The pistol design elements mix-and-match game

[pangloss]

We may have had similar discussions before, but I can't remember a thread on it. I don't think this topic is quite serious enough for the Semi-Auto Pistols subforum, so I'm starting the thread here. If, through the operation of magic, you could combine design elements from different pistols, what would you do?

Lately I've been thinking that I'd like a pistol with a Beretta APX trigger system combined with a Beretta M92 locking system and external dimensions very similar to a Glock 19. The ejector on the APX FCU would be a replaceable part in my pistol. Also, since I can use magic, I might as well make it accept Glock magazines, though I have nothing against Beretta magazines.

[Joe in PNG]

I'd combine the trigger, hammer, sear, ect of a 1911 with the Beretta 92 locking system, built around Beretta 92 mags.
Leave out the firing pin block as well, so one can easily mount an optic.
Edit: and leave the grip safety off too.

[OlongJohnson]

P365 XL with a P250 action. Or just make some more P250s with end-of-the-line specs, which were good.

USP (poly/weight, unparalleled durability, ergos) with a classic P series trigger (slick DA and vastly better trigger shoe shape) and a PIC rail.

SP101 with an optimized-diameter six-shot cylinder, like the 856.



If S&W made an eight-shot version of this gun in .357 with no lock, I'd totally buy it:
https://www.smith-wesson.com/firearms/model-629

Also, a scandium 315 with whatever barrel length was needed for full-length ejector rod, steel cylinder, standard adjustable sights, no lock.

[Joe in PNG]

I've mentioned that NAA making a Velo Dog style DAO folding trigger Mini in .22 Mag would be interesting.

[GearFondler]

A Glock with a fully tensioned striker and 1911 thumb safety might be interesting.

[Bergeron]

I like my SCDs, but dropping M&P (or 1911, or USP, etc) thumb safties as options on Glocks would warm my heart.

USP or P30 safeties & decockers onto Beretta 92s would be neat.

MOS-style optics mounting on the S&W EZ series might not affect my life, but I have friends who would be grateful.

[CSW]

How about a pistol designed over a hundred years ago, with a great trigger and the ability for ambi safeties.....

Oh, wait.... 🤭

A glock 19 with an external safety, but the 17 grip and the striker abilities of the p99.

[octagon]

I would love a Glock 48 with Glock 46/PX4 rotating barrel lock up system with M&P 2.0 texture all around the grip and all the way up to the slide release lever using a factory magazine like the S15 mags but from Glock and with a full length RSA.

A CZ P10 series shrunk down to be as small and as thin as the 365 and 365XL guns.

Ruger LCP Max using 365 modular FCU while remaining the same size as the LCP Max is already.

Budget friendly polymer frame Alien Laugo that takes Glock 17 mags.

[O4L]

I would love a Glock 48 with Glock 46/PX4 rotating barrel lock up system with M&P 2.0 texture all around the grip and all the way up to the slide release lever using a factory magazine like the S15 mags but from Glock and with a full length RSA.

I smell what you're stepping in.

I'm probably the only one on the planet, but I wouldn't mind adding a Shield type thumb safety.

I don't care for the big lever type safeties.

[Moylan]

Springfield XDE made by CZ.

[JRB]

A Beretta APX/CZ P10C sized double stack .380 ACP with the S&W Shield EZ style internal hammer and grip safety, but with an HK light LEM style fire control. Ambi manual safety optional.
Interchangeable backstraps for small hands.
Slide has a threaded hole on either side to install a short optional peg or 'charging handle' to assist with gripping the slide to cycle it. VP9/S&W style slide serrations that are slightly wider at the rearmost of the slide as well.
Glock 17/19 style sights and dovetail, Glock style 1913 slot on full-length dust cover that takes Glock keys for most lights/lasers. Factory rear sight will be a nice sharp 90* profile with the slide to assist with one-hand slide cycling techniques.

The pistol would come with a LULA style mag loader or have an exposed follower side-tab like a .22 magazine or the S&W Shield EZ mags to assist with loading.
Anything more than 13-14 rounds would be great, but making the magazine reliable and easy as hell to load takes precedence over raw capacity.

The idea is a near-full-size pistol that has absolutely minimal recoil that can be run safely and effectively by someone with very compromised hand/upper body strength. If it could be done in 9mm, that'd be great, but I'd start with .380 ACP.

Basically, I want an ideal nightstand pistol for people like my buddy's 5ft1in 90lb wife with Ehlers-Danlos who will always have weak hands and joints, or my 71 year old Mother with carpal tunnel and arthritis. Or my old retired 1SG who has minimal use of his left arm from the elbow-down due to a nerve injury, and his right hand has severe arthritis. The only thing worse than seeing him struggle to rack the slide on a Glock 17 was thinking about a man that used to effortlessly one-arm an M240 being left unable to effectively run any available pistol.

[Sig_Fiend]

This thread needs pics!

I call it the "USP30L". P30L slide, front frame section, trigger guard, mag release, and slide release. USP grip. Ideally with P30 mags. Obviously LEM because I'm a weirdo. Would probably be less inconsistent under recoil.

74453

[1911Nut]

A CZ Shadowline Compact that weighs 4 oz. less than the current version (34.5 oz when loaded with 14 +1 rounds of 124 gr. GDJHP ammo)

[OlongJohnson]

This thread needs pics!

I call it the "USP30L". P30L slide, front frame section, trigger guard, mag release, and slide release. USP grip. Ideally with P30 mags. Obviously LEM because I'm a weirdo. Would probably be less inconsistent under recoil.

74453

So close, yet so far away.


The blaspheming of ze Deutsche perfection ist complete! ;)

I have yet to test ANY of these configs in live fire, so you've been warned. This is just from an initial test fit between the various combos. I'll create a thread at some point, but I have a lot of measurement and testing to do first.

P30 Slide on USP Compact Frame
72190

[Crow Hunter]

I would love to have a 1911 in 9mm that was lightweight, reliable and priced like a Glock.

I would also love to have a hammer fired DAO 6-8 lb trigger Glock 48ish sized gun.

I would also like both of those guns to have a rimfire trainer available from the factory.

I would like Smith and Wesson to stop putting locks in their revolvers and offer a D-frame'ish sized 6rd series of ccw oriented revolvers in multiple calibers. .22 LR, .22 mag, .327 Fed, .357 Mag, 44 spec.

[Sig_Fiend]

So close, yet so far away.

Unfortunately, neither the P2K or P30 slides seem like they'll work on the USP Compact frame (9mm). They assemble, the slide locks back, and look like they're fine. Though, I tried to function check both and neither slide would allow the hammer to drop. Still trying to diagnose it and see if there's an easy solution, but looks like they may be a no-go. The P2K, on the other hand, looks like it may work with the P30 slide as it passed an initial dry function check so far.

[Sero Sed Serio]

P2000 and P2000SK with a DAK trigger and an optics mounting system

[Stephanie B]

I would also love to have a hammer fired DAO 6-8 lb trigger Glock 48ish sized gun.

A polymer 6946/3954/4583/4553 would be nice.

[olstyn]

This thread needs pics!

I call it the "USP30L". P30L slide, front frame section, trigger guard, mag release, and slide release. USP grip. Ideally with P30 mags. Obviously LEM because I'm a weirdo. Would probably be less inconsistent under recoil.

Along similar lines, I would love to have a Walther P99 AS with the decocker button relocated to the rear of the slide like some of the HKs so that you could mount an optic on top and yet retain the full function of the AS system. While I'm living in fantasy land, let's make it a "Carry Optics" special and build it on a steel frame with a a 5" barrel. :)

[Bergeron]

This thread needs pics!

I call it the "USP30L". P30L slide, front frame section, trigger guard, mag release, and slide release. USP grip. Ideally with P30 mags. Obviously LEM because I'm a weirdo. Would probably be less inconsistent under recoil.

74453

Hell, considering the modularity of the P30 grip, I'd almost bet that someone (HK??) could design grip modules that would, once installed, give a USP squared-off grip.

A thing that I do not understand is how the squared-off grip guns are generally associated with higher performance shooting and gunhandling, yet it's a coin toss on whether new designs will attempt to follow the performance or will instead try to get super-swoopy-curvy. Is it case of "feels good in the hand" driving sales and therefore designs?

[Clusterfrack]

…a USP squared-off grip.

… how the squared-off grip guns are generally associated with higher performance shooting and gunhandling

I vastly prefer a Glocklike (USPlike) square grip to a sculpted round ‘ergonomic’ grip (p30, M&P). For me, the square shape presents an unambiguous grip. There’s one way to index the gun, and I can tell if I’m off my grip by a millimeter. Ergo type grips feel ok in a wider range of positions.

[Totem Polar]

A G42 with the capacity of a G43x.

They could call it the G42x.

:)

[GearFondler]

A G42 with the capacity of a G43x.

They could call it the G42x.

:)Do that without lengthening the grip and I'm in. But that means Glock would have to go to a metal-only mag so it will be up to Shield to do it. [emoji849]

[Bergeron]

Re-design the 43 frame to have the same width as the 43x and 48. Toss the 42 into that mix as well, while we're at it.

[Sig_Fiend]

Hell, considering the modularity of the P30 grip, I'd almost bet that someone (HK??) could design grip modules that would, once installed, give a USP squared-off grip.

A thing that I do not understand is how the squared-off grip guns are generally associated with higher performance shooting and gunhandling, yet it's a coin toss on whether new designs will attempt to follow the performance or will instead try to get super-swoopy-curvy. Is it case of "feels good in the hand" driving sales and therefore designs?

Clusterfrack is right on the money. It's a consistency thing, at least for some of us.

To be clear, I think we're talking about a performance difference that's pretty subjective and of like a .0001% difference for some people. In the grand scheme of things, it probably does not matter. For myself, it's a matter of "the grass is greener" and wishing that few degrees of lateral movement under recoil could be eliminated more easily, or grip could be established just a little more consistently but, it's just not that big of a deal.

[Crow Hunter]

I was watching Forged in Fire yesterday and I noted that one of the expert judges made mention of the rounded grip of the entry from one of the contestants and pointed out that it was much more likely to turn or twist in the hand in use than a more square grip which prevented the blade from twisting during striking. I assume that recoil from firing a gun and reaction from striking with a blade share some characteristics.

[Shoresy]

P2000 with the ability to be run SAO (i.e. hammer back, safety on). If there's a way to convert one, please enlighten me. Prior searches for such a conversion have universally resulted in a dead end.

Alternatively, a 9mm HK45C (HK9C?)

[DMF13]

I want a modern version of the P7M13. In fullsize, compact, and subcompact, that can all use the fullsize mags. It should have a polymer frame, rail, but the squeeze cocking system of the original.

[Bergeron]

Squeeze-cocking is cool, but is there a price point that makes a difference?

I shot a buddies P7PSP, and I was almost a little hurt that the trigger was no better, and the recoil no softer, than any of the other more vanilla 9mm pistols that I had experienced.

[TheNewbie]

I’ll jump on the Glocks with a well done thumb safety. Maybe the safety from the 92x Performance. It was pretty nice.


P250 combined with P-07.



Ruger SP101 with Taurus 856 capacity.

[LOKNLOD]

Things that would make me go all Fry "take my money":

If you could make a P30, with a G19/P2000 length grip, took G19 mags but still with the paddle release, had a deep optics cut so you didn't need a front sight that looks like an SSBM conning tower, and had a trigger from like a Langdon-tuned 92... man that would be a sweet gun.

[RevolverRob]

Easy the Heckler & Kahr:

A USP frame, standard rail on the dust cover, paddle release in both full size and compact and a single stack or 1.5 stack sub-compact, with a Kahr-like DAO striker trigger and optics ready.

[DMF13]

Squeeze-cocking is cool, but is there a price point that makes a difference?

I shot a buddies P7PSP, and I was almost a little hurt that the trigger was no better, and the recoil no softer, than any of the other more vanilla 9mm pistols that I had experienced.
The advantage of the squeeze cocker is the increased safety, along with the trigger pull that is now common with striker fired pistols. No one needed to add a "striker control device" to a P7, as the squeeze cocking dis that job very well.

Unfortunately the very high price, along with some quirks of the original, probably prevented it from gaining wider acceptance for both government contracts, and general use, in the US. I myself never thought much of the design until I got a chance to actually shoot one. Seeing the benefits of a very safe design, with the consistent lighter trigger pull we've all become accustomed to, sold me on the design.

I would hope advances in pistol design. In the last 40 years, more importantly, advances in modern manufacturing in that time, would allow for a high quality, modern squeeze cock pistol to be built at a competitive price.

[David S.]

If the SIGPro's had a slide catch lever that was further forward in the position of a Glock or CZ, I'd still be shooting them. A 5" tall, slightly thinner (Glock 48 size) option would be icing on the cake

I'm very interested in the CZ DWX concept as an interesting mix and match option.

[ccmdfd]

The advantage of the squeeze cocker is the increased safety, along with the trigger pull that is now common with striker fired pistols. No one needed to add a "striker control device" to a P7, as the squeeze cocking dis that job very well.

Unfortunately the very high price, along with some quirks of the original, probably prevented it from gaining wider acceptance for both government contracts, and general use, in the US. I myself never thought much of the design until I got a chance to actually shoot one. Seeing the benefits of a very safe design, with the consistent lighter trigger pull we've all become accustomed to, sold me on the design.

I would hope advances in pistol design. In the last 40 years, more importantly, advances in modern manufacturing in that time, would allow for a high quality, modern squeeze cock pistol to be built at a competitive price.

Yeah shooting one certainly made a believer out of me.

I still feel that in terms of accuracy, the P7 (M8 and PSP for me, M13 too chunky)beats any other duty or SD style pistol. Also very safe and easy manual of arms.

Now if they could just design a better heat dissipation system, or get rid of the gas system....

[CSW]

Or if Smith re-introduced the original model 39, for us single stack double action guys.

[ccmdfd]

Or if Smith re-introduced the original model 39, for us single stack double action guys.

Along with an ASP version!

[Rex G]

Or if Smith re-introduced the original model 39, for us single stack double action guys.

I have been quietly accumulating the compact version of the Model 39, the last couple of years. First, a 3913 TSW w/rail, then a 908, and just recently a VERY-well-preserved 3914 LS. If I happen upon a larger variant, in well-kept condition, I may well add it, too.

I have fond memories of the 3913 and 3953 I had, in the early-/mid-Nineties.

Too bad JMCK has discontinued making AIWB rigs for these. I found a right-hand JMCK AIWB, pre-owned on the evil-bay, but I am only shooting compact nines lefty, these days. My railed 3913 TSW is exactly why I bought a Phlster Floodlight, and an LB Enigma, but there is nothing slender about that combo.

[Rex G]

Or if Smith re-introduced the original model 39, for us single stack double action guys.

I would camp out, in a line, in the rain, for a pistol built on a square-butt-grip 39-series frame, and a compact-length slide. (My aging, gimpy right hand needs a full-height, not-too-rounded grip, for “orthopedic” reasons.)

[Patrick Taylor]

CZ DWX concept

Provided the DWX actually works if it ever comes to market. If the front lower area had the frame and slide as a 1911 I would pull out the cash for one much quicker. Carry gun does not need a full length dust cover.

[Joe in PNG]

A CZ P07/9 SAO with a 1911 style trigger.

[OlongJohnson]

Or if Smith re-introduced the original model 39, for us single stack double action guys.

I've sold four 3953s in the past several months. I get the desire for single stacks, but a 10+ lb trigger on a skinny compact is a bit much. I had a 6946, an M11-A1, and a USP Compact. Put them all on the bench, got out the calipers, and made a table of measurements. Decided the USPc was the one to move forward with unless I got to a point where it wasn't working. The 3953 is just a 6946 with a slightly skinnier grip and 40% less capacity. Also, if you ever detail strip a 3rd-gen, you'll understand why they couldn't stay in production. Very expensive to machine, very intricate with lots of little pieces. It has even more complexity than an H&K and is a great deal less durable without the modularity, adaptability and tuneability that is the reward for an H&K's complexity. A classic Sig humbles them both with its elegant simplicity and excellence when unkittened, but it is what it is and that's that, unless you like DAK.

A G48 that was as reliable as a G19, or a P365 XL that wasn't a fully-cocked SA would be compelling.


Hell, considering the modularity of the P30 grip, I'd almost bet that someone (HK??) could design grip modules that would, once installed, give a USP squared-off grip.

A thing that I do not understand is how the squared-off grip guns are generally associated with higher performance shooting and gunhandling, yet it's a coin toss on whether new designs will attempt to follow the performance or will instead try to get super-swoopy-curvy. Is it case of "feels good in the hand" driving sales and therefore designs?


Clusterfrack is right on the money. It's a consistency thing, at least for some of us.

To be clear, I think we're talking about a performance difference that's pretty subjective and of like a .0001% difference for some people. In the grand scheme of things, it probably does not matter. For myself, it's a matter of "the grass is greener" and wishing that few degrees of lateral movement under recoil could be eliminated more easily, or grip could be established just a little more consistently but, it's just not that big of a deal.

Lots of people have measured objective differences in performance between USPs and pick-your-version spiderman grip HKs. Especially as you go to a larger backstrap on the P30/VP9, it doesn't actually increase the reach to the trigger, it just puts a bigger and bigger hump in the middle of the backstrap. To me, this seems backward. You want to maximize contact firmness at the top and bottom of the grip; the middle does little to control the rotation of muzzle rise. The backstrap hump reduces pressure at the top and bottom, putting a nice round pivot in the middle. I believe this is why many have reported struggling with elevation control in rapid fire.

I really wish all the German manufacturers would forget Nills Griffe. I believe he's the source of that design thinking; whether through actual consultation or just imitation.


P2000 with the ability to be run SAO (i.e. hammer back, safety on). If there's a way to convert one, please enlighten me. Prior searches for such a conversion have universally resulted in a dead end.

Not P2000, but you can always put a V9 plate in a USPc.

[Sig_Fiend]

Lots of people have measured objective differences in performance between USPs and pick-your-version spiderman grip HKs. Especially as you go to a larger backstrap on the P30/VP9, it doesn't actually increase the reach to the trigger, it just puts a bigger and bigger hump in the middle of the backstrap. To me, this seems backward. You want to maximize contact firmness at the top and bottom of the grip; the middle does little to control the rotation of muzzle rise. The backstrap hump reduces pressure at the top and bottom, putting a nice round pivot in the middle. I believe this is why many have reported struggling with elevation control in rapid fire.

I really wish all the German manufacturers would forget Nills Griffe. I believe he's the source of that design thinking; whether through actual consultation or just imitation.

I get what you mean and know there's an objective difference. I just didn't want to oversell too much. ;)

EXACTLY. IMO, the P2000 style backstraps had the right strategy in that the XL backstrap has the increased thickness in the grip arch area. I much prefer that consistent angle of the backstrap and consistent grip pressure as opposed to the P30 style of basically having a large tumor in the middle of the palm as you go larger. If I can find someone willing to prototype it and 3D print it, I'll gladly pay a healthy sum. I reached out to a few small businesses in the recent past, but no one wants to touch that with a 10ft pole. ;)