Let's talk about Gi vs. No-Gi

[45dotACP]

I'm interested to hear the discussion surrounding the value of Gi training for self defense compared to the value of No-Gi training for self defense. Keep in mind this is in the context of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, but it can apply to other martial arts that use the Gi like Sambo or other martial arts that do not use the Gi like wrestling. It's more of a grappling discussion, so it's leaving out the obvious combinations like Mixed Martial Arts contests, Pankration and Combat Sambo.

My take: A skilled player of a grappling based combat sport possesses the defensive skillset necessary to emerge victorious regardless of whether they are a gi or no-gi specialist. I feel the distinction is overblown and can be overcome with a very small amount of training required for adjustment.

Case in point: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Gi player extraordinaire and overall nerd Mikey Musimeci just won a high level No-gi match with a #1 ranked No-gi player and 10th planet (a no-gi school) phenom Geo Martinez. Yes it was a points victory, but it was decisive, with Musimeci putting on a clinic on Martinez, who as a 10th planet black belt, has trained a very small amount of Gi, compared to Mikey, who has a highlight reel in the Gi, but relatively fewer highlights in the no-gi.

If you're in a colder climate, of course, the winter time will favor your Gi style techniques...especially if your school emphasizes high amplitude Judo type takedowns. But I gotta think a strong cross collar choke can still be made to work. But then the average no-gi guy probably at least considers training for the ADCC ruleset, which emphasizes submission attempts in the first five minutes of the match (which have no points) then when points kick in later in the match, the guys with strong wrestling or counter wrestling skills will see more success, as things like guard pulling are penalized. And I think wrestling is possibly one of the greatest martial arts for self defense because it emphasizes holding a position of control for a long time, which can be useful for if you are waiting for the police to arrive. You just tie the dude up, take him down, hold him down, sprawl him out and wait for the cops.

Of course, I believe these need to be supported by a sense of weapons retention (if you're armed) and solid striking skills either way, but I feel like those things don't need to be exceptionally complex. Just well thought out.

So who likes the Gi and who likes the No-gi? Any particular reasoning for it? My school trains both (as well as striking classes) but I find I actually like No-gi a little more, reason being I'm not very good at leg locks, and it makes me focus more on wrestling, top position and hunting for strangles. I don't mind Gi, though. I just don't play that lapel guard stuff.

[MGW]

In my opinion it doesn’t matter for self defense. I just finished Cecil’s class this past weekend. He taught us and then let us drill a couple different chokes using T-shirts. I wore an under armor dryfit style tshirt and gym shorts the entire weekend. Other guys wore regular street clothes. Others no Gi gear. It just didn’t matter.

I’ve already asked my instructor if I can start wearing street clothes and a blue gun on no Gi nights.

I personally don’t like wearing a Gi but I still train both. If I want to move up belts I have to wear a Gi part of the time. But I don’t think it really matters. I think one thing the Gi does do is tighten up my movement. That extra friction points out my inefficiencies pretty quickly.

[Mitch]

I think the correct answer to this is to train both, but if I had to choose one for self defense I’d recommend training in the gi. Reason being it makes grip breaking and pin escapes more difficult, and forces you to protect your neck more because there’s a big rope around it constantly. I think there’s other Jiu Jitsu specific training benefits to spending some time in the gi, but strictly looking at self defense I think those are the biggest benefits that are a little more present in the gi.

I like both though and find myself training about 50/50. Long term I could see no gi becoming more popular in the US. It’s more spectator friendly and that’s where the money is.

[cheshire_cat]

I got my blue belt fairly recently. Up to that point my mat hours were about 50/50 for Gi and no-gi. If I could, I would train only no gi at this point. People can definitely become dependent on the gi. Due to my schedule and starting Muay Thai, I am only able to attend gi class right now. That being said, I can still use all the same grips and subs from no gi in the gi. I am betting Mikey put in the work and probably put in a huge amount of high level no gi mat hours in a short amount of time. There is a lot of cross over. There is an element of self directed training and focus in BJJ. I made sure to learn takedowns and head lock escapes. Pretty much all the good head lock escapes lol.

[Default.mp3]

And old post that Cecil Burch had written on TPI when I had expressed interest in no-gi for a more realistic self-defense training experience:

[/quote]

Man, I sometimes forget how much stuff we worked out on TPI. Those were good times when we were the Outlaws - the Waylons, the Willies, the Coes, - to the standard Nashville style gun world. Thanks for bringing that back dude.

[Cecil Burch]

Here is something I wrote a bit more recently than the above TPI post. My thinking evolved a bit, but I think this is a balanced and informed take.


"It is not a secret to many people that know me that I am not a huge fan of no-gi training, especially in a self-defense context.

Mostly my opposition to it revolves around a couple of things.

Unless we are anticipating fighting a greased up naked dude, there is a very good chance we will have handles of some kind that we can use to improve our chance of survival. This is not to say that those handles will always be the exact equivalent of gis, but more than likely they will be something that can be used in a similar fashion. Just having the knowledge and capability of controlling the sleeves/arms of the other guy and tying him up in a way that makes it hard for him to do something violent and offensive towards you may well be the single greatest technique to use in an entangled fight. I regularly teach, and have taught for more than 14 years, the ability for someone to use the choking strategies of BJJ and apply them to something as simple as a t-shirt. To this day, even against someone resisting violently, I have yet to have a t-shirt rip and render the choke impossible. With all that, it just makes sense that if we are truly focused on self-defense that spending the majority of our training time in the gi is a good thing.

No-gi, as even its most vociferous proponents will agree, is a young man’s game. It relies on strength, speed, aggression, mobility, cardiovascular conditioning, etc. to be consistently successful. A heavy reliance which is great if you have those things but not so awesome if you don’t, and, let’s face it, it is far more likely to be true for those of us in the real world and just everyday people and not professional athletes in their physical prime. We cannot rely on those things to pull us through. In fact, we need to start with the premise that all of our opponents will be bigger, stronger, tougher, faster, meaner, more aggressive, less injured, have the initiative, and any other attribute we can think of. That needs to be our philosophical starting point.

Does that mean I am dead set against no-gi, or that I believe that is has no value at all for self-defense? I am in no way saying that. I think there are some spots that no-gi training shines, and while those spots may be less important or less necessary, does not meant they should be ignored.

Where no-gi shines is:

You must actively and continuously be trying to control the other guy’s arms. Because there is no way to grab and lock down and just hold them, no-gi forces you into a very aggressive and constant attempt to secure as much control over the arms as possible. And if that control only lasts a moment, then you have to go right back to retrieving it. This is a great benefit in a self-preservation context because we must make sure that the other person cannot freely strike us or have free reign to deploy a weapon into the fight. Gi work gives you a better idea of how to control. And no-gi gets you used to fighting for it all the time.

It is difficult and somewhat low percentage to fight from the bottom in no-gi. Even a great guard player is extremely restricted in his ability to attack, so the better strategy is to fight from the top or have back control. So in no-gi, you have to put a premium on constantly working to drive your hips over and to come up and be upright. And of course this may very well be the single best tactical plan if we are fighting for our lives in the street.

Even though I dislike no-gi, I do think that not only does it offer some value for self-defense, but it also is just good practice to work it on its own anyway. I follow Stephen Kesting’s dictum that BJJ training should be 80/20. 80% of the time do your preferred type or work, and 20% do the other, regardless of personal taste or preference."


http://www.iacombatives.com/2019/05/15/the-place-for-no-gi-in-self-defense/

[Cecil Burch]

Also, I often hesitate to post things like what I wrote above because it tends to kill discussion. I think because the attitude is "if the 'SME' says something, that is final." NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH.

Just because myself, or Craig, or Paul writes something, that does NOT mean that no one else can contribute. Even if what you contribute goes against what we say, that is no reason to stay quiet. We are infallible. The only thing we are trying to do is give the benefit of our experience and knowledge. We still have stuff to learn.

So please, just because I wrote the above blog post, please don't refrain from the conversation.

[nwhpfan]

Also, I often hesitate to post things like what I wrote above because it tends to kill discussion. I think because the attitude is "if the 'SME' says something, that is final." NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH.
.

Invitation accepted. I was actually a bit apprehensive about sharing my thoughts so here goes:

I've used force an appropriate amount in my 23 (and counting) years of LE. I was a Junior Yellow Belt in Judo, went through "Line Training" in the Military and standard police academy training that at that time was heavy on Akido. With that "amount" of experience I drug people to the ground, did 1 very nice Judo throw, some wrist locks, elbow locks, arm bar takedowns (Akido) to varying degrees of success. Sometimes it literally boiled down to taking the initiative and being more aggressive.

In about 2006 I put in about 9 months of BJJ training and even competed in a No Gi Tournament. Our school was about 70% No-Gi. I was a 2 stripe white belt. From that point I again used an appropriate amount of force in my job - and I used the skills I learned in BJJ. Years later I would still use (successfully) techniques I learned 10+ years prior.

I resumed training in BJJ one year ago and am now a Blue Belt. Only Fridays are No-Gi.

My observations and opinions are based on my experience and my training. And so when it comes to No-Gi vs. Gi I believe: It doesn't matter. For example I once did a standing anaconda "hold" on a complexly naked person. I held them vs. choked them. A technique I had never even attempted before.

Most people I encountered were wearing clothes. Some were not.

Ultimately it was the "BJJ Training" that prevailed. There was no thought like, crap they don't have a GI on what do I do - or crap they are wearing a thick coat and I don't know how to grip it. It was just, do.

[cheshire_cat]

For example I once did a standing anaconda "hold" on a complexly naked person. I held them vs. choked them. A technique I had never even attempted before.
Was it a one or two handed grip? Sorry couldn’t resist :-D

[SouthNarc]

It depends. It's way easier to lock me down in a gi than in no gi because I'm still quick and strong and can scramble. So personally if I want to really tune up my escapes then I work in gi

[Utm]

I think no gi is more applicable to real world scenarios because most people rely heavily on the grips in the gi, which you won't have in a lot of real world scenarios. Knowing how to control someone who is shirtless or sweaty and slippery is important. The gi does help you develop your defense. If I were to choose I'd train no gi primarily but most bjj gyms only have it a 1 or 2 times a week

[45dotACP]

Here is something I wrote a bit more recently than the above TPI post. My thinking evolved a bit, but I think this is a balanced and informed take.


"It is not a secret to many people that know me that I am not a huge fan of no-gi training, especially in a self-defense context.

Mostly my opposition to it revolves around a couple of things.

Unless we are anticipating fighting a greased up naked dude, there is a very good chance we will have handles of some kind that we can use to improve our chance of survival. This is not to say that those handles will always be the exact equivalent of gis, but more than likely they will be something that can be used in a similar fashion. Just having the knowledge and capability of controlling the sleeves/arms of the other guy and tying him up in a way that makes it hard for him to do something violent and offensive towards you may well be the single greatest technique to use in an entangled fight. I regularly teach, and have taught for more than 14 years, the ability for someone to use the choking strategies of BJJ and apply them to something as simple as a t-shirt. To this day, even against someone resisting violently, I have yet to have a t-shirt rip and render the choke impossible. With all that, it just makes sense that if we are truly focused on self-defense that spending the majority of our training time in the gi is a good thing.

No-gi, as even its most vociferous proponents will agree, is a young man’s game. It relies on strength, speed, aggression, mobility, cardiovascular conditioning, etc. to be consistently successful. A heavy reliance which is great if you have those things but not so awesome if you don’t, and, let’s face it, it is far more likely to be true for those of us in the real world and just everyday people and not professional athletes in their physical prime. We cannot rely on those things to pull us through. In fact, we need to start with the premise that all of our opponents will be bigger, stronger, tougher, faster, meaner, more aggressive, less injured, have the initiative, and any other attribute we can think of. That needs to be our philosophical starting point.

Does that mean I am dead set against no-gi, or that I believe that is has no value at all for self-defense? I am in no way saying that. I think there are some spots that no-gi training shines, and while those spots may be less important or less necessary, does not meant they should be ignored.

Where no-gi shines is:

You must actively and continuously be trying to control the other guy’s arms. Because there is no way to grab and lock down and just hold them, no-gi forces you into a very aggressive and constant attempt to secure as much control over the arms as possible. And if that control only lasts a moment, then you have to go right back to retrieving it. This is a great benefit in a self-preservation context because we must make sure that the other person cannot freely strike us or have free reign to deploy a weapon into the fight. Gi work gives you a better idea of how to control. And no-gi gets you used to fighting for it all the time.

It is difficult and somewhat low percentage to fight from the bottom in no-gi. Even a great guard player is extremely restricted in his ability to attack, so the better strategy is to fight from the top or have back control. So in no-gi, you have to put a premium on constantly working to drive your hips over and to come up and be upright. And of course this may very well be the single best tactical plan if we are fighting for our lives in the street.

Even though I dislike no-gi, I do think that not only does it offer some value for self-defense, but it also is just good practice to work it on its own anyway. I follow Stephen Kesting’s dictum that BJJ training should be 80/20. 80% of the time do your preferred type or work, and 20% do the other, regardless of personal taste or preference."


http://www.iacombatives.com/2019/05/15/the-place-for-no-gi-in-self-defense/

Awesome info! I do tend to find as a blue belt (AKA still a beginner/newb) that I really only go for sweeps in no gi guard/half guard positions because it's so tricky for me to get a solid submission attempt mounted against anyone but the uninitiated.

I do tend to find the friction/grips offered by the Gi makes it really nice if I'm attacking and utterly miserable if I'm playing defense.

I've briefly considered asking my coach of he'd be down for a T shirt "street defense" day tho...

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[Mitch]

Awesome info! I do tend to find as a blue belt (AKA still a beginner/newb) that I really only go for sweeps in no gi guard/half guard positions because it's so tricky for me to get a solid submission attempt mounted against anyone but the uninitiated.

I’m not sure I’m following. Are you saying you’re successful with sweeps in no gi, but it’s hard to finish people especially from mount?

[45dotACP]

I’m not sure I’m following. Are you saying you’re successful with sweeps in no gi, but it’s hard to finish people especially from mount?Ah, poor choice of words...it's more difficult for me to lock in a submission from bottom than it is to sweep from bottom.

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[Mitch]

Ah, poor choice of words...it's more difficult for me to lock in a submission from bottom than it is to sweep from bottom.

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Oh, yeah that’s an entirely different situation lol.

I’m general I find that true for myself as well gi or no gi. Marcelo said years ago that he prefers to attack submissions from top or the back and if he’s on bottom work to get on top or the back. Not that he needs my back up on that, but I agree completely.

[45dotACP]

Is the general consensus that it is almost always best to attack from some form of top pin or rear mount as opposed to an attack from guard?

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[Mitch]

Well executed attacks from rear mount or top mount will almost always be higher percentage and lower risk than attacks from guard. Rear mount is one of the absolute best places you can be regardless of ruleset or setting.

[Totem Polar]

I have been quiet in this thread, because, no expertise whatsoever.

That said, I have discovered that I vastly enjoy no-gi more than gi. For where I am at, I like the classes’ emphasis on bonehead fundamental limb control and escapes—I just get a lot more upfront out of no-gi right now, at the doofus level.

Plus, I just did 4 nights in a row this week. Without injury. I was forever tearing parts of myself up in gi class, as well as just being confused all the time.

This is in no way meant as an endorsement or suggestion—as if anyone should listen to a grappling dilettante like me anyways. I’m only saying that I am really enjoying the MMA place, what with the emphasis on fundamentals over and over, and only a pair of shorts and one of my sale-price long sleeve rash guards to launder each night.

I fully realize that I am leaving a lot of valuable technical skill on the table—never to be explored and myelinated. I once made a decision to learn about red wines only, some number of years ago, simply because I prefer them, and it was overwhelming to study up on all the grape varietals available. What can I say? I also prefer taking revolvers to class, despite knowing the deficiencies compared to the better tech in common use.

At my age, experience, occupation, and general interpersonal risk level, I’ll take the class that I enjoy and that doesn’t tear up my knees and hands—all week long. At 53, I have nothing to prove, everything to preserve, and a bit of satisfaction that I can still scramble with the kids and not barf up a lung. And, hell, it’s my hundred bucks a month to allocate.

Again, I have no jits creds whatsoever, so grain of salt. Just my personal preference as a beginner old guy.

[Totem Polar]

Totally OT, but: somebody threw up during live no-gi rolling tonight. And they were at least 2 decades younger than me. That is all.
:cool:

[BobM]

Totally OT, but: somebody threw up during live no-gi rolling tonight. And they were at least 2 decades younger than me. That is all.
:cool:

Not on you I hope.

[Cecil Burch]

Is the general consensus that it is almost always best to attack from some form of top pin or rear mount as opposed to an attack from guard?

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"best" is subjective and contextual.

Attacking from top or the back is going to be much higher percentage simply because 1) you have gravity generally on your side, and 2) you have more positional control over what the other guy is doing. These are superior positions because of that. Guard is at best 50/50 neutral (or, depending on who is doing what, it might be something like 52/48 on either side or similar) and as such means there is a greater chance of the other guy being able to stop what you are doing.

But all of that is a general approach, and does not take into account the nuances of grappling. Someone can build a great guard game and be hugely successful with it - Roger Gracie, my professor, and Rudson Matteus come to immediate mind.

And the mention of Marcelo Garcia is a great illustration of this contextual idea. He doe snot do a lot of work from guard, but there is a very specific reason for that. Take a look at his build sometime. For his size/weight class he has incredibly stubby legs. He will always have a problem using guard against someone his weight division or bigger, so he avoids it as much as possible. The attack that "made him" as someone to pay attention to in the BJJ world in the early 2000's was an armdrag to a backtake. He would hit that on everyone and was rarely forced to use guard. Contrast that with a Roger Gracie who with his longer than normal legs makes his guard work very practical.

So don't think of it as either/or, but as something that may work for you or in a particular situation.

[Sal Picante]

So who likes the Gi and who likes the No-gi?

"Yes!" ;)




I usually just go to class - whatever class I can fit into my schedule...
I find that I'm usually working on some concept or whatever... I try to just make that the singular focus in gi/no-gi, whatever...
It's the concept that drives it, for me...

I think Lemmy of Motörhead summed it up best when he said, "The pleasure is to play, makes no difference what you say..."

[smells like feet]

I am a hardcore no gi guy, but I just wanted to stick my opinion in about the Judo that others mentioned in passing.

Everyone interested in grappling in a "street" context will benefit from learning some basic Judo...and this requires either cross training at a Judo school or being fortunate enough to train with BJJ coaches who have a judo background...either way you will end up training in a gi.

I will even suggest that basic judo throws are equally or more important than gi chokes.

Also I recognise I opened a giant can of worms as what is a Judo vs BJJ technique....but I think we generally understand what each means in a contemporary context without delving into what Helio learned from who.

[45dotACP]

I am a hardcore no gi guy, but I just wanted to stick my opinion in about the Judo that others mentioned in passing.

Everyone interested in grappling in a "street" context will benefit from learning some basic Judo...and this requires either cross training at a Judo school or being fortunate enough to train with BJJ coaches who have a judo background...either way you will end up training in a gi.

I will even suggest that basic judo throws are equally or more important than gi chokes.

Also I recognise I opened a giant can of worms as what is a Judo vs BJJ technique....but I think we generally understand what each means in a contemporary context without delving into what Helio learned from who.

It doesn't seem like a huge can of worms to me. Judo techniques are friggin awesome! Slamming someone on the pavement with an Uchi Mata or Harai Goshi is a sure way to end a fight.

But then I kinda feel the same way about some Greco Roman wrestling moves... especially those really high amplitude suplex throws. Big oof.

I've become a huge fan of the shoulder throw (seoi nage) and the firemen's carry (kata guruma) as well and those are seen in Wrestling, Judo, BJJ and Sambo. Seems like many effective martial arts are similar in appearance.

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[jmf552]

I studied Judo and Japanese Jiu Jitsu back in the day, as well as years of Karate', but I got away from it for decades. Six months ago, at age 68, I got back into martial arts with Muay Thai and BJJ. My opinion is purely subjective, though, as I am identifying as a complete beginner.

I started with Nogi and then switched to Gi. Today I decided to go back to Nogi only, not for any philosophy of self defense, but because of the basic idea that I will learn the most from the variation I will do the most. And I don't like the Gi. I bought a decent one, the one the instructor recommended and it seems good quality. But I hate it. It is uncomfortable and hot. I feel like I am spending too much of the class keeping my Gi pants and belt tied. And I wore Gi's for many years, so I know how to do all that. I just forgot what a strange garment they are.

Also, as a beginner, I find BJJ complicated enough with Nogi. I think it is more complicated with Gi. More details to remember or get wrong. That is all my humble opinion, but I'm stickin' with it.

[Flamingo]

I feel like I am spending too much of the class keeping my Gi pants and belt tied.

If you decide to try Gi again look at Origin (https://originmaine.com/bjj-mma-fit/just-gi-pants/)'s Gi pants. They fit a lot better than most and wear more like regular pants.

[Totem Polar]

I just forgot what a strange garment they are.


The only reason we even still have Gis is because it would get real expensive, real quick replacing T-shirts and tac pants/sweats if we controlled, locked, choked and threw each other in street clothes 4 nights a week.
:)

[jmf552]

The only reason we even still have Gis is because it would get real expensive, real quick replacing T-shirts and tac pants/sweats if we controlled, locked, choked and threw each other in street clothes 4 nights a week.
:)
LOL. So the theory is gi's are needed so we can practice techniques that involve grabbing gi's. That could be seen as a problem being created by a solution. In nogi, and in most wrestling styles, grabbing clothing is not allowed. So the techniques have to work no matter what the opponent might be wearing. I do think gi training is very useful, but I also notice it seems to spawn techniques that will only work on an opponent with an actual gi, not just street clothes. Those techniques work in competition, but that is not my interest.

[Totem Polar]

LOL. So the theory is gi's are needed so we can practice techniques that involve grabbing gi's. That could be seen as a problem being created by a solution. In nogi, and in most wrestling styles, grabbing clothing is not allowed. So the techniques have to work no matter what the opponent might be wearing. I do think gi training is very useful, but I also notice it seems to spawn techniques that will only work on an opponent with an actual gi, not just street clothes. Those techniques work in competition, but that is not my interest.

Cecil Burch has written on this topic at reasonable length. He absolutely convinced on the value of Gi vs no-gi for real world defense. I see the gi as a durable substitute for the sweatshirts, jean jackets and leather coats that we all wear in the PNW. As I am typing this, I’m in a coffeeshop, and I don’t see anyone not wearing something that could be used to cross-collar choke them (Stop! Creeper time…). That said, I have the least competition mindset of any BJJ player around. I practice no gi because I enjoy it more, and I injure myself less. Plus, it’s still better than “crane beak hand and a sharp word,” if that makes sense. I’m with you all the way on the universality of no-gi, if not the sophistication.

Seriously though, I will absolutely defer to Cecil’s expertise on this one. The debate is pretty much right in his wheelhouse.

I still like no-gi though.
:)

[45dotACP]

I've been doing a lot more Gi lately when I wind up going to open mats at a nearby gym. The lapel games are still not my cuppa tea, but I use a shitload of cross collar and Bow and Arrow chokes alongside collar/sleeve control.


When I roll with the black belts, the cross collar choke comes on really damn fast.

I don't see those being ineffective in a sweatshirt/jacket.

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[jmf552]

Cecil Burch has written on this topic at reasonable length. He absolutely convinced on the value of Gi vs no-gi for real world defense. I see the gi as a durable substitute for the sweatshirts, jean jackets and leather coats that we all wear in the PNW. As I am typing this, I’m in a coffeeshop, and I don’t see anyone not wearing something that could be used to cross-collar choke them (Stop! Creeper time…). That said, I have the least competition mindset of any BJJ player around. I practice no gi because I enjoy it more, and I injure myself less. Plus, it’s still better than “crane beak hand and a sharp word,” if that makes sense. I’m with you all the way on the universality of no-gi, if not the sophistication.

Seriously though, I will absolutely defer to Cecil’s expertise on this one. The debate is pretty much right in his wheelhouse.

I still like no-gi though.
:)
And I am not going to be one to argue with an expert like Mr. Burch. I am planning on going to one of his upcoming workshops on real world self defense, which BTW, is done in street clothes, so basically Nogi. But as a beginner, I am trying to develop capability from the ground up (pun intended) and from my humble perspective, I get more out of Nogi and I enjoy it more, so I will do it more. I may get back into Gi at some point, but that is where I'm at now.

[Flamingo]

And I am not going to be one to argue with an expert like Mr. Burch. I am planning on going to one of his upcoming workshops on real world self defense, which BTW, is done in street clothes, so basically Nogi. But as a beginner, I am trying to develop capability from the ground up (pun intended) and from my humble perspective, I get more out of Nogi and I enjoy it more, so I will do it more. I may get back into Gi at some point, but that is where I'm at now.

Street clothes are closer to wearing a gi than the rashguard and board shorts most people do no-gi in. Enjoying no-gi more is reason enough to do it, at least you are rolling regularly.

[jmf552]

Street clothes are closer to wearing a gi than the rashguard and board shorts most people do no-gi in. Enjoying no-gi more is reason enough to do it, at least you are rolling regularly.
So should I bring multiple T-shirts because they are all going to get ripped up? ;)

[EPF]

IMO gi vs no gi is irrelevant if your primary reason for training is self defense. Learning the fundamentals of positional dominance, escapes, reversals/sweeps, etc. is basically the same as applied to self defense.

What I learned from being a long time Shivworks acolyte is that there is still a ~10% modification to your bjj technique/strategy required to apply it to a weapons based environment. Learning to make those changes, such as focusing on hand/arm control, requires additional work on top of your standard mat time regardless of your attire.

Train what you enjoy. I personally train both but spend 75% of my mat time in a gi. For self defense train grappling, preferably bjj, and put in the work to learn to apply it to the “weapons based” environment of the real world.

[Totem Polar]

So should I bring multiple T-shirts because they are all going to get ripped up? ;)

Cecil will have both plenty of T-shirts, and an answer.
:D

On the topic of his weekend seminars, I’ve done 3 full courses with him (and Flamingo, conveniently), plus change, and I intend on training with Cecil and the crew some more. I recommend his IAJJ course unreservedly.

I also think that EPF nailed it, above—with the caveat that I’m no expert. My sense thus far is that just getting any mat time at all, and then grabbing a seminar with any of the Shivworks crew to custom-tune that prior work will yield the quickest functional results for a pure “American streets” defensive skill set. I can say that the limited regular rolling that I’ve done has allowed me to better absorb concepts from Cecil’s seminar and, conversely, those seminars sure helped sort out the miasma of arms, legs, and techniques that is the first year of BJJ for everyone. Regular work, with periodic specialized fine-tuning is a damn fine recipe for progress. JMO.

[ford.304]

Personally I've found that I stay much healthier when I train no gi. In gi I am constantly getting a fingers sprained, gi burn on my face from a missed choke, or new cauliflower ear.

I also kind of hate when people just grab onto my gi and I can't move where I want to even when I'm squishing them in top position, but that's mostly a "flaws in my jiu jitsu" problem ;-)

I'm not a young guy, but my game is more "flowy," so being free to move past and around people, or having my passing based more on angles than pant grips. I also like how many no gi concepts translate cleanly to gi.

I also have weak grips, better wrestling than judo, love heel hooks, and my collar choke game is weak, so... take it as you will. I think they're both pretty darn useful training.