stuck it in the safe, never again to see the light of day? My guess is that they'll be buying these like hotcakes.

I wonder how these would work with push-pull? It didn't look like anyone in the video was using it.

[Joe in PNG]

As I say at work: "We're here to make dollars, not sense"

Outside of the contract sales, it's the people who have a regular Carry Rotation that buy the most guns.

[TheNewbie]

As James said at the beginning of the video, there’s more to come from S&W in the very near future and the M&P12 isn’t the best of it.

I’m interested in what else they will be putting out, and when.

[Borderland]

Outside of the contract sales, it's the people who have a regular Carry Rotation that buy the most guns.

I'll take people who don't carry the same pistol exclusively year round for 500 Alex.

[Joe in PNG]

I'll take people who don't carry the same pistol exclusively week round for 500 Alex.

Fixed it for you.

[Coyotesfan97]

I wouldn't take it on a stand up mission let alone a bug hunt.

You secure that shit Hudson!

[MandoWookie]

Gotta love it when an LEO is lecturing a career NCO about the inherent responsibilities in Constitutional rights. 2020 sucked enough being deployed through Turkey, Iran, and COVID but 2021 is sure steaming up to be a fucking contender.

I thought we were having a discussion, in which case I'd be really interested in you elaborating on those differences because I see no difference. Humanity has been obsessing about their weapons and making their weapons prettier than needed throughout every recorded culture across all of recorded time.
But if you're more interested in a self-aggrandizing musing about people daring to like guns you don't like, I'd invite you to consider the GD section instead of the tech sections.


I know the new Smith shotgun is stupid, but this is not a unique period in history for stupid guns being sold.
I mean, has anybody looked through the old back issues of gun magazines from the 80s? Cobray anyone?

[Hambo]

Also from the video, he states that there are 'loading assist' buttons to make stuffing the tubes easier, but if pressed to hard will eject whatever is loaded back out the tube. The whole "14+1 rounds!" thing kinda loses its luster when getting it loaded to capacity apparently takes three hands and the dexterity of a professional juggler. And you have to manually switch tanks halfway through that capacity, so you are gonna have a 'click' instead of a 'bang' right in the middle of your string of fire.

And the package just seems so dang bulky in every way other than overall length. I just dont see it being easier to manage than an 870 in most situations.

Edit to add:
Also , Smith will shit out this keltec copy and paste, but discontinue the M&P45c? Or improve the sights on the J-frame?

In a video game it won't be hard to reload, and you'll actually need 14 rounds of 12ga for zombies. I agree that S&W could do other things and still make lots of money, but until they hire one of us as CEO, that's not going to happen.

[Navin Johnson]

If this is a tax on stupid people to help fund real stuff (642 et al. with sights, M&P 15 pistols in useful configs., M&P 9s that are accurate, a line of TDA M&Ps) I am all for it.

[GearFondler]

My 2 cents... If you need more than 7 +1 12g in a civilian context you need to buy your drugs in a better neighborhood... and you should have brought an AR.

[peterb]

I just load bird shot in 357 cases to use in my model 36. We don't have poisonous snakes here but rats are sometime a problem. I've killed a few with this load. Note. Without a bullet a 357 case will work in a 38 chamber.

It goes something like this if you don't mind the southern dialect y'all .

https://youtu.be/_mYvA1dJ4LY

I cant see carrying a Governor for a snake gun, it's a big revolver, The price of 410 shotgun ammo will stop your heart from functioning, about a buck a round.

To me, .38/.357 shot loads in a smoothbore j-frame or LCR would make sense if you wanted a dedicated “snake gun”. Small, light, easy to carry. It’d be interesting to convert a used one to a smoothbore and see how it patterned.

[Borderland]

To me, .38/.357 shot loads in a smoothbore j-frame or LCR would make sense if you wanted a dedicated “snake gun”. Small, light, easy to carry. It’d be interesting to convert a used one to a smoothbore and see how it patterned.

It wouldn't take very long and the cost would be minimal to ream the rifling out of a revolver. The patterns would improve, no doubt. That would be my approach if I needed a serious snake swatter. I have an old Taurus 85 (S&W 36 copy) that isn't good for anything except shooting rats and snakes. It has a canted barrel so useless past 5 yards. I might look into that.

[Borderland]

My 2 cents... If you need more than 7 +1 12g in a civilian context you need to buy your drugs in a better neighborhood... and you should have brought an AR.

The Red Army didn't run through the streets of Berlin in 1945 with shotguns. History lesson #1.

[LHS]

The Red Army didn't run through the streets of Berlin in 1945 with shotguns. History lesson #1.

Quite a few of them ran through the streets of Berlin in 1945 with Mosins. Doesn't make it a good choice for pretty much anything.

[LHS]

And yeah, as usual Tim brings the eloquence and specificity to the argument. Me, I just went out and made a meme.

75895

[Zincwarrior]

Quite a few of them ran through the streets of Berlin in 1945 with Mosins. Doesn't make it a good choice for pretty much anything.

In Soviet Russia, you don't run around with Mosin. Mosin runs around with YOU!

A PPsH might be quite good for home defense...

[Hambo]

and you should have brought an AR.

Not if you paired up the S&W bullpup with a Keltec P50 BUG.

[Borderland]

Quite a few of them ran through the streets of Berlin in 1945 with Mosins. Doesn't make it a good choice for pretty much anything.

Once the SMG was in full production it was the weapon of choice for the Red Army, not the Mosin, and was developed and produced by the millions before the Battle of Berlin.



In 1943, an even simpler PPS43 submachinegun entered production which had a lower rate of fire and required less than three hours to produce! However, the PPsH was by then being manufactured on such a large scale that the PPS never really replaced it. more than six million PPsHs were manufactured during World War II, compared to “only” two million PPS43s.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/why-russia%E2%80%99s-type-49-%E2%80%98burp-gun%E2%80%99-was-communist%E2%80%99s-weapon-choice-177488

[mrozowjj]

In Soviet Russia, you don't run around with Mosin. Mosin runs around with YOU!

A PPsH might be quite good for home defense...


I mean 800 rpm seems perfercly reasonable to me for homd defense. :)

[revchuck38]

I mean 800 rpm seems perfercly reasonable to me for homd defense. :)

Don't forget ear pro with this one. :)

[TDA]

Obviously the weakness of the shotgun is limited capacity, but other than that we've got some really good shotguns. The bullplop phenomenon seems like a kind of half assed attempt to address watching Lena Miculek run shotguns on Instagram and feeling bad about how little I drill my reloads. There's nothing to buy for that, I've tried them all.

ETA: Can I use my existing M&P backstraps with that grip though?

[Wondering Beard]

A PPsH might be quite good for home defense...

I think we should mandate a PPsH in every household.

[Tokarev]

Obviously the weakness of the shotgun is limited capacity... There's nothing to buy for that, I've tried them all.


Where we at with mag-fed shotguns?

It has been a number of years ago but I messes around with a Saiga quite a bit. The gun had some strong points but the biggest failing was the magazine. To clarify I found that leaving a loaded mag in the gun would deform the top shell from pressure against the bottom of the bolt carrier. Once deformed the top shell would not feed. This meant constant rotation of the top round. Not a huge deal but not ideal either.

Do the mag-fed 870s and etc have the same issue?

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

[LJP]

I was moderately interested when I first saw S&W teasing something new on the ‘grams… then I was profoundly disappointed. I’ll keep my 870P SBS.

[Screwball]

The controls, choke, and likely QC will be awesome over the KSG. That being said… not interested.

I did the KSG back when Trump got elected (along with a Tavor… that I still have). It was an ok shotgun, but had to do a lot of work to get it closer to what S&W is likely at. Biggest issue is the two tubes. Going to get to a point where you hear a click… but when you shoot traditional shotguns, that means reload. Just isn’t as beneficial unless you really train on it…

Now, someone is going to say, “it is just a quick reload.” Personally, a quick reload is me running my Remington dry, opening the action, tossing a round directly into the chamber, close the action, and shoot. That might sound like a lot, but I feel it is superior than diagnosing an empty tube in a KSG. And then you get the guys saying they will run slugs in one and buckshot in the other. That will be an interesting scenario when stress comes into the mix (worse than drawing your gun instead of the taser).

Before the KSG, I had one of those JIC Mossbergs… which was a nice idea, but Mossberg QC is on par with KelTec (the threads of the bead sight were protruding into the barrel on the Mossberg). I got rid of the KSG due to how unique it was; mainly the two tubes. An aside… the fact that I could select neither tube (selector in the center position), and that be done somewhat easily, having a gun that will not feed/function… was the death nail with that gun. I wonder if the S&W version will have a middle position where you won’t have either tube feeding. And those tube brakes to “allow” easier loading/unloading… that looks fun (heavy sarcasm).

I’ve mainly been a Remington guy. Both of my hunting shotguns are 11-87s. I have an 870 Police next to my bed, but the gun that replaced the KSG was a TAC-14. To me, rather go with something proven and I have a metric crap ton of training behind… than the “latest/greatest.”

For box magazines… hard pass. Tube designs are perfect for shotgun shells. Never had any deform in a tube before. Sort of the opposite of rifle cartridges… those are better stacked vertically than in a tube (tip/primer interaction).

[GearFondler]

(along with a Tavor… that I still have)

What are your thoughts on the TS12 you kept?

[mrozowjj]

Where we at with mag-fed shotguns?

It has been a number of years ago but I messes around with a Saiga quite a bit. The gun had some strong points but the biggest failing was the magazine. To clarify I found that leaving a loaded mag in the gun would deform the top shell from pressure against the bottom of the bolt carrier. Once deformed the top shell would not feed. This meant constant rotation of the top round. Not a huge deal but not ideal either.

Do the mag-fed 870s and etc have the same issue?

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The biggest issue with box mag shotgun shells is rim lock. Because the shells have a rim you have to be very careful about how the magazine is designed to prevent that and either no one is interested or no one can figure out how to do it reliably.

Ironically a drum mag or I guess I should say something along the lines of a giant revolver cylinder might work but that's going to be a cumbersome magazine to carry and reload.

[Screwball]

What are your thoughts on the TS12 you kept?

Wasn’t the shotgun, but the SAR. It was a bullpup celebration. [emoji6]

Sorry if that wasn’t clear in my post.

[Tokarev]

The biggest issue with box mag shotgun shells is rim lock. Because the shells have a rim you have to be very careful about how the magazine is designed to prevent that and either no one is interested or no one can figure out how to do it reliably.

Ironically a drum mag or I guess I should say something along the lines of a giant revolver cylinder might work but that's going to be a cumbersome magazine to carry and reload.Never had a problem with this in my Saiga.

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[Zincwarrior]

I think we should mandate a PPsH in every household.

My Slavic ancestors agree wholeheartedly.

[Bergeron]

Where we at with mag-fed shotguns?

It has been a number of years ago but I messes around with a Saiga quite a bit. The gun had some strong points but the biggest failing was the magazine. To clarify I found that leaving a loaded mag in the gun would deform the top shell from pressure against the bottom of the bolt carrier. Once deformed the top shell would not feed. This meant constant rotation of the top round. Not a huge deal but not ideal either.

Do the mag-fed 870s and etc have the same issue?

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I've got a Saiga, and it's a beastly action competition shotgun- but I'd pass on it for anything defense oriented. Capacity is not what I really need in a defensive shotgun. My experience mirrors yours, leaving a mag loaded and in the gun deforms the top round. Plus, the mags are huge and bulky. I haven't seen rimlock, but I've never messed with drums, either.

A fun gun, a powerful competition tool, but to me, mine is not a defensive weapon.

[Joe in PNG]

Having babysat a Saiga 12, the larger cap mags just feel huge and unwieldy, a long heavy awkward thing hanging off the bottom.

[Wonder9]

14.5" LOP is garbage juice.

[Edster]

You secure that shit Hudson!

After a full day of passive-aggressive polite business gibberish, this forum is a refreshing breath of cigar smoke-filled air.

[GearFondler]

14.5" LOP is garbage juice.Wow... And with no feasible way to shorten it I presume. That's garbage juice on fire.

[Coyotesfan97]

After a full day of passive-aggressive polite business gibberish, this forum is a refreshing breath of cigar smoke-filled air.

Hey Sarge you can get lip cancer smoking those?

Report to Bay 12. Grab some cornbread on the way. :cool:

[Joe in PNG]

An honest to goodness better choice. Let me introduce you to a personal friend of mine: Nerf Ltd Aliens M41-A Pulse Rifle (https://hasbropulse.com/products/nerf-lmtd-aliens-m41-a-blaster)

76008

[MistWolf]

Meanwhile, a local gat store had some trade-in S&W 3000s with wood stocks for between $250-$300 depending on condition…

So, for $600 and a roll of gaffer’s tape, you could have a double-double that’s easier to reload and enough money left over to pay for a shotgun class.

[TCinVA]

14.5" LOP is garbage juice.

Exactly. Let's take the most critical dimension of a shotgun that is most responsible for their reputation as brutes to shoot, and make it worse. That'll work out GREAT.

[MistWolf]

It wouldn't take very long and the cost would be minimal to ream the rifling out of a revolver. The patterns would improve, no doubt. That would be my approach if I needed a serious snake swatter. I have an old Taurus 85 (S&W 36 copy) that isn't good for anything except shooting rats and snakes. It has a canted barrel so useless past 5 yards. I might look into that.

Don’t forget to include the $200 NFA tax in your build budget.

[peterb]

Don’t forget to include the $200 NFA tax in your build budget.

Hmmm……haven’t folks used “rifling” with no twist(straight grooves) to get around that?

[mtnbkr]

I'm unclear on the need for a dedicated snake gun. The one time I needed to shoot a snake, I did so from about 4' away using Speer 38spec shot shells out of a 4" GP100. One shot nearly decapitated the snake (head was dangling by a thin piece of meat, snake was DRT). That seems plenty effective out to a distance reasonable for killing snakes (further away and you can take an aimed shot or avoid the snake).

Chris

[peterb]

Shot loads from rifled barrels often produce a “doughnut” pattern with only a few pellets in the center. If you’ve got a pistol +load combination that patterns well there’s no need to do anything else.

[mtnbkr]

Shot loads from rifled barrels often produce a “doughnut” pattern with only a few pellets in the center. If you’ve got a pistol +load combination that patterns well there’s no need to do anything else.

Yeah, I know. The gun I referenced above does that. It was still hell on that snake. I spend a lot of time outdoors and in the woods, yet have only needed to shoot a snake once. When I did, the less-than-optimum pattern of my standard revolver worked fine. That's what makes me question the need for a dedicated "snake gun". Maybe it's some pent up need I haven't yet experienced. :)

Chris

[nalesq]

I've got a Saiga, and it's a beastly action competition shotgun- but I'd pass on it for anything defense oriented. Capacity is not what I really need in a defensive shotgun. My experience mirrors yours, leaving a mag loaded and in the gun deforms the top round. Plus, the mags are huge and bulky. I haven't seen rimlock, but I've never messed with drums, either.

A fun gun, a powerful competition tool, but to me, mine is not a defensive weapon.

I also found fully loaded Saiga mags difficult to load reliably/quickly on a closed bolt. I ended up reloading the Saiga like an MP-5, manually locking the bolt to the rear before loading the mag, then releasing the bolt. Kind of a nuisance.


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[Bergeron]

I found that regularly practicing closed-bolt reloads made big difference, and that incorporating magwells into the gun moots the problem.

[TCinVA]

14.5" LOP is garbage juice.

To give a visual understanding of why this is a problem, behold the following picture of a woman attempting to use one of those garbage Turkish bullpup shotguns:

76094

Look at how the ridiculous length of pull stretches her out and forces her body into a position where she has no hope of actually dominating the gun. Best she can do is try and widen her base to not get knocked on her ass from the incoming force and hold on.

This was her first experience with a shotgun, apparently. Odds that she'll want another after are exceedingly slim.

[gato naranja]

14.5" LOP is garbage juice.


Look at how the ridiculous length of pull stretches her out and forces her body into a position where she has no hope of actually dominating the gun. Best she can do is try and widen her base to not get knocked on her ass from the incoming force and hold on.

This was her first experience with a shotgun, apparently. Odds that she'll want another after are exceedingly slim.

Suggestive of the old "rite of passage" some people thought was necessary vis-a-vis shotguns (give them an old 12 or 10 gauge with plenty of pull, lots of stock drop, a hard rubber buttplate and the heaviest load in the house... then guffaw at the results). A 14.5" LOP is going to be interesting for a lot of people

[spyderco monkey]

I don't know enough about shotguns to comment on the LOP issue.

But for bullpup rifles, I've noticed LOP is not much of a factor, simply because the traditional factors involved in LOP have little to do with the reality of a bullpup design.

With a conventionally stocked rifle or shotgun, LOP is of tremendous concern because it influences multiple factors of the shooters relationship to the weapon.
-Weapon overall length
-Distance support hand must extend to grip the forearm/ handguard
-Distance support hand must travel to insert magazines / shells / operate WML's
-Elevation of the shooters face and eye on the stocks comb in relationship to the sights / bead
-Distance the shooters eye is from the sights (for rifles.)

https://www.theyorkshiregent.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Gun-Fit-Main-image1.jpg

With a modern combat arm that uses a In-Line Stock, LOP is still a factor, although for fewer reasons, as the effect of LOP on the shooters head elevation is gone:
-Weapon overall length
-Distance support hand must extend to grip the forearm/ handguard
-Distance support hand must travel to insert magazines / shells / operate WML's
-Distance the shooters eye is from the sights (for rifles.)

https://i.ibb.co/JrZ592J/BCWA3-S-16-D.jpg

But with the Bullpup (at least bullpup rifle) none of those LOP effects appear to apply, as the trigger location of the weapon has no real relationship with any other aspect of the weapon. Whereas with a conventional rifle, the trigger is inexorably linked to the end of the receiver, the bullpup designer can stick the trigger pretty much anywhere forward of the magazine.

Tavor regular length of pull:
https://www.sportsmansoutdoorsuperstore.com/prodimages/32127-DEFAULT-l.jpg

Tavor shitty sketch showing reduced LOP by moving trigger back ~2":
https://i.ibb.co/7n7g43k/Tavor-reduced-LOP.jpg

Changing the LOP here has no effect on the rest of the rifle the way it would with a conventional rifle:
-Overall weapons length is the same
-Hanguard distance for support hand is the same
-Distance support hand must reach to access magazines/shells and operate WML's is the same
-Shooters eye distance to the rifles sights remains the same

Basically the only thing thats changed is the shooters firing hand distance, and the overall balance point of the weapon. Neither of which in the case of the bullpup rifle improve by shortening the LOP.

In my limited experience of having female friends use my various bullpup rifles, length of pull was not a factor. All that mattered was the location of the rifles optic relative to their eye. The AUG's factory fixed optic is located in the position for a adult man not a 5' woman, so it was too far away. But another AUG using a rail that extended to the ejection port, with an optic moved back to fit the proper eye relief for a 5' woman, and it was no issue.

[TCinVA]

The distance between where the gun makes contact with the upper body and where the firing hand contacts the weapon is absolutely critical if someone is to have optimal control of the gun.

If your experience with bullpups is 5.56 rifles, a bad fit means that the gun moves the person around more than is optimal for rapid, accurate shooting.

When we use that layout on a 12 gauge it completely fouls the body mechanics necessary to run the shotgun in a way that results in people getting their ass kicked by the weapon. Again, look at the people shooting in the TFTB video. They are getting their shit rocked every time they press the trigger, and little wonder because the length of pull forces them to have a much more bladed stance. It also forces the gun to sit right on joints, meaning if you aren't using effective recoil mitigation every shot loads directly into bits of anatomy that take enough of a beating on their own without adding to it with stupid designs.

This individual is at least 6 feet tall and look at where the gun sits on him:

76161

It's sufficiently long that it is forcing the gun out into his shoulder joint. And that's a taller than average male. When we put the gun in the hands of a taller than average female:

76162

It forces her into a more upright stance, puts the butt of the gun on a major joint, and the resulting ass-kicking-in-progress knocks her back to the point that she's half out of frame having started out framed up in the center. Look at how the layout of that gun forces her body around it. That shit is up on her collar bone and at the shoulder joint.

This gets old really quick.

I've seen this over and over again in class. When a gun stretches people out like that it has the same effect as stretching somebody out when you are grappling. It minimizes their ability to exert force or control. And with shotguns, if you aren't pushing the gun around it's going to push you around.

[Wonder9]

I know I'm echoing TCinVA, but shotgun fit is of utmost importance for proper recoil management, along with the ability to operate it effectively. Running a shotgun that does not fit is counterintuitive to a weapon that is generally used for point shooting. When using 1600FPS slugs, it prevents a proper cheekweld with excessive felt recoil. Mossberg is about the only manufacturer who realized that deer/turkey shotguns may benefit from an adjustable LOP since 14" is way too long if you aren't wingshooting.

[MistWolf]

The distance between where the gun makes contact with the upper body and where the firing hand contacts the weapon is absolutely critical if someone is to have optimal control of the gun.

If your experience with bullpups is 5.56 rifles, a bad fit means that the gun moves the person around more than is optimal for rapid, accurate shooting.

When we use that layout on a 12 gauge it completely fouls the body mechanics necessary to run the shotgun in a way that results in people getting their ass kicked by the weapon. Again, look at the people shooting in the TFTB video. They are getting their shit rocked every time they press the trigger, and little wonder because the length of pull forces them to have a much more bladed stance. It also forces the gun to sit right on joints, meaning if you aren't using effective recoil mitigation every shot loads directly into bits of anatomy that take enough of a beating on their own without adding to it with stupid designs.

This individual is at least 6 feet tall and look at where the gun sits on him:

76161

It's sufficiently long that it is forcing the gun out into his shoulder joint. And that's a taller than average male. When we put the gun in the hands of a taller than average female:

76162

It forces her into a more upright stance, puts the butt of the gun on a major joint, and the resulting ass-kicking-in-progress knocks her back to the point that she's half out of frame having started out framed up in the center. Look at how the layout of that gun forces her body around it. That shit is up on her collar bone and at the shoulder joint.

This gets old really quick.

I've seen this over and over again in class. When a gun stretches people out like that it has the same effect as stretching somebody out when you are grappling. It minimizes their ability to exert force or control. And with shotguns, if you aren't pushing the gun around it's going to push you around.
You saved me a lot of typing.

[Super77]

Ugh...

It sure would be nice to see a company offer a quality conventional pump shotgun with a 18-20" barrel, and a full length mag tube, to compete with the Mossberg 590/590a1 series. Thanks to import restrictions, and Remington's woes, Mossberg has a monopoly in this area right now. The market is wide open. Hopefully, Roundhill will be smart enough to market the 870 Police Magnum to the civilian market, and increase QC on the Express lineup.

Which S&W used to import the excellent 3000 model shotgun (made by Howa). I wish those were coning back. I stupidly traded mine 10 years ago

[Joe in PNG]

What they should do is work on getting a good, reliable, and affordable conventional semi-auto that can compete with the Beretta 1301 or Benelli M-4.
But they won't.

[TCinVA]

What they should do is work on getting a good, reliable, and affordable conventional semi-auto that can compete with the Beretta 1301 or Benelli M-4.
But they won't.

I think they're going to sell a bunch of these. And, after all, their objective is to sell guns. Stupid sells better much of the time...although I wonder about the ratio of Governors sold to Judges, because I have this nagging suspicion that people interested in buying stupid also like to buy cheap.

Getting a semi-auto shotgun right seems to be difficult given how few there are on the market that work well. I can't blame them for going pump action meme gun because they'll probably work and they'll probably sell.

[Joe in PNG]

I think they're going to sell a bunch of these. And, after all, their objective is to sell guns. Stupid sells better much of the time...although I wonder about the ratio of Governors sold to Judges, because I have this nagging suspicion that people interested in buying stupid also like to buy cheap.

Getting a semi-auto shotgun right seems to be difficult given how few there are on the market that work well. I can't blame them for going pump action meme gun because they'll probably work and they'll probably sell.

And if they did, they'd probably make another mag fed AR style thing.

[Wonder9]

The ideal pump in 2021 would be a quasi 870 with a built-in 1913 rail, Mossberg-like ejector, skeletonized loading gate, and 870MCS-like modularity. Completely nitrided receivers, 14"-22" nitrided barrels, coated internals. Iron sight options would be express rifle, or large bead on pedestal. Only Magpul SGA furniture sets and good QC. Keeping it under $800 street price would be ideal.

OTOH, $600 AR15s go brrrrrt and 60 freedoms will fit in your back pockets.

[gato naranja]

The ideal pump in 2021 would be a quasi 870 with a built-in 1913 rail, Mossberg-like ejector, skeletonized loading gate, and 870MCS-like modularity. Completely nitrided receivers, 14"-22" nitrided barrels, coated internals. Iron sight options would be express rifle, or large bead on pedestal. Only Magpul SGA furniture sets and good QC. Keeping it under $800 street price would be ideal.

Amen! Every point rings true. An outfit that can do this while maintaining interchangeability of existing 870 barrels, accessories and a plurality of parts would be deserving of gratitude and profits.

Unfortunately, this is equally true...


Stupid sells better much of the time...

If S&W had offered this bullpup in 10 gauge, there is a certain market segment that would just HAVE to own one.

[Joe in PNG]

Amen! Every point rings true. An outfit that can do this while maintaining interchangeability of existing 870 barrels, accessories and a plurality of parts would be deserving of gratitude and profits.

Unfortunately, this is equally true...

If S&W had offered this bullpup in 10 gauge, there is a certain market segment that would just HAVE to own one.

Next, someone can come up with 10ga mini shells.

[Wonder9]

Next, someone can come up with 10ga mini shells.

A S&W Board meeting in the near future

Sir, we have two options.

Option A: The M&P10GAUGE and the M&P 2.0 10mm. Internal research says thousands will potentially buy these because 10mm and 10 gauge are trending. The Lokum Arms TURKOMAN 10 Bullpup Shotgun Hickok45 video also has 4,000,000 views.

Option B: Remove locks from our revolvers, improve quality control, limited runs of classics, and make the M&P series truly modular.

S&W Executive: WE ARE GOING TO TAKE BACK CONSTANTINOPOLIS AND MAKE MONEY OFF PEOPLE WHO WANT TO LARP FALLOUT.

[ScotchMan]

This thread is amazing. Please continue.

[kwb377]

That didn't take long...


https://www.smith-wesson.com/recall-notice-mp-12-shotguns/?fbclid=IwAR2syCMH-ZNRVMwz4teX-JncHWHssQflYaR7VDAdDC1hOxpYdagWnZXZ_C8

[BillSWPA]

That didn't take long...


https://www.smith-wesson.com/recall-notice-mp-12-shotguns/?fbclid=IwAR2syCMH-ZNRVMwz4teX-JncHWHssQflYaR7VDAdDC1hOxpYdagWnZXZ_C8

While such issues are always disappointing, I have to respect S&W for being open and honest about it and trying to address the issue ASAP.


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