Haitian President assassinated

[LittleLebowski]

https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/haitian-president-shot-dead-home-overnight-pm-2021-07-07/


Haitian President Jovenel Moise was shot dead by unidentified attackers in his private residence overnight in a "barbaric act", the government said on Wednesday, stirring fears of escalating turmoil in the impoverished Caribbean nation.

The assassination coincided with a wave of gang violence in Port-au-Prince as armed groups have battled with police and one another for control of the streetsin recent months, turning many districts of the capital into no-go zones.

The 53-year-old president's wife, Martine Moise, was also shot in the attack that took place around 1 a.m. local time (0500 GMT) and was receiving medical treatment, Interim Prime Minister Claude Joseph said in a statement.

"A group of unidentified individuals, some of them speaking Spanish, attacked the private residence of the president of the republic and thus fatally wounded the head of state,” he said.

[HeavyDuty]

A hobby acquaintance (barely that) was a career FSO, and was assigned to Haiti as State staff for a few years before he got his end-of-career victory lap ambassadorship. He is diplomatic about it (duh), but you could always tell just how much of a hellhole the country was from his observations.

[blues]

Our guys who used to run maritime undercover ops (narcotics related) in the islands used to say...you never want to go to jail in Haiti.

It gives most other shitholes a bad name.


(This post is not intended to make a statement about race or ethnicity...simply the facts as relates to the realities faced in that desperate and impoverished nation.)

For that matter, searching Haitian freighters for dope, arms, etc. was the reason we all had to be inoculated for hepatitis back in the day.
(Cruise ships are bad enough.)

[SD]

Apparently the pistol packing thugs in Haiti didn't get the word from Mario Cuomo that by executive order he has declared a public health emergency do to gun violence.

[LittleLebowski]

A hobby acquaintance (barely that) was a career FSO, and was assigned to Haiti as State staff for a few years before he got his end-of-career victory lap ambassadorship. He is diplomatic about it (duh), but you could always tell just how much of a hellhole the country was from his observations.

It's funny how fucked up Haiti is compared to the country it borders (Dominican Republic).

[entropy]

I spent some time there in the late 90s. Mostly in and out of Port au Prince. I wish my children could see some of what I saw and experienced. Then they would know not only what true poverty is, but how it’s institutionalization makes it so.

[MK11]

My wife used to work for a major news network that offered counseling services to its foreign correspondents. The group that used those services the most weren't in war zones but reporters who covered the 2010 Haiti earthquake.

[Caballoflaco]

https://youtu.be/mFplUeVRRFI

[revchuck38]

It's funny how fucked up Haiti is compared to the country it borders (Dominican Republic).

That place hasn't had good governance since it won its independence in 1804. Black Louisianans who speak Creole are the descendants of slaves of white planters who left Haiti at that time and settled here.

Listening to NPR this morning, they reported that there's video available on the internet, including drone video. I haven't looked for it. They also said that in addition to the Spanish mentioned in the official notice, English was heard being spoken. No mention of which accent it was.

[HCM]

Apparently the pistol packing thugs in Haiti didn't get the word from Mario Cuomo that by executive order he has declared a public health emergency do to gun violence.

Well.... Mario Cuomo is dead so....

[NEPAKevin]

Well.... Mario Cuomo is dead so....

Holy Shit. The Haitians got Mario too! Damn that climate change! Oh the humanity!

Too soon?

[Casual Friday]

Listening to NPR this morning, they reported that there's video available on the internet, including drone video. I haven't looked for it. They also said that in addition to the Spanish mentioned in the official notice, English was heard being spoken. No mention of which accent it was.

Ed Calderon posted the video this morning. He seemed to think the accent sounded Venezuelan.

[SD]

My subconscious disregard (shit for brains) struck again, you are absolutely correct. Reading the news stories this morning, Andrew's abuse of executive powers and then assassination of Jovenel both stories paralleled in my mind. How i managed to slip back in time to Mario beats me.
Well.... Mario Cuomo is dead so....

[HCM]

Ed Calderon posted the video this morning. He seemed to think the accent sounded Venezuelan.

He said VZ or Cuban. Definitely Spanish speaking.

[HCM]

Holy Shit. The Haitians got Mario too! Damn that climate change! Oh the humanity!

Too soon?

Such a quick death would’ve been too good for scum like Mario Cuomo.

[ralph]

Well, time to roll in the next dictator who is perfectly willing to let the people of his country eat dog shit in the street, while he eats prime rib in his palace.. Some things never change. I’ll give the government of the Dominican Republic credit, they know when to close the border, and how to keep it closed.. That’s a lesson our government could benefit from. At this point, I don’t think there is a viable solution for Hati…

[TheNewbie]

Our guys who used to run maritime undercover ops (narcotics related) in the islands used to say...you never want to go to jail in Haiti.

It gives most other shitholes a bad name.


(This post is not intended to make a statement about race or ethnicity...simply the facts as relates to the realities faced in that desperate and impoverished nation.)

For that matter, searching Haitian freighters for dope, arms, etc. was the reason we all had to be inoculated for hepatitis back in the day.
(Cruise ships are bad enough.)


Makes sense, what you say.

Race means zero. Culture means a lot.


Most people have no idea how good we have it here. One exception to that statement is likely to be Haitian immigrants.


America is only better because it chooses to be better. If we stop making that choice we will be like the rest.

[UNK]

Well, time to roll in the next dictator who is perfectly willing to let the people of his country eat dog shit in the street, while he eats prime rib in his palace.. Some things never change. I’ll give the government of the Dominican Republic credit, they know when to close the border, and how to keep it closed.. That’s a lesson our government could benefit from. At this point, I don’t think there is a viable solution for Hati…

Cry havoc…and let slip the Dogs of War

[rob_s]

Haiti is an interesting case study in foreign aid and NGOs.

The core problem with Haiti is that “we” (meaning the rest of the world) keep throwing money at them and meddling in their shit. Most of the chaos there surrounds controlling all the “free” money that comes into the country.

IIRC their primary industry is foreign aid.

“We” have conditioned that population over decades NOT to work.

I recall an interview (on NPR no less) where they talked with a local woman that sold mangos. Mostly sat around collecting aid, but sold mangos. They asked her why she didn’t sell more mangos. She said that her land didn’t have enough water to support growing more mangos. They pointed out that there was a stream nearby, and she could dig a connecting trench to get the water from there to her mangos (they may have even offered to help dig the trench, I don’t recall). She said no, she couldn’t be bothered to dig a trench. Too busy sitting around collecting aid, I guess.

[entropy]

There’s big money in NGO’s and laundering what comes in the front door. Haiti, like many other “forever shitholes” around the world, provide this service.

For some in this world, it’s the perfect blueprint.

[vcdgrips]

“We” have conditioned that population over decades NOT to work."

Incredibly simplistic.

Does not touch that fact re the financial hole Haiti was put in when they essentially had to buy their independence from France to the functional equiv of 250 billion dollars.

We occupied the country for nearly 20 years-did we leave it better than we found it or did we install friendly folks to our business interests which institutionalized the corruption to date?

The answers to what is wrong with the country is far more nuanced.



Moreover, your conclusion based on listening to one NPR story does not square with an immigrant population in the US that is literally tearing it up in the classroom, on the track/field and in colleges/universities all over the country based on my actual observation of said families during my 26+ yr association with a college prep school (kids there for 14 yrs) and 15+ year association with Boy Scouts.

https://www.mlive.com/news/flint/2015/08/from_haiti_to_flint_woman_over.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/post/haitian-american-teen-gets-into-4-ivy-league-schools/2010/12/20/ABgZZuF_blog.html

http://amsterdamnews.com/news/2020/jul/02/public-school-ivy-league-how-dr-dabel-stayed-true-/

https://people.com/human-interest/regine-francois-chooses-columbia-after-11-ivy-league-college-acceptances/

[rob_s]

There’s big money in NGO’s and laundering what comes in the front door. Haiti, like many other “forever shitholes” around the world, provide this service.

For some in this world, it’s the perfect blueprint.

One of my plans to take advantage of the liberal tilt to the earth. Rather than fight it, profit from it.

These idiots forget that every NGO has a CEO colleting tons of money in salary for "helping".

[MK11]

Several ex-Colombian military, two Haitian-Americans in custody.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-57766749

[TDA]

74198

Looks like maybe some evidence spoliation issues as the seized weapons steadily turn from a bunch of Galil Aces into a Winchester Model 12 and machetes?

[entropy]

What’s a modern Third World Revolution without individual cell phones?

[RevolverRob]

This is a pretty straight forward operation as far as I can tell. No need to invoke any real conspiracy (though a lot of folks are). The president was due to remove the Prime Minister from power yesterday (Friday). Two days before he can do that, he gets whacked. Day after he gets whacked the PM makes himself de facto leader of Haiti. Haitian Parliament currently only has 10 of 30 seats filled, so a quorum to appoint a new leader cannot be achieved. There are apparently two Haitian Constitutions, one in French and one in Creole. For something to be legal it's supposed to be in both languages. So a conflicting line/procedure of succession exists, allowing the current PM to basically do whatever he wants, no one can argue.

The dudes arrested in this 'conspiracy' are either dumb or patsies or both. Sucks to be them, but they should be thankful they've only been arrested for conspiracy to murder the president of Haiti. If they had real dirt on somebody important, they'd be deader than Jeffrey Epstein.

[Hambo]

The answers to what is wrong with the country is far more nuanced.

Nobody likes a complicated answer. It took a long time for Haiti to get to its current state, and it will take a long time and a lot of effort to change it.


The president was due to remove the Prime Minister from power yesterday (Friday). Two days before he can do that, he gets whacked. Day after he gets whacked the PM makes himself de facto leader of Haiti.

Add one to the list of coups in Haiti's history.

[rob_s]

Nobody likes a complicated answer. It took a long time for Haiti to get to its current state, and it will take a long time and a lot of effort to change it.

Obviously we aren’t going to solve it overnight, or on pistolforum, and we have to eventual,y figure out if “we” even can or should solve it, but…

I find in general that the “it’s complicated” line of thought winds up with inaction. And in this case, maybe that’s ok. Does inaction in Haiti affect my life up or down in any appreciable way? Idk. I will, say, since things suck there I see a lot of enterprising Haitians come to this country a d bust their asses in my industry, which is a lot more than I can say for other various I’m grants from around the globe. So, in a way, maybe I’d prefer Haiti stay a shithole…

But on the subject of “it’s complicated”… yes adult problems are complicated. But there’s also such a thing as a root cause analysis. And IF “we” think we need to act on a problem, we have to pick at least some facet of the problem to act on. The system to date has not worked, that seems pretty clear. Creating a society where their e tire GDP is “free money” and where NGOs turn donations from well-meaning white-guilt liberals into riches for their CEOs is pretty clearly not working.

But I’m also not Pollyanna about it. NGOs gonna CEO, and people want to make money. If there’s a way to pivot those CEOs into doing something genuine,y productive to make money, and harness the power of those hard-working Haitians I know in this country, I think “we” could really make a difference there.

but we have to want to. And frankly, I don’t think anyone wants to. And anytime we’re looking for an excuse not to, all we have to do I say “it’s complicated”.

[JohnO]

Case Solved! :cool::cool::cool:

Haitian President Jovenel Moïse was elected in 2016, the same year that Hillary Clinton lost her bid for the White House.

Hilldabeast's run was bogged down by reports of how she and her Clinton Foundation ravaged the small country and bled it dry financially after the devastating earthquake back in 2010.

Tweet
Ole Murica
@OleMurica
Haiti’s President, Jovenel Moise, was helping investigators look into crimes committed against Haiti by the Clinton Foundation.

Today, Moise was Assassinated in his home
https://twitter.com/OleMurica/status/1412755797428289538

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cs5rh2AUIAEogzs?format=jpg&name=900x900

Clintons receiving news of assassination.

https://media0.giphy.com/media/l0HlADMS95lBYXUl2/giphy.gif?cid=ecf05e476oftkcq8k1ycxgz39sxovfn7gugs 4khdy517kvbb&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g

[Hambo]

But on the subject of “it’s complicated”… yes adult problems are complicated. But there’s also such a thing as a root cause analysis. And IF “we” think we need to act on a problem, we have to pick at least some facet of the problem to act on. The system to date has not worked, that seems pretty clear. Creating a society where their e tire GDP is “free money” and where NGOs turn donations from well-meaning white-guilt liberals into riches for their CEOs is pretty clearly not working.


Entire GDP? The GDP of Haiti runs $13-14 billion per year. From 2010-2012 Haiti received $6.4 billion in aid (I couldn't find anything stating that aid equals the GDP). Aid is not the total answer, nor is it the total problem. Deforestation, decades of dictatorships, and more than 30 coups are also contributing factors. As this commentary from 2015 points out, "over aid" is a problem, and even in 2015 NGOs were looking at alternatives. That's the easy part. Endemic corruption and unstable governments are much harder to change.

https://www.dailysignal.com/2015/12/18/the-negative-effects-on-haiti-of-too-much-foreign-aid/

[rob_s]

Entire GDP? The GDP of Haiti runs $13-14 billion per year. From 2010-2012 Haiti received $6.4 billion in aid (I couldn't find anything stating that aid equals the GDP). Aid is not the total answer, nor is it the total problem. Deforestation, decades of dictatorships, and more than 30 coups are also contributing factors. As this commentary from 2015 points out, "over aid" is a problem, and even in 2015 NGOs were looking at alternatives. That's the easy part. Endemic corruption and unstable governments are much harder to change.

https://www.dailysignal.com/2015/12/18/the-negative-effects-on-haiti-of-too-much-foreign-aid/

hy·per·bo·le
/hīˈpərbəlē/
noun
exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.


But nearly half is still a lot ;)

[Hambo]

But nearly half is still a lot ;)

That 6.4 was over three years. Reading is fundamental...or math? ;)

[Joe in PNG]

An interesting quote from the President of Rwanda, Paul Kagame (as relayed by a PNG newspaper (https://postcourier.com.pg/drum/)):

"I would rather argue, that we need to mobilize the right mindsets, rather than more funding. After all, in Africa, we have everything we need, in real terms. Whatever is lacking, we have the means to acquire. And yet, we remain mentally married to the idea that nothing can get moving without external finance. We are even begging for things we already have. That's absolutely a failure of mindset..."

It's a problem I literally drive on every day- too much of what is in the third world isn't taken care of, because someone else will come along and give them a new one. So, roads, power lines, hospitals, schools- all those things are built by other people and pretty much allowed to decay, because some other government will come in and build a new one (and give some new opportunities for graft in the process). In fact, why spend your own money on it at all? You may as well just pocket what little gets budgeted for your own use.

But, that brings up a problem that isn't new- the old Non-Aligned game. It's the old Cold War thing where the various 3rd Nations could play the US Bloc against the Soviet Bloc for various Foreign Aid packages, and where the leaders of those nations could grow quite rich doing so. Now that China is giving development loans (kinda like the Gambinos give out loans), they can now go back to avoiding any kind of potential accountability by leaning one way or the other.

I don't really know how the game ends for the big players, but the little 3rd world nations eventually get screwed over- and they're doing it to themselves.

[OlongJohnson]

An interesting quote from the President of Rwanda, Paul Kagame (as relayed by a PNG newspaper (https://postcourier.com.pg/drum/)):

"I would rather argue, that we need to mobilize the right mindsets, rather than more funding. After all, in Africa, we have everything we need, in real terms. Whatever is lacking, we have the means to acquire. And yet, we remain mentally married to the idea that nothing can get moving without external finance. We are even begging for things we already have. That's absolutely a failure of mindset..."

That country murdered its kulaks just like Soviet Russia.

Reliable numbers are difficult to come by, but widely accepted estimates are that the approximately 15 percent of the population that was associated with a modicum of economic success was genocided, reducing its population by about 85 percent. That leaves 15 percent of 15 percent, or about 2.25 percent of the pre-genocide population, about 2.6 percent of the post-genocide population, which is below the 3 percent that Taleb hypothesizes is the point where significant cultural differences become disruptive to a society.

So there's a hypothesis lurking that Rwanda became relatively peaceful without a long, drawn-out "nation building" like effort after the troubles because the genocide was "successful" (in the sense of largely accomplishing the goals of those who set it in motion).



It's a problem I literally drive on every day- too much of what is in the third world isn't taken care of, because someone else will come along and give them a new one. So, roads, power lines, hospitals, schools- all those things are built by other people and pretty much allowed to decay, because some other government will come in and build a new one (and give some new opportunities for graft in the process). In fact, why spend your own money on it at all? You may as well just pocket what little gets budgeted for your own use.

I need to sleep instead of staying up looking for the right words, but it strikes me that there's a parallel between this approach and the approach of nations that are able to fund themselves with debt. No need to invest and pay for stuff and maintain it yourself with taxes, when your children and grandchildren and great grandchildren can buy you whatever you want, assuming they still have a country with the same name as yours to surrender their productivity to. The idea needs developing, but I'm not sure we aren't screwing ourselves at least as badly.

[Joe in PNG]

That country murdered its kulaks just like Soviet Russia.

Reliable numbers are difficult to come by, but widely accepted estimates are that the approximately 15 percent of the population that was associated with a modicum of economic success was genocided, reducing its population by about 85 percent. That leaves 15 percent of 15 percent, or about 2.25 percent of the pre-genocide population, about 2.6 percent of the post-genocide population, which is below the 3 percent that Taleb hypothesizes is the point where significant cultural differences become disruptive to a society.

So there's a hypothesis lurking that Rwanda became relatively peaceful without a long, drawn-out "nation building" like effort after the troubles because the genocide was "successful" (in the sense of largely accomplishing the goals of those who set it in motion).

It's an interesting quote about relying on foreign aid for everything, and not intended to advocate the actions of his government, past or current. Sometimes, broken clocks are right for a bit.

But the thing about relying on foreign aid- it's still a trap. If a country cannot and will not get it's finances in order to build and maintain it's own basic infrastructure, but constantly relies on other nations to do it for them, how are they ever going to be able to really be independent, and manage to become successful on their own, through their own efforts?

[Baldanders]

That country murdered its kulaks just like Soviet Russia.

Reliable numbers are difficult to come by, but widely accepted estimates are that the approximately 15 percent of the population that was associated with a modicum of economic success was genocided, reducing its population by about 85 percent. That leaves 15 percent of 15 percent, or about 2.25 percent of the pre-genocide population, about 2.6 percent of the post-genocide population, which is below the 3 percent that Taleb hypothesizes is the point where significant cultural differences become disruptive to a society.

So there's a hypothesis lurking that Rwanda became relatively peaceful without a long, drawn-out "nation building" like effort after the troubles because the genocide was "successful" (in the sense of largely accomplishing the goals of those who set it in motion).




I need to sleep instead of staying up looking for the right words, but it strikes me that there's a parallel between this approach and the approach of nations that are able to fund themselves with debt. No need to invest and pay for stuff and maintain it yourself with taxes, when your children and grandchildren and great grandchildren can buy you whatever you want, assuming they still have a country with the same name as yours to surrender their productivity to. The idea needs developing, but I'm not sure we aren't screwing ourselves at least as badly.


Keep in mind US debt is merely a promise to pay back lenders in a currency we can literally create at will in any finite amount we wish,

The only danger is inflation.

I doubt inflation will tank the dollar as the world's reserve currency before a collision of countries wanting to immunize themselves from our weaponized banking system do it.

My guess is #2 is when. Not an if.

But that will make our debt even more damaging to those who hold it.

IMO, we should exploit this situation while we can,

A massive devaluation of US currency would have many upsides. Particularly if you hold massive debt.

[Baldanders]

That country murdered its kulaks just like Soviet Russia.

Reliable numbers are difficult to come by, but widely accepted estimates are that the approximately 15 percent of the population that was associated with a modicum of economic success was genocided, reducing its population by about 85 percent. That leaves 15 percent of 15 percent, or about 2.25 percent of the pre-genocide population, about 2.6 percent of the post-genocide population, which is below the 3 percent that Taleb hypothesizes is the point where significant cultural differences become disruptive to a society.

So there's a hypothesis lurking that Rwanda became relatively peaceful without a long, drawn-out "nation building" like effort after the troubles because the genocide was "successful" (in the sense of largely accomplishing the goals of those who set it in motion).




I need to sleep instead of staying up looking for the right words, but it strikes me that there's a parallel between this approach and the approach of nations that are able to fund themselves with debt. No need to invest and pay for stuff and maintain it yourself with taxes, when your children and grandchildren and great grandchildren can buy you whatever you want, assuming they still have a country with the same name as yours to surrender their productivity to. The idea needs developing, but I'm not sure we aren't screwing ourselves at least as badly.


Keep in mind US debt is merely a promise to pay back lenders in a currency we can literally create at will in any finite amount we wish,

The only danger is inflation.

I doubt inflation will tank the dollar as the world's reserve currency before a collision of countries wanting to immunize themselves from our weaponized banking system do it.

My guess is #2 is when. Not an if.

But that will make our debt even more damaging to those who hold it.

IMO, we should exploit this situation while we can,

A massive devaluation of US currency would have many upsides. Particularly if you hold massive debt.

[olstyn]

A massive devaluation of US currency would have many upsides. Particularly if you hold massive debt.

Call me crazy if you will, but I think that has massive downsides for ordinary citizens. Making the dollar exceptionally weak would mean unfavorable exchange rates, which would make foreign goods extraordinarily expensive, and there are lots of things where "just buy American" is not the answer.

[entropy]

A massive devaluation of US currency would have many upsides. Particularly if you hold massive debt.

What? Are you serious? Think about what you’re saying for a minute huh?

Good grief.