Enclosed vs. Open Emitter Dots and Fogging

[GlockenSpiel]

I've seen a lot of folks saying that closed emitter optics are better for preventing lens fogging than open ones, due to the sealed nitrogen-purged nature of the closed design. But, the point of the sealing/nitrogen-purging is to remove moisture from inside the optic and prevent it from entering, therefore preventing internal fogging of the optic. Internal fogging pretty much means the optic is trashed, because there's not enough airflow for the moisture to easily escape. On an open emitter design, there is no internal portion to the optic, so no internal lens fogging concerns.

However, to my understanding the sealed designs should do nothing to prevent external lens fogging. If your glass is cold and you go to a warmer, moister environment, (or breathe directly on it) you will get external lens condensation and thus fogging. I've had no problem inducing external fogging on binoculars or scopes in cold weather just by accidentally breathing on them. Aimpoint literally instructs you to fog up the lens before wiping it with a cloth to clean it, so I don't see sealed optics as being especially anti-fog.

I know there are other potential issues with open designs in re blocking of the emitter or water on the lens, but fogging should not be worse, right? Yet, I'm seeing that everywhere at the moment, and feel like I'm taking crazy pills. Maybe it's because the same amount of fogging is less of an issue for closed designs, because the emitter is not projecting onto a fogged lens?

[RJ]

Good info in this thread, in particular this post by SoCalDep:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?46705-Considerations-for-red-dots-on-slimline-pistols&p=1184550&viewfull=1#post1184550

[OlongJohnson]

If the emitter on an open-emitter design fogs, you're pretty f'ed, because there's no dot to even get to the optic lens. Can be even worse with a rain drop or other bulk water on an outdoors gun. Hence why GJM only used closed-emitter systems for his outdoor guns.

[TCinVA]

This winter I ended up sliding down a hill after working out in the cold all day. My belt-carried pistol ended up scooping a shitload of ice. A simple swipe of the lens and it was usable again:

75570

Of course, it being cold as all hell, as soon as I went inside both lenses fogged up...but the dot was still visible and useful:

75571

You can see a more extreme example in SoCalDep's thread here: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?49015-Aimpoint-ACRO-P-2

The problem with open emitter optics is that if you get fogging on the emitter, you may not get a useful dot. If you get fogging on the lens that faces the emitter, you may not get a dot. And this happens in more circumstances than you might imagine. Friend of mine was shooting a winter match. He drew and exhaled and just his breath from the exhale fogged his RMR to the point where he didn't have a dot or his irons.

On a closed emitter optic that's in good working order, the emitter and the lens the dot is projected on are protected from the environment meaning that you still see a useful aiming reference even if you can't see entirely through the optic.

Anti-fog and other measures can be taken to help out with fogging, but the open emitter designs will always be more vulnerable to environmental issues than properly made closed emitter optics.

[TCinVA]

An example of what I mean. Getting out of an air-conditioned truck into the hot, humid air in Virginia in August:

75724

Yes, anti-fog solutions help. No, not perfectly...as you can see.

If I dialed the brightness up to max I could see a very, very faint dot. Far from ideal.

[GearFondler]

An example of what I mean. Getting out of an air-conditioned truck into the hot, humid air in Virginia in August:

75724

Yes, anti-fog solutions help. No, not perfectly...as you can see.

If I dialed the brightness up to max I could see a very, very faint dot. Far from ideal.Was it carried AIWB in your truck or was it exposed? I've always assumed (possibly to my detriment) that my body heat would help prevent the fogging.

[msstate56]

Was it carried AIWB in your truck or was it exposed? I've always assumed (possibly to my detriment) that my body heat would help prevent the fogging.

I’ve experienced this same problem in MS in the summer. I carried in a JM owb, concealed under a shirt. With the AC turned up and a 15 minute ride to the range, the SRO I was using fogged up to an unusable level. This was easily repeatable. I use a 509T now, so at least when it fogs up it’s still usable.

[GearFondler]

I’ve experienced this same problem in MS in the summer. I carried in a JM owb, concealed under a shirt. With the AC turned up and a 15 minute ride to the range, the SRO I was using fogged up to an unusable level. This was easily repeatable. I use a 509T now, so at least when it fogs up it’s still usable.I live in South Louisiana so I'm in the same or worse situation but I've never noticed it... But possibly because I've never looked for it. I've never gotten out of my vehicle and immediately checked so shame on me. I've also never noticed at the range but by the time I've drug everything out and set up the RMR may have had time to un-fog itself.

[TCinVA]

Was it carried AIWB in your truck or was it exposed? I've always assumed (possibly to my detriment) that my body heat would help prevent the fogging.

It was in a case.

I stopped the truck, put a target backer in the stand, glued up a target, and pulled thee pistol out of the case. It fogged to uselessness as soon as it hit the outside air.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Generally, I prefer enclosed emitter designs - especially if carries them openly, like a duty righ.

A couple of weeks ago, these came to me from a class at a large, metropolitan agency in AZ. 1st gen 509T with internal fogging:

[Navin Johnson]

New market for gangster sights....

[TCinVA]

Generally, I prefer enclosed emitter designs - especially if carries them openly, like a duty righ.

A couple of weeks ago, these came to me from a class at a large, metropolitan agency in AZ. 1st gen 509T with internal fogging:

Unsurprising. Everybody can ship a dud, but Aimpoint ships fewer than anyone else in the business. Hence my preference for the ACRO on a serious use pistol.

[BillSWPA]

Yesterday I received a Swampfox Liberty that I intend to mount on a Nelson Precision Manufacturing slide for a Glock 44. The box was delivered at the mailbox outside my office, inside the building, and sat there for a couple of hours before I retrieved and opened the box. As soon as I removed the cover from the optic, the lens fogged. The fog dissipated in a few minutes, but if I had to use a gun on which the optic was mounted right then and there, both the optic and iron sights would have been severely compromised.

Since the same thing happens to my glasses frequently, I would expect it to happen to any optic.

Right now my primary interest in optics is improving my skills with iron sights. Perhaps later, I will use one for concealed carry.

Does anyone have any updates on whether carrying the gun concealed will keep the temperature consistent enough to resist fogging? (Edited to add: I see at least one poster above had repeatable fogging issues while carrying in an air-conditioned car and then stepping out into the heat.)

Every time I have tried to use any anti-fog substance on my swimming goggles, I have invariably ruined the lenses of the goggles. Am I using the wrong product, or am I that bad at applying it? What works, and does not create a risk of creating its own problems seeing through the lens?

[NH Shooter]

Does anyone have any updates on whether carrying the gun concealed will keep the temperature consistent enough to resist fogging?

Not optic specific, but up here in NH a pistol kept concealed under a shirt with a coat over it stays pretty warm. Bringing a rifle inside after a winter range session is a different story.