Self defense for a women's office?

[Gumbo]

I have a thought exercise for us that I hope will prove beneficial for my wife and her business partners. My wife is a part owner in a counseling group practice. This consists of 1-4 female counselors working out of basically a strip mall. My wife has her own office, but it is also shared by others after hours or on weekends. This can equate to her (or other young females) being alone with their client (think larger male) in a room and sometimes being the only two people in the office. For the first time in a long time, my wife has become concerned about her safety. My wife is currently 32 weeks pregnant, and not yet comfortable with guns. I have tried to get her to train with me, but before recently she didn't feel much of a need to. Now that she is big and pregnant, live firearms training is out the window. She is not opposed to training to the point of comfort but this won't be possible for some time.

I come to ask those with more experience on ways to help keep her and the other ladies in her business safe until she feels ready to carry a gun full time. In the near term she's mentioned a taser or pepper spray, but I warned her about the use of pepper spray in an enclosed office (think medium size Dr. office). I also am concerned with the effectiveness of a taser in the same setting. The part that makes this difficult is that it's a shared office space, so I don't see a safe way to hide a gun where it would be accessible in the amount of time she might have if attacked. I initially thought about somehow modifying her chair, but I don't see how to keep it safe, but accessible (the same goes for pepper spray or even a taser).
With all of that said, what ideas can I present to her to help keep her safe and help her feel more comfortable in her office.

Any input will be appreciated and discussed with her.

[Moylan]

Congrats on the baby! My first thought is that at least some of her very legitimate concerns could be addressed by better scheduling. Why is there just one female counselor alone in the office with clients?

[peterb]

Wearable “panic buttons” to summon help?

At a former job we had them for working alone in the machine shop after hours. You could call for help if you couldn’t dial or get to a phone.

[octagon]

Physical security and a loud panic alarm that also alerts the police to go along with better scheduling Moylan already mentioned would be a bare minimum start. If she doesn't want or cannot use a firearm pepper spray and a real TASER, not stun gun would be the next best choices. Even if she is affected by pepper spray the attacker would be also and be less able to continue any assault even if he chose to instead of fleeing. Having a paring knife for food prep is not uncommon in office setting so would draw minimal attention but also could be accessed by an attacker. If she can find a place to place defensive tool out of sight like under her desk where her legs go on a magnetic/adhesive/velcro or similar mount or the same for under her chair or on the back side of the back of it might work. Lastly a medium size dry chemical fire extinguisher could be used both the block/blind attacker vision, obstruct their breathing fully and as bludgeon type tool once fully used up. These can be hung on a hook near the desk or placed on the floor near her feet for access. Pepper spray in a pocket and then access it if things start to feel off could also work. A firearm is the best equalizer for someone who is smaller less physically capable but it may not be possible. I would seriously make sure it isn't before the other choices minus the security and fire extinguisher.

[Gumbo]

Congrats on the baby! My first thought is that at least some of her very legitimate concerns could be addressed by better scheduling. Why is there just one female counselor alone in the office with clients?

This is mostly a side effect of starting a new business. She is working to bring on additional staff, but it takes time to choose the right people and fill out schedules. In addition, she's mostly there during normal business hours with other counselors (1-2 currently), but her staff will be using offices after hours and on the weekends for those who want to work part time or allow new clinicians to build their own individual case loads. Even the counselors that are there "full time" aren't always there because they set their own schedules and is dependent on client availability. So, some days the building might be packed, and the next day she might end up alone for 1/2 of the day.

The only way for her business to make money is to have someone seeing clients, the easiest way to bring in more money is to allow staff to work evenings or on the weekends. I'm hopeful that all of this will improve by the time she returns from maternity leave, but just in case it doesn't, I want to have a plan or at least some options moving forward.

[Totem Polar]

Congrats on the baby! My first thought is that at least some of her very legitimate concerns could be addressed by better scheduling. Why is there just one female counselor alone in the office with clients?

This. Change the scenario to reduce risk. 100% of the encounters avoided, and all that.

Beyond that, and more generalized, I think that Craig Douglas/Southnarc has a grip on the minimalist approach with his eye jab and knife jab curriculum. JMO

[DDTSGM]

For the present, would it bust the bank to hire a big old high school student to watch the office while the clinicians work?

I would imagine that the clinicians don't want the barrier of a desk between them and the client, so a lot of the desk concealment/availability options are of the table so to speak.

I would suggest looking at the counseling set-up in terms of furniture and seating in order to determine accessible concealment locations for tasers, oc's, firearms, etc.

I also imagine it might be difficult to turn the clinicians from helpers to the mindset that they may have to severely injure/kill a client to protect themselves. They need a mindset that will enable them to react quickly enough and hard enough to actually protect themselves.

I showed my daughters where to 'poke' with pencils and pens and keys (a good solid old style bic pen, or a substantial retractable). A 3-D target is good for this, as is a cardboard target with a face pasted on it that has a card board box attached to the back with a tee-shirt over it all. One daughter was meh, but the other practiced quite a bit.

A mini fire-extinguisher could also be a considered in lieu of OC. If she does decide to use OC, she needs to get training, and burn up a couple of inerts practicing.

JM $.02

[Duelist]

Those are issues a lot of clinicians face. In fact, physical altercations with prior clients is why I didn’t go for a clinical cert when I got my psych degree.

Friends of mine carry small, very concealable guns in clinics. Dry fire familiarity and deep on-body concealment of very concealable guns would likely work in the short term.

[1Rangemaster]

Interesting and tough exercise. The business is trying to make money, so the schedule adjustment may not be an option presently. If it is in the future, do it.
For the present, a panic button arrangement with a loud siren or horn outside with a cell link to LE. Pretty sure commercial system would fill the bill, but it’s an expense.
It comes down to individuals taking some responsibility for themselves. My experience with the helping/healing folks is that most will hesitate to take drastic action, e.g., carry/present/shoot a firearm. So, the OC and fire extinguisher are good, but the response should be practiced.
One other alternative is a blade on the person, or a blade/ice pick taped under a desk, chair, etc. Most people will be even more reluctant to slash or perforate.
Last thought for the moment is if she or the other counselors have a bad feeling about a session, you could be around for that particular time.
Best of luck with it and your growing family.

[JTMcC]

She (or anybody for that matter) can do a LOT of familiarization sitting in a recliner with her feet up.
Holster, gun, mags or speedloaders and snap caps.
You can try, and whittle down suitable holsters that way since her work is in a sitting position.

Draw, dry fire, reloads, malf clearing, all those things can become second nature before ever setting foot on a range.

No fear of a ND, and solid gun handling confidence when transitioning to live ammo.

Are the gel type pepper sprays less aerosol like in a small room? I have no idea.

[Clusterfrack]

One-on-one private closed door meetings are risky for many reasons, including assault and false accusations of inappropriate conduct. I do not do them, but if I was forced to meet in private, I would install a system like SimpliSafe that can record video and call for help at the push of a button. Unfortunately, folks attending private counseling sessions likely won’t want to have a camera pointing at them.

In my experience, threatening office encounters are virtually certain to happen on a regular basis. It’s not if, but when. I can’t carry at work, but have a Mk. 4 can of Fox taped under my desk. I always have a folding knife. But… I am a lifelong student of the self-defense arts. If this was my wife or daughters, I would recommend no meetings in private without backup.

[Wise_A]

*Audible alarms: may dissuade an attacker. In my experience, I have never received a call for an audible alarm going off for less than 10-15 minutes, even from the most Karenest of Karens.
*Check on your local police's dispatch policy when it comes to alarm dispatches.
*Institute the buddy system. The person taking the interview calls in and reports they're in a meeting with a client, giving the client name or a number. The buddy recalls every 15 or 20 minutes. If there's no answer, the buddy 911s.
*Call your local police, explain the situation, and ask what the policy for dispatching 911 open lines is. They may not want to tell you, that's fine, they're just following policy. Some jurisdictions respond to every one (eventually). Know what it takes to get an immediate dispatch.
*Cameras. Lots of cameras. Visible cameras and a sign. On that note, web-enabled cameras can be monitored remotely for not a lot of money.

[Totem Polar]

Honestly, given the confidentiality requirements of counseling, the only real mitigating strategy is to make sure that there are always two vetted employees in the greater area of the collective office space at any time. This will mean herding cats at first, to make sure that client scheduling after “business hours” and scheduling of make-up sessions is still coordinated and codified. Sort of a cash flow vs risk calculus; no way around it.

I work largely one-on-one with clients, and at times am the only authorized person in an entire building. Any risk mitigation is largely due to #1, the pre-screened nature of my work and #2, after decades of being around self-defense subcultures, I’ve probably arrived at a place where I am marginally more dangerous to the average client than the average client is to me. Suffice to say, not everyone gets their jolies from martial studies like I do, so #2 is not a viable strategy in a larger sense.

With regard to #1, a lot can be gleaned in initial intake paperwork, and initial sessions. While not perfect, I have no doubt that an emerging sense of clients’ issues will filter some into the likely “safe for after hours” category, and others into the “schedule only during peak traffic times.” Each therapist will have to proceed discreetly according to their own perceptions, experience, and comfort level.

As CF notes, it’s a numbers game. See 1,000 clients; statistically be prepared for 1-2 that are *seriously* whack at some point over the period of time required to hit that number. Over the 2 decades that I’ve been at my current work, I’ve had 2 clients that caused *major* institutional concern to the point of newspaper headlines, and another 2 who caused considerable internal angst amongst colleages. Out of +/- 1500-ish total, maybe? (I’ve not bothered to keep track).

But I ramble. As I am given to do. Surely, there has to have been some discussion of this topic in various professional organizations or journals at some point. Might be worth a look—not that professional societies and organizations will be more informed than the P-F hive mind on security topics, but one never knows.

[Clusterfrack]

Over the 2 decades that I’ve been at my current work, I’ve had 2 clients that caused *major* institutional concern to the point of newspaper headlines, and another 2 who caused considerable internal angst amongst colleages.

My stats are similar. 1 in the first category, maybe 10 in the second. A few inappropriate solicitations as well, and those were in some ways the scariest.

[Totem Polar]

A few inappropriate solicitations as well, and those were in some ways the scariest.

When we get that beer later this summer, I will tell you deets on how I got hired in the first place, years ago. It involved the sudden departure of two of my predecessors. I taught with my door open for a decade. Which was noisy, but fuck everyone else when it comes to PERSEC.
;)

Also, I’m at about a half-dozen tick marks with regard to colleagues who either got honey trapped, or honey trapped themselves out of a job. Some of which was visually and politically spectacular.
:D

[Clusterfrack]

@totempolar, let’s do it. I’ve got some good ones too. Including a thrown shoe.

[CraigS]

Is you wife's and the other individual offices made from windowed walls? Probably not the correct term but I am thinking of a solid wall up to maybe chair rail height w/ glass to near the ceiling. And then a rule that there are always 2 people working. If the walls can be seen through, at least the other person can make a call. I know that might be somewhat counter productive but your wife's safety is more important than any of her 'customers' are. Another thought, have all the women stay for an extra hour or so, buy pizza and one beer each and talk about what can be done. Hopefully you can prime her to bring up the fact that 911 will get a cop there 15 minutes too late so their safety is on them. I really like octogon's idea of a dry chemical fire extinguisher. I have been hit w/ the spray from one accidently and can tell you it stopped all activity so I could run out of the cloud and breath again. The ones that are maybe 15 inches tall are light enough to be used easily but heavy enough that hitting someone w/ one will definitely help and maybe $30 each so one in every office. Oh, and buy an extra so every employee can make a 3 second blast w/ it. I was surprised by a story of a kitchen fire that did way more damage than it should have because the wife had no idea how to use the extinguisher that was in fact there. So replace the pin for each person's trial effort. My wife has been carrying for about 10 years including to work. Except the last 1.5 yrs on a college campus which I loved until we realized she probably shouldn't carry there so the pistol stayed in the car.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

When I was working, I had meetings with students. Since some of them, obviously, were young women - in more recent days, I would never leave the door closed. Nor would I do it with males, either.

If they wanted such to discuss personal problems, I would defer and tell them to seek aid at the counseling center. It was not unknown for some suggestions from the young not to be appropriate nowadays and of course, perhaps wrong and a terrible personal risk if one was foolish enough to engage. As I aged, they diminished but older fat foggies still got quid pro quo offers at times.

If there was a suggestion of abuse, we were mandated to report immediately. I also told faculty, even if they had clinical skills, not to engage a student in such conversations but to refer.

As far as threats, we had them. The school was adamantly anti-firearms. I always had a Delica and Sabre OC on me. However, if it ever came to use them - unless it was an obvious crazed attack, that would be the end of my career. Using a Delica to effect an escape from someone pounding on me (as in class) - well, I might escape but I'm gone.

Now might that differ for a female attacked by a male - perhaps.

We did have a serious threat. At a disciplinary hearing, we had the law but he never showed and his parents had hustled him away never to be seen. If I ever saw him again, fleeing and screaming was the plan.

The Chronicle of Higher Ed had a story about a faculty member under threat and the school was in 'so what' mode'. He decided to study up on the shotgun for at home. I had a threat of home visit from a student. I told the campus police, who of course, wouldn't patrol my house. The local police said, well if you see him call us. I had asked for perhaps a drive by on the street that night or two. Yeah, I had my skill set and equipment but the calls were to set the context if the worst happened.

Schools are more afraid of the lawsuit from a student or client than paying your family off, if you get killed or injured. The financial risks are much greater from the student suing. Went to a seminar on such after some school rampages. This was a higher ed pro seminar, not one of our gun group meetings.

[Gumbo]

For the present, would it bust the bank to hire a big old high school student to watch the office while the clinicians work?

I would imagine that the clinicians don't want the barrier of a desk between them and the client, so a lot of the desk concealment/availability options are of the table so to speak.

I would suggest looking at the counseling set-up in terms of furniture and seating in order to determine accessible concealment locations for tasers, oc's, firearms, etc.

I also imagine it might be difficult to turn the clinicians from helpers to the mindset that they may have to severely injure/kill a client to protect themselves. They need a mindset that will enable them to react quickly enough and hard enough to actually protect themselves.

I showed my daughters where to 'poke' with pencils and pens and keys (a good solid old style bic pen, or a substantial retractable). A 3-D target is good for this, as is a cardboard target with a face pasted on it that has a card board box attached to the back with a tee-shirt over it all. One daughter was meh, but the other practiced quite a bit.

A mini fire-extinguisher could also be a considered in lieu of OC. If she does decide to use OC, she needs to get training, and burn up a couple of inerts practicing.

JM $.02

None of the offices have desks between the client and the counselor, My wife has a desk on the opposite side of the room. Most offices are set up so its a chair (sometimes 2) next to each other opposite of a couch where clients sit. There is nothing in between the couch and chairs with about 6 feet separating them. Most of the counselors have a set chair that they spend 30+ hours in per week, so that's really the only place to stage any self defense items. Perhaps something pointy...

It sounds like OC shouldn't be ruled out, with perhaps a gel medium. I have never thought about a fire extinguisher, and it has the added benefit of looking benign to anyone who might notice it.

[Clusterfrack]

None of the offices have desks between the client and the counselor, My wife has a desk on the opposite side of the room. Most offices are set up so its a chair (sometimes 2) next to each other opposite of a couch where clients sit. There is nothing in between the couch and chairs with about 6 feet separating them.

That's a terrible situation from a defense standpoint. 6' of open space leaves little time to react and maneuver. Add pregnancy to the equation, and it seems like she's entirely at the mercy of the clients.

Why is it out of the question to have a barrier like a desk between the client and counselor? And isolated 1-on-1 meetings? I'm having a hard time understanding the logic here. It's stressing me out just thinking about it.

[Casual Friday]

For the present, would it bust the bank to hire a big old high school student to watch the office while the clinicians work?

That sounds like a terrible idea for a lot of reasons. Aside from the liability concerns, a high school student isn't trained for that sort of thing, and putting them in that kind of situation would be irresponsible. What kind of parent is gonna allow their high school student to take on a job like that in the first place?

[Caballoflaco]

None of the offices have desks between the client and the counselor, My wife has a desk on the opposite side of the room. Most offices are set up so its a chair (sometimes 2) next to each other opposite of a couch where clients sit. There is nothing in between the couch and chairs with about 6 feet separating them. Most of the counselors have a set chair that they spend 30+ hours in per week, so that's really the only place to stage any self defense items. Perhaps something pointy...

It sounds like OC shouldn't be ruled out, with perhaps a gel medium. I have never thought about a fire extinguisher, and it has the added benefit of looking benign to anyone who might notice it.

That set up makes me thin a fire extinguisher in the office is a bad idea then. Any of those folks, especially if they have been to prison will be very familiar with environmental weapons and will absolutely see a fire extinguisher as a possible weapon. Hell, I’ve never been arrested or in trouble with the law and one of the first things I do when I’m bored sitting somewhere is to look around the room for expedient weapons. Also, a female counselor probably isn’t going to win a race to the fire extinguisher and they’re heavy/awkward enough that it’s going to be hard for them to maintain control of it in a fight with a larger dude. I would keep extinguishers where they need to be per code and maybe have one hidden behind the front desk if ther is one, but not in the office in the open.

One other thing you could do is a quick walk through and make sure they don’t have big metal lamps or anything that makes you say “I could easily bludgeon, stab etc. someone with that” . Any lighting should be mounted to a wall or in the ceiling. Stone sculptures are right out as well. If they want plants you can get decent enough looking plastic pots for that too. Nothing sharp enough to enter a human body or hard enough to break a skull should be loose and available on the rooms.

[octagon]

That set up makes me thin a fire extinguisher in the office is a bad idea then. Any of those folks, especially if they have been to prison will be very familiar with environmental weapons and will absolutely see a fire extinguisher as a possible weapon. Hell, I’ve never been arrested or in trouble with the law and one of the first things I do when I’m bored sitting somewhere is to look around the room for expedient weapons. Also, a female counselor probably isn’t going to win a race to the fire extinguisher and they’re heavy/awkward enough that it’s going to be hard for them to maintain control of it in a fight with a larger dude. I would keep extinguishers where they need to be per code and maybe have one hidden behind the front desk if ther is one, but not in the office in the open.

One other thing you could do is a quick walk through and make sure they don’t have big metal lamps or anything that makes you say “I could easily bludgeon, stab etc. someone with that” . Any lighting should be mounted to a wall or in the ceiling. Stone sculptures are right out as well. If they want plants you can get decent enough looking plastic pots for that too. Nothing sharp enough to enter a human body or hard enough to break a skull should be loose and available on the rooms.

I would agree with the premise if there was security and clients were checked for weapons. I assume that is not the case in this incident so if it was my wife or loved one I would prefer her to have some sort of weapon to help defend herself. Nothing stops the client from bringing their own weapon (even a pocket knife). In general a woman may already be at a disadvantage size and strength wise. Add in possible weapon brought by a client and limiting factor such as pregnancy and having some sort of equalizing tool is important. Having it not visible and on person or much closer to the counselor than client even more so.

[DDTSGM]

That sounds like a terrible idea for a lot of reasons. Aside from the liability concerns, a high school student isn't trained for that sort of thing, and putting them in that kind of situation would be irresponsible. What kind of parent is gonna allow their high school student to take on a job like that in the first place?

I was thinking someone to be there to give the alarm in case of fire or disorder. High schooler's seemed most likely to be willing/able to work a couple hours on short notice.

I saw much difference in risk probability compared to high schooler's working in convenience stores, delivering pizza, etc.

How about I rephrase - hire someone at minimum wage to be there on the occasions when someone is seeing a client after hours.

Better?

[Casual Friday]

I was thinking someone to be there to give the alarm in case of fire or disorder. High schooler's seemed most likely to be willing/able to work a couple hours on short notice.

I saw much difference in risk probability compared to high schooler's working in convenience stores, delivering pizza, etc.

How about I rephrase - hire someone at minimum wage to be there on the occasions when someone is seeing a client after hours.

Better?

I wouldn't want to rely on a minimum wage person for that sort of thing but to each their own.

[Caballoflaco]

I would agree with the premise if there was security and clients were checked for weapons. I assume that is not the case in this incident so if it was my wife or loved one I would prefer her to have some sort of weapon to help defend herself. Nothing stops the client from bringing their own weapon (even a pocket knife). In general a woman may already be at a disadvantage size and strength wise. Add in possible weapon brought by a client and limiting factor such as pregnancy and having some sort of equalizing tool is important. Having it not visible and on person or much closer to the counselor than client even more so.

The not visible part is what I was really getting at. Not that the counselors shouldn’t have staged or concealed tools.If they don’t want a desk between them and the client then maybe a small nightstand style table next to counselors chair would provide a good hiding place. Another obstacle that might seem less “distant” or formal than having a desk between the counselor and client could be a coffee table (if there’s room) I think we’ve all seen somebody jack themselves up trying to cross a room and getting caught in the shin etc by a coffee table that’s just low enough to be out of the line of sight.

The last thing that I haven’t seen mentioned yet in this thread is an auto-locking or controlled access front door that is always locked to prevent injury, but unlocked/escapeable from the inside to prevent people from entering. People are going to people and accidentally leave the door unlocked, this would prevent a client from dropping in for an unscheduled appointment while one of the counselors is in a session, or just not paying attention. Also helpful to keep them from having to deal with randos who have no business there.

[Gumbo]

The not visible part is what I was really getting at. Not that the counselors shouldn’t have staged or concealed tools.If they don’t want a desk between them and the client then maybe a small nightstand style table next to counselors chair would provide a good hiding place. Another obstacle that might seem less “distant” or formal than having a desk between the counselor and client could be a coffee table (if there’s room) I think we’ve all seen somebody jack themselves up trying to cross a room and getting caught in the shin etc by a coffee table that’s just low enough to be out of the line of sight.

The last thing that I haven’t seen mentioned yet in this thread is an auto-locking or controlled access front door that is always locked to prevent injury, but unlocked/escapeable from the inside to prevent people from entering. People are going to people and accidentally leave the door unlocked, this would prevent a client from dropping in for an unscheduled appointment while one of the counselors is in a session, or just not paying attention. Also helpful to keep them from having to deal with randos who have no business there.

This is a good idea, and was installed at her previous location. The door from the waiting room had an automatic lock with a key pad on it and only the counselors knew the code. I'll definitely put this on my to-do list.

My wife had a small coffee type table at her last office, but after a blind client took himself down by hitting it more than once, she moved away from the idea.

I'm thinking a small nightstand style table next to her chair might offer a decent compromise to hide a decent sized can of OC or something sharp and pointy...

[Clusterfrack]

My wife had a small coffee type table at her last office, but after a blind client took himself down by hitting it more than once, she moved away from the idea.

I'm thinking a small nightstand style table next to her chair might offer a decent compromise to hide a decent sized can of OC or something sharp and pointy...

Some years ago I had a problem with female students and colleagues getting too close in my office. For some reason, female office visitors felt comfortable sitting on my desk surround right next to my chair (desk faces away from the door). Males never did this. In most (but not all) cases I think it was innocent. I decided a physical barrier was needed to enforce a safe and professional amount of space. That had the added advantage of giving me a place to tape a Mk. 4 OC fogger.

[JohnO]

I think I should start thinking about this issue. My daughter is completing her Masters degree in clinical psychology/counseling right now. She is completing her course work and practicum over this and the next two semesters graduating in May 2022. Currently she is counseling heroin addicts at a facility near her school in Ohio. I have no idea what the security is like. She is 5' 2" and maybe 100 Lbs. soaking wet.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I forget the exact number and source but recall significant percents of assault. A fellow student when I was in school lost his front teeth to client. He was doing his internship at a hospital and the client jumped out of the first floor window. Instead of just calling for help, the student climbed out the window after the client. The client was waiting for him and belted him the face a few times before help arrived. That's a lesson - take care of yourself.

Here's some references from the helping professionals lit.


https://www.apaservices.org/practice/good-practice/client-encounters.pdf
https://www.apa.org/monitor/2008/04/client-violence

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6698260/
Experiencing and Witnessing Patient Violence - an Occupational Risk for Outpatient Therapists?

Pretty good recent 2019 article.

Social workers: https://naswcanews.org/when-a-client-threatens-the-therapist-guidelines-for-mitigating-risk/

Here's a case study for you. Dr. Silverman violated the rules. That is a decision for the individual. IIRC, he wasn't punished.
https://www.npr.org/2014/07/26/335482547/suspect-in-philadelphia-hospital-shooting-had-history-of-gun-arrests

[JHC]

I have a thought exercise for us that I hope will prove beneficial for my wife and her business partners. My wife is a part owner in a counseling group practice. This consists of 1-4 female counselors working out of basically a strip mall. My wife has her own office, but it is also shared by others after hours or on weekends. This can equate to her (or other young females) being alone with their client (think larger male) in a room and sometimes being the only two people in the office. For the first time in a long time, my wife has become concerned about her safety. My wife is currently 32 weeks pregnant, and not yet comfortable with guns. I have tried to get her to train with me, but before recently she didn't feel much of a need to. Now that she is big and pregnant, live firearms training is out the window. She is not opposed to training to the point of comfort but this won't be possible for some time.

I come to ask those with more experience on ways to help keep her and the other ladies in her business safe until she feels ready to carry a gun full time. In the near term she's mentioned a taser or pepper spray, but I warned her about the use of pepper spray in an enclosed office (think medium size Dr. office). I also am concerned with the effectiveness of a taser in the same setting. The part that makes this difficult is that it's a shared office space, so I don't see a safe way to hide a gun where it would be accessible in the amount of time she might have if attacked. I initially thought about somehow modifying her chair, but I don't see how to keep it safe, but accessible (the same goes for pepper spray or even a taser).
With all of that said, what ideas can I present to her to help keep her safe and help her feel more comfortable in her office.

Any input will be appreciated and discussed with her.

YMMV

Outside of the realm of previous mentioned physical security equipment/technology layers, at the last defense personal level, I'd probably work up for a female in my family in this scenario, a system of OC spray and a small fixed blade knife with a great concealment and access rig. Now the females in my family all possess "the spirit of the bayonet" when it comes to self defense so there is that to consider.

The old dictum that knives "aren't much use without the training and reflexes of a Green Beret" . . . I called BS on that the first time I read that in the '70's or '80's.

YMMV and I could be FOS. But I don't think so.

[Wise_A]

I forget the exact number and source but recall significant percents of assault. A fellow student when I was in school lost his front teeth to client. He was doing his internship at a hospital and the client jumped out of the first floor window. Instead of just calling for help, the student climbed out the window after the client. The client was waiting for him and belted him the face a few times before help arrived. That's a lesson - take care of yourself.

That sort of thing seems endemic to the industry. I took a call from a woman concerned about her neighbor, as he had a pretty significant mental health history, and he was walking up and down their very deserted road carrying an axe at 2330. She then proceeded to drive up to him, get out of her car, and talk to him (obviously against my instructions). When she finished, she admonished me for "interfering" and stated that he was "no threat".

[JCN]

Concerns of my wife getting disarmed and having a firearm used against her led me to this solution a number of years ago.


Http://www.YouTube.com/watch?v=1aOSni_WZpo

[DDTSGM]

The magna trigger always has had a couple of disadvantages in my opinion -

1) You have to wear a ring.

2) The ring has to be on the correct hand in order to use the revolver - so if your wife is overpowered, the bad guy grabs the revolver, she is able to partially wrest away from the assailant and gain control of the revolver with her weak hand, no joy. Granted, that can be accomplished by purchasing a second ring to wear on the weak hand.

3) Other family/tribe members wouldn't be able to use the revolver. Granted you and your wife could clink magna rings and give each other a chaste goodnight kiss ala surburban 60's before going to sleep, but you get my drift.

4) I think if you have a magna trigger you have to say stuff like 'I'm now drawing my Magna-Trrigger by Joe Davis equipped revolver to engage the target' every time you touch the pistol.

I can see in a scenario such as an office revolver or nightstand revolver, the Magna-Trigger has merit. Unfortunately, for revolvers, S&W generally, although I believe some older Rugers could be re-worked.

[Clusterfrack]

Concerns of my wife getting disarmed and having a firearm used against her...

I've heard this concern come up often--especially from females. The easy answer is for them to use OC spray instead. I've never seen that magnetic trigger disconnect, but it does seem like a viable answer as well. However... if there's a big disparity in size and strength, the BG can likely kill her without using her own gun. I think the best answer to gun retention concerns is a good class that covers gun grappling and similar self-defense topics.

[octagon]

Along the same lines for knives I would use a push dagger. More difficult to be disarmed and easier to train/use for non dedicated user.

[Totem Polar]

I’ve followed this thread closely, and I still haven’t seen a suggestion that resonates with me more than a clinch pick, the eye jab, and judicious scheduling to make sure that if there’s any signs of instability coming off a patient during intake and initial, they get scheduled during prime time hours going forward.

Beyond that, okie john posted a copy of some rules that contained this gem:

“If a problem has no solution, it may not be a problem, but a fact, not to be solved, but to be
coped with over time.” (Shimon Perez)

When working closely and confidentially with people for a living, it is going to be almost impossible to securely distance one’s self from said people.

JMO.

[Clusterfrack]

What about a medium or large dog? I psychologist I know who works with criminals has a GSD in his office.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

That would depend on the client and their reactions to dogs, I would think. Also, if the dog acts up, that's a liability. There's no easy equipment solution. The p-f answer is H2H defensive training, with hands, OC, knife and gun (if allowed). I think Dr. Silverman had the right idea even if was against the rules but I can't recommend someone risking their jobs.

[UNM1136]

Like the dog idea. A well trained beast is a joy, but the initial and sustainment training can be daunting. With the trend to theapy dogs, and emotional support peacocks, I doubt anyone will bat an eye. And a trained dog is necessary, if protection is a goal. 95%+ of the dogs out there will not protect owners, no matter what the imagined bond and trust levels are like. They likely won't have the nerves, or psychological makeup to do it, and they have likely been taught since they were puppies not to bite. A bunch of "protective" behavior is simply posturing, in an effort to avoid the fight. It is not fair to expect a dog to "rely on its instincts" to protect a person, paricularly at the risk of injury to itself. In nature canids do not frequently fight with other species. They fight among themselves for relative ranking, and those fights are rarely injurious, let alone fatal. Posturing and timely submission are the hallmarks of intraspecies fighting. They prey on smaller animals, and try to avoid pissing off larger ones. I would go so far as to argue that there is little instinctive behavior that makes a dog protect a person. Much of it is posturing, panic, and desperation. Some dogs will do it, just like some people will "rise to the occasion" of a self protection situation. A vast majority will default to their level of training. And zero training is zero training.

A close friend of mine, who has known my working dog since he was about 9 weeks old commented a few years ago that he believed my dog would protect me. At the time my dog had only bit bite pillows, tugs, and bite sleeves. Those were all visual cues that he had pemission to bite, and biting rules applied. I was under no such illusion. Even a decent sports dog will get confused the first time it is offered a leg sleeve, let alone being offered a body bite. They have to be taught the rules of biting and frequently they need a couple of bites giving them permission to take something other than an arm.

ETA: If deterrence, rather than protection is the goal, then most of what I posted is null and void. But if deterrence is the goal, do not expect the dog to protect.

Coyotesfan97

In the same vein, I get a kick out of people who tell me that a woman should not carry a knife (fixed blade) for defense, because it will be taken away from her and used against her. Training is preferred, but desperation and panic can work. During that askhole discussion I offer the woman an uncapped marker and challange dude to take it away from her without getting "cut" to hell and back.

Cecil Burch

pat

[Glenn E. Meyer]

While working in NPE for many years, I had a Sabre OC in my pocket, a Delica and a Surefire in my backpocket. I used the Delica to open packages and things to make it part of my known dress. The only two folks who knew its other purpose were a SEAL (yes a real one, who became a geology prof) and a kid from a South East Asian culture who commented on it. A fixed blade might be a little too much if visible for a school.

My mother-in-law (from Eastern Europe) commented - a man should carry a knife. The campus cops liked to demonstrated their gear. I was buddy with some of the chiefs but the last one wasn't friendly to the gun friendly faculty. So he comes to the demo in his vest but right front he had a Benchmade automatic knife at center chest. I commented on 'free knife in a fight'. Didn't like that.

Some of the women faculty asked me about OC options. We designed office and had our desk placement, I made sure mine didn't trap me in the end of the office, I had access to the door. Some folks asked and I explained that never let yourself be trapped by a possible nut to the door by the furniture. Some got it.

There was a debate about glass walls for offices. The rationale was that they made for open space and friendliness. Also, they kept you from screwing in your office (a 60's and 70's custom). However, you also might want just to take a nap.

There was a debate about run, hide, fight. Hard to hide with glass walls. I asked the SEAL prof if glass walls were protective. Ha - he said you could take them down easily with a few rounds.

Thus, we got motorized drop down screens. One lab bothered me, right against the glass walls, they had all the tanks of compressed who knows what. The building had lots and lots of decorative pillars and alcoves. Clearing that at a deliberate place would have been a horror. The major classrooms were full of choke points for evacuation.

[olstyn]

There was a debate about run, hide, fight. Hard to hide with glass walls. I asked the SEAL prof if glass walls were protective. Ha - he said you could take them down easily with a few rounds.

At my workplace, it wasn't even a debate. It was just a required "training" we had to sit through instructing us on run/hide/fight.

The idiocy of the picture in said presentation/training of 3 or 4 people trying to hold a door shut while a bad guy with an AR was poking the muzzle of said AR through the opening of the door was amazing. My reaction as someone who actually shoots guns was basically "the bad guy would just back off and put 10-15 rounds through the door, resulting in some number of dead/injured people and a door that was no longer difficult to open." There are also designated rooms in the building which supposedly have extra secure doors with wedges intended to allow you to keep them shut from the inside. Of course basically all of those rooms have glass walls, so again, bad guy just puts some rounds through the door and/or the glass and moves on with life.

Run/hide/fight as presented by corporations (and presumably also schools) is just insanely tone deaf, and even the relatively uninitiated see through it in mere moments when even one or two of the ridiculous things about it are pointed out to them.

[Coyotesfan97]

Like the dog idea. A well trained beast is a joy, but the initial and sustainment training can be daunting. With the trend to theapy dogs, and emotional support peacocks, I doubt anyone will bat an eye. And a trained dog is necessary, if protection is a goal. 95%+ of the dogs out there will not protect owners, no matter what the imagined bond and trust levels are like. They likely won't have the nerves, or psychological makeup to do it, and they have likely been taught since they were puppies not to bite. A bunch of "protective" behavior is simply posturing, in an effort to avoid the fight. It is not fair to expect a dog to "rely on its instincts" to protect a person, paricularly at the risk of injury to itself. In nature canids do not frequently fight with other species. They fight among themselves for relative ranking, and those fights are rarely injurious, let alone fatal. Posturing and timely submission are the hallmarks of intraspecies fighting. They prey on smaller animals, and try to avoid pissing off larger ones. I would go so far as to argue that there is little instinctive behavior that makes a dog protect a person. Much of it is posturing, panic, and desperation. Some dogs will do it, just like some people will "rise to the occasion" of a self protection situation. A vast majority will default to their level of training. And zero training is zero training.

A close friend of mine, who has known my working dog since he was about 9 weeks old commented a few years ago that he believed my dog would protect me. At the time my dog had only bit bite pillows, tugs, and bite sleeves. Those were all visual cues that he had pemission to bite, and biting rules applied. I was under no such illusion. Even a decent sports dog will get confused the first time it is offered a leg sleeve, let alone being offered a body bite. They have to be taught the rules of biting and frequently they need a couple of bites giving them permission to take something other than an arm.

ETA: If deterrence, rather than protection is the goal, then most of what I posted is null and void. But if deterrence is the goal, do not expect the dog to protect.

Coyotesfan97

In the same vein, I get a kick out of people who tell me that a woman should not carry a knife (fixed blade) for defense, because it will be taken away from her and used against her. Training is preferred, but desperation and panic can work. During that askhole discussion I offer the woman an uncapped marker and challange dude to take it away from her without getting "cut" to hell and back.

Cecil Burch

pat

Basically what Pat said. My unit has a reputation for getting “hard” dogs and we like Mals and Dutch Shepherds from Holland trained in KNPV. KNPV was developed to train dogs for police work and the puppies start about 8-12 weeks. So from the time they are puppies they are trained and conditioned to bite the suit. The tricky part is transitioning them from the suit to biting for real. You don’t know for sure if a dog will bite for real until he gets a street bite. Our training for new dogs usually gives us a pretty good idea if they will.

Dogs survive the world with fight or flight. An untrained dog will generally posture and show defense but he more than likely is going to use the flight mode if he is pushed by a determined attacker. There is no shame to them for running like there is for humans. If you back a dog into a corner where there is no escape and push him he’ll go into fight mode as a last resort.

I’d looked at an untrained dog or a “protection” dog as a deterrent just as I view an unarmed security guard at the local stop and rob. For the vast majority of people a hackles up, barking GSD is going to work. But there’s a small percentage of people it’s not. In my old world we prepared our dogs for meeting and biting/fighting the violent one percenter.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

At work, we did not have mandatory run,hide,fight training. There was a presentation by the campus law that was voluntary, plus an online show. Both were trivial. Interestingly, very few faculty went to the presentation. Lots of staff did as it was time off from real work (unlike faculty).

We did have mandatory sexual harassment training videos that you had to view and it was clocked. One took you through what was a sensible list of really stupid behaviors and things to say. Another was a video of a ballet teacher molesting an 8 year old girl as a lesson. There was push back on the latter as we didn't teach 8 year olds.

Most of this sort of training is to establish a liability defense if things go south.

I did find that many faculty were incapable of really conceptualizing fighting beyond some lucky tackle. Our major classroom was a killing field for various reasons if you planned it. I'll skip the reasons. I did mention it to the TX legislature when I testified on campus carry. Got that remark on TV!!

So I said to one young nice male colleague, what would you do it a shooter came in? He said: What can you do?

That's that. In a department meeting, I said training is good. The chair said we are glad you trained as female prof X trained. I said, what did she do. Oh - she plays Rugby.

[olstyn]

Yeah, institutional cognitive dissonance is a pretty tough wall to try to break down, especially if you're the little guy. :(

It's easy enough to have rational conversations about it with individual coworkers, but trying to actually change the corporate direction on it...well, there's a lot of inertia there.

[UNM1136]

At my workplace, it wasn't even a debate. It was just a required "training" we had to sit through instructing us on run/hide/fight.

The idiocy of the picture in said presentation/training of 3 or 4 people trying to hold a door shut while a bad guy with an AR was poking the muzzle of said AR through the opening of the door was amazing. My reaction as someone who actually shoots guns was basically "the bad guy would just back off and put 10-15 rounds through the door, resulting in some number of dead/injured people and a door that was no longer difficult to open." There are also designated rooms in the building which supposedly have extra secure doors with wedges intended to allow you to keep them shut from the inside. Of course basically all of those rooms have glass walls, so again, bad guy just puts some rounds through the door and/or the glass and moves on with life.

Run/hide/fight as presented by corporations (and presumably also schools) is just insanely tone deaf, and even the relatively uninitiated see through it in mere moments when even one or two of the ridiculous things about it are pointed out to them.

One thing that has worked in the past has been defenders laying down and bracing the inward swinging doors with their feet. Something I still teach. BUT the only real protection there from a determined attacker is ignorance on the part of the attacker. A body may or may not keep a door from swinging in...I prolly shared a bit too much there on a public forum, so PM if you need more specific information....I also like doorstops and other stuff to limit door swing....but glass walls is just stupid, and does not allow you to hide or fight very effectively.

I currently teach ALERRT's Avoid, Deny, Defend. Maybe semantics, but sometimes words have meaning...

pat

[UNM1136]

So from the time they are puppies they are trained and conditioned to bite the suit.

"Eyes to the outside..."😜

Our training director is an actual member of the KNPV, membership originating during that very short period of time that foreigners were allowed, but those damn Dutch rules....

pat

[Coyotesfan97]

"Eyes to the outside..."😜

Our training director is an actual member of the KNPV, membership originating during that very short period of time that foreigners were allowed, but those damn Dutch rules....

pat


There are a few American breeders and trainers who could take their US dogs to Holland and get certified dogs but rules. I still want to go to the National KNPV trial.

[Duces Tecum]

In the same vein, I get a kick out of people who tell me that a woman should not carry a knife (fixed blade) for defense, because it will be taken away from her and used against her. Training is preferred, but desperation and panic can work. During that askhole discussion I offer the woman an uncapped marker and challange dude to take it away from her without getting "cut" to hell and back.

There's a difference, I think, between a thug separating a woman from her marker and the same thug beating the shit out of her and then collecting the marker at his / her / its convenience.

[CraigS]

I guess I am not a very nice person because one thing that bothers me about this whole thread is why would anyone put themselves in this position. I understand that it has been common practice for a long time for the counselor to sit w/ the person in a private office w/ no barriers. But for me, at some point, the safety of the counselor absolutely outweighs the success of the counseling.

[WobblyPossum]

Scheduling client sessions in such a way that no counselor is ever completely alone in the office with a client should be a priority. An alarm system with an audible alarm that dialed in to police dispatch would also be good. I don’t know what the privacy restrictions of the practice would require or limit with regards to video monitoring/recording. If visible cameras are an option, they should be purchased and installed. Maybe at least in the common areas and entrances/exits if they can’t be installed in the individual rooms in which the sessions take place.

Weapon wise, since guns aren’t an option for your wife right now, a concealed fixed blade knife and OC would be my preference were I in those circumstances. The only way I can think to conceal a fixed blade knife on-body in the kind of attire clinicians wear in such a way that it is accessible while seated would probably be a neck knife. Seated access is important because the client interaction aspect of the job is primarily performed while seated. With your wife being at this stage of pregnancy already, she’ll likely be slower getting up out of a seated position than she used to be.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

All these plans are fine. Consider this case: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kathryn_Faughey

While knives are fine, distance is your friend. Thus, a firearm or OC with training is preferable. Does one's mindset and/or work rules allow such solutions - that's a problem.

Not arguing against the knife but getting into knife distance, you are not getting out of a clever fight unscathed. Note that the guy who came to help didn't do so well.

[Cheap Shot]

Is it possible to use remote conferencing or phone calls in lieu of in person meetings? Telehealth and psychology today has HIPAA secure conferencing capabilities.

Safety > revenue growth

[Duelist]

All these plans are fine. Consider this case: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kathryn_Faughey

While knives are fine, distance is your friend. Thus, a firearm or OC with training is preferable. Does one's mindset and/or work rules allow such solutions - that's a problem.

Not arguing against the knife but getting into knife distance, you are not getting out of a clever fight unscathed. Note that the guy who came to help didn't do so well.

Yup.

One of the problems here is that this is a “helping profession”. We are there to help the clients, we have empathy for them, we are trained to think of them and regard them in positive, building ways and to help them find solutions to their issues. Protecting yourself is a concern, and it is discussed, but this requires two critical components: (1) the ability to instantly flip a switch from empathetic listening and caring to fighting for your life with absolute determination to win, (2) preparation mentally and physically to use a level of force that will potentially seriously harm another person.

Most of the providers I know don’t have either of those components in their mental toolkit. Plus, many of us work in places where we are legally forbidden from having any kind of weapon.

[LittleLebowski]

Clinic dog? A laid German Shepherd watching things can prevent problems before you even knew they were problems.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Duelist has it nailed. I do think a big dog in a therapeutic situation is not going to work. The dog needs care, might be disruptive and intimidating to some. A client gets angry (as for example in a couples session) and the dog reacts?

A therapist's office, professor's office, etc. - they are not like behind the counter of a store.

[UNM1136]

There's a difference, I think, between a thug separating a woman from her marker and the same thug beating the shit out of her and then collecting the marker at his / her / its convenience.

You are probably right, but how is that much different from anything discussed so far? Guns, blades, OC, security guys, dogs, cell phones, hand grenades......

We are practicioners...without cultivating mindset and training in others we are simply discussing what we think would be the best way to introduce and develop mindset and skills. While the lack of mindset and/or training is a huge problem, I don't want to handicap someone out the gate by telling them that they can't. Does this mean that I am into women's empowerment?

When it comes to mindset, you fequently have to fake it till you make it. Gotta start somewhere, like we all did.

pat

[UNM1136]

Clinic dog? A laid German Shepherd watching things can prevent problems before you even knew they were problems.

Getting my Mal laid was not the answer. He still has to be corrected when he gets the bite sleeve slipped and only wants to hump the crap out of it....

pat

[Duces Tecum]

You are probably right, but how is that much different from anything discussed so far? Guns, blades, OC, security guys, dogs, cell phones, hand grenades......

Good point, Pat.

All the items mentioned (save one) can be employed beyond arm's reach. Blades, however, cannot. You've got to be close to defend yourself with a knife. A Thug that is willing to take a cut or two can easily seize control the knife and subsequently visit his will upon the woman. The "marker test" would only demonstrate this.

Sidebar: A woman being alone with a known Thug and hoping for personal safety is a Kobayashi Maru test. It is only solvable by cheating. If cheating is not an available option, follow John Farnam's Rules: Don't go to stupid places with stupid people and do stupid things. Being a woman alone in a closed office (place) with a proven Thug (people) and hoping for personal security (thing) is a trifecta of Farnam violations.

[UNM1136]

Sidebar: A woman being alone with a known Thug and hoping for personal safety is a Kobayashi Maru test. It is only solvable by cheating. If cheating is not an available option, follow John Farnam's Rules: Don't go to stupid places with stupid people and do stupid things. Being a woman alone in a closed office (place) with a proven Thug (people) and hoping for personal security (thing) is a trifecta of Farnam violations.

Here we very much agree. As far as the other, desperation and a tool beats desperation alone.

pat

[UNM1136]

And in my experience, a thug willing to take a cut or two may well reconsider after taking a cut or two. Especially if they are good cuts.... Without making up a statistic, or bothering to try to research, when your sample size is one, you only have what happens, and it is impossible to predict whether anything specific will work. You pay your dues and take your chances.

pat