Interesting event today got me thinking

[Zhurdan]

I had a fairly interesting event today while driving back to work after lunch. Ok, maybe not that interesting, but thought provoking to me at least. Skip to the (*)for the question if you don't like to read.

I was driving down Front street back to work and there's a stop light at a four lane intersection that doesn't allow left turns from the direction I was traveling. There was a truck with LA plates (most likely a pipeliner working up here in the oil fields, pertinent later) in the left lane, which is straight only, clearly marked on the ground and on the sign by the light. He'd been sitting there with his blinker on for as long as I could see his vehicle as I approached. I gave him plenty of room to turn out in the event I needed to, but the right lane was packed tight. As I patiently waited like a rock in a river, others piled up behind me and "Mr. I can't see signs". The light cycles TWICE. Again, I'm calm in traffic, I'll get there when I get there, but the folks behind me were getting impatient. Horns began to honk. I could see the pipeliner getting frustrated and raising his hands. Then he started fumbling with something on his passenger seat. (right lane is still packed, only way out was to turn left into the oncoming lanes).

The light cycles again and we're still going nowhere. He REALLY wants to turn left at the "no left turn" light! More honking ensues. He's getting even more animated with his hand gestures and finger flying but I'm not so certain that he doesn't know that it's not ME that's honking. So, I clear my cover garment on my pistol (3 o'clock) just in case whatever he was fumbling with was something nasty. Something caught my eyes just below where I was looking at the back of his head... the "reverse" lights flashed. He'd put his vehicle in park (automatics do that, standards won't). The door opens and he flies out. Nothing in his hands but my hands went to the gun in it's holster. He did his posturing, yelled a bit, jumped back in his truck and ran the red light... turning left of course.

BTW, not all pipeliners are dirtbags, but it seems that all dirtbags are pipeliners around here. ;)



(*)My question is this. When you're in your vehicle and you think stuffs about to go down... do you reach for your seat belt disconnect first or for your pistol? Is mobility more important or is the ability to get your gun out?




This all stems from the after thought of just how vulnerable I was sitting directly behind this pipeliner, er... bad driver if he'd come out with a bat or a gun. The problem arises because I couldn't go right even though I'd left enough room and there was oncoming traffic (intermittent) on the left. I probably could have ran his arse over, but then I'd be in the middle of the other lane. I'll say this, the mental jumping jacks I've already done have left me leaning more one way than the other, but I'd like some other opinions.

[bdcheung]

I have no experience or training in this, so just let me get that out of the way.

First, I would have swung into the right lane the moment I saw him indicating a desire to do something that wasn't gonna work out (in this case, make a left turn).

Continuing on with the series of events in your experience, and keeping in mind that I carry AIWB 99% of the time, my first move is to the seatbelt when I see his driver side door open after all that gesticulating. If he moves towards my vehicle, then I'm responding by opening my door and verbally managing him.

[Zhurdan]

Right lane was packed from the previous light, no useable gaps.

[BaiHu]

My answer is short, but the lesson will be longer. Go take ECQC and VCAST (Vehicle Combatives And Shooting Tactics) with SouthNarc. There is a technique he shows and I might be able to recall it correctly, but that was definitely not a primary focus of ECQC. I'm just not confident enough to share my hazy memory regarding this technique. However, I do recall that the seatbelt/unholstering technique was safe, stable and well thought out for CQB in the car and accessing threats out of the car.

[Corlissimo]

Also no formal training in this area, but I have had to deal with situations like that twice now. The minute I see the door open my seatbelt is unbuckled (have done this both times), if the person starts heading my direction looking agitated or confrontational then I get my grip established. I only had to obtain master grip one of those times and it ended very similarly to your experience.

As a side note, I very rarely pull up to any intersection with a light and don't leave room to quick escape. I even do that at stop signs that have high traffic. To me, the value of hitting the gas and getting out of there is always my first plan and highest priority. From the sound of it, you didn't have a lot of room to maneuver.

At least it ended peacefully, which is always a good thing.

[LOKNLOD]

I probably could have ran his arse over, but then I'd be in the middle of the other lane.

I'm not saying it's good to be headed into opposing traffic, but my vehicle is much better equipped to deal with impacts from other vehicles than incoming gunfire...

[NickA]

No in-depth training on this either, but we did a segment with vehicles in the Givens Combined Skills course. Two tips I do remember :
-As mentioned, leave room to maneuver. I think the rule of thumb is if you can see the rear tires of the car in front of you, you should have room to turn.
-If you do feel the need to get out of your seat belt, use your left hand, and run it BEHIND the chest belt and down to the buckle. That way when it pops loose you don't get tangled in it, and leaves your right hand free to access your weapon.
ETA : sounds like you handled it fine, especially since you met the main requirement of being aware that the situation could get ugly.
Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

[Zhurdan]

I'm not saying it's good to be headed into opposing traffic, but my vehicle is much better equipped to deal with impacts from other vehicles than incoming gunfire...

One of the things I thought about. Unbuckling the seat belt so I have some freedom to move if needed also leaves me in a pinball machine if the situation changes and I decide to roll out into the other lane (left) and bounce his arse off the hood. If I then get hit, I wouldn't be connected to anything.

More simply, you kinda have to decide farther up the curve if you're going to use your vehicle or your pistol. Being he was empty handed, the vehicle serves as a great barrier even if I didn't have to hit him, it puts metal between me and him. But, just because he was empty handed doesn't mean he's not armed.

Personally, thru the mental jumping jacks I've been doing since 1pm, and I could be totally incorrect as I haven't taken a class on it (would love to but 2012 remaining schedule isn't practical for me, maybe next year)... I'm leaning towards unbuckle at the first sign of trouble. This allows me to either draw if it's a gun he present and to move to the other side of the truck if it's a bat and gain time and distance to make more decision. If he beats the hell out of my truck... so be it, that can be fixed.

[CCT125US]

In my case (AIWB), my lap belt goes under my belt line and my shirt goes over that. Clearing the cover garment is the same process as my normal draw. However, when I carried at 3:30 my seat belt was always tucked between the gun and my body. I could mostly get a grip on the pistol and the belt release was just as easy.

[Corlissimo]

In my case (AIWB), my lap belt goes under my belt line and my shirt goes over that. Clearing the cover garment is the same process as my normal draw. However, when I carried at 3:30 my seat belt was always tucked between the gun and my body. I could mostly get a grip on the pistol and the belt release was just as easy.

THIS is yet another reason I decided to start working towards AIWB. Now, if I can just work out my AIWB access issues while backpacking/trekking around I'll really be set. Hmmm... I think there's a new thread in there somewhere. :)

[JodyH]

He get's out and yells and screams, I stare straight ahead and ignore him while watching him.
He approaches my vehicle yelling and screaming but unarmed I politely force my way into traffic preferably going with traffic but against it if I have to.
He get's out with a weapon I drive around or over him depending on where the gap is.
Seatbelt and handgun are way down the importance list when I have 2000# of internal combustion powered steel wrapped around me.

[ToddG]

(1) Add me to the list of "I aiwb, belt is below my gun, shirt is above the belt, in-car draw is identical to my normal draw" people.

(2) Setting aside all the great advice to maneuver and drive away, I've certainly been in traffic that absolutely would not allow such a thing. I don't care who you are, what you drive, or what awesome tactical driving course you took... if you think you can't find yourself boxed in you're right up there with the people who say they don't need weapons retention skills because they can't be approached by people with evil intent. You know, because they have Awareness and stuff.

(3) As a general rule, if my car is not in DRIVE my seatbelt is off. If something looks hinky at a stoplight, sometimes I'll take the belt off if opportunity to drive away seems low.

[JodyH]

When all you have is a hammer, the world looks like a nail applies here.
The majority of the time you'll have an out with the vehicle, focusing on the gun is the incorrect "immediate action drill".
Heavy application of the skinny pedal and a complete disregard for sheetmetal goes a long ways towards taking the initiative against an attacker on foot.
There's nothing like the possibility of being smashed between two cars and smeared across the street to expose how vulnerable someone is on foot against a vehicle.
Then there's the difficulty in getting bullets into and out of vehicles and on target.
Cars aren't bulletproof but they dang sure are good at deflecting them.
That said.
Ankle carry rules the day in vehicles.
If you want to have a gun in hand yet still secured while seated and belted in a car there's nothing better than a gun on your left ankle.
Raise pants leg and get a grip, much faster and more positive than trying to get at a waist carried gun while seated.
It also works under more seated conditions (think rental cars).
From bench seats in a pickup to tight wrap around bucket seats in a sports car your ankle is more accessable more often than your waist.

[peterb]

Car vs. bullets: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/thebuickotruth.htm

[JodyH]

Car vs. bullets: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/thebuickotruth.htm
They needed to shoot at the passenger compartment from the corners of the car in addition to straight on.
I've skipped rounds off the side glass and the windshield while standing 3' and 45 degrees off the front corner of the car, same with the doors and windshield pillar.