RFI: Used 3-series BMW (or similar)

[Bio]

Hey all, just before Covid, my beloved Nissan Xterra got totaled. It ended up being replaced with a hybrid RAV4 as the family people mover, which serves admirably in that role. However, our other car, a 2009 Honda Fit, was really next in line to be replaced, and will probably be replaced in a few years. It's the sport model with a manual, and it fools no one that it's a sports car, but it is pretty enjoyable to toss it around and go through the gears. Anyway, I'm eyeing a replacement, and would like to take the opportunity to upgrade to something genuinely sporty, that still fits the family of four when needed. This car would be my daily driver, but won't get a ton of miles, as I live close to work. I'm looking to get a car that is a little quick, fun to drive, and carries 4 people reasonably well. I'm not going to track it or race it. I don't need high end infotainment (or any infotainment, really).

The 3-series is sort of the archetypal practical sports sedan/coupe (depending on year), in my mind, at least. I was quite surprised that you could get mid-2010s 6 cylinder $25-30k, or a newer 4 cylinder in the same range.

For the same price range, a new car with modestly sporty pretensions would something like a Civic Si or a WRX, and of course those would have much lower cost of ownership after purchase.

My understanding is that luxury cars in general depreciate rapidly, and the German cars especially have a high maintenance cost, and this is figured into the low price of used models.

So I guess my question is 2-fold:

Given the situation outlined above, is there anything really problematic about getting a used 3-series, and what are any alternatives I should be considering?

[JohnO]

One of my co-workers is a real car guy. He cut his teeth as a mechanic before his engineering degree. He has great distain for BMW. His opinion is that BMW is a great car to lease and say goodbye to when the lease is up.

[rd62]

My experience with a used 5 series was no bueno.

Good looking, fun to drive, expensive, and horrible reliability. The absolute worst reliability and most expensive car I've ever owned.

It was a high end model (550i M Sport) with lots of cutting edge tech and bells and whistles though. Cutting edge tech and performance translated into poor reliability and high expense.

If you are looking at a pretty basic 4 cylinder 3 series you may be OK. For me, if I were to want to go back to a similar style vehicle it would probably be a sporty Lexus of some flavor.

I'd drive the shit outta one but won't own another personally for a long time, if ever.

[Maca]

One of my co-workers is a real car guy. He cut his teeth as a mechanic before his engineering degree. He has great distain for BMW. His opinion is that BMW is a great car to lease and say goodbye to when the lease is up.

100% agree with this, having owned a an M3; a 750i and most recently, a M550i. All were problematic with frequent warranty services/recalls.

I would never recommend an out of warranty present-day BMW. The 1980's/90's BMW's were built entirely differently (I owned a 1987 325 which was 100% reliable).

[Jim Watson]

My 2008 128i bottom of the line variant is not very troublesome, but the rapacious dealer got me to looking for a local mechanic.

Sometimes I wish I had bought that Accord coupe.

[Maca]

my experience was so bad, I bought a 4runner!

BTW, its awesome!

75213

[David S.]

I spent a bunch of time researching the E36 ('90's) and E46 (early 2000's). I can't speak to anything beyond that.

I owned a pre owned E36 M3 4 door manual from '08-'12ish. Well over 100k miles on it. I absolutely loved it. It's a simple car, and I could do a fair bit of the maintenance on it myself. I intended to track it (autocross, HPDE, etc) but never got around to it.

It's a European sports car, not an Asian econobox. Set you reliability expectations accordingly. Expect 25ish MPG on mid-grade or premium gas, instead of 40+ MPG on standard gas.
It's a European sports car, not an American muscle car. Set your torque and acceleration expectations accordingly.

Based on my research,
I think the E46 is basically an E36 with a body, technology and ergonomic upgrades. Look nicer, but a little heavier.
The 8 cylinder motors in that vintage 5 and 7 series were known maintenance hogs. Stay away.
The SMG trans might be a maintenance hog too. Not sure. Do a bunch of research if you're considering that option.
The 4 cyl and 6 cyl are solid, but have some known weaknesses, particularly the cooling system.
Most could use a suspension refresh to really perform, mostly bushings.
Do a bunch of research on the SMG transmission if you're

Ownership stuff on the E36. (http://www.corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15553&highlight=e36m3) There's a bunch of solid info buried in this thread. There's probably a similar E46 and E90 thread.

Pelican Parts (https://www.pelicanparts.com/BMW/index-SC.htm) is another great resource for OE and aftermarket parts. The have some well written "How To" Articles for personal maintenance.

I would definitely own one again if it made sense to my lifestyle. Given that you are looking at 15-20 year old car, I would expect the first couple years of ownership to be fairly expensive and maintenance intensive, especially if you want to make it right. There's a couple components (cooling system and control arms, IIRC. see above thread) that I would do immediately, unless you have a record of them being done.

If you can do your own work, parts aren't crazy expensive, or they weren't 10 years ago. Expect to pay a bit more for a good BMW mechanic than a general shop.

Hope this helps

[David S.]

For me, if I were to want to go back to a similar style vehicle it would probably be a sporty Lexus of some flavor.

I loved my Bimmer experience, and would do it again. . . but he's not wrong.

[RJ]

In that vein, my experience was:

2003 E46 330i ZHP 6MT

Purchased new and ran for 100K miles. I did all my own maintenance (oil, brakes, cooling system parts, fuel filter). Later in life the interior got somewhat ratty. I also had a $1,800 bill for a new MAF sensor and parts at an indy. Generally, maint costs were around $1,200 average. The cooling system is a weak spot. I treated the thermostat, accursed expansion tank, and water pump as consumables, to be replaced at 60k, period. I had an aftermarket/cheap expansion tank split on me coming out of Church one day requiring a flat bed home.

Otherwise I loved it. Strong smooth NA 6 cyl 235hp motor and 6MT was fun to drive.

2007 E91 328iT

Bought used at Carmax to Mrs. RJ could have a small wagon. Loved the space layout. We traded it in on something or other. It had early gen run flats, which were hexagonal shaped when cold (or felt like it). It had an amusing tendency to not start randomly. This was (I am pretty sure) part of a battery recall involving dissimilar metals and poor conductivity. I think it was addressed in later models.

2009 E92 M3 6MT

Bought used from a Honda dealer in Indianapolis, drove home to Atlanta. DINAN tuned. Had a surprise manufacturer's service warranty the seller did not know about. Cool. Thirsty V8; nothing special happened until above 5,000 RPM, but hoo boy after that hold on to your socks. Heavy. The black interior got very hot in Georgia sun. The gas tank was 3 series small, meaning fill ups happened every 150-180 miles, kind of a pain. Never gave me any issues for a couple years ownership.

2011 E92 328i 6MT

Ordered and bought new. Picked up at the BMW Performance Center in Spartanburg. Loved everything about it. Unfortunately I ordered this "Bone" interior (ivory) which was kinda not the right look for me. Should have stuck with black. Gave me no issues.

[PearTree]

I own a 2014 335i msport with 60k miles. In my three years of ownership, I have spent 5k in repairs. Like others have said, there is a reason they depreciate and are so cheap used. I don’t recommend them to anyone if the criteria is a reliable vehicle. If you are looking for a fun, good handling, quick vehicle then go for it. But reliability and cheap cost of ownership have no business being in the same sentence as a BMW.

Edit: Kia stinger, civic type R, Lexus is350 would be more reliable alternatives I would choose.

[Bio]

I own a 2014 335i msport with 60k miles. In my three years of ownership, I have spent 5k in repairs. Like others have said, there is a reason they depreciate and are so cheap used. I don’t recommend them to anyone if the criteria is a reliable vehicle. If you are looking for a fun, good handling, quick vehicle then go for it. But reliability and cheap cost of ownership have no business being in the same sentence as a BMW.

Edit: Kia stinger, civic type R, Lexus is350 would be more reliable alternatives I would choose.

The Type R is absolutely on my radar, the bastards seem stuck at $40k+ right now, though. The Stinger looks great, but it depends on how willing I am to give up the manual trans when the decision comes. I'm not familiar with the Lexus, but I'll look into it (same comment on transmission as Stinger).

I'm not needing absolutely ironclad reliability. We can get by on one car just fine for a while if something comes up, but I don't want constant trips to the shop.

[TGS]

My very first car was a 1985 BMW 535i. A 15 year old 535i...I think it's fair to say I've always had a thing for BMWs.

Yet, today I'd steer clear of anything after the E46 chassis for the 3 series if you're not looking at a brand new car. I came to this not just by looking at ratings/stats/reviews, but also by talking to people like JRB. For the first 3 years they tend to be okay, but they really do go down the shitter after 3 years and maintenance/repairs are very expensive as they make them unnecessarily laborious to work on. No shit, there's a growing number of shops that won't even work on any BMW made in the last 15 years because they take up so much shop time, which deprives them of being able to serve the rest of their customer base.

If you want a BMW more than 3 years old but want it to be reliable, get a 2-series which seems to do better than the 3-series with reliability.

My suggestions for an alternative given your budget, wants and family situation would be a Mazda CX-30 Turbo or a 2015-2016 Porsche Macan; in this day and age, sedans are for the birds. Porsches are actually very reliable cars, regardless of the "but they're German!" claims. Expensive to repair when something breaks, but they're so reliable that they're the only manufacturer I know of which will not only encourage you to track your car, but then take it in and still CPO warranty it when its 8 years old. Yes, that's right, you can buy a 2015 Porsche Macan with a CPO warranty to give you comfort of mind for the next two years if you're uneasy about buying it because of the "bUt iTz JURRmaN!" crowd.

JMO.

[JRB]

If you're going to buy a German car, buy a Porsche. TGS is exactly right about Porsche's support and while their maintenance is "interesting" at times, they're overwhelmingly solid cars, except for the 'known issues' in a given model which is usually one or two things; like the IMS bearing issue in the 996's, for instance. Easily addressed, expensive parts and consumables but they're supported well. You can always find a Porsche shop.

Porsche cars also have consistently the very best steering feel on the planet for their respective classes. Prices are on the rise now with older cars, but a 996TT or 997.1 TT are both fantastic values for the money spent, and can generally be trusted as a reliable car. Plus it's a fucking twin turbo 911, so it'll still be cool even if its sitting needing maintenance and the kids are bitching about climbing into the back seat :) 996TT's can still be found in the 40k range which again is a massive bargain. The worst thing about Porsches, honestly, are the snooty khaki-shorts visor-wearing tall-socks-new-balance pinky-up sanctimonious twats that infect local Porsche clubs. Same problem with Corvette people, really, just swap out jean shorts and dollar store aviators for the khakis and ray-bans.
911's aside, the Cayenne Turbo and Macan Turbo models can be had for surprisingly good prices at times, and as TGS said, CPO warranties are impressive from Porsche.

BMW on the other hand have spent the past 15 years becoming the masters of making everything that holds coolant out of recycled water bottles, and making their wiring is made out of sauerkraut or something. If you're interested in any BMW made after 2010 I'd lease it and only lease it. Older cars vary wildly based on maintenance, storage, and ownership history. E36 and E46 M3 hardtops with the three-pedal manual are fantastic cars and generally not turds if they're still in good shape. An E46 M3 SMG car can be converted to a 3-pedal 6MT with some ancillary parts as the gearboxes themselves are the same, you just get rid of the SMG stuff and put a normal shifter, clutch, and clutch pedal into it and convince the German ECU (called a DME in BMW speak) that all is just fine and to stop worrying about the SMG.

E39 M5's are truly a special car and possibly my favorite US delivered BMW (My #1 being a Euro market '95 M3 CSL I got to drive, that car deserves its holy status -but the E30 M3's are overrated as hell)
I've done a timing chain job on an E39 M5 among other maintenance, and holy shit was that a lot of work for what it was. Great car, miserable to maintain.
Any of the V10 M5/M6's just run away, the engines love to rod knock anywhere from 40k to 80k miles and there's no telling if one is 'good' or a time bomb. E90/E92 M3's aren't too bad with a 6MT, but I'll be honest, aside from the BMW's ~8k rev limiter music I enjoy a track-package S550 5.0L Mustang GT a lot more and you'd be surprised at how big the Mustang's back seats are.

If it's not an //M car or at least an //M sport package car, don't even fucking bother with BMW, as there's nothing special about their ho-hum offerings that can't be matched in comfort and refinement by other brands, only with superior reliability in all aspects.


In addition to the Civic Type R, WRX, Kia Stinger GT, and Macan/Cayenne - also consider an Infiniti Q50 Red Sport.
But the only flavor to get is an AWD model *without* the DAS drive-by-wire steering, and that will take some hunting to find. The engine is a 3.0L little brother of an R35 GT-R engine. The 7spd trans is strong and one of the least annoying automatics I've ever driven. The Red Sport is rated at 400hp and comes with decent Akebono 4-pot monoblock calipers and forged 19in wheels.
The steering is definitely not a German car - but be sure the run flats are matching *and* mounted the correct direction before giving up on it, because that's been a problem with many Q50's suffering from darty/weird feeling steering.

Lexus IS350's are great as well, but a little ho-hum on the HP front. A used IS-F or GS-F would be a fantastic option as well, but those are getting very hard to find and few still have warranty coverage.

If you can find one, a 2015-2017 Chevy SS sedan is simply phenomenal as a muscle sedan - it's a 6.2L LS3 powered Holden Commodore wearing Chevy badges.
Cadillac CTS-V's and ATS-V's are also worth a look if you haven't considered them too. The downside being that 6MT examples of any are rare and command a premium.

[farscott]

A very high ranking executive of a German automaker flat out told me over dinner that he would never own any of his country's vehicles out of warranty. In my experience with friends and colleagues who own German vehicles as well as seeing the requirements and how they drive the designs, I would never spend a dime of someone else's money to acquire any used German vehicle.

And I admit I love to drive the new BMW 5-series and a few of the Porsche models. I just drive someone else's vehicle and let them deal with the issues.

[OlongJohnson]

All my bad ideas involving used BMWs include gutted interior and someone else's engine. And don't even bother trying that with anything newer than an E46 unless you just want to treat it as a generic unibody tube frame and run it as a ground-up LSx swap with most of the original convenience features left behind.

[Joe in PNG]

Top Gear did a cheap car challenge where all 3 wound up buying used BMW 325i convertibles in about the same age range, and none were in particularly good shape (Jezza's brakes didn't work, Hammond's had a janky aftermarket alarm & poo in his).
It's on Series 16, ep 4.

[RancidSumo]

I'll go against the grain here and say I've had good luck with BMW. I drove a 2008 manual 335 for a few years and it was a great car. Only issue I had was a water pump that needed replaced and a slow valve cover gasket oil leak. Would definitely buy again.

Currently drive a 2013 M5 and have had 0 issues in the years I've owned it. Even though the M5 would blow the doors off my 335, I frequently miss that car. With the manual it was a lot of fun to drive around town.

ETA: Just remembered - I did actually have to change a coil on the M5 and I had to replace a couple of them on the 335. Cheap and easy fix.

[rd62]

Ooo. Chevy SS would be a good time. No miles behind the wheel so not sure how the ride would be versus a german chassis.

[PearTree]

The Type R is absolutely on my radar, the bastards seem stuck at $40k+ right now, though. The Stinger looks great, but it depends on how willing I am to give up the manual trans when the decision comes. I'm not familiar with the Lexus, but I'll look into it (same comment on transmission as Stinger).

I'm not needing absolutely ironclad reliability. We can get by on one car just fine for a while if something comes up, but I don't want constant trips to the shop.

I would shop around, even going as far as looking nationwide for the best deal if you already test drove the type r and like it. These days I don't bother going into a dealer except to pick up the vehicle, everything can be done online. And a lot of dealer's will ship the car to you for an insignificant amount extra.

The 11th gen type r is going on sale next year, the current 10th gen type r's price will drop significantly if you can wait until next year to purchase.

Another thing I haven't seen mentioned is the BMW's are pretty boring cars to drive, even the m-sport versions. Steering is numb, cornering/handling is nothing special, and while my 335i is quick it is has no soul or character. To get a fun BMW to drive you would need to step up to an m3 and that is way out of your price range.

Also another car to consider is the golf r, although you will again run into the reliability problem.

[PearTree]

If you're going to buy a German car, buy a Porsche. TGS is exactly right about Porsche's support and while their maintenance is "interesting" at times, they're overwhelmingly solid cars, except for the 'known issues' in a given model which is usually one or two things; like the IMS bearing issue in the 996's, for instance. Easily addressed, expensive parts and consumables but they're supported well. You can always find a Porsche shop.

Porsche cars also have consistently the very best steering feel on the planet for their respective classes. Prices are on the rise now with older cars, but a 996TT or 997.1 TT are both fantastic values for the money spent, and can generally be trusted as a reliable car. Plus it's a fucking twin turbo 911, so it'll still be cool even if its sitting needing maintenance and the kids are bitching about climbing into the back seat :) 996TT's can still be found in the 40k range which again is a massive bargain. The worst thing about Porsches, honestly, are the snooty khaki-shorts visor-wearing tall-socks-new-balance pinky-up sanctimonious twats that infect local Porsche clubs. Same problem with Corvette people, really, just swap out jean shorts and dollar store aviators for the khakis and ray-bans.
911's aside, the Cayenne Turbo and Macan Turbo models can be had for surprisingly good prices at times, and as TGS said, CPO warranties are impressive from Porsche.

BMW on the other hand have spent the past 15 years becoming the masters of making everything that holds coolant out of recycled water bottles, and making their wiring is made out of sauerkraut or something. If you're interested in any BMW made after 2010 I'd lease it and only lease it. Older cars vary wildly based on maintenance, storage, and ownership history. E36 and E46 M3 hardtops with the three-pedal manual are fantastic cars and generally not turds if they're still in good shape. An E46 M3 SMG car can be converted to a 3-pedal 6MT with some ancillary parts as the gearboxes themselves are the same, you just get rid of the SMG stuff and put a normal shifter, clutch, and clutch pedal into it and convince the German ECU (called a DME in BMW speak) that all is just fine and to stop worrying about the SMG.

E39 M5's are truly a special car and possibly my favorite US delivered BMW (My #1 being a Euro market '95 M3 CSL I got to drive, that car deserves its holy status -but the E30 M3's are overrated as hell)
I've done a timing chain job on an E39 M5 among other maintenance, and holy shit was that a lot of work for what it was. Great car, miserable to maintain.
Any of the V10 M5/M6's just run away, the engines love to rod knock anywhere from 40k to 80k miles and there's no telling if one is 'good' or a time bomb. E90/E92 M3's aren't too bad with a 6MT, but I'll be honest, aside from the BMW's ~8k rev limiter music I enjoy a track-package S550 5.0L Mustang GT a lot more and you'd be surprised at how big the Mustang's back seats are.

If it's not an //M car or at least an //M sport package car, don't even fucking bother with BMW, as there's nothing special about their ho-hum offerings that can't be matched in comfort and refinement by other brands, only with superior reliability in all aspects.


In addition to the Civic Type R, WRX, Kia Stinger GT, and Macan/Cayenne - also consider an Infiniti Q50 Red Sport.
But the only flavor to get is an AWD model *without* the DAS drive-by-wire steering, and that will take some hunting to find. The engine is a 3.0L little brother of an R35 GT-R engine. The 7spd trans is strong and one of the least annoying automatics I've ever driven. The Red Sport is rated at 400hp and comes with decent Akebono 4-pot monoblock calipers and forged 19in wheels.
The steering is definitely not a German car - but be sure the run flats are matching *and* mounted the correct direction before giving up on it, because that's been a problem with many Q50's suffering from darty/weird feeling steering.

Lexus IS350's are great as well, but a little ho-hum on the HP front. A used IS-F or GS-F would be a fantastic option as well, but those are getting very hard to find and few still have warranty coverage.

If you can find one, a 2015-2017 Chevy SS sedan is simply phenomenal as a muscle sedan - it's a 6.2L LS3 powered Holden Commodore wearing Chevy badges.
Cadillac CTS-V's and ATS-V's are also worth a look if you haven't considered them too. The downside being that 6MT examples of any are rare and command a premium.

The GS-F is definitely a fun car to drive and on my short list to purchase, but with the current used market the prices they are selling for is absolutely ridiculous. The SS has the same problem, to find one with under 80k miles will cost way more than $30k, and the last time I looked there were less than 10 manuals for sale in the entire country.

[Bio]

To clarify,

1.) I'm not wedded to the manual, it's just what I'm used to, and I don't have experience with any of the good new automatics.

2.) I'm in no rush, it's not even going to happen for a year or two. I'm doing research now because it's fun, and if something happens to the current car, I'll have some of the research done.

3.) The price range I listed before is flexible. If there's something really good for 35 or so that checks all the boxes, I'll certainly consider it.

Thanks for the advice, all. I'd heard BMWs had issues, but I don't think I realized they were quite as bad as many people here have experienced.

[Mark D]

Not to pile on, but one more data point...

For several years, I was in relationship with a German girl who had moved to the US. She had a deep, enduring fondness for German cars, and had imported her late-model 3-series into the US when she moved here. I can't recall the model, but it had a 6 cylinder diesel and was nicely appointed.

I was pleasantly surprised with the car - it was very quick, sporty, and got great mileage. Comfortable too - I did several 500 - 600 mile days without issue.

The charm wore off once the car was out of warranty. We spent a lot of time and money at the local dealerships. Everything was super expensive and time consuming. I reached the limit of my patience when the car needed a new headlight, and they told us it would cost $1200 and the part would be here in 4 weeks, because it had to come from Germany.

No thanks. I'll drive American or Japanese. Or maaaaybe a Porsche, if I really feel the need for an expensive hobby.

[Joe in PNG]

I'm reminded of an article I once read in a UK motoring magazine discussing older, unfashionable supercars of the time- various Ferrari automatics, odd Astons, and so on.

And it's the same problem that affects older luxury cars too- you may have bought it used for $10,000*, but it was worth $85,000* or so, and all the parts, specialist service, and so on are geared towards the $85,000* car market.



*adjust as needed

[RJ]

To clarify,

1.) I'm not wedded to the manual, it's just what I'm used to, and I don't have experience with any of the good new automatics.

2.) I'm in no rush, it's not even going to happen for a year or two. I'm doing research now because it's fun, and if something happens to the current car, I'll have some of the research done.

3.) The price range I listed before is flexible. If there's something really good for 35 or so that checks all the boxes, I'll certainly consider it.

Thanks for the advice, all. I'd heard BMWs had issues, but I don't think I realized they were quite as bad as many people here have experienced.

Crossing forum lines, but this recent thread in the 991 forum on Rennlist might give you some ideas.

https://rennlist.com/forums/991/1261391-daily-driver-for-under-30k.html

[RoyGBiv]

20+ years ago I owned a 535 5-speed, straight 6. Absolutely LOVED driving that car. It never failed to run well, but, something was always broken on it. Funniest one was when the electrically-height-adjustable drivers headrest adjusted all the way out the top of the seat. Required a tech to get it reinstalled. Seemed like the car was always in the shop for the year plus that I owned it. I would never own another BMW auto that's not under factory warranty. I sold mine and bought a 4Runner.

When I think of sporty and fun to drive today, with a manual option, I'd add the Golf (maybe a bit small), Jetta and Passat (not sure about sticks in those) to the list for consideration.

[JRB]

I'm reminded of an article I once read in a UK motoring magazine discussing older, unfashionable supercars of the time- various Ferrari automatics, odd Astons, and so on.

And it's the same problem that affects older luxury cars too- you may have bought it used for $10,000*, but it was worth $85,000* or so, and all the parts, specialist service, and so on are geared towards the $85,000* car market.



*adjust as needed

I came This || close to buying a 2005 Mercedes S600 for $9500. Twin turbo V12, mountains of torque, absolutely fantastic engine that was impossible not to love.
Then I read about rebuilding the ABC hydraulic suspension, cringed, and planned on a coil spring conversion. Then I read about spending $1500-3k rebuilding the MOSFETs in the coil packs and cringed again, figuring I'd just 'buy once cry once'.
Then I read about other persistent electrical gremlins and their various manifestations, to include windows that roll themselves down randomly, gauge/headlight issues, etc. And realized I didn't want to spend $10k a year at a Mercedes dealer for maintenance that was impossible to do myself due to lack of access to Mercedes service tools and computer/body control software.

[RJ]

20+ years ago I owned a 535 5-speed, straight 6. Absolutely LOVED driving that car.



I gotta say, your moves were pretty good. :cool:


https://youtu.be/XrSk4JuVMAM

[RJ]

I sold mine and bought a 4Runner.



Just wanted to add an on topic post. In addition to the three series models I outlined above, I've owned an SUV (E83), as well as my mom's 2002s/320i's. My first ticket was in her beige 2002, coming back from a function in Fairfax County somewhere on Backlick Road, downshifting from 3 to 2 and power sliding through the yellow light in front of the deputy. He was not impressed with how I held the turn all the way through on the power, unfortunately. That $236 (I remember the number) citation stung pretty badly as a part-time working high school student, but paled in comparison to having to tell my parents.

Anyway, on BMWs, expanding a bit on the theme of former ownership, used to be that all the mechanical foibles and electrical gremlins you'd get on a bimmer were worth it, because there were few options that could bring the driving experience in a 4D sedan/MT. You could put up with the troubles because the driving was so much fun.

Somewhere around the E9x series, it seems to me BMW made a conscious decision to appeal more to mass market, white, nauga, three year lease buyer, and less and less to driving enthusiasts. I say this as an ex-super mod on Bimmerfest, which I've been a member of since 2003 when I bought my E46. I've watched countless posts over the years on that site. I still drive a German car, but there's nothing in their current line up that appeals to me. The last opportunity for BMW for us was for Mrs. RJ, who test drove and seriously considered a new 5 series. In the end she went towards a Lexus SUV and could not be happier.

I suspect BMW doesn't care, since by all accounts they are making plenty of money in the export business, and have a good foothold in expanding markets in e.g. Asia specifically China. All about the Benjamins, I guess. Personally, I think the new M4 looks like an angry beaver. I have no clue who in the design team thought that was a good idea.

I've dabbled with the idea of a used E46, convertible, 6MT, as a run around car, but I need a 20 year old BMW like a hole in the head. You do seem them frequently here in Sarasota, as for whatever reason it is a popular car with retirees.

[RevolverRob]

In your position, my choice would be a Civic Type-R - or if the price was a bit much a Civic SI.

I would not consider anything from any German automaker that didn't start the P and end with 'orsche'.

No VWs, no BM-dubs, no Mercedes, none of them. Since you need to haul 4-people regularly and Panameras still really aren't really down the list on used prices, the answer to your question is Japanese.

And the answer in Japanese is Civic Type-R or Civic SI.

If you can stand not having 3-pedals (I cannot in a car meant to be driven hard) - then you can look at the Mazda 3 Turbo, which is a 'spiritual' successor to the Mazdaspeed 3, but isn't, because it doesn't have 3-pedals or the rough-around-the-edges'ness to it and instead is very 'refined'. I find it barf inducingly boring.

I wouldn't buy a WRX, Subaru ranks only above Mitsubishi and Nissan in terms of reliability for Japanese marques. Far behind Honda, Toyota, and Mazda.

[olstyn]

Speaking for the other species of German sedan with sporting pretensions (right or wrong, I tend to think of Mercedes as more strictly luxury-oriented), I've owned a couple of Audis, and the story there is largely similar.

My '02 A4 1.8T Quattro 5MT (owned from 2009-2016, 62K-155K miles) was comfortable and great to drive, and reliable in that it never stranded me anywhere, but it was perpetually in need of $500 for this, $250 for that, or $800 for the other thing. I kept thinking I wanted to put a software tune on it because an extra 40 HP would have been nice, but it was hard to justify when there was always something to fix, or some $$$ scheduled maintenance upcoming. The timing belt was particularly punishing, expense-wise. My current '15 A5 2.0 Quattro 6MT has given me zero trouble so far, and thankfully has a timing chain rather than a timing belt, but it came to me as a one-owner car with ~41K miles on it and I've only put on a little over 3K miles so far, so time will tell.

Ultimately, I believe Audi's quality standards have gone up since '02, but they definitely have their foibles, and both BMW and Audi are cars for people who love cars and don't mind paying to maintain them - cheap transportation appliances they are not.

[Bio]

In your position, my choice would be a Civic Type-R - or if the price was a bit much a Civic SI.

I would not consider anything from any German automaker that didn't start the P and end with 'orsche'.

No VWs, no BM-dubs, no Mercedes, none of them. Since you need to haul 4-people regularly and Panameras still really aren't really down the list on used prices, the answer to your question is Japanese.

And the answer in Japanese is Civic Type-R or Civic SI.

If you can stand not having 3-pedals (I cannot in a car meant to be driven hard) - then you can look at the Mazda 3 Turbo, which is a 'spiritual' successor to the Mazdaspeed 3, but isn't, because it doesn't have 3-pedals or the rough-around-the-edges'ness to it and instead is very 'refined'. I find it barf inducingly boring.

I wouldn't buy a WRX, Subaru ranks only above Mitsubishi and Nissan in terms of reliability for Japanese marques. Far behind Honda, Toyota, and Mazda.

The Type R/Si has basically been my default position since I started thinking about this subject, but every few weeks I get a bee in my bonnet about some other car and spend way too much time digging for info on it. My brother in law is an engineer at Honda, and there's a mild family discount we've had access to in the past, (although I don't know about the present day). Honestly, the Si is probably plenty of performance for my purposes (see the 12 year old Honda Fit in the OP), but the Type R is awfully cool, and comes in that convenient hatchback format. Still not sure about the body styling, but I think I could manage. The gray paint tones it down quite a bit.

[RevolverRob]

The Type R/Si has basically been my default position since I started thinking about this subject, but every few weeks I get a bee in my bonnet about some other car and spend way too much time digging for info on it. My brother in law is an engineer at Honda, and there's a mild family discount we've had access to in the past, (although I don't know about the present day). Honestly, the Si is probably plenty of performance for my purposes (see the 12 year old Honda Fit in the OP), but the Type R is awfully cool, and comes in that convenient hatchback format. Still not sure about the body styling, but I think I could manage. The gray paint tones it down quite a bit.

The 2022s (may turn out to be 2023s?) are supposedly being 'toned down' in terms of styling. Hopefully we'll see the unveil soon (rumors I'm seeing is in the next 3-months, maybe sooner). A lot of folks have complained about the styling being excessive on the car. I think Honda thought folks wanted more 'boy racer'. And then forgot the cars are 45k and 'boys' can't afford that.

[Erik]

If you can find one, a 2015-2017 Chevy SS sedan is simply phenomenal as a muscle sedan - it's a 6.2L LS3 powered Holden Commodore wearing Chevy badges.


If it were me, this, a Pontiac G8 or a Chevrolet PPV is where I would be looking. You can make ridiculous amounts of power, the aftermarket is good, they're fun to drive, comfortable and they're plenty useful for hauling a family around. I wouldn't be surprised if somebody's figured out how to put a six speed in one too. I know people who drive each of these and love them, but...consider the source. My daily for many years was a '96 Impala SS, after that a Trailblazer SS and currently a Grand Cherokee SRT.

ETA: If it's relevant, you can legitimately justify one of these as a family car.

[Bio]

If it were me, this, a Pontiac G8 or a Chevrolet PPV is where I would be looking. You can make ridiculous amounts of power, the aftermarket is good, they're fun to drive, comfortable and they're plenty useful for hauling a family around. I wouldn't be surprised if somebody's figured out how to put a six speed in one too. I know people who drive each of these and love them, but...consider the source. My daily for many years was a '96 Impala SS, after that a Trailblazer SS and currently a Grand Cherokee SRT.

ETA: If it's relevant, you can legitimately justify one of these as a family car.

I like the idea of the big powerful car, for sure, but I'm not sure the practical side of me is okay with a 10+ year old gm car. I looked at Challengers for a hot minute. Not a sedan, but a big enough back seat that it still works. The PPV is a funny idea that I really kinda like. I looked at Charger Pursuits (V8 AWD for cheap) on Autotrader for an hour a couple days ago. I've heard iffy things about former cop cars, though. Hard miles and unspeakable events in the back seat. On the other hand, while I make sure to keep up maintenance on my cars, and I form strong attachments to them, they are not babied or driven timidly. A big, powerful chunk of metal without lots of expensive fancy bits is appealing in that regard.

[Bio]

The 2022s (may turn out to be 2023s?) are supposedly being 'toned down' in terms of styling. Hopefully we'll see the unveil soon (rumors I'm seeing is in the next 3-months, maybe sooner). A lot of folks have complained about the styling being excessive on the car. I think Honda thought folks wanted more 'boy racer'. And then forgot the cars are 45k and 'boys' can't afford that.

I rather like the styling on the regular and Si civic of the most recent generation. The Type R was a vent or two or four too far, for me. I'm definitely curious as to how the new gen looks.

[RJ]

I rather like the styling on the regular and Si civic of the most recent generation. The Type R was a vent or two or four too far, for me. I'm definitely curious as to how the new gen looks.

FWIW, our new generation '18 Honda Accord was a disaster. We sold it after just a few months of very unhappy ownership (and I've owned four Honda Accords.)

[BehindBlueI's]

I like the idea of the big powerful car, for sure, but I'm not sure the practical side of me is okay with a 10+ year old gm car. I looked at Challengers for a hot minute. Not a sedan, but a big enough back seat that it still works. The PPV is a funny idea that I really kinda like. I looked at Charger Pursuits (V8 AWD for cheap) on Autotrader for an hour a couple days ago. I've heard iffy things about former cop cars, though. Hard miles and unspeakable events in the back seat. On the other hand, while I make sure to keep up maintenance on my cars, and I form strong attachments to them, they are not babied or driven timidly. A big, powerful chunk of metal without lots of expensive fancy bits is appealing in that regard.

The AWD Charger/Hemi is a fun combination, I cried a little when I had to turn my in.

The Challenger is the best looking retro-muscle car currently in production, but doesn't real feel fast to me until you get into the SCAT pack.

The SS was available with a LS3/6-speed. They are basically the Camaro sedan, but with kinda meh styling IMO.

[Joe in PNG]

To be honest, all the techno wizzardy is making used cars less attractive, personally.

The older the car gets, the more out of date the cutting edge gizmos get. And unlike your phone, tablet, or computer, it's a lot harder to keep them current.

[Le Français]

I've heard iffy things about former cop cars, though. Hard miles and unspeakable events in the back seat.

Don't do it. For fleet cars, there's the hard driving, and maintenance also suffers due to the "tragedy of the commons".

That said, I enjoyed the V8 AWD Chargers as police cars. Quick, with good handling.

[Borderland]

I like the idea of the big powerful car, for sure, but I'm not sure the practical side of me is okay with a 10+ year old gm car. I looked at Challengers for a hot minute. Not a sedan, but a big enough back seat that it still works. The PPV is a funny idea that I really kinda like. I looked at Charger Pursuits (V8 AWD for cheap) on Autotrader for an hour a couple days ago. I've heard iffy things about former cop cars, though. Hard miles and unspeakable events in the back seat. On the other hand, while I make sure to keep up maintenance on my cars, and I form strong attachments to them, they are not babied or driven timidly. A big, powerful chunk of metal without lots of expensive fancy bits is appealing in that regard.

GM will die pretty soon if they don't right their ship. The most expensive vehicle I've owned was 2007 Duramax. I figured it out the other day. $1200/yr in repair bills average for the 12 years I owned it. I'm going back to Toyota. Should have never stuck my hand into the chipper again. I knew better but I just had to try my luck, one more time. A friend bought a new 2013 Duramax and sold it three years later. Repairs just about drove him insane. Most GM products won't make it past the warranty period. Lots of recalls. Electric motors, hydraulic hoses, turbos, sensors, just about anything you can think of. I had a tail light that had to be drained about every month in the winter. I could have raised gold fish in there. No joy.

[TGS]

To be honest, all the techno wizzardy is making used cars less attractive, personally.

The older the car gets, the more out of date the cutting edge gizmos get. And unlike your phone, tablet, or computer, it's a lot harder to keep them current.

I guess I'm the outlier that doesn't want it.

I purposely bought a base model for my recent purchase, and my last purchase before that.

I don't like the trend of cars having their gauges and buttons replaced with touchscreen tablets, either. One of the reasons I like my current car so much is that it still has buttons for everything.

What about my phone, you ask? A Moto G, which replaced my last Moto G. Literally the cheapest thing I could find.

[Borderland]

I've noticed a trend with pickups (trucks). The latest thing from Toyota for their 1/2 ton will be V6 and turbo boost. I think that adds to the cost of maintaining an engine. I believe all of this and hybrid battery systems is for the sake of clean air standards and MPG. I don't have a problem with that but who pays for the maintenance that so far hasn't had a price tag associated with it.

This is GM's warranty.


For vehicles sold in the United States, in addition to the Bumper-to-Bumper coverage described previously, Chevrolet will warrant certain components for each Electric and Hybrid vehicle for 8 years or 100,000 miles (whichever comes first, see dealer for details) from the original in-service date of the vehicle, against warrantable repairs to the specific electric propulsion components of the vehicle. For complete details, refer to your Warranty and Owner Assistance information book.

Doesn't sound like they're too sure how this will work out. ;)

I opted to find myself a V8 pickup with terrible mileage just to avoid the turbo/V6/hybrid technology that will prevail.

I know, I'm a dinosaur and a meteor will hit me any day now.

[GJM]

In the 80’s, I had a 325ix and M3, the first years they were out. Wonderful driving cars. Next M3 was terrible reliability wise. Any more, I would rather own a Camry than a BMW, and I can’t stand the Camry.

[GJM]

Duplicate

[RevolverRob]

I'm still involved in a class action lawsuit against GM associated with their faulty ignition switches.

[BehindBlueI's]

This is GM's warranty.



That's kind of the "headline" for the warranty. The actual warranty document will define the exact terms and what components are covered. Warranties are either inclusive (covers the following things: ....) or exclusive (covers all the things except these: ...) It's certainly not unusual for different components to have different warranty lengths. Body panel corrosion resistance vs power train vs emissions, etc.


GM will die pretty soon if they don't right their ship. The most expensive vehicle I've owned was 2007 Duramax. I figured it out the other day. $1200/yr in repair bills average for the 12 years I owned it. I'm going back to Toyota. Should have never stuck my hand into the chipper again. I knew better but I just had to try my luck, one more time. A friend bought a new 2013 Duramax and sold it three years later. Repairs just about drove him insane. Most GM products won't make it past the warranty period. Lots of recalls. Electric motors, hydraulic hoses, turbos, sensors, just about anything you can think of. I had a tail light that had to be drained about every month in the winter. I could have raised gold fish in there. No joy.

GM made nearly $3 billion last quarter...

And diesel heavy duty trucks aren't really indicative of the broader market. Maintenance/repairs is going to be higher, period. My F-250 7.3 was significantly more expensive to maintain then anything I've owned.

[Doc_Glock]

The Type R/Si has basically been my default position since I started thinking about this subject, but every few weeks I get a bee in my bonnet about some other car and spend way too much time digging for info on it. My brother in law is an engineer at Honda, and there's a mild family discount we've had access to in the past, (although I don't know about the present day). Honestly, the Si is probably plenty of performance for my purposes (see the 12 year old Honda Fit in the OP), but the Type R is awfully cool, and comes in that convenient hatchback format. Still not sure about the body styling, but I think I could manage. The gray paint tones it down quite a bit.


I had a ride in a Civic as an Uber passenger and was astonished at the room in the back seat.

I have driven the current gen Civic and they definitely drive nicely. A Civic SI would do you well. The Type R is amazing of course. If I were picking a newer, roomier, more reliable car for my enthusiast kid, it would be a manual Civic SI.

[Doc_Glock]

The AWD Charger/Hemi is a fun combination, I cried a little when I had to turn my in.

The Challenger is the best looking retro-muscle car currently in production, but doesn't real feel fast to me until you get into the SCAT pack.

The SS was available with a LS3/6-speed. They are basically the Camaro sedan, but with kinda meh styling IMO.


My enthusiast kid works as a lot monkey at a car dealership driving tons of cars around every day. Chevy dealership. He daily drives a Mazdaspeed 3. In addition, he had a three-day Bondurant class in the Challenger.

His favorite cars:
Camaro
Chevy SS

He doesn't have any time in a Mustang but obviously would love to get some seat time.

Too bad those SSs are so hard to find or I would consider one.

[Bio]

My enthusiast kid works as a lot monkey at a car dealership driving tons of cars around every day. Chevy dealership. He daily drives a Mazdaspeed 3. In addition, he had a three-day Bondurant class in the Challenger.

His favorite cars:
Camaro
Chevy SS

He doesn't have any time in a Mustang but obviously would love to get some seat time.

Too bad those SSs are so hard to find or I would consider one.

I've really heard great things about both the Mustangs and the Corvettes, even the lower power engine versions, but the vestigial back seat is rough for my particular usage. If I had more parking space, I'd think hard about a high mileage true sports car of some sort and keep the old Fit for hauling duties, but we've got a house in the city with no driveway (small detached alley garage), and I'm not sure three cars is in my immediate future, which means the fun car has to have an element of practicality and reliability.

[BehindBlueI's]

I've really heard great things about both the Mustangs and the Corvettes, even the lower power engine versions, but the vestigial back seat is rough for my particular usage. If I had more parking space, I'd think hard about a high mileage true sports car of some sort and keep the old Fit for hauling duties, but we've got a house in the city with no driveway (small detached alley garage), and I'm not sure three cars is in my immediate future, which means the fun car has to have an element of practicality and reliability.

The 5th gen camaro has a usable back seat. Just the 2 door hassle. Challenger even bigger and a good size trunk. Mustang is smaller, as is 6th generation camaro.

[Bio]

The AWD Charger/Hemi is a fun combination, I cried a little when I had to turn my in.

The Challenger is the best looking retro-muscle car currently in production, but doesn't real feel fast to me until you get into the SCAT pack.

The SS was available with a LS3/6-speed. They are basically the Camaro sedan, but with kinda meh styling IMO.

I honestly adore the Challenger styling. Given my history, I'd probably be perfectly happy with the power of the v6, but would probably go for the 5.7l for the sound and the 6MT. I've heard the 6.2 is the way to go, as you say, and there really doesn't seem to be any downside to it. Either the 5.7 or the 6.2 would be a ludicrous increase in torque and power compared to anything I've ever driven barring a few laps in a Italian supercars, which isn't really comparable for a variety of reasons.

[Totem Polar]

I guess I'm the outlier that doesn't want it.

I purposely bought a base model for my recent purchase, and my last purchase before that.

I don't like the trend of cars having their gauges and buttons replaced with touchscreen tablets, either. One of the reasons I like my current car so much is that it still has buttons for everything.

What about my phone, you ask? A Moto G, which replaced my last Moto G. Literally the cheapest thing I could find.

We can hang out.

[Borderland]

I'm still involved in a class action lawsuit against GM associated with their faulty ignition switches.

My 07 had a heated windshield washer that set some vehicles on fire. They recalled mine and said it was fixed. Then they recalled it again and removed it. The last recall came with a $300 check from GM for the loss of my heated windshield washer. I had a lot of problems with electrical things. Typical GM engineering.

[RoyGBiv]

I absolutely loved my Mazda3, 5-speed. I wish the sedan version was offered as a Speed.
Bought new, I had that car for >10 years.... longest I've ever owned a car.

[Borderland]

That's kind of the "headline" for the warranty. The actual warranty document will define the exact terms and what components are covered. Warranties are either inclusive (covers the following things: ....) or exclusive (covers all the things except these: ...) It's certainly not unusual for different components to have different warranty lengths. Body panel corrosion resistance vs power train vs emissions, etc.



GM made nearly $3 billion last quarter...

And diesel heavy duty trucks aren't really indicative of the broader market. Maintenance/repairs is going to be higher, period. My F-250 7.3 was significantly more expensive to maintain then anything I've owned.

True, but GM stock has only been a buy for about a year. Fiat Chrysler stock did well in 2018 and 1019. FMC stock has been good for at least 5 years. If I were going to own any of them it would be FMC, not GM.

Of course that has nothing to do with what we like to drive but GM reliability isn't their strong suit. Most everyone I know that has to depend on their diesel trucks buy Ford or Dodge.

But yeah, diesel is a different animal.

[deputyG23]

I guess I'm the outlier that doesn't want it.

I purposely bought a base model for my recent purchase, and my last purchase before that.

I don't like the trend of cars having their gauges and buttons replaced with touchscreen tablets, either. One of the reasons I like my current car so much is that it still has buttons for everything.

What about my phone, you ask? A Moto G, which replaced my last Moto G. Literally the cheapest thing I could find.

We bought a base model ‘08 Town & Country new in December of ‘08 when the local Chrysler dealer had a “retirement” sale for a third off of list price.
It didn’t even have cruise control. That is the only thing I miss.
Electric doors and tailgates break.
177K and still going strong mechanically though the seats are wearing out. My wife has sewn up split seams with Fireline.
I have been trying to get her into a newer vehicle but she will hear nothing of it.

We bought our teenage son a new 2010 Mazda 3 during the “cars for clunkers” program in the summer of ‘09.
That was a fun little car to drive even though it didn’t have a stick.
He still drives it.

My irrational vehicle desire is an E class Mercedes.
After reading comments here and many other places about the issues with European luxury vehicles, I am not likely to go down that road.
I guess the question might be:
What is not completely boring to drive, above average in comfort, reliable, and has reasonable repair and service costs?

[rd62]

A sporty Lexus

[Shoresy]

We can hang out.

Count me in that number. Auto manufacturers seem to be on a mission to prove that not all changes are improvements. They're not alone, but they're one of the most adamant about proving the point.