Duty Magazines Carried on Outer Carrier

[babypanther]

I am a Deputy assigned to my department's Training Unit. Yesterday I was told by my boss to come up with a quick training plan to be presented at roll call for people assigned to patrol that want to carry their Glock magazines on their vest instead of the gunbelt. I am opposed to the idea, I am not a personal fan of mounting the pistol magazines higher on the body than the beltline, but that is personal preference more than anything.

I have caught/seen multiple people with pouches on the vest above mags or even the pistol in the holster in the LE world, and I am sure this is what was ocurring for the complaint to be brought up.

My reason for posting to this section of the forum is; aside from my personal preference, is there a huge tactical/technical reason I'm not seeing with regard to allowing people to move pistol magazines off of their gunbelts and onto their outer carriers, both from a gun fighting perspective but also a combatives perspective?

[TGS]

My reason for posting to this section of the forum is; aside from my personal preference, is there a huge tactical/technical reason I'm not seeing with regard to allowing people to move pistol magazines off of their gunbelts and onto their outer carriers, both from a gun fighting perspective but also a combatives perspective?

I look at it from a different perspective.

What reason do you have for prohibiting people from doing it?

[lwt16]

Some carry that way here also. I'm faster with my reloads off the gun belt and that's the way I've been "rolling" for quite some time. While most of our gunfights were done with what's on-board the gun and reloads never much mattered on the outcome, I still prefer to be Mr. Speedy if the gun runs dry. If I carried mine in my vest, I'd have the velcro flaps holding them down and thus, slowing me down. I'd have to re-train a lot.....and I would prefer to utilize that time working on first shot hits from the holster instead of re-learning where to grab for a full mag.

Our vests aren't modular and are pre-set from the factory. There is a pocket I could do mags with but I prefer to have a second set of cuffs in that pouch.

Does your qualification have a reload section with a time limit? Ours sort of does but the times are pretty generous.

[Le Français]

The biggest factor is how much training and practice the deputies will get with whatever magazine location they use. In theory, all else being equal, having the mags on the chest should be faster when shooting two-handed; the support hand has less distance to cover to retrieve the reload and bring it back to the gun. However, all else is not necessarily equal: If users have years of practice drawing from the belt, that matters. Likewise, as already mentioned, chest-mounted pouches might be slower to open than belt-mounted ones.

As for combatives, I think there’d be arguments for and against each location. If you’re mounted by your opponent on the ground, anything on the sides of your hips might be harder to access than something on your chest. If you’re in your opponent’s side control, your chest might be hard to access. (Of course, would you really be reloading in such a scenario? Maybe, I guess...) Standing up, mag pouches on the chest might be vulnerable to a “grab”, but so can your belt.

When I was in uniform and carrying equipment on my vest, I put everything on it except my pistol and mags. One reason was that I sometimes shed my armor when at the office, and I wanted to retain the basics on my person. Another reason was that I was shooting a lot of USPSA matches, and I wanted my mags in the same place across the board, so that practice with one would transfer to the other.

[Hambo]

I carried mags on my SWAT vest because the armor we had interefered with belt mounted pouches. This might be why officers want another option. The pouch I had put on my gear had snap down flaps, which slowed reloads but kept the mags from getting pulled out by the slings we used at that time.

If you're worried about reload speed, why not run some average/below average shooters through some drills and compare times. If you're worried about officer getting stabbed, pounded, or otherwise injured because they have a selection of dedicated/improvised weapons on their vest, that's another story.

[Lost River]

Things to consider,

Can the mags be reached with either hand when mounted on the vest or belt?

Can the mags be reached with either hand when mounted on the vest or belt when wearing a patrol rifle?

Have you practiced handgun reloading drills while retaining a long gun?


Guys may even mount a pistol on their carrier as opposed to their belt, if they can reach it with their non dominant hand. As many are aware, in LE there are quite a few people that are not in shape, and if their primary hand was disabled while they were wearing a vest, they would not be able to get to their handgun. Wearing it on their body armor, where it is available to either hand eliminates that issue. Yes, (as always) there is a weapons retention issue, and some new training techniques may need to be considered for that position, but that is another topic.

simply put, what works best for one person, may not be optimal for another.

Only through experimentation will you find what works.



I would not be too quick to condemn the idea of mags, or even pistols on carriers until you have given everyone a chance to work out what is best for them, as one size does not fit all.

Cheers!

[Horseman]

Anecdotally, I see a lot of shooters struggling with manipulation and efficient reloads when they carry magazines on outer vests. It seems that higher carry on the vest exacerbates the problem. If you think of the sequence of steps needed for a reload from a vertical belt pouch, the magazine has to be turned 180 degrees at some point in the middle. I've watched shooters struggling with that turn when they give themselves less space to execute it (such as high-mounted vest-carried pouches). Different pouch orientation might help somewhat.

It would be good to put this on a timer with various shooters to see if it's actually "a thing", or just looks slower.

[KevH]

I've worn mags on an external vest carrier in the past when in K9 and investigations (this was pre vest in patrol days). I used the older Eagle Industries pouches and mounted them low directly above where I would normally carry mags on a duty belt. Honestly, with a little practice, I didn't find it much slower or awkward than mags on a belt. Just make sure they train with it and get used to it prior to deployment.

Just make sure they don't mount them up high or in some position dissimilar to where they would carry them on a belt.

Edited to add: Keep the gun off the vest. We've had at least one guy request that recently. I consider that one a no-go for a number of reasons.

[Coyotesfan97]

When I carried my 1911 I had a three mag pouch on my belt and I carried another mag or two on my carrier. I used my belt mags first and then went to the vest mags. I carried them low on the carrier just above the bottom of the vest.

[jnc36rcpd]

While I prefer belt carry of magazines, I don't think mounting them of the vest is necessarily a problem. While we can debate whether magazines are easier to retain on the vest or the belt, a suspect obtaining a magazine isn't as critical as one obtaining anything else. The gun, OC, Taser, baton, and flashlight could be easily used against you. Unless the bad guy has an empty gun consistent with your magazine, a snatched magazine is not as urgent a problem as a lost weapon.

Accessing the magazines is an issue of placement and practice. I'd emphasize that in your training. Some officers may mount the carrier without really thinking it through. They will be able to access the magazine during your training class, but presentation may collapse on the range or in a shootout. This will require guidance on your part and experimentation on theirs.

I tend to agree that mounting the magazines lower on the vest in a vertical configuration is best. If they mount the magazines higher, it may be easier to place the carrier to the gun side. This reduces the chicken wing effect of presenting the magazine from the support side. That said, other equipment placed adjacent to the magazine carrier may hinder presentation.

You may also consider issues such as horizontal carry. While I've never seen it done, some want the experience of being trend-setting or unique. (Ask why my former department issued FNS-9's.) No matter how the carrier is mounted, you'll want to ensure the magazines can be accessed with either hand.

I'd also want some input regarding what magazine carriers are authorized. I've seen some with dubious retention.

At some point, I'd suggest running drills on the range to see how reloads go. Have officers download their magazines and run some drills that require reloading under pressure. That will hopefully show if things will break down under stress.

[babypanther]

Great points gents, and I thank you for the discussion points. Some guys have brought up SWAT, but what I am really trying to focus on is Patrol. My SWAT belt and my patrol belt have the pistol mags in the same place, more or less, and when I can shoot matches its obviously in a similar location too.

MY issues with the mags on the vest are as follows:

It is faster for me to carry the magazines on my weak side, at around the hip bone on the belt.

I can still reach my magazine pouch with the strong hand if the weak side arm goes down.

Adding pouches for 2 if not 3 pistol magazines takes up valuable real estate, when you add in bodycam, flashlight, pens, cuff keys, note pad, cuffs (or two), OC, Taser (which due to the mounting system and drawstroke takes a massive amount of real estate), radio, etc etc.

In addition to the real estate taken up, when placing the mags centerline or trying to stack them on other pouches, this can rapidly start to add bulk outwards. I have even gone the other way with my Entry Vest, and placing my mags and radio under the armpit.

Along with the bulk, this can get dicey when going over obstacles. The mags (and let's be honest everything else) can get stuck in a chain link fence or whatever, but then you also have a weird top heavy balance with all the weight north of your belt line.

[TGS]

Why are your personal preferences a reason to prohibit other people from carrying pistol mags on their vest?

[HCM]

Why are your personal preferences a reason to prohibit other people from carrying pistol mags on their vest?

This ^^^ as long as it’s reasonable. I would mandate the mags being on the front or the vest or at least forward of centerline. I run all my mags on the belt except a single AR Mag pouch on the carrier but at least they have ammo.

I have one goofy fucker (a supervisor of course) with pistol and AR mags upside down and sideways on the back of his vest. It looks like something he saw in a comic book.

[Ethang]

My personal opinion as a LE Instructor only goes so far. What works for me, might not work for somebody else, so my personal bias could cloud an option that works well for others. Most engagements will be solved with what is in the weapon, but the issue then becomes ingrained response for the reload. The big problem is qualifying/training with equipment placement that is not what the officer wears on the street. I would rather mandate they qual/train how they wear the gear on the street, than mandating how they wear the gear on the street. Show the benefits and issues with each mode of carry and let the officer decide what works best for them. When I came through the academy things were mandated that had been obsolete for years, but they were mandatory. After I graduated I carried what worked best for me.

[BehindBlueI's]

This ^^^ as long as it’s reasonable. I would mandate the mags being on the front or the vest or at least forward of centerline. I run all my mags on the belt except a single AR Mag pouch on the carrier but at least they have ammo.

I have one goofy fucker (a supervisor of course) with pistol and AR mags upside down and sideways on the back of his vest. It looks like something he saw in a comic book.

What's the theory? Others can reload off his back stash while using him for cover/concealment?

Perhaps a bit less snarky, a reload you can reach while prone without rocking up or "shrimping" to access the magazine?

[HCM]

What's the theory? Others can reload off his back stash while using him for cover/concealment?

Perhaps a bit less snarky, a reload you can reach while prone without rocking up or "shrimping" to access the magazine?

No, he claims it’s “faster” but refuses to try it on a timer.

[AMC]

No, he claims it’s “faster” but refuses to try it on a timer.

Yeah. The "It works for me" answer. Funny that, when you watch them, it doesn't work...at all. Adding any additional stress factor and they completely fall apart. I've seen some goofy, inefficient magazine placement. The reloads go exactly how you'd expect...including mags flying downrange from the chicken claw grip. But it "works for them".

As to the OP, while I personally don't really care for magazine placement on the armor, that's a 'me' thing. I know several officers now running external vests who really have to move their mags there, just due to fit and access issues. It's the best answer for them when wearing an outer carrier.

The unreinforced nylon pouches with velcro flaps that come with the carriers were not optimal, so Point Blank worked with HSGI to color match their TACO Pistol Mag Pouches to our carriers. That what we recommended. Of course, we were overruled by those who take the 30,000 foot view of things, and therefore know way more about this stuff than us Range Monkeys.

[ST911]

My issue with permissive configuration of external armor is troops turn into cargo trucks. Intended and sold as relief of back strain from lightening the duty belt, many just hang more crap on their armor to the point they can't reach it, use it effectively, fight in their armor, or employ long guns or irregular shooting positions. If they're fat, it goes from bad to worse.

That said, I'm a fan of external carriers and options. Smart options.

OP- Let them mount mags on the armor. Work it dry, work it live at next range day, and when their choice doesn't work have them change.

[Screwball]

My issue with permissive configuration of external armor is troops turn into cargo trucks. Intended and sold as relief of back strain from lightening the duty belt, many just hang more crap on their armor to the point they can't reach it, use it effectively, fight in their armor, or employ long guns or irregular shooting positions. If they're fat, it goes from bad to worse.

That said, I'm a fan of external carriers and options. Smart options.

OP- Let them mount mags on the armor. Work it dry, work it live at next range day, and when their choice doesn't work have them change.

We have a few officers like that at my port… one of which gets annoying with it. He put a pouch on the carrier, and then another identical pouch in front of that. Two ammo pouches, in addition to the double belt pouch, and radio pouch up front. Now, he mounted his taser on there… which I can’t wait until next LLI, because I don’t think he can get it out.

He gets all high/mighty over it. “Well, if I need it… I have it.” I’ve called him out on it a few times, being just because you are lugging crap doesn’t equate to how good of an officer someone is. I mean, you really don’t need a boot polishing kit on your person… and it shows that he never uses it, so why have it? It can stay in your locker, just the same.

We were going over old immigration gear during one training… and he questioned about the admission stamp holster. Myself and three other officers in unison said, “you don’t need that s***!” Someone was butthurt the rest of the day, and the instructor told us not to bully… but said he was thinking it, as well.

My carrier is pretty slimmed down. Radio pouch at like 7:00. Up front, tourniquet on right, radiation monitor in center (have to wear it, if I’m not wearing the vest, I just put it in my pocket), two magazine pouches on left… inner one has my flashlight, outer one is a spare magazine. Might have a pen or two weaved in somewhere (I’m on five of seven days off… last thing I’m really worrying about right now [emoji41]), as well as a knife.

Since our qualifications are 46 rounds (duty carry), I’ll swap thru which pouch I load/make ready from (do the same in training, as well). Sometimes I’ll use the top pouch on my belt (I carry my reload in front of the holster, in horizontal orientation). Other times, the carrier. I’ve yet to have an issue accessing any of them.

[HCM]

My issue with permissive configuration of external armor is troops turn into cargo trucks. Intended and sold as relief of back strain from lightening the duty belt, many just hang more crap on their armor to the point they can't reach it, use it effectively, fight in their armor, or employ long guns or irregular shooting positions. If they're fat, it goes from bad to worse.

That said, I'm a fan of external carriers and options. Smart options.

OP- Let them mount mags on the armor. Work it dry, work it live at next range day, and when their choice doesn't work have them change.

This is a great point. Many of our people do not understand the concept of first line /second line gear. At our last range session the same supervisor I mentioned was telling his people their belts and carriers should have redundant gear on both resulting in the cargo truck effect.

[HCM]

Yeah. The "It works for me" answer. Funny that, when you watch them, it doesn't work...at all. Adding any additional stress factor and they completely fall apart. I've seen some goofy, inefficient magazine placement. The reloads go exactly how you'd expect...including mags flying downrange from the chicken claw grip. But it "works for them".

As to the OP, while I personally don't really care for magazine placement on the armor, that's a 'me' thing. I know several officers now running external vests who really have to move their mags there, just due to fit and access issues. It's the best answer for them when wearing an outer carrier.

The unreinforced nylon pouches with velcro flaps that come with the carriers were not optimal, so Point Blank worked with HSGI to color match their TACO Pistol Mag Pouches to our carriers. That what we recommended. Of course, we were overruled by those who take the 30,000 foot view of things, and therefore know way more about this stuff than us Range Monkeys.

The guy is pretty typical of what our firearms program produced in the 90s when I started - accurate but slow shooters whose speed and gun handling leave much to be desired.

[babypanther]

Why are your personal preferences a reason to prohibit other people from carrying pistol mags on their vest?

Because the longer I go along in this career field the more I see people willing to just throw pouches on without a whole lot of critical thinking as to how the layout needs to work for them. And to add to that, there are also the people who are just going to buy the cheapest option available without looking into things like durability, quality, etc. I don't want to be legalistic or have a bunch of robots that just go off of the policy and can't or won't think for themselves at one end of the spectrum, and at the other end I can't have people just throwing magazine pouches on wherever they want to. I am trying to strike a balance somewhere in the middle, and that was my reason for asking in this forum.

[TGS]

Quality of gear has nothing to do with the topic, which you presented as concerning a method of carry.

Someone can buy low quality pouches for the belt too. I've seen people put mag pouches on completely dumb positions on the belt. Does that mean you're now going to prohibit belt pouches?

That'd be pretty ridiculous, right?

If you must have a policy, something to the wording of, "pouches must be worn upright and forward of the hips. Deviation from this policy must be approved on an individual basis by the {insert big swinging dick title here}".

If you have a separate policy that already addresses low quality gear which prevents people from wearing Fobus and other junk on their belt (we do), then that should be sufficient to tackle the idea of people putting Fobus pouches or whatever on their carrier. The method of carry is a completely separate conversation.

[KevH]

This conversation seems to have moved around a bit.

Usually, crappy gear placement (and crappy gear for that matter) are problems that solve themselves. Especially if you provide training that tests gear. Real life also helps sort out crappy gear since crappy gear falls apart. How does go..buy once, cry once?

Lots of us, myself included, start with a bunch of junk on our belt and lighten the load over time. I'm at the point now where I am a total minimalist with my belt (and external vest when I wear one). Keep as much crap off as possible, keep nothing on my back (between 8 o'clock and 4 o'clock), and keep it as light as can be. Over the years, it seems like more and more crap has been mandated for us to carry. I keep finding creative ways to try to lighten things up. I certainly understand the appeal of the external carrier. I personally think most of them look like crap (I still like a crisp LAPD blue uniform and black basketweave), but I get it. Anything to make carrying twenty-something pounds of junk easier and save your back. Just don't make the damn this so huge and full of stuff it looks like you have on a life jacket with a parachute attached.

As stated before, to answer your original question, when I have worn an external carrier I have mags mounted on it vertically right at the bottom of the carrier above where I typically would mount mags on my belt. It works reasonably well for me. It's basically a non-issue and not much slower than wearing them on my belt.

You don't have to dictate what is optimal to everyone. Give them options to keep things somewhat uniform and then let them figure it out. There is a guy that is a cop's cop at my place that wears his mags on his non-dominant side horizontally on his belt facing the buckle. It looks super awkward to me, but he's fairly quick with it, scores high at every qual, has been victorious in an OIS while wearing that setup, and sees no problem with it. What the hell do I know? If it works for him who cares?

[Magsz]

Because the longer I go along in this career field the more I see people willing to just throw pouches on without a whole lot of critical thinking as to how the layout needs to work for them. And to add to that, there are also the people who are just going to buy the cheapest option available without looking into things like durability, quality, etc. I don't want to be legalistic or have a bunch of robots that just go off of the policy and can't or won't think for themselves at one end of the spectrum, and at the other end I can't have people just throwing magazine pouches on wherever they want to. I am trying to strike a balance somewhere in the middle, and that was my reason for asking in this forum.

Unfortunately, placing a restrictive policy in place is only going to hurt the switched on guys that want to optimize their load bearing capacity in addition to enhancing their ability to problem solve during a gun fight/UOF incident.

There is no winning here. There will always be people looking to do stupid shit they cannot logically justify. Conversely, that SGT mentioned above will also exist in that he can attempt to justify his mall ninja shit but ultimately, we all know its stupid.

Ultimately, I dont think load carriage has the capacity to really hurt someone unless they read the policy and think they dont need to carry spare magazines anymore. If you are transitioning to a new vest system perhaps a brief overview should be filmed and put into your online policy system with an optimal way in which Deputies/Officers can or should set up their vests?

The guy's and gals with half a brain will look at that video and critically think. The morons will be lost either way and will probably violate the policy anyway. Lastly, that SGT...yeah, he's probably just a moron. :P