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Mack
08-10-2021, 06:00 PM
We are in the very early stages of designing a pair of pants with concealed carry in mind, specifically AIWB/IWB. We are going to be purposefully light on the details of what we are thinking design and feature-wise at this point because we would like some input from anyone who is willing to provide any. This project will not be complete until 2022 but we would like to get as much info as possible about what your ideal concealed carry pant would be like.

We thank everyone in advance for their time and we will provide more specific info about the project and some of the ideas we have after we have the opportunity to hear from everyone here.

Blades
08-10-2021, 06:07 PM
I've only been carrying for 4.5 years AIWB, 99.9% in jeans(maybe 100%). The thing I've noticed is the clasp/button is in the way for me because I carry more centerline. Good luck and looking forward to seeing your design.

Clusterfrack
08-10-2021, 06:24 PM
Mack, this is great news. I think there is a decent market for good pants. Here are a few thoughts.

The best designed pants I have tried are Helicon-Tex UTP (https://www.helikon-tex.us/utp-urban-tactical-pants-polycotton-ripstop.html). These look too tactical, and are a bit saggy in the ass. But they fit great and have every feature I need:

Medium-to-heavy stretch fabric
Stretch waist
Belt loops in the right place (out of the way of AIWB loops)
Open rear pockets (no flaps) that are off to the side enough for flashlight carry.
Jeans style front pockets
iPhone pocket
Cargo pockets
Built-in AIWB mag pouches that also fit a fixed blade sheath



My favorite CCW pants overall are 5.11 Apex. They do pretty much everything the Helikon pants do, don't look too tactical, and my wife says they look good on me. However, the cloth is a bit too thin for year round wear.

Eddy Bauer Guide Pro (https://www.eddiebauer.com/p/12951063/men%27s-guide-pro-pants) pants are quite good as well. But again, the cloth is too thin.

BN
08-10-2021, 06:55 PM
A stretch waist. Some of us can change waist sizes with a couple of servings of ice cream.

Front pockets deep enough and strong enough for a J-Frame or Glock 26 BUG.

Narrow belt loops and maybe some scattered around that could be skipped for holster loop placement.

Le FranÁais
08-10-2021, 08:17 PM
Eschewing cargo pockets would allow use by people who have to, or prefer to, dress up from that extremely casual look.

Most places where people live in the US get really hot in the summer, and many are very humid. Where it's very cold in winter, most people are not spending much of that time outdoors. So, selecting a fabric that is somewhat lightweight and breathable would make more sense to me than a heavy, hot fabric. So many pants have stretch built in these days that I think it would be a step backward not to include that too.

Belt loops that aren't huge would be nice; some manufacturers in this market seem proud of their 2" or larger belt loops. Who is threading a police duty belt through their pants? I think a correct fit of belt to belt loops (1.5" is by far the most common as you well know) creates a more stable platform. The cheap Amazon pants I use as range pants have snug belt loops, and it makes a difference.

Mike C
08-11-2021, 07:41 AM
Mack,

A slightly gusseted crotch, not like Duluth, something much smaller and much less noticeable but something that give a hair more room. I think my largest complaint over all is when wearing normal fitted adult clothing especially jeans that have some stretch when filling the front of the pants with gun, knife, spare mag you lose some of the space in the butt and crotch and it decreases comfort and airflow. Maybe the same thing could be accomplished with giving 1/2" shorter inseam or a slightly higher rise. I don't know. I just hate feeling like my pants are getting sucked into my 4th POC and my berries stuffed back inside my abdomen when I sit or squat. I hate saggy pants though.

Additionally I would also love some venting in the front pockets, small but efficient in terms of venting. I tried some pants I think by Vertx not sure. But they had mesh in the pockets albeit too much. Pockets felt flimsy and unsupportive. I felt like it was a good idea only poorly executed. Another issue that seems to stem from MFG's trying to save on material usage is not having enough jean material on the front pocket that matches the outside of the pants. So you see the lighter blue material often and the pants look unfinished/cheap. I also wouldn't mind having slightly reinforced pocket bottoms and sides just along the seams, (in my head I am thinking of a strip of material folded in a V run the out length of the seam). That way if you have a pocket blow out it is easy to either repair yourself or take it to a competent seamstress and have it repaired.

Option between straight or tapered legs would be awesome. Nothing weird or extravagant style wise so they can be worn with anything. Count me out on cargo pockets but maybe a SKU with and one without if not a pair of jeans. I'm not a fan of crazy pockets or things that look tactical in any way shape or form. Nothing that is even a giveaway to another, "gun guy/gal."

Lastly you guys should talk to Craig and Ed Calderon. I think those two perspectives and input would be pure Gold. Craig has a serious sense of style and I believe of everyone I've ever met knows the ins an outs of wearing nice things while maintaining functionality the best. Ed on the other hand has been modifying things for carry in his daily life for a long time. Though his purposes are different for the most part in terms of what is carried just his insight and thought process alone with evaluation would be huge. I do hope you contact them both their insight would be worth paying for. Shit I would put money up for it and I mean that. Regardless I seriously look forward to supporting you all. I have a ton of your stuff and have to say is some of the best that I own hands down. Thank you for taking the time to gather peoples thoughts and input here.

BobLoblaw
08-11-2021, 09:43 AM
The pockets are a big deal. I'm not a cargo pockets guy. The best pockets are those hidden hip pockets designed for phones for these reasons:


no sitting on phone/wallet (hello, back issues)
phone/wallet doesn't slide out of the pocket when seated
frees up room for something else in the front pocket
fits AR mags
secure for running without being unnecessarily deep
don't get as sweaty as front or rear pockets


Other considerations:
Reinforced pocket lips are great for pockets knives and flashlights.
I agree with the gusseted crotch being awesome and the metal-stemmed buttons not being AIWB friendly.
Semi-stretch fabric allows you to stretch out tight areas like folks with big butts/thighs and skinny waists or vice versa.
A stretch waist band is tricky. Many of mine eventually lose its stretch and become ill-fitting. I've had better luck with rigid waist bands and buying the correct size.
High rise waist bands are for women. Mid or low for men (preferably low).
A zipper that's too short is completely useless.
Slight pant leg taper is good.
No tactical yoga pants unless the models are tasteful.

Spartan1980
08-11-2021, 10:00 AM
Built-in AIWB mag pouches that also fit a fixed blade sheath

Definitely second this. Long ago I messaged Duluth Trading to add the ďpocket inside a pocketĒ fo their Firehose line to both sides. Itís nigh perfect for a double stack mag and tall enough to retain single stacks too. Itís perfect, just in the exact wrong pocket unless youíre wrong handed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Guerrero
08-11-2021, 10:03 AM
I'd like to echo the "no cargo pockets" thing, but some kind of "auxiliary" pocket on the thigh would be nice, big enough for pepper spray (or maybe an extra pistol mag). Carrying pepper spray in a front pocket is a pain in the ass (back pocket, too).

Gusseted crotch
Maybe articulated knees
A little more room in the thighs and butt without making the waist bigger
A little stretch to the fabric.
Sturdy belt loops, but not crazy wide or too many

vcdgrips
08-11-2021, 10:13 AM
IMHO, the now discontinued 5.11 defender flex slim/straight pant is a good starting point. "New" models called the Defender Flex Range and Urban pants are just being introduced (Range pant is approx. 95% cotton, 5% poly stretchy material. Urban is 68% poly 32 cotton). They seem to be angling toward a slimmer fit.

1. Both slim and straight tapers
2. Stretch in fabric
3. Will take a crease and/or elimination of wrinkles by ironing
4. "Hidden" phone/mag/etc. pockets behind hip points free up the pockets in more std. locations
5. 5+ belt loops with optimized placement for AIWB/IWB
6. YKK zips
7. Teflon anti stain coating
8. NOT Made in the PRC.

Your biggest challenge may be how to maintain quality relative to your other products when you will likely have to go off shore to get these sewn up to be able to hit a price point that folks will take. I suspect for many that number is sub 100.00 shipped.

I base that on wearing and shopping for Royal Robbins back in the day, 5.11, LAPG stuff, Eddie Bauer/First Ascent, Prana, Kuhl, Wrangler and no name Costco stuff in the tactical/scouting/camping/hiking/urban casual space and those brands plus Bluffworks and Mizzen Main in the the Business Casual and Travel Wear spaces. I acknowledge that there may be some overlap in said spaces. Indeed, I am sitting at work in a pair of Bluffworks Khakis as we speak. It will be 100+ today in KC.

I will say that LAPG seems to be hitting the intersection of quality/performance/value quite well. They do that by having their pants made in the PRC.

Clusterfrack
08-11-2021, 10:32 AM
Cargo pockets: I put my wallet in the left one. I hate using a back or front pocket for a wallet.

ST911
08-11-2021, 10:38 AM
We are in the very early stages of designing a pair of pants with concealed carry in mind, specifically AIWB/IWB. We are going to be purposefully light on the details of what we are thinking design and feature-wise at this point because we would like some input from anyone who is willing to provide any. This project will not be complete until 2022 but we would like to get as much info as possible about what your ideal concealed carry pant would be like.

We thank everyone in advance for their time and we will provide more specific info about the project and some of the ideas we have after we have the opportunity to hear from everyone here.

Don't.

Unless you're cooperating with an established clothing vendor that you're not disclosing, stick with what you're good at, variations thereof, and that you have capacity to sustain. There is no shortage of options in pants, your product is niche. Domestic/Berry production will price with you premium gear already popular with a market. Off shore will price with you everyone else, and you'll have to be willing to uphold the standard or settle for "typical." You'll also have to pick a direction for your fit templates, which will narrow you further.

Don't undermine your brand by being the next liquidation on LAPG/Botach/etc.

Mack
08-11-2021, 10:57 AM
We want to thank everyone for the feedback so far. We really appreciate you taking time out of your day to offer your input and opinions. We are looking forward to hearing more from everyone here on PF!

Some things that may be helpful to know about the pants are that they will be manufactured here in the US, they will be made from actual fabrics and not technical materials, and like all of our other gear they will only be available on our site.

vcdgrips
08-11-2021, 10:58 AM
ST911 speaks truth.


Just ask Magpul.

vcdgrips
08-11-2021, 11:01 AM
Mack
Given your updated info: Carhartts might be another line to look at as well. i.e. their rugged flex straight.

Hot Sauce
08-11-2021, 09:29 PM
I agree with vcdgrips about using the 5.11 defender flex slim/straight pant as a starting point.

My ideas:

Slim taper especially toward the bottom
No saggy ass
Move the rear pockets up so they don't end way below the butt
No cargo pockets, no AR mag pockets, roughly a typical jean look
Side hip pockets
Mid rise
Typical jean colors, dark blue + washed/desaturated black
Stretchy or gusseted crotch, and double or triple stitched (this is the area I blow out and end up patching the most)
Semi-stretch all over
Boxed and X'd but otherwise regular looking belt loops
Reinforced pocket lips free of anything clips may catch on
Minimal to no tactical looking shit/multicam/branding/etc



I'd add more to this list, but I want to be realistic and not have them cost $200

jrbway
08-11-2021, 09:37 PM
Mack,

Love this idea. My thoughts:

Keep the front belt loops spaced wide and use dual belt loops in the back
Deep pockets
Simple stitching: nothing super flashy
Not too many pockets (none of those weird zippered hidden pockets, please)
Pick a couple of popular pants (Levi 514, J Crew 770, Duluth Firehose) to compare with on sizing
Donít make the leg opening too wide, please
Decent fabric with just enough stretch. IMO the current J Crew Stretch Chinos are just about perfect
Embrace the 5-pocket Chino scene. I suggest light gray, stone (light khaki), khaki, olive, and navy
Gustinís model of crowdfunding works

Yung
08-11-2021, 09:56 PM
I wear an ankle cuff for medical stuff. I can make it work with a straight or loose taper, not so much on slim.

tlong17
08-12-2021, 09:26 AM
NO CARGO POCKETS.

If you decide to go with cargo pockets...consider a second option that doesn't have them.

Nothing like having a shit ton of cargo pockets and looking like I just air dropped into Home Despot on a Saturday morning.

Mack
08-12-2021, 02:01 PM
We have had a lot of input so far both here and via email which we appreciate very much.

Some things that we would like to add for clarity based on the feedback we have gotten so far is that we will not be making tac pants or anything that remotely resembles tac pants, cargo pants, or the like.

Our goal is to make normal looking garments with modest adjustments to the designs to make them conducive for carry, specifically AIWB and to a lesser degree IWB. As you may have heard us say in the past when talking about belts that the design of one's pants can have a dramatic influence of comfort and concealment. Having tried countless brands and styles of pants from all over the world we have yet to find something we are completely satisfied with as none of them are designed from inception to aid in AIWB/IWB carry.

We do have previous experience with small scale garment manufacturing and will be making everything here in the US from US and other premium materials when US sources are not available (most likely Italian, British, and Japanese fabric). Initially everything would be available in small runs, and we are hopeful that we can help those that are searching for regular type clothing options that have subtle design features that make them great for carry.

GearFondler
08-12-2021, 02:13 PM
So how about a transparent vinyl pocket for my CCW badge?

[emoji12]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210812/37624cabaa6dcd0967ae8a682b2d0c75.jpg

Trooper224
08-12-2021, 02:53 PM
Design two different styles. One with plenty of pockets, for those who like to carry everything but the kitchen sink. The second pair in more of a chino/business casual style for those of us who don't dress like a tactical fireman. Include a stretch waist and a straight leg to accommodate ankle holsters. Make them in more colors than olive drab and flat dark earth. 1.5 inch loops.

Duces Tecum
08-12-2021, 03:00 PM
Double tap.

Duces Tecum
08-12-2021, 03:03 PM
https://ccwbreakaways.com

1) These guys don't seem to have much market penetration, but they do have a presence.
Perhaps the company could be purchased?

2) Your timing could be spot on. NYSRPA v. Corlett was granted cert last April. The Orals are anticipated for November. Final judgement probably in late June, 2022. The reasonable expectation is that SCOTUS will determine the Constitutional right to be "shall issue". This would open up most of the northeast to concealed carry.

Reference: https://d3uwh8jpzww49g.cloudfront.net/sharedmedia/1511334/2020-12-17-nra-corlett-cert-petition-final.pdf

Jay585
08-12-2021, 03:23 PM
Mack,

If you're doing jeans, I really liked the Fran Demin (https://frandenim.com/) line of pants. Great pocket depth and fabric. Only issue with the jean is the placement of the belt loops (an inch back towards the hips would've been perfect), and personally I would've preferred a higher waistline.

I've got a brand new pair that I can send you for examination if need be.

BehindBlueI's
08-12-2021, 05:39 PM
https://ccwbreakaways.com

1) These guys don't seem to have much market penetration, but they do have a presence.
Perhaps the company could be purchased?


Those pants look like they have a diaper up front, especially the jeans.

BehindBlueI's
08-12-2021, 05:40 PM
We have had a lot of input so far both here and via email which we appreciate very much.

Some things that we would like to add for clarity based on the feedback we have gotten so far is that we will not be making tac pants or anything that remotely resembles tac pants, cargo pants, or the like.

Our goal is to make normal looking garments with modest adjustments to the designs to make them conducive for carry, specifically AIWB and to a lesser degree IWB. As you may have heard us say in the past when talking about belts that the design of one's pants can have a dramatic influence of comfort and concealment. Having tried countless brands and styles of pants from all over the world we have yet to find something we are completely satisfied with as none of them are designed from inception to aid in AIWB/IWB carry.

We do have previous experience with small scale garment manufacturing and will be making everything here in the US from US and other premium materials when US sources are not available (most likely Italian, British, and Japanese fabric). Initially everything would be available in small runs, and we are hopeful that we can help those that are searching for regular type clothing options that have subtle design features that make them great for carry.

The only thing I'd ask is real measurements, of not just the waist but the seat and thighs, available to customers. I never buy pants online unless they are the exact same as ones I've already tried at a store and there is a generous return policy just in case they've changed something in the interim.

Eric_L
08-13-2021, 11:34 AM
The only thing I'd ask is real measurements, of not just the waist but the seat and thighs, available to customers. I never buy pants online unless they are the exact same as ones I've already tried at a store and there is a generous return policy just in case they've changed something in the interim.

Great idea on measurements. Mack, if you look down in fit, this is an example of revealing measurements, which can be compared to a known pair of pants. I did this and they fit correctly when I received them.

https://outlier.nyc/collections/pants/products/bombworks

Mack
08-13-2021, 03:12 PM
We would definitely provide relevant measurements. Most high-end pants/jeans provide detailed measurements (waist, seat, thigh, knee, leg opening, front rise, back rise), not sure why so many tactical and outdoor oriented companies donít provide much in the way of useful measurements.

ThinBlueSars
08-14-2021, 02:12 PM
Just like a couple of other individuals above.I like the 5.11 defender slim pants/jeans. I own about 4 of them in different colors. I used to wear a lot of high end denim jeans and chinos but many of them do not add any stretch to the denim or cloth.

Reasons I like those pants:
- look like chinos or normal jeans
- slim fit with a 7.5" hem opening
- 1-2% stretch to go with various weight variations during the day
- price when it was on sale which was around $30-40 which puts in on the lines of Levis 501 that my father wore since the 60s

things I look for in my aiwb jeans/pants/whatever:
- gusseted crotch or a crotch that will not blow out from normal activities aka bending and sitting
- more belt loops or tucked belt loops as they are more functional and stronger in my opinion (double loop on rear or at least 5+ loops)
- normal amount of pockets work for me or an additional smaller mag pocket near hip (i usually just have a mag carrier on my belt line)
- durable pocket for knife clips
- breathable material
- actual measurements

what I don't want or like
- OLD Stock Cone Mills Denim that is very generic in the denim world unless its something actually rare from the Mill (if denim is chosen)
- too many pockets or pockets too small or pockets weirdly shaped

JRV
08-14-2021, 04:40 PM
Tons of people have given tons of useful specs and ideas. Iíll pitch in with a quality of a bad carry pant: excessively loose belt loops.

I have a shorts and pants with belt loops ranging from just over 1.5Ē to nearly 2Ē in height. The 1.5Ē loops fit my Specialist belts like gloves, so itís like the whole garment is locked in with the belt is locked in with the holster. Completely flex-free draws, super stable ride, and with a junk carry pillow, zero hot spots.

Pants with big loops? A reinforced belt has two options: cinch down into oblivion, or cantilever and flip around in the belt loop based on the gunís position. You go to draw, and the belt has room to flex and twist a tiny bit. Not ideal.

Le FranÁais
08-14-2021, 06:50 PM
Tons of people have given tons of useful specs and ideas. Iíll pitch in with a quality of a bad carry pant: excessively loose belt loops.

I have a shorts and pants with belt loops ranging from just over 1.5Ē to nearly 2Ē in height. The 1.5Ē loops fit my Specialist belts like gloves, so itís like the whole garment is locked in with the belt is locked in with the holster. Completely flex-free draws, super stable ride, and with a junk carry pillow, zero hot spots.

Pants with big loops? A reinforced belt has two options: cinch down into oblivion, or cantilever and flip around in the belt loop based on the gunís position. You go to draw, and the belt has room to flex and twist a tiny bit. Not ideal.

Yes! Here is a quote from the product description of a pair of so-called tactical jeans: "2 1/4" long, reinforced belt loops"

I'm idly curious about who thought that was a good thing, and why they thought so. When I got to that line, I immediately decided not to buy those pants.

El Cid
08-15-2021, 04:23 PM
Design two different styles. One with plenty of pockets, for those who like to carry everything but the kitchen sink. The second pair in more of a chino/business casual style for those of us who don't dress like a tactical fireman. Include a stretch waist and a straight leg to accommodate ankle holsters. Make them in more colors than olive drab and flat dark earth. 1.5 inch loops.

This! I carry a G26 as a BUG daily as well as an ankle med kit on the opposite leg. Itís getting more and more challenging to find pants that allow this. The skinny pants nonsense has invaded al pants manufacturing it seems.

Iíll also add my vote to the belt loops - 1.5Ē with just enough extra room for thicker CCW style belts. Also the back center should have 3 sturdy loops. Not a tunnel. Not a single loop.

I donít want cargo pockets unless I get access to a time machine and need to return to 1995. Lol! But the cell phone side pockets are money. Iíd like one on each side but they canít be too low. The TD Carlos Ray pants have them way too low and the phones flop around, are uncomfortable when seated, and fall out. The VertX Cutback Technical pants have ideal phone pockets IMO.

I also agree with the pockets being able to support pocket carry of a G43/J-frame. Especially if youíll offer these as shorts down the road. Back pockets should be flapless as the flaps tend to cause the untucked shirt to hang up in my experience.

Color preferences: Tan, Khaki, Black, Gray, and Navy.

No logos or obvious branding to make it easy for people in the know to recognize them as gun carry pants.

Thanks for doing this Mack!