The gun that beat H&K at their own game: The Haenel Mr223/556 tabletop review

[Greg Bell]

Hey guys,


Just did a little tabletop review of my Haenel Cr223/BT-15. I bought it as a historical curiosity because it is the gun that beat H&K to be the next German army rifle. Of course H&K sued and got the award overturned( IN A WORLD OF COMPROMISE, SOME MEN SUE). But everybody knows Haenel beat H&K. The reports at the time indicated that while Haenel definitely undercut H&K's price, they also performed slightly better (although both guns performed substantially the same).

The gun is very nice, and has some unusual features. The price BT is asking is outrageous (although Arms Unlimited recently cut these to 2500). But it is definitely an interesting gun. Also, it is neat because we are actually able to get the gun with all German parts because B&T somehow seems to understand how to import pistols where H&K doesn't or won't. It's a cool piece, and I suspect they won't be around much longer.

I took mine out to zero it but promptly lost the stupid cap to my Aimpoint M5 and it was raining so I called off zeroing it until later.


https://youtu.be/RW2sopiOajc

[HCM]

Hey guys,


Just did a little tabletop review of my Haenel Cr223/BT-15. I bought it as a historical curiosity because it is the gun that beat H&K to be the next German army rifle. Of course H&K sued and got the award overturned( IN A WORLD OF COMPROMISE, SOME MEN SUE). But everybody knows Haenel beat H&K. The reports at the time indicated that while Haenel definitely undercut H&K's price, they also performed slightly better (although both guns performed substantially the same).

The gun is very nice, and has some unusual features. The price BT is asking is outrageous (although Arms Unlimited recently cut these to 2500). But it is definitely an interesting gun. Also, it is neat because we are actually able to get the gun with all German parts because B&T somehow seems to understand how to import pistols where H&K doesn't or won't. It's a cool piece, and I suspect they won't be around much longer.

I took mine out to zero it but promptly lost the stupid cap to my Aimpoint M5 and it was raining so I called off zeroing it until later.


https://youtu.be/RW2sopiOajc

The Haenel is technically interesting for a few reasons but the back story is not as you portray it in your post.

Good summary here: https://strikehold.net/2020/10/09/bundeswehr-assault-rifle-order-cancelled/

Plus it has the dick mod rail system the euro trash seem obsessed with.

[Greg Bell]

I mentioned the patent infringement. They principally revolved around the "Over the beach" (holes) in the gun. It is interesting that HK didn't care about this until they lost.

Haenel definitely undercut them in price. HK's complaint is similar to Bezos' complaint about Musk, that they is basically subsidizing (dumping) the rifle to get the contract. This is the same complaint folks made against SIG when they won the M17 contract.

The Haenel is not a copy of the Caracal 816. Haenel does however build the 816 under license from their parent company. The Haenel is, however, a further development of the 816, which is a development of the SIG 516, which is a development of the 416 (by the very same engineers). And of course the 416 is just an M4 with a G36 gas system, which is just a development of the AR-18 gas system.


Basically Haenel was going to make 90% of the rifle in Germany. It was going to be financed by their extremely rich owners in the Abu Dhabi for sure. It was clearly, much like the Sig M17, an attempt to leapfrog to the front of the line of quality small arms manufacturers by selling the guns cheap and making the money back later with other sales.

There is another layer to this that is discussed in the German media. The leftists of the German Left Party were extremely upset that a company with connections in the UAE were going to get the contract. Not because they were patriotic, but because the UAE had recently normalized relations with Israel (which German socialists can't stop hating).

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/anti-israel-german-party-seeks-to-block-arms-deal-to-uae-owned-firm-642569






The Haenel is technically interesting for a few reasons but the back story is not as you portray it.

The Haenel is a German built copy of the UAE produced Caracal 816, which is itself a clone of the HK 416. The German govt told HK the 416 was too expensive so HK made their own budget clone of the 416, the 433.

HK’s lawsuit is that aspects of the Haenel /Caracal infringe on HK patents.

My understanding is Haenel won the award on price but put in an artificially low bid to win the contract. There are allegations Haenel did so with the intention of subcontracting out much of the production to Caracal. One thing that’s not in dispute is Haenel lacks the capacity to actually produce a sufficient number of weapons in Germany to meet contact requirements.

Good summary here: https://strikehold.net/2020/10/09/bundeswehr-assault-rifle-order-cancelled/

[HCM]

I mentioned the patent infringement. They principally revolved around the "Over the beach" (holes) in the gun. It is interesting that HK didn't care about this until they lost.

Haenel definitely undercut them in price. HK's complaint is similar to Bezos' complaint about Musk, that they is basically subsidizing (dumping) the rifle to get the contract. This is the same complaint folks made against SIG when they won the M17 contract.

The Haenel is not a copy of the Caracal 816. Haenel does however build the 816 under license from their parent company. The Haenel is, however, a further development of the 816, which is a development of the SIG 516, which is a development of the 416 (by the very same engineers). And of course the 416 is just an M4 with a G36 gas system, which is just an AR-18 gas system.


Basically Haenel was going to make 90% of the rifle in Germany. It was going to be financed by their extremely rich owners in the Abu Dhabi for sure. It was clearly, much like the Sig M17, an attempt to leapfrog to the front of the line of quality small arms manufacturers by selling the guns cheap and making the money back later with other sales.

There is another layer to this that is discussed in the German media. The leftists in south were extremely upset that a company with connections in the UAE were going to get the contract. Not because they were patriotic, but because the UAE had recently normalized relations with Israel (which German socialists can't stop hating).

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/anti-israel-german-party-seeks-to-block-arms-deal-to-uae-owned-firm-642569

It’s normal for countries to want defense articles to be made domestically.

Haenel doesn’t even have the capacity to make 90% of the rifle domestically.

The gun itself is interesting (other than the dickmod) but the company is shady as hell.

[Greg Bell]

Well, the keymod was what they wanted. The HK entrants had it as well.

Again, the gun was to be 90% domestic. H&k was also in a bind as to whether they had the capacity to produce the rifles due to their ongoing obligation to the French. I suspect Caracal would have spent the money to get it done. Doesn’t matter anymore. Just another weapons contract scuttled by the loser’s legal challenge and superior political connections. We know what the army wanted, but ultimately it’s just an interesting historical piece for me.


It’s normal for countries to want defense articles to be made domestically.

Haenel doesn’t even have the capacity to make 90% of the rifle domestically.

The gun itself is interesting (other than the dickmod) but the company is shady as hell.

[Ed L]

While I agree with HCM on this one, I really like your introduction video to your Dumb Gun Collector Channel. It's humorous and self-effacing. You actually have better video editing skills than many guntubers.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJQwbX2NEOU&t=12s

[Greg Bell]

Much appreciated. I just need to buy a microphone, better looks and a deeper voice. That’s all I need!


“While I agree with HCM on this one.”

Well, I may have purposely made it a little spicy:)

[Ed L]

Just get some type of voice software that can change your voice to sound like Morgan Freeman. I have no idea if this software really works. I would buy it if it had an instant Morgan Freeman mode as opposed to a bunch of settings that you had to spend a few days messing with and still not get anything that sounds the way that you want.

Wait, from the link: :The Morgan Freeman voice preset is available in a zip file. You need to extract the files before using them in the software. Here, you can find two types of files – .txt and .nvc. You only need the .nvc file."

https://techdentro.com/morgan-freeman-voice-generator/

[Default.mp3]

Plus it has the dick mod rail system the euro trash seem obsessed with.It's my understanding that the Europeans specifically wanted ITAR-free designs, thus ruling out M-LOK.


Well, the keymod was what they wanted. The HK entrants had it as well.Do you have a source for this? I had always though it was HKey.

Any chance you could see if HK416 handguards fit?

[Greg Bell]

"Do you have a source for this? I had always though it was HKey."

You are right. I meant that there wasn't any way someone who must "MLOK all things" was going to be happy with the German rifle entrants. Honestly, most of the reporting on this is speculative, especially in the firearms press. The German media detailed the politics of it but most of the gun media stuff was just people speculating on what they thought might be the reason. My guess is that once they selected the Hanel rifle, HK, completely blown away, called the politicians that they needed and the folks in the media that were friendly. There is no way they would have waited until after they lost to make the patent claim if they thought it was legitimate. If you look at the media reports HK also claimed that the testing was rigged against them. You don't say the testing was rigged if your entrant came out ahead. For H&K, it was probably more important to nuke the whole project than win.

Hilariously, the other side also was planting stories in the media. Right before Haenel was announced as the winner there was a huge story in the media pointing out that H&K was founded by a bunch of NAZI engineers. This is of course, silly, because Haenel has substantial links to the Third Reich (at least the name does) and it is well known that H&K's founders were a bunch of old Mauser guys. But I think they were prepping to soften the landing of their choice. And of course it is hilarious that the German Left Party hates Jews so much they would try and tank Haenel because of the UAE's embrace of Israel (especially given the German Left's antipathy towards German arms manufacturers) There are zillions of layers to this onion.




"Any chance you could see if HK416 handguards fit?"

They don't Chen Lee tried it and the Haenel's receiver design isn't as tall (it is closer to standard M4 height).

[DpdG]

If I remember correctly from some translated articles, one of the concerns brought up with Haenel’s entrant was regarding their “90% domestic” capability. It was alleged that Haenel’s T&E entrants were not up to that 90% and possibly/probably largely Caracal made. According to this allegation, the only way Haenel could meet the 90% for contract rifles was to use the contract as capital to build the necessary infrastructure in Germany. AKA (allegedly) the company as it existed at the time of contract award was physically incapable of meeting the domestic production requirements as their tinder was a “if you buy the rifles, we’ll build the factory” sort of thing. I’m not in industry, but that sounds hinky to my uncultured ears.

None of the above has anything to do with the qualitative merits of the rifles or validity of the patent claims. I have no info on either.

[call_me_ski]

I mentioned the patent infringement. They principally revolved around the "Over the beach" (holes) in the gun. It is interesting that HK didn't care about this until they lost.


Not really that interesting. Hanael likely didn’t represent a large enough threat to their market share to spend the money to go after them. It is also possible and likely that HK didn’t not have full details of Hanael’s submission before it was made. Even if they did, they had no obligation to point it out at the time knowing that it would creat problems for Hanael should they win. You don’t have to announce to the table when you have an UNO draw four card. Caracal and by extension Hanael hired people that were intimately involved in the development of the 416. To suggest it was anyone but Caracal’s fault that they infringed on patents that they knew existed is crazy.

[Phaedrus]

I'm neither lawyer nor engineer but the Haenel looks like they laid an HK416 on a photocopy machine and pressed COPY. I haven't field stripped them next to each other but I can scarcely tell 'em apart. It's probably easier to hit a given price point when you don't have to do any R&D beyond copying a competitor.;)

Apropos of nothing Mlok sucks Kong Dong.

[Greg Bell]

"Not really that interesting. Hanael likely didn’t represent a large enough threat to their market share to spend the money to go after them. It is also possible and likely that HK didn’t not have full details of Hanael’s submission before it was made. Even if they did, they had no obligation to point it out at the time knowing that it would creat problems for Hanael should they win. You don’t have to announce to the table when you have an UNO draw four card. Caracal and by extension Hanael hired people that were intimately involved in the development of the 416. To suggest it was anyone but Caracal’s fault that they infringed on patents that they knew existed is crazy."

I guess it is always a possibility. But Haenel and caracal (and Sig really) had been selling these rifles for years. I guess they were waiting until they lost a really big contract before they played their big card?

It is also interesting that H&K attacked the testing performed. Apparently the Hanelacal outperformed the 416 in shooting results and H&K basically called BS pointing out the guns were so similar there is no way they could have differed so much. That being said, the HK bid was 179 million Euros and Haenel was 152million for 18700 rifles.

[Greg Bell]

I'm neither lawyer nor engineer but the Haenel looks like they laid an HK416 on a photocopy machine and pressed COPY. I haven't field stripped them next to each other but I can scarcely tell 'em apart. It's probably easier to hit a given price point when you don't have to do any R&D beyond copying a competitor.;)

I agree. But H&K basically just copied the AR-18 and stuck it in a plastic frame with the G36, and then later grafted it on top of an M4 (which Colt did decades before).

75833

I guess because I have been looking at them so long I see a fair amount of difference (especially compared to the difference between the average AR). But honestly, they both look like m4s and Haenel certainly didn't do much to hide the fact that they were related. The most interesting similarity is apparently a 416 bolt will actually fit in the Haenel. But on the flip side, the Haenel manages to squeeze the Ar-18 gas system into a lower profile.

75834

https://strikehold.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Budeswehr-rifle-competition-finalists.jpg

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2021/02/04/potd-mr223-v-cr223/


Apropos of nothing Mlok sucks Kong Dong.
And I really don't care about the rail attachment wars. I have watched people get rid of entire rails, spending hundreds of dollars just so they could attach a flashlight with a cooler attachment point.

[Phaedrus]

Function will dictate form to a large degree and I suppose there's only so many ways to design a short-stroke piston and make the gun still look like an M4 and use STANAG mags, etc. It's just that Haenel seems to have cribbed every line and even the trade dress. For all the world it looks like they're just building their own 416s and knocking a few bucks off. But I suppose sharper legal minds than mine are hashing it out in court. I don't much care what anyone else uses for rails but I loath mlok, it's just really finicky and hard to mount stuff IMO. Ultimately it's not that big a deal since most things get mounted once and then stay there. For my own use keymod is easier to use. If it looks like dicks, well, I'm not 14 so that's not all that relevant IMO.:o

[DpdG]

For no real technical reason, I was hoping the 433 would prevail. I find the extrusion receiver guns (433, B&T, Bren 2) aesthetically pleasing. They also make me feel slightly better that they're natively piston guns that don't have vestigial receiver extensions/buffer assemblies and should (in theory) be less prone to carrier tilt.

[javemtr]

For no real technical reason, I was hoping the 433 would prevail. I find the extrusion receiver guns (433, B&T, Bren 2) aesthetically pleasing. They also make me feel slightly better that they're natively piston guns that don't have vestigial receiver extensions/buffer assemblies and should (in theory) be less prone to carrier tilt.
Carrier tilt is not an issue in any of those 'modern' systems because they all have rectangular carriers that cannot tilt on the rails they ride on and, more importantly, don't have a receiver extension where the tilt would ever cause any noticeable issues such as wear or abrasion.

[DpdG]

Carrier tilt is not an issue in any of those 'modern' systems because they all have rectangular carriers that cannot tilt on the rails they ride on and, more importantly, don't have a receiver extension where the tilt would ever cause any noticeable issues such as wear or abrasion.

Exactly what I was trying to say- they are natively designed as piston guns and shouldn’t suffer the problems of ARs retrofitted with pistons.

[Greg Bell]

for rails but I loath mlok, it's just really finicky and hard to mount stuff IMO

Agreed. I honestly think it caught on because it was more pleasing to the eye. I know crane did some tests that said it was strongest but I suspect keyed was plenty strong to hold on flashlights and pressure pads. That being said, anytime I buy something I try to get Mlock because I know the older stuff is dying.

[jbrimlow]

Thanks for a great video. I've been curious about this rifle.

[HCM]

Function will dictate form to a large degree and I suppose there's only so many ways to design a short-stroke piston and make the gun still look like an M4 and use STANAG mags, etc. It's just that Haenel seems to have cribbed every line and even the trade dress. For all the world it looks like they're just building their own 416s and knocking a few bucks off. But I suppose sharper legal minds than mine are hashing it out in court. I don't much care what anyone else uses for rails but I loath mlok, it's just really finicky and hard to mount stuff IMO. Ultimately it's not that big a deal since most things get mounted once and then stay there. For my own use keymod is easier to use. If it looks like dicks, well, I'm not 14 so that's not all that relevant IMO.:o

Looks aside, Mlok has real advantages:

Stronger
Cheaper and simpler to produce
Install is equivalent but if improperly installed, Mlok attachments come off without damage and can be re-installed

Keymod is uni directional and if Hk is correct, U.S. Keymod is oriented improperly.

I have two dickmod rails - while I won’t get rid of them over esthetics I wouldn’t buy anymore of them.

The eurotrash are usually 10 years behind us in terms of TTPs so they will come around eventually.

[lordboogie]

I just signed up to say, thank you for the awesome video. I had been searching on Youtube since the BT-15 released for someone to show it off and talk about in on camera, and I was very happy to come across your video.

I noticed compared to the first 200 imports into the US of the CR223 that the BT-15 version has the ambi bolt catch, I was very happy when I saw that in your video, I was expecting to have the ambi safety and mag release, but not the ambi bolt catch.

I also notice the barrel profile of your BT-15 is different that the CR223 shown in the TFBTV Youtube coverage on the BT-15. I'm disappointed the BT-15s didn't maintain that barrel profile.

I should be picking mine up from the FFL tomorrow, so I'll let you know what I get.

[Greg Bell]

Glad you liked it. I have a lot of oddball guns I’m gonna start doing videos on them. My taste is typically towards weird guns so I’m never going to get more than a few hundred subscribers but I’m planning on making videos about stuff you don’t see everywhere else.


I just signed up to say, thank you for the awesome video. I had been searching on Youtube since the BT-15 released for someone to show it off and talk about in on camera, and I was very happy to come across your video.

I noticed compared to the first 200 imports into the US of the CR223 that the BT-15 version has the ambi bolt catch, I was very happy when I saw that in your video, I was expecting to have the ambi safety and mag release, but not the ambi bolt catch.

I also notice the barrel profile of your BT-15 is different that the CR223 shown in the TFBTV Youtube coverage on the BT-15. I'm disappointed the BT-15s didn't maintain that barrel profile.

I should be picking mine up from the FFL tomorrow, so I'll let you know what I get.