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View Full Version : How many hands do you have? How many do you need?



bdcheung
07-27-2012, 11:29 AM
I need three, in a nighttime home defense situation.

One to hold the firearm.

One to hold the flashlight.

One to hold the phone while I talk to 911 (and have them record the call).

LHS
07-27-2012, 11:45 AM
They make lights that mount on guns. And speakerphones.

bdcheung
07-27-2012, 01:21 PM
I've read mixed thoughts on the efficacy of WML's for home defense. The top of which is that, unless your WML is super floody, you're essentially pointing your gun at whatever you're trying to identify.

Also, is speakerphone really that great of an idea when confronting an unknown contact?

EMC
07-27-2012, 01:27 PM
I've read mixed thoughts on the efficacy of WML's for home defense. The top of which is that, unless your WML is super floody, you're essentially pointing your gun at whatever you're trying to identify.

Also, is speakerphone really that great of an idea when confronting an unknown contact?

Marriage is a great institution. Divide and conquer.

Jay Cunningham
07-27-2012, 01:37 PM
The top of which is that, unless your WML is super floody, you're essentially pointing your gun at whatever you're trying to identify.

What is the point of a WML, then?

LHS
07-27-2012, 01:41 PM
I've read mixed thoughts on the efficacy of WML's for home defense. The top of which is that, unless your WML is super floody, you're essentially pointing your gun at whatever you're trying to identify.

Also, is speakerphone really that great of an idea when confronting an unknown contact?

If someone's breaking into my house, I'm ID'ing them with a white light immediately prior to deciding whether or not to shoot them. Thus, the WML is just fine for this. A hand-held light is nice to have, but for a bump-in-the-night, I'd rather have a WML.

If you're shining a light on someone, I don't think the speakerphone will give you away. Also, there's always Bluetooth headsets.

bdcheung
07-27-2012, 01:45 PM
What is the point of a WML, then?

I'm not claiming to have all the answers, so I can't really answer your question. I started the thread to get some constructive discussion over how people organize and manage tasks in their HD plans.

WML's aren't totally out for me, but I've stated the reasons for my hesitation above. It's entirely possible that I'm completely off the mark with those reasons ;)

VolGrad
07-27-2012, 01:45 PM
I've read mixed thoughts on the efficacy of WML's for home defense. The top of which is that, unless your WML is super floody, you're essentially pointing your gun at whatever you're trying to identify.
Maybe, maybe not. I can pretty easily bounce white light from my TLR-1s off the walls or hardwood floor. I can see good enough doing that to ID a potential target without pointing my gun at it. I've watched some decent videos in the past of folks using this technique ... Clint Smith of Thunder Ranch maybe?

Jay Cunningham
07-27-2012, 02:04 PM
I'm not claiming to have all the answers, so I can't really answer your question. I started the thread to get some constructive discussion over how people organize and manage tasks in their HD plans.

WML's aren't totally out for me, but I've stated the reasons for my hesitation above. It's entirely possible that I'm completely off the mark with those reasons ;)

I'm not asking rhetorical questions. At what point are you willing to point your gun at something?

bdcheung
07-27-2012, 02:17 PM
I'm not asking rhetorical questions. At what point are you willing to point your gun at something?

At the point in time when I've decided I'm going to put a bullet in it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Al T.
07-27-2012, 02:17 PM
IMHO and IME, a WML is a significant enhancement for the GG. I have a SureFire X300 with a pressure pad on my HD G17.

I'm much more interested in IDing my target, taking the appropriate actions and winning than I am calling anybody. I can call later.

Dropkick
07-27-2012, 02:41 PM
I need three, in a nighttime home defense situation.

One to hold the firearm.

One to hold the flashlight.

One to hold the phone while I talk to 911 (and have them record the call).

This post lacks a lot of context. For instance... Do you need to search and clear your place? Do you have other family members? Could you lock yourself down in your bedroom or "safe room"? Can you evacuate the building altogether? Do you still have power, and the lights work? Do you have an security alarm? Would a long rifle be a better choice?

I'm sure there's plenty of other things that don't immediately come to mind.

VolGrad
07-27-2012, 03:28 PM
I'm much more interested in IDing my target, taking the appropriate actions and winning than I am calling anybody. I can call later.
Same.

My HD plan is fluid depending on the sitrep BUT goes something like this ...

BUMP in the night

Retrieve pistol w/ WML from holster from on top of nightstand
Retrieve hand held Surefire from on top of nightstand
Simultaneously tell wife to grab phone from her nightstand and pre-dial 911 (not hitting send unless necessary)

Search for BUMP and take appropriate action
Simultaneously wife will be heading for child's room to scoop and take to our "safe" place (has another charged cell phone, a pistol with extra mags, hand held lights, and glow sticks) ... this can be done because I will already be pre-clearing her way down the hall

So my point is I only need two hands. One has a pistol w/ WML and the other has a hand held light.

bdcheung
07-27-2012, 03:37 PM
Some good points to consider here. I'd always been taught to call 911 first, but the notion of having my wife call (or just calling after the fact) is worth discussing within our family.

Savage Hands
07-27-2012, 04:26 PM
I need three, in a nighttime home defense situation.

One to hold the firearm.

One to hold the flashlight.

One to hold the phone while I talk to 911 (and have them record the call).


Sounds like you need a woman :cool:

Corlissimo
07-28-2012, 04:35 AM
I know this is a pistol forum and all, but in just about any situation that might arise in the middle of the night I'm grabbing my WML equipped shotgun, not my pistol. The wife will handle the pistol & 911 duties as we hunker down in our room at the top of the stairs. (very defensible position)

I won't be clearing the house unless the kids are home from college or there are guests staying. FWIW, it would take a lot to get us to leave our BR, and clearing the house is NOT something I would be eagerly awaiting even though it's practiced frequently. I'm just not that good.

--
Sent from my personal Droid. Please excuse any typos, my Droid's kinda stupid. (°_°)

TCinVA
07-28-2012, 08:47 AM
If there is someone in my house who shouldn't be, they are probably going to get a gun pointed at them. I have no reservations about using a weapon mounted light inside my own house where a bunch of legal precedent says I'm fairly free to take aggressive action in my defense.

This doesn't mean I'm going to be in a great hurry to pull the trigger...but I am in a hurry to at least locate and challenge the intruder and stop their ingress into my domicile. This will not be a pleasant interaction. It will not be a conversation. They will be receiving orders at a high volume, and will have a gun pointed at them to ensure they understand the consequences of any threatening actions.

The elevated level of danger posed by an intruder inside your house justifies a point guns now, ask questions later approach.

Outside things change...which is why smart folks advise not depending on a wml as your only light. In public if a potentially hostile stranger approaches I'm going to try and determine their intentions with my pistol in the holster. In my house I will be determining their intentions with the weapon aimed at them.

So I'm a fan of a wml for home defense.

JConn
07-28-2012, 11:20 AM
I suppose when small kids are in the house, it would be bad to point a gun at a child who just got up to get a glass of water. So I can understand reservations. However, in my case there are no kids yet and I know where the wife is so I use a wml. If someone's in my house I have zero issues pointing a gun at them.

Lomshek
07-29-2012, 05:37 PM
IMHO and IME, a WML is a significant enhancement for the GG. I have a SureFire X300 with a pressure pad on my HD G17.

I'm much more interested in IDing my target, taking the appropriate actions and winning than I am calling anybody. I can call later.

I'm with AL. In my house an X300 w/pressure pad on the M&P and the call will be made after the fact.

I'm not interested in talking on the phone during a possible lethal force encounter for a couple reasons.

First and most important - It would be a huge distraction no matter the device (BT, speaker or handheld) to try and converse with anyone much less a 911 operator who is not going to wait with baited breath for you to sweep the house. They probably will be argumentative telling you to go back to your bedroom and wait for the cops. Huge distraction from the very serious task at hand.

Secondly - I don't need or necessarily want a recording of me "hunting" (as the lawsuit will be phrased) whoever broke into my house. Most state laws (know yours) give one a lot of latitude in using deadly force to stop a home intruder. I've no desire to kill someone but if a BG breaks into my occupied home they had best be compliant if they want to walk out. I'll pass on having a recording that could be taken wrong because of cursing or muffled words. Either there will be an arrested bad guy or I'll have a shot bad guy who very obviously invaded my home and I defended myself legally (we always win in our scenarios, right).

ETA - Not sure why there's a thumbs down symbol at the top of my post. If I clicked something it was by mistake.

VolGrad
07-29-2012, 05:56 PM
Some good points to consider here. I'd always been taught to call 911 first, but the notion of having my wife call (or just calling after the fact) is worth discussing within our family.

The thing about you calling 911 first is def a topic of conversation. First off, let's imagine you are buy yourself and hear a bump in the night. Let's say it isn't glass breaking of a door coming off the hinges but still something worthy of you getting out of bed to investigate. Do you call 911 to tell them you are scared? If so, they will be required to send officers. So now you are out checking things out with a gun (and light). Let's now say the officers do actually get there quickly and now they see the light moving around inside and prob go into tactical mode to "save" you from the guy inside with a light ... which is you. The bump in the night turns out to be nothing but now you have a SWAT team outside on a loudspeaker .... or worse ... kicking in your door.

Now, let's go another route. Let's say you call 911 and then investigate. You are distracted by the phone in your hand and trying to answer questions, etc. There really is a bad guy in your house and you confront him .... still with a phone in hand ... and still no cops on scene. That really isn't ideal either.

For me, I personally wouldn't call 911 unless/until I know there really is something worthy of a LE response. I also don't want to fumbling on the phone. IF I do think something has happened bad enough to call 911 I plan to quickly tell the operator I think someone is in my home, tell them I am in fear for my life, confirm they have the address (my 911 sometimes to go the next county over based on where I live), then will sit the phone down with an open line while I address the problem. If I am hunkered down then I'll keep the phone with me.

Which brings to mind something else I might suggest. Make sure you know IF you call 911 from your home phone or from your cell phone ... make sure it goes to the correct county/agency. I have called before thinking I'd get X and it actually went to Y which made them have to transfer the call and further delayed a response. Most 911s encourage you to do this test. Just call and tell them you are testing to make sure you got who you were expecting and it's not big deal.

Corlissimo
07-29-2012, 07:05 PM
*SNIP*

Which brings to mind something else I might suggest. Make sure you know IF you call 911 from your home phone or from your cell phone ... make sure it goes to the correct county/agency. I have called before thinking I'd get X and it actually went to Y which made them have to transfer the call and further delayed a response. Most 911s encourage you to do this test. Just call and tell them you are testing to make sure you got who you were expecting and it's not big deal.

This is a great idea VolGrad. Thanks for posting it. I never thought about this aspect, let alone testing it out to be sure things go as they should with ANY 911 call, not just to the police. Think I'm going to do this from the home phone and my cell as soon as I post this. :)

Corlissimo
07-29-2012, 07:14 PM
I suppose when small kids are in the house, it would be bad to point a gun at a child who just got up to get a glass of water. So I can understand reservations. However, in my case there are no kids yet and I know where the wife is so I use a wml. If someone's in my house I have zero issues pointing a gun at them.

Just a thought, but dogs are an excellent layer of defense that can help when having to respond to a BITN. If you can make room for one, or two, it's worth it IMHO. If one of the kids does get up, the dogs usually won't stir since they know them. But a good bit of barking (or that special "warning" bark) usually means something out of the ordinary is occurring. At least that's the way my dog has been trained.

Bigguy
07-30-2012, 11:47 AM
While it doesn't help every where, I'm most worried about home invasion when I'm asleep. My bedroom is at the top of the stairs. The stair case is open so that a BG would see me coming down the stairs before I saw him. Here's my solution.
http://www.guywheatley.com/photos/foyer.jpg
home security cam, foyer view.
This is accessible on my cell phone, which in in the charger on my night stand, next to my guns.
Additionally, I plan to place fairly bright lights (probably use LEDs) shining down the stairs, leaving the top of the stairs in darkness. That way, an intruder will be lighted, and blinded while I'm out of sight in the dark.
That would be my preferred point of contact. The wall behind the BG are 1" pine on both sides of the frames. Also, I'd be shooting downward, not directly at my neighbor's house. Finally, it's far enough into my house that there can be no question about it being a home invasion.
I haven't placed them yet, but I want pre-existing lights always pointing in the direction I'm likely to go as I check things out. I want to be able to stay in the dark while any potential intruder will have to look into the lights to confront me.