Winning with the Manurhin

[jetfire]

So Beretta asked me if I wanted an MR73 and I said “do you want to ask me another stupid question?” Next thing you know I had a brand new MR73 Gendarmerie in my grubby little hands. I thought to myself “self, what’s a good way to see what this gun can really do?” I know! Shoot it at some IDPA matches. So I took it to the 2021 IL State Championship, and I guess I did okay. Here’s the hype reel


https://facebook.com/213740424000409

And here’s the end result

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And now for the stuff people actually care about: support gear. Good news, if you didn’t know already, Safariland Comp-III for K-frames work great with the MR73. Holsters are a bit wonky, it’s bigger than a K-frame and smaller than an L-frame, so it wouldn’t fit quite right in my Combat Master. A Kydex gun bucket from Blade Tech for a GP100 worked well enough for matches, although I had to crank the retention down a bit.

Trigger was 8.5 lbs out of the box, I left it alone. It cracked everything that went under it, but to be fair all I fed it was Federal and Speer.

Now, the grips. How do they work for shooting at speed? Surprisingly well, actually. It turns out that my strong hand thumb rests nicely on the “hump” which leaves a lot of space for my support hand to establish surface contact area.

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The only downside to my grip being this high is there’s the possibility of getting hammer bite from the hammer spur, but I’ll probably just delete that with a dremel at some point, because as I’ve said, single action mode is for the old and feeble.

The MR73 is stupid accurate and stupid easy to shoot well. If I wanted to make it into the ultimate Go-Fast speedloader gun for IDPA and ICORE, I’d give it a smooth trigger, chamfer the charge holes, bob the hammer, and give it a thinner front sight with a fiber optic. Proving once again that even if you give a competition shooter what is basically the best gun on planet earth, they still want to tinker with it.

This gun fucks though. It fucks so hard I’m going to shooting at the Hoosier Regional in July, and the Ohio Regional in September.

[Super77]

Nice shooting, and nice gun!

How would you characterize the handling/manipulation compared to a S&W, i.e. does it eject cartridges reliably etc.?

I'm really interested to see how the MR73 performs long term in the hands of someone who actually shoots it. By all accounts it seems like it should hold up to just about anything you can throw at it. Can't wait to see it with some holster wear.

[WobblyPossum]

I’ll be following this with interest. I can’t wait to see how you do at the rest of the big matches you plan to shoot it at. Assuming they’re still being imported in a few years when I can afford to drop $3k on a gun that I want just because it’s cool, I plan on picking one up.

[Totem Polar]

This thread is already the stuff of legend, and it’s still early in the day.

[Flamingo]

For the folks who don't facebook, could you put the video on your YouTube channel?

[RevolverRob]

Love this thread. But I still want to punch you in the face for getting one before me.

[jetfire]

Nice shooting, and nice gun!

How would you characterize the handling/manipulation compared to a S&W, i.e. does it eject cartridges reliably etc.?

I'm really interested to see how the MR73 performs long term in the hands of someone who actually shoots it. By all accounts it seems like it should hold up to just about anything you can throw at it. Can't wait to see it with some holster wear.

The manual of arms is the same as an S&W, which is nice. One note was that it needs to be held pretty vertical when unloading. If you do a Jerry-style reload (swap hands) the spent case that’s closest to the frame can get hung up on the grips. If you do my modified stressfire reload, everything falls away easily.

[willie]

The fact that these revolvers have been almost unobtainable contributes to their mystique and makes us want one. The manufacture of modern firearms has undergone many changes. Forged parts are not the norm. CNC machines produce parts requiring less hand fitting. My question is this: are they made today as they were in the past? Are some parts MIM parts? What is he degree of hand fitting? Knowledgeable revolver shooters are not as numerous as they once were. Some who buy these won't know the difference, but that's ok.

[OlongJohnson]

The fact that these revolvers have been almost unobtainable contributes to their mystique and makes us want one. The manufacture of modern firearms has undergone many changes. Forged parts are not the norm. CNC machines produce parts requiring less hand fitting. My question is this: are they made today as they were in the past? Are some parts MIM parts? What is he degree of hand fitting? Knowledgeable revolver shooters are not as numerous as they once were. Some who buy these won't know the difference, but that's ok.

All that is discussed in the "Beretta is importing" thread.

[willie]

Olong, please restate the part about forged vs MIM parts. I can't locate that in the thread. Thank you.

[Half Moon]

Olong, please restate the part about forged vs MIM parts. I can't locate that in the thread. Thank you.

zeleny discusses some of this at post 192 of that thread:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?47835-Beretta-is-bringing-in-MR73-revolvers&p=1220118&viewfull=1#post1220118

[Jim Watson]

The manual of arms is the same as an S&W, which is nice. One note was that it needs to be held pretty vertical when unloading. If you do a Jerry-style reload (swap hands) the spent case that’s closest to the frame can get hung up on the grips. If you do my modified stressfire reload, everything falls away easily.

You gotta clear the grip, but my shabby looking Vienna PD tradein must have smooth chambers. It ejects better than my American revolvers.

I am glad to see somebody using one for shooting instead of a ballistic fashion statement.

[OlongJohnson]

You gotta clear the grip, but my shabby looking Vienna PD tradein must have smooth chambers.

It does. That's the roller burnishing, also discussed in the other thread.

[ccmdfd]

Congrats on the win and here's hoping for many more!

[Inkwell 41]

For the folks who don't facebook, could you put the video on your YouTube channel?

Seconded!

[JCN]

Nice job jetfire !

[jetfire]

The fact that these revolvers have been almost unobtainable contributes to their mystique and makes us want one. The manufacture of modern firearms has undergone many changes. Forged parts are not the norm. CNC machines produce parts requiring less hand fitting. My question is this: are they made today as they were in the past? Are some parts MIM parts? What is he degree of hand fitting? Knowledgeable revolver shooters are not as numerous as they once were. Some who buy these won't know the difference, but that's ok.

So I actually talked to the French about this and have a bunch of fun documents from them, but the TL;DR is that aside from 2 process improvements the gun is basically the same as it was in 1973 and has extensive hand fitting.

And as an aside, if you made a Model 29 or a Colt Python the same way it was made in 1973 it would cost 3500 bucks too

[Spartan1980]

So I actually talked to the French about this and have a bunch of fun documents from them, but the TL;DR is that aside from 2 process improvements the gun is basically the same as it was in 1973 and has extensive hand fitting.

And as an aside, if you made a Model 29 or a Colt Python the same way it was made in 1973 it would cost 3500 bucks too

Yep. A lot of people think that CNC will make perfect parts every time for as long as they want to let the machine run. Not so much really. They do very well with all the feedback and compensations to the computer control and are certainly an advancement over old school manual machines but all the same machining type things still apply.

Glad to hear that there is no MIM in them. A new MR73 is going on my list and like you I'll shoot it hard. If there were any IDPA matches around me I'd run it even harder.

[willie]

So I actually talked to the French about this and have a bunch of fun documents from them, but the TL;DR is that aside from 2 process improvements the gun is basically the same as it was in 1973 and has extensive hand fitting.

And as an aside, if you made a Model 29 or a Colt Python the same way it was made in 1973 it would cost 3500 bucks too

As a 50 plus year student of Smith and Colt revolvers, I want to offer this opinion. If the MR73 is made with the care and attention to detail described here, it far exceeds anything that Smith or Colt made after WW2. In 1973 both were cranking out large numbers of product showing poor quality.

The Rifleman years ago presented an article where a Colt master fitter was interviewed. He said that a master fitter could assemble 4 Colt Official Police revolvers per hour. The same guys could assemble 3 Pythons per hour. They used files, babbitt bars, and an occasional stone, and they had buckets of parts.

The factory where the French revolver is made still has highly trained craftsmen. They are rare in today's world.

[jetfire]

The factory where the French revolver is made still has highly trained craftsmen. They are rare in today's world.

Lol no they aren’t. I’ve been to plenty of firearms factories in America and you can’t swing a dead cat without hitting a highly trained craftsman.

It’s just now they’re using technology you don’t understand

[Scal]

So I actually talked to the French about this and have a bunch of fun documents from them, but the TL;DR is that aside from 2 process improvements the gun is basically the same as it was in 1973 and has extensive hand fitting.


Is there any way we could see the fun documents? I am interested in getting info direct from Chapuis, as opposed to internet rumors- as long as it’s not too much trouble and you can post them freely.

[jetfire]

Is there any way we could see the fun documents? I am interested in getting info direct from Chapuis, as opposed to internet rumors- as long as it’s not too much trouble and you can post them freely.

Those are under an NDA as far as I know, but I’ll be happy to show you the article I wrote using them as primary sources.

[Scal]

Ah, gotcha. Glad that you’re getting solid info, and it makes sense since you’re ya know, writing professional articles about the gun. For some reason, most companies don’t want to give detailed manufacturing, assembly, and material data to curious internet randos like me.

[Stephanie B]

For my skill level, a Model 15 or a 686 in 4" will do for me.

But I still want a MR.73. (Or a Python.)

[jetfire]

For my skill level, a Model 15 or a 686 in 4" will do for me.

But I still want a MR.73. (Or a Python.)

If I had to pick between a Python and an MR73 I’d sell a kidney and get both

[Stephanie B]

For my skill level, a Model 15 or a 686 in 4" will do for me.

But I still want a MR.73. (Or a Python.)


If I had to pick between a Python and an MR73 I’d sell a kidney and get both

How about if I sell yours? :rolleyes:

[jetfire]

How about if I sell yours? :rolleyes:

They’re ruined with booze

[Totem Polar]

The last 4 post are pure P-F gold.

[jetfire]

The last 4 post are pure P-F gold.

You stay away from my organs I needs them

[Totem Polar]

You stay away from my organs I needs them

Liver die in LA… or FL…




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bf4x36XKhsM

[MandoWookie]

Those are under an NDA as far as I know, but I’ll be happy to show you the article I wrote using them as primary sources.

Based on what you know, how do you think this would hold up versus current production Ruger and S&W revolvers long term? Like over a year of competition and practice?

[jetfire]

Based on what you know, how do you think this would hold up versus current production Ruger and S&W revolvers long term? Like over a year of competition and practice?

I have shot a current production Ruger over an entire match season and it held up fine. The different between that and a Manurhin isn’t match season durability. It’s generational durability. After 50,000 rounds of slamming into the cylinder stop chasing 0.20 splits will the Manurhin be the same or will it go out of time? That’s the question we seek to answer. You see, because shooting 100,000 magnum rounds is impressive, unless we know how fast those rounds were shot it doesn’t mean anything to people who still care about revolvers.

[Jim Watson]

If I had to pick between a Python and an MR73 I’d sell a kidney and get both

I've got both. Not bragging, I have had them since the previous century when prices were not bad.
But when I want to shoot SSR, unless it is a nostalgia trip or economics*, I pick up a Smith. The decision is K or L frame. And if there were enough of those full lug 4" K38s that the collectors hadn't run up the price, there wouldn't even be that decision.

*Economics. In these trying times, I have more large primers than small, so I am shooting more .45s, auto and revolver than .38 or 9mm. The M25-2 sawn off for IDPA is quick on the reload, but heavy on the draw and transition.



After 50,000 rounds of slamming into the cylinder stop chasing 0.20 splits will the Manurhin be the same or will it go out of time?

Good question. A friend has shot out two barrels with .38 wadcutters, about 150,000 each. No doubt the guns needed action work by then. But that was PPC, which is not rapid fire by modern standards.

[RevolverRob]

You stay away from my organs I needs them

You can have the organs or the guns...but not both.


How about if I sell yours? :rolleyes:

You wanna hold him down or do the cutting? Whichever one you don't want to do, I'll do. ;)

[Joe in PNG]

You stay away from my organs I needs them

Depends on the organs. Hammond B-3s and old Farfisas are pretty cool, but who wants a Lowery these days?

[jtcarm]

The manual of arms is the same as an S&W, which is nice. One note was that it needs to be held pretty vertical when unloading. If you do a Jerry-style reload (swap hands) the spent case that’s closest to the frame can get hung up on the grips. If you do my modified stressfire reload, everything falls away easily.

That’s one downside I’ve found with rubber grips. I’m a weak-sider. One time I rubbed the edge of my UMs with the nose of a bullet en-route to the cylinder. It caught & nearly twisted the Comp 3 out of my hand.

BTW: YOU SUCK!

[BehindBlueI's]

This thread has been cleaned up again. Keep it somewhat on topic.

[vtfarmer]

I have shot a current production Ruger over an entire match season and it held up fine. The different between that and a Manurhin isn’t match season durability. It’s generational durability. After 50,000 rounds of slamming into the cylinder stop chasing 0.20 splits will the Manurhin be the same or will it go out of time? That’s the question we seek to answer. You see, because shooting 100,000 magnum rounds is impressive, unless we know how fast those rounds were shot it doesn’t mean anything to people who still care about revolvers.
That's what I've always wondered when I read about those high Manurhin round counts. Were they done totally without maintenance? Or was there a staff armorer who replaced action parts as necessary? Or were most of the rounds fired single action? It'll be interesting to see what your results are over the next few years.

[Wondering Beard]

That's what I've always wondered when I read about those high Manurhin round counts. Were they done totally without maintenance? Or was there a staff armorer who replaced action parts as necessary? Or were most of the rounds fired single action? It'll be interesting to see what your results are over the next few years.

Since the numbers we hear about are about GIGN use, I highly doubt the rounds were fired single action at all. Also, because those guns are used by GIGN, I doubt they were chasing .20 splits but rather were working at the speeds that Daryl Bolke and Scott Reitz would refer to as "assessment speeds" (my wording). It's still plenty fast (considering how capable the unit is) but it wouldn't be pushing the revolver to the limits jetfire is talking about.

At least that's my guess and don't hesitate to correct me if I'm wrong.

[Jim Watson]

On the other thread, we learned that one of the exercises was 10 shots in 25 sec (20 for instructors) reloading with loose ammo.
This is the original PPC close range requirement and it is a lot tougher without speed loaders.

[JSGlock34]

Some vintage MR73 action with GIGN. I particularly appreciate the SCUBA use.
1366396643801726987

[entropy]

That was a whole chunk of 70’s right there!

[Willard]

Single action shooting at about :26 and earlier same clip.

[JSGlock34]

GIGN's Instagram page (https://www.instagram.com/p/CNwwaQ4rAYh/) has some good pics of the MR73 along with some unit history...

Avril 2021, valeurs et traditions, remise officielle du MR73 aux stagiaires du GIGN. Cette arme symbolique a construit les lettres de noblesses de l’unité, même si elle n’est plus utilisée en mission aujourd’hui. L’opération de libération d’otages â Marignane par exemple, peut paraître lointaine tant le GIGN a évolué en 26 ans, mais elle reste proche tant cette mission est emblématique des valeurs du GIGN.

via Google Translate...

April 2021, values ​​and traditions, official delivery of the MR73 to GIGN trainees. This symbolic weapon built the letters of nobility of the unit, although it is no longer used on missions today. The hostage rescue operation in Marignane, for example, may seem remote as the GIGN has evolved in 26 years, but it remains close as this mission is emblematic of the values ​​of the GIGN.

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They also uniquely used the MR73 to bid adieu to 2020...
p/CJd6IPNqWVk

[Joe Mac]

They also uniquely used the MR73 to bid adieu to 2020...


Oh, for fuck's sake... I'd expect that kind of assclownery from the Russians.

[JSGlock34]

Oh, for fuck's sake... I'd expect that kind of assclownery from the Russians.

Yeah, GIGN is big on the confidence shot. Apparently it is something of a rite of passage for new unit members. Certainly not something I endorse, but I think it is deeply embedded now in their history and culture.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJecVFaLGq0

For what it is worth, here's a statement about it (via Google translate)...

After 14 months of training, each, the day before receiving his patent, passes a final test: a shot at one of his comrades.

It is a 15m shot to the revolver, weapon used for instruction, on a clay pigeon, fixed on the bulletproof vest of the "target."

This shot takes on a particular symbolism, beyond the technical gesture, mastered at the end of formation. He illustrates trust in itself: "I have received training that makes me confident, sure to reach my target without a doubt. I will not fail. "

Mutual trust: "He trusts me, he will not move, for fear or bad reflex, the second I fire."

Mutual trust always: "I trust the one who is aiming at me. Trained like me, he will not miss his target."

Finally, my former, already patented, with whom I will leave on a mission from tomorrow can now grant me their confidence.

Apparently they take it to another level with their snipers.
p/CPDx-dTNg1l

[rob_s]

Maybe I missed it but…

Are scores, preferably with who was shooting what, for this match posted somewhere? I googled but couldn’t find…

[elsquid]

Maybe I missed it but…

Are scores, preferably with who was shooting what, for this match posted somewhere? I googled but couldn’t find…

Scores:

https://practiscore.com/results/new/139589?q_division=7

— Michael

[jetfire]

Maybe I missed it but…

Are scores, preferably with who was shooting what, for this match posted somewhere? I googled but couldn’t find…

It's not like practiscore is hard to search, Rob.

[jetfire]

A note on the match and some off-thread criticism that popped up.

It's hard out here for revolver, sometimes you get matches with a lot of heat and sometimes you don't. This was the latter. I've even said elsewhere that I should have won by a lot more than I did, but sometimes you go down 5 on a static target because you made a shitty shot. But along those lines, a quote from a real world champion about this exact subject: "A win is a win. None of the people talking shit about it showed up, so who gives a fuck what they think?"

I think that's a very relevant quote.

[19852+]

GIGN's Instagram page (https://www.instagram.com/p/CNwwaQ4rAYh/) has some good pics of the MR73 along with some unit history...

Avril 2021, valeurs et traditions, remise officielle du MR73 aux stagiaires du GIGN. Cette arme symbolique a construit les lettres de noblesses de l’unité, même si elle n’est plus utilisée en mission aujourd’hui. L’opération de libération d’otages â Marignane par exemple, peut paraître lointaine tant le GIGN a évolué en 26 ans, mais elle reste proche tant cette mission est emblématique des valeurs du GIGN.

via Google Translate...

April 2021, values ​​and traditions, official delivery of the MR73 to GIGN trainees. This symbolic weapon built the letters of nobility of the unit, although it is no longer used on missions today. The hostage rescue operation in Marignane, for example, may seem remote as the GIGN has evolved in 26 years, but it remains close as this mission is emblematic of the values ​​of the GIGN.

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They also uniquely used the MR73 to bid adieu to 2020...
p/CJd6IPNqWVk

Man ! I wish that was the prize table at my next match !

[Trooper224]

Personally, I could care less about Caleb's competitive standing. A W is a W, you do you bro. What I'm VERY interested in is the longterm performance of the MR73. Anything we have on it is somewhat anecdotal and some hard data would be great. If he wants to go medieval on it with a dremel, a bench grinder or whatever, fine. Just keep us posted on the data, that's the kind of stuff that PF is supposed to be about.

[Stephanie B]

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That holster's gonna get him kilt in da streetz!

[Trooper224]

That holster's gonna get him kilt in da streetz!

It's France, it's "La Streetz".

[jetfire]

It's France, it's "La Streetz".

la rue, really

Idiom doesn’t translate well but roughly “assassiné dans la rue”

Which is what I’m going to put on the back of my Manurhin jersey

[Trooper224]

la rue, really

Idiom doesn’t translate well but roughly “assassiné dans la rue”

Which is what I’m going to put on the back of my Manurhin jersey

You're a daisy if you don't.

Or should I say, "Tu es une marguerite si tu ne le fais pas."

[Stephanie B]

la rue, really

Idiom doesn’t translate well but roughly “assassiné dans la rue”

Which is what I’m going to put on the back of my Manurhin jersey

Sad thing is that if you showed up with a GIGN rig, some worthy would ding you for having an uncovered trigger guard. "It was good enough for the GIGN, it ought to be good enough for you pissants" likely would win no friends.

[Stephanie B]

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The guns on the table appear to have 4" barrels, but the one in the holster is 6" or so?

[Le Français]

The guns on the table appear to have 4" barrels, but the one in the holster is 6" or so?

The Gendarmerie used a variety of barrel lengths for the MR-73. I want to say there was even an 8-inch one with a bipod.

The GIGN now sensibly uses 9mm Glocks.

[Spartan1980]

GIGN's Instagram page (https://www.instagram.com/p/CNwwaQ4rAYh/) has some good pics of the MR73 along with some unit history...

They also uniquely used the MR73 to bid adieu to 2020...
p/CJd6IPNqWVk

I guess the ammo shortage hit them too, hence the use of .38SP +P. And is no eyepro for either participant the norm there? Just a couple of piddly little quips I noticed.

[BillSWPA]

That holster's gonna get him kilt in da streetz!

In all seriousness, when I visited France (middle 1980's), the police were wearing flap holsters.

[jetfire]

The Gendarmerie used a variety of barrel lengths for the MR-73. I want to say there was even an 8-inch one with a bipod.

The GIGN now sensibly uses 9mm Glocks.

Re: the Sniper MR73 was a very real thing that did/does exist. When Forgotten Weapons went to France he did a piece on it.

[Wondering Beard]

The guns on the table appear to have 4" barrels, but the one in the holster is 6" or so?

I think that's a 5"

[RJ]

Caleb - Good luck with the MR73, will be interested how it works out long term. The chances of me ever shooting or owning one of these is nil.

What I could see owning however is a Ruger GP100. While I’m not equating a GP100 to an MR73 in any way, the contrast might be interesting.

Would you consider adding some thoughts to this thread about the key differences that discriminate this $3,600 (I think that’s the price I saw) revolver vs. one at a lower price price point?

Thanks a bunch.

[Stephanie B]

Caleb - Good luck with the MR73, will be interested how it works out long term. The chances of me ever shooting or owning one of these is nil.

What I could see owning however is a Ruger GP100. While I’m not equating a GP100 to an MR73 in any way, the contrast might be interesting.

Would you consider adding some thoughts to this thread about the key differences that discriminate this $3,600 (I think that’s the price I saw) revolver vs. one at a lower price price point?

Thanks a bunch.
jetfire - I also would be interested in this; a comparison of the GP100, 686, Python and MR.73 would be huge. You may be one of few in a position to discuss such a comparison.

[jetfire]

jetfire - I also would be interested in this; a comparison of the GP100, 686, Python and MR.73 would be huge. You may be one of few in a position to discuss such a comparison.

I actually did exactly that video minus the Manurhin a bit ago on GAT Daily's YouTube channel:


https://youtu.be/Lhk2Cp9Vubw

It's 17 minutes but I try to break down where each revolver sits and what pros/cons each platform has. When I get enough rounds on the MR73 to have a real concrete opinion, I'll do an update.

[Stephanie B]

I actually did exactly that video minus the Manurhin a bit ago on GAT Daily's YouTube channel:


https://youtu.be/Lhk2Cp9Vubw

It's 17 minutes but I try to break down where each revolver sits and what pros/cons each platform has. When I get enough rounds on the MR73 to have a real concrete opinion, I'll do an update.

Thanks. You, sir, are going to cost me money.

[jetfire]

Thanks. You, sir, are going to cost me money.

I'm good at that

[Wondering Beard]

Thanks. You, sir, are going to cost me money.

Enabler enabled :-)

[Stephanie B]

Thanks. You, sir, are going to cost me money.


Enabler enabled :-)

It's the Circle of Life, Revolver Ed. Another chapter of As the Cylinder Turns.

[Crazy Dane]

I actually did exactly that video minus the Manurhin a bit ago on GAT Daily's YouTube channel:


https://youtu.be/Lhk2Cp9Vubw

It's 17 minutes but I try to break down where each revolver sits and what pros/cons each platform has. When I get enough rounds on the MR73 to have a real concrete opinion, I'll do an update.


Great assessment! Thank you.

[Stephanie B]

Thanks. You, sir, are going to cost me money.


I'm good at that

Question: With that light of a trigger pull on your 686, will it reliably ignite all primers?

[jetfire]

Question: With that light of a trigger pull on your 686, will it reliably ignite all primers?

It has cracked all Federal, Speer, CCI, Winchester, and Hornady primers. I haven’t tried any other primers in that or its 586 L-Comp twin

[RAM Engineer]

What's the deal with the blowed up MR73?



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[Scal]

What's the deal with the blowed up MR73?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_8969

This was one of the guns that was used in the GIGN assault on the flight by Theirry Prungnaud, who killed two of the hostage takers with this MR73 while getting shot by an AK and getting lightly blown up by a grenade, which also damaged the gun.

[zeleny]

What's the deal with the blowed up MR73?On the day after Christmas of 1994, Captain Thierry Prungnaud of GIGN entered the hijacked Air France Flight 8969 plane, grounded at the Marseille airport. He served as the point shooter, armed with this 5¼" .357 Magnum Manurhin MR73 and backed by his partner Eric carrying a 9mm HK05 submachine gun. Prungnaud killed two Islamist terrorists and wounded a third with his revolver, before taking seven bullets from an AK47 fired by the fourth hijacker. In spite of then absorbing a full complement of grenade shrapnel in his lower body, Prungnaud survived the assault, as also did 171 hostages. Not so the four terrorists, who had been planning to deploy the plane as an incendiary missile against the Eiffel Tower.

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Thierry Prungnaud holds in his hands the miniature replica of the outfit he wore on the day of the assault on the Airbus.
(https://www.lanouvellerepublique.fr/vienne/commune/chateau-larcher/victimes-du-terrorisme-les-traumatismes-d-un-ancien-du-gign-dans-la-vienne)

More here (https://larvatus.livejournal.com/519794.html).

[jetfire]

I didn't win anything for this since it was just practice, but man can this gun shoot. Freestyle, 25 yards, double action only (because single action is for the physically infirm and people who suck at shooting), using Federal 130 grain FMJ ammo. That one 8 ruined an otherwise pretty decent group and it's still a 96. This gun definitely has a hundo in it. I bet if I used better ammo and maybe tuned the trigger a skosh...

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[revchuck38]

This gun definitely has a hundo in it. I bet if I used better ammo and maybe tuned the trigger a skosh...

You need to hold your mouth right. Your tongue was too far to the right; at one point you realized that and overcompensated and that gave you that 8.

[Tuvia]

because single action is for the physically infirm and people who suck at shooting)

Really, because I can shoot a 97 and I'm pretty sure You can't lift my gym bag.

[jetfire]

Really, because I can shoot a 97 and I'm pretty sure You can't lift my gym bag.

I shot a 99 with a DA revolver in a MSP/Jared Reston class, and unless your gym bag weighs 300 pounds I’m not worried.

Like I said, SA is for the physically infirm and people who suck at shooting

[willie]

For decades competitors in combat shooting matches used highly tuned .38 Spl revolvers with heavy barrels. Ammo was wadcutters. These heavy revolvers firing wadcutter ammo had negligible recoil. Many of the shooters were masters at double action shooting. From some of these I learned this technique. I got good at it but noticed something. When I switched to .41 and .44 magnum N frames using magnum ammo, I struggled to maintain my good double action shooting performance. I found that high volume shooting induced flinching and pain. It was not the technique but the recoil itself. So for hunting I reverted to single action shooting unless the target was a hog within 50 yards.

[jetfire]

Please don’t interpret my hyperbolic statements about performance based revolver shooting to be blanket statements that apply to all revolver shooting, since you know…hyperbole.

Jokes aren’t funny when you have to explain them

[Trooper224]

Please don’t interpret my hyperbolic statements about performance based revolver shooting to be blanket statements that apply to all revolver shooting, since you know…hyperbole.

Jokes aren’t funny when you have to explain them

You speak da tru tru.

However, for the sake of clarity, when you've shown yourself to be a punk on more than one occasion your attempts at humor can often resort in you coming off like a jackass, rather than a comedian.

[jetfire]

You speak da tru tru.

However, for the sake of clarity, when you've shown yourself to be a punk on more than one occasion your attempts at humor can often resort in you coming off like a jackass, rather than a comedian.

74359

[RevolverRob]

I shot a 99 with a DA revolver in a MSP/Jared Reston class, and unless your gym bag weighs 300 pounds I’m not worried.

Like I said, SA is for the physically infirm and people who suck at shooting

Well, I shot 112 out of 100 at the range in my mind. And my gym bag weighs 302 pounds.

So you're fucked. :p

[jetfire]

Well, I shot 112 out of 100 at the range in my mind. And my gym bag weighs 302 pounds.

So you're fucked. :p

son of a BITCH, welp time to retire

[farscott]

I cannot speak with any authority to the skills difference as to why almost everyone who shoots revolvers seriously shoots them almost exclusively in DA mode, but I can look at history. SA revolvers were invented first and decent DA revolvers came somewhat later. I am not aware of any LE or MIL organization that decided the SA revolver was better than the DA revolver. The SA revolver concept could (and was by S&W for some target revolvers) transferred to the Hand Ejector line, but once DA revolvers were a thing, the end of the SA revolver as a weapon was there. The DA revolver, not just the Hand Ejector, was an improvement.

So every organization that had a vested interest in killing people with revolvers chose DA revolvers over SA revolvers and mostly fired them in DA mode. Many were issued with either bobbed hammers or no SA sear. So almost all people who had a vested interest in gunfighting with revolvers chose DA revolvers. I am not aware of any organizations that issued Hand Ejectors with SAO triggers even though the SAO trigger is easier to master. Why that is is a good question. Part of it might be why this forum has a healthy respect for HK's LEM as there is a concern over shooting someone who does not need to be shot. The DA trigger, like the LEM trigger, is more forgiving of things like errors from being startled and provides a bit more of definitive action before launching a bullet that cannot be recalled.

[jetfire]

jetfire I don't think those agencies were DAO because it's necessarily better, they were DAO because of liability reasons. One famous LAPD shooting had the Sgt thumb cock his 4506 for a hostage shot.

I personally like Denny Reichard's idea that the single action is a nice option to have for a distance shot. I get what you're saying about double action being better for fast close work.

True, and in my research on the development of DAO autos (which I wrote up for RECOIL) I discovered that NYPD mandated DAO revolvers for liability reasons. There's an old training video of LASD from the 1930s shooting some single action as well; but by the 70s and 80s everything was DA. I will fully admit that there might have been a liability component to this, the old "hair trigger" action, and cultural differences between French and American tactical approaches could lead to different training modalities.

But the point was that regardless of why DA only was mandated, we have a huge pile of actual evidence from real world and competition shooting that shows that DA is not a disadvantage, just slightly harder to master, and once it's been mastered it does kind of render SA, well...pointless for any practical application of performance shooting.

[GJM]

Jerry likes DA at 1,000 yards. :D


https://youtu.be/jJ3XwizTqDw

[OlongJohnson]

More than one person has posted on this forum that they are generally at least as accurate shooting a pistol DA as they are shooting SA.

[BillSWPA]

I enjoy learning about these guns from everyone who has posted about them much more than I enjoy the personal attacks on each other. While I will not claim to possess the skill level that some here claim to possess or actually do possess, I am an occasional instructor who often works with people who are:

1) Novice shooters.

2) Minors as young as 10 years old.

3) Individuals with carpal tunnel syndrome.

4) Individuals with previous wrist injuries that make shooting more difficult.

5) Elderly individuals.

6) Individuals with small hands.

7) Other individuals with hand strength issues. For example, about 40% of the novice female shooters I have taken shooting for their first time had difficulty with triggers requiring 9 lb. or more of force.

I have spent an increasing amount of time working DA revolver triggers, and the benefit is clear for developing good trigger control. With a good quality revolver, it can be learned, and with practice, is not difficult. I have, on occasion, when shooting a high quality revolver, found that I could shoot better double action than single action.

However, for many shooters, single action shooting is the most appropriate way for them to develop their skills as well as to do much of their shooting.

If some of these shooters, who for whatever reason prefer or need to shoot single action, I would like for them to be able to come here, read and absorb the vast amount of information to be found here (including but not limited to the information posted by participants in this thread) without feeling like they are being ridiculed.

At a time when our right to continue doing what we do is under serious attack, the last think any of us should be doing is pushing people out of the fold.

I understand and appreciate the joke, but many might not see it the same way, and many of them might be people we should be trying not to offend.

[jetfire]

I enjoy learning about these guns from everyone who has posted about them much more than I enjoy the personal attacks on each other. While I will not claim to possess the skill level that some here claim to possess or actually do possess, I am an occasional instructor who often works with people who are:

1) Novice shooters.

2) Minors as young as 10 years old.

3) Individuals with carpal tunnel syndrome.

4) Individuals with previous wrist injuries that make shooting more difficult.

5) Elderly individuals.

6) Individuals with small hands.

7) Other individuals with hand strength issues. For example, about 40% of the novice female shooters I have taken shooting for their first time had difficulty with triggers requiring 9 lb. or more of force.

I have spent an increasing amount of time working DA revolver triggers, and the benefit is clear for developing good trigger control. With a good quality revolver, it can be learned, and with practice, is not difficult. I have, on occasion, when shooting a high quality revolver, found that I could shoot better double action than single action.

However, for many shooters, single action shooting is the most appropriate way for them to develop their skills as well as to do much of their shooting.

If some of these shooters, who for whatever reason prefer or need to shoot single action, I would like for them to be able to come here, read and absorb the vast amount of information to be found here (including but not limited to the information posted by participants in this thread) without feeling like they are being ridiculed.

At a time when our right to continue doing what we do is under serious attack, the last think any of us should be doing is pushing people out of the fold.

I understand and appreciate the joke, but many might not see it the same way, and many of them might be people we should be trying not to offend.

I'd like to think that most people are capable of grasping hyperbole, but this forum likes to continually prove my assumptions about people's sense of humor to be incorrect

[RevolverRob]

I enjoy learning about these guns from everyone who has posted about them much more than I enjoy the personal attacks on each other. While I will not claim to possess the skill level that some here claim to possess or actually do possess, I am an occasional instructor who often works with people who are:

1) Novice shooters.

2) Minors as young as 10 years old.

3) Individuals with carpal tunnel syndrome.

4) Individuals with previous wrist injuries that make shooting more difficult.

5) Elderly individuals.

6) Individuals with small hands.

7) Other individuals with hand strength issues. For example, about 40% of the novice female shooters I have taken shooting for their first time had difficulty with triggers requiring 9 lb. or more of force.

I understand and appreciate the joke, but many might not see it the same way, and many of them might be people we should be trying not to offend.

Then you can appreciate, that I found it hilariously ironic that the 7 examples you provided fall into the categories of "physically infirmed or suck at shooting" areas...

Bill, I always appreciate your posts here and I know it was unintentional...I can't think of a better post that illustrates that Caleb's point is both hyperbolic and yet has a serious grain of truth to it...:D

[Clusterfrack]

Maybe in 1988. I'd like to have a moderator split your GIGN stuff off into a different thread so it's not a distraction.

I've moved some posts to an existing GIGN thread (https://pistol-forum.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1243581). Since I couldn't know less about these topics, I hope I have selected the correct posts. Please PM me if I foxed things up.

[Paul D]

I didn't win anything for this since it was just practice, but man can this gun shoot. Freestyle, 25 yards, double action only (because single action is for the physically infirm and people who suck at shooting), using Federal 130 grain FMJ ammo. That one 8 ruined an otherwise pretty decent group and it's still a 96. This gun definitely has a hundo in it. I bet if I used better ammo and maybe tuned the trigger a skosh...

74337

Are there any characteristics to this gun that could be modified into a more readily available (and cheaper) Colt Python, S&W 686 or Ruger Match Champion? Or is it just pure intrinsic/organic accuracy, design and build quality that can't duplicated? BTW I loved your video on the Colt/Ruger/S&W comparison.

[willie]

Not long before I went to work for the Texas prison system, their pistol team won the National Championship. Each man was a magician with a double action revolver. I studied under two of these men. I soon learned that my double action shooting was more accurate than my single action shooting. The reason was better control of the weapon during firing. I learned how to maintain a constant grip and manipulate the trigger in the same fashion each time I pulled it. And I could perform this task repeatedly while staying on target. I will not say that there is no place for single action shooting in defense situations but will assert that double action technique satisfies these needs. While fooling around along stream or in field, I shoot double action unless I'm using an N frame in .41 or .44 and shooting at a game animal. Even with these revolvers, I sometimes will do stunt shooting by firing them double action at distant targets.

[RevolverRob]

Not long before I went to work for the Texas prison system, their pistol team won the National Championship. Each man was a magician with a double action revolver. I studied under two of these men. I soon learned that my double action shooting was more accurate than my single action shooting. The reason was better control of the weapon during firing. I learned how to maintain a constant grip and manipulate the trigger in the same fashion each time I pulled it. And I could perform this task repeatedly while staying on target. I will not say that there is no place for single action shooting in defense situations but will assert that double action technique satisfies these needs. While fooling around along stream or in field, I shoot double action unless I'm using an N frame in .41 or .44 and shooting at a game animal. Even with these revolvers, I sometimes will do stunt shooting by firing them double action at distant targets.

I have found something similar. In single action, I will fiddle around with my grip a lot. In DA, I am focused on working the trigger and futz with my grip a lot less.

I've noticed with Cowboy Action Shooters, who are generally a fair lot with a single action, tend to adopt a two-handed grip not unlike what most DA shooters use, except with the off hand thumb flagged up to run the hammer.

[pangloss]

I think the attraction to shooting revolvers in SA is a product of the autoloader world we live in. Today I watched a YouTube video with Taran Butler going on and on about the new Timney Glock triggers and how they have a wonderful two pound pull. It struck me as completely useless, but the industry conditions people to think that all good triggers are light triggers.


Sent from my moto e5 cruise using Tapatalk

[jetfire]

Are there any characteristics to this gun that could be modified into a more readily available (and cheaper) Colt Python, S&W 686 or Ruger Match Champion? Or is it just pure intrinsic/organic accuracy, design and build quality that can't duplicated? BTW I loved your video on the Colt/Ruger/S&W comparison.

Not really. There’s nothing particularly special about the design itself, where it gets costly is the component selection and extensive hand fitting/assembly. There’s legit like 5 dudes in a workshop in France making all of these, and that is not a cheap process.

[Half Moon]

Are there any characteristics to this gun that could be modified into a more readily available (and cheaper) Colt Python, S&W 686 or Ruger Match Champion? Or is it just pure intrinsic/organic accuracy, design and build quality that can't duplicated? BTW I loved your video on the Colt/Ruger/S&W comparison.

Sample of one but the MR73 feels a lot like a well tuned, fitted, and finished K frame. I think you could duplicate that. Granted I've only got a couple hundred rounds through the MR73 so far, but there are Smith and Wessons I've owned, particularly five screw models, I think would stack up to them for overall shootability. All bearing in mind, I'm not the shooter that can wing every scintilla of performance out of a revolver. The unknown that may not be replicatable is durability. Reputationally the MR73's can, and have, withstood full power.357 round counts that would have killed a Smith or Colt. With only a handful of rounds down range, mostly .38 wadcutters given current ammo supplies, I'm not even close to being able to form an opinion there and have to defer to reputation.

[03RN]

I think the attraction to shooting revolvers in SA is a product of the autoloader world we live in. Today I watched a YouTube video with Taran Butler going on and on about the new Timney Glock triggers and how they have a wonderful two pound pull. It struck me as completely useless, but the industry conditions people to think that all good triggers are light triggers.


Sent from my moto e5 cruise using Tapatalk

And with short resets

[entropy]

It’s all about pushing the latest gimmick.

[zeleny]

Not really. There’s nothing particularly special about the design itself, where it gets costly is the component selection and extensive hand fitting/assembly. There’s legit like 5 dudes in a workshop in France making all of these, and that is not a cheap process.I beg to differ. While the short action of the MR73 requires extra mainspring weight, it gains in ergonomics owing to the efficient construction of its rebound slide, based on a 1977 patent by Gilbert Maillard (https://patents.google.com/patent/US3965603?oq=3965603), summarized in this abstract:


Double action revolver having a slider with an opposing or withdrawing spring. The withdrawing spring of the rebounding slider is constituted by elastic arm of which one of the ends is fixed, and is maintained within the frame of the revolver, the other end of such spring being mobile and engaging a curved abutment surface connected to the slider, the point of engagement with said abutment surface varying as a function of the position of the slider in the frame. The slider is provided with rollers for rotation around two parallel axles and roll along a supporting plane surface provided in the frame.


74382

To simplify, the rebound slide of the MR73 moves back and forth on five rollers, propelled by a flat trigger spring externally adjustable for preload, rather than the small internal coil spring of the S&W. Four of the rollers serve to reduce the friction that impeded reciprocal motion, whereas the fifth roller bears on the end of the trigger return spring, to vary its mechanical advantage and stack the hammer-cocking leverage for a more linear double action trigger pull. In the course of pulling the trigger, the contact of the trigger return spring moves upwards on the central roller, with the horizontal component of the radial force exerted by the spring upon trigger through the rebound slide remaining constant throughout its travel. This arrangement is claimed to be optimal for a smooth and linear double action trigger stroke, ending in a sudden hammer release. Consequently, the trigger pull can be fine tuned on the MR73 by preloading the mainspring and the trigger return spring independently.

The trigger pull is set using a flat screwdriver regulating the screw (#62 in the above drawing) to preload the mainspring (#56) that tensions the hammer (#42). The goal here is to ensure reliable ignition with every kind of ammo. Once attained, the trigger spring (#110) on the rebound slide (#56 in the drawing below) is adjusted by turning its adjusting screw (#116) with an Allen key. The goal here is to make sure that the trigger resets after each shot.


74383

In this way, the double action trigger stroke can be readily adjusted externally, ranging between a light pull weighing under 7 lbs, and a heavier feel with a stronger reset allowing for a “live trigger” technique (https://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/gun-shots/2014/05/roll-revolver/) with faster cycling at a greater trigger cocking effort, as preferred e.g. by Jerry Miculek.

Tl;dr: A linear double action pull adjustable externally is a design feature of the Manurhin MR73, unmatched by any other revolver.

[MandoWookie]

Tl;dr: A linear double action pull adjustable externally is a design feature of the Manurhin MR73, unmatched by any other revolver.[/QUOTE]

While that is neat, it seems it just incorporates into the design what on other guns requires custom work to achieve. Once set to preference, I doubt most users would change it.
Does this one feature justify the cost difference between this and other options with custom work included? Especially if the cost is still less for the custom work included.

[jetfire]

I beg to differ.

K.

But u wrong tho

[zeleny]

K.

But u wrong thoJerry Moran agrees with me. But surely gamers trump gunsmiths in gun design.

[jetfire]

Jerry Moran agrees with me. But surely gamers trump gunsmiths in gun design.

You keep saying “gamer” like it’s supposed to be an insult in a thread that is quite proudly about gaming. Weird.

[Jim Watson]

Jerry Moran agrees with me. But surely gamers trump gunsmiths in gun design.

Back in the day, I kept hearing about how great and wonderful Jerry Moran was, he must be better than Don Tedford or Reeves Jungkind. So I bought an extra gun and got on his waiting list. And waited and waited. If I inquired he would remind me that patience is a virtue. After several years, it was no reminders at all. I later read in a gunzine that he had changed specialties from revolvers to single shots.

[RevolverRob]

This is like the old joke about the engineer and the airplane pilot:

Pilot: Autopilot in altitude-hold mode produces a 200 feet per minute descent.
Engineers: Cannot reproduce problem on ground.

___

[Tuvia]

I
shot a 99 with a DA revolver in a MSP/Jared Reston class, and unless your gym bag weighs 300 pounds I’m not worried.

Like I said, SA is for the physically infirm and people who suck at shooting


Well I don't think a 97 sucks but to each their own. 99 is really good shooting and I am happy for you. I have been weight lifting for over 30 years and after taking a look at you there is no way you could could even come close to lifting 300 pounds and it's still really doubtful that you could lift anyone's gym bag.

[JRB]

jetfire have you gotten around to modifying this MR73 yet? If so, I'd love to see some pictures and hear about your thought process behind it all.

I'm also surprised that we've not brought up putting an RMR or HE509T on this thing yet.

[Hambo]

I guess the ammo shortage hit them too, hence the use of .38SP +P. And is no eyepro for either participant the norm there? Just a couple of piddly little quips I noticed.

You watch a video of a dude shooting another dude in the chest, and you're worried about eye pro.

[Half Moon]

You watch a video of a dude shooting another dude in the chest, and you're worried about eye pro.

It's all fun and games, until someone loses an eye :-P

[jetfire]

jetfire have you gotten around to modifying this MR73 yet? If so, I'd love to see some pictures and hear about your thought process behind it all.

I'm also surprised that we've not brought up putting an RMR or HE509T on this thing yet.

Not yet, I have a with BUSA next week about it since we want to table talk product improvements before I start chopping bits off the gun. I'm also leaving the red dots on the table for now, if I do that it makes it illegal for most competitions, and since part of the deal is testing this thing by plunging into the abyss of shooting sport based scientific research, I gotta keep it legal for the matches.

[Erik]

What's in these fucking gym bags anyway?

[BehindBlueI's]

What's in these fucking gym bags anyway?

Grocery bags contain groceries and book bags contain books, so I would assume they contain gyms. Little ones, mind you.

(I hereby officially sanction myself, as this is allegedly a technical topic but I'm more and more convinced it's a GD topic.)

[OlongJohnson]

What's in these fucking gym bags anyway?

Do you really want to know? I don't think you really want to know.

[willie]

Somebody said something about design as if it were not important. Compare different revolver brands. Some are better suited for double action shooting than others. K frame Smiths reign supreme in this regard. I wish I had two of these high dollar French revolvers. Then I would be the forum expert until somebody else bought three.

[zeleny]

You keep saying “gamer” like it’s supposed to be an insult in a thread that is quite proudly about gaming. Weird.You made a technical claim:
Not really. There’s nothing particularly special about the design itself, where it gets costly is the component selection and extensive hand fitting/assembly. There’s legit like 5 dudes in a workshop in France making all of these, and that is not a cheap process.I refuted it with a detailed discussion of the MR73 design (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?48814-Winning-with-the-Manurhin&p=1243861#post1243861) based on Gilbert Maillard’s patent (https://patents.google.com/patent/US3965603?oq=3965603). None of your impressive gaming experience qualifies you as a technical authority capable of trumping documentary evidence with your emphatic say-so. Deal with it.

[zeleny]

Somebody said something about design as if it were not important. Compare different revolver brands. Some are better suited for double action shooting than others. K frame Smiths reign supreme in this regard. I wish I had two of these high dollar French revolvers. Then I would be the forum expert until somebody else bought three.I have five, plus many more in corporate inventory.

[willie]

Then Zeleny is the expert!

[MandoWookie]

I have five, plus many more in corporate inventory.

What do you mean by corporate inventory?

[Jim Watson]

He means he is a dealer.

[Stephanie B]

This is like the old joke about the engineer and the airplane pilot:

Pilot: Autopilot in altitude-hold mode produces a 200 feet per minute descent.
Engineers: Cannot reproduce problem on ground.



Gripe: Lost #3 engine in flight
Resolution: Found #3 engine still on the wing.

Gripe: Mice in cockpit.
Resolution. Cat installed.

Gripe: Evidence of leak on right main gear.
Resolution: Evidence removed.

Gripe: Suspect that left windshield is developing a crack.
Resolution: Suspicion confirmed.

Gripe: Autoland is rough.
Resolution: Autoland isn't installed on this airplane.

[awp_101]

What's in these fucking gym bags anyway?

74467



(I hereby officially sanction myself, as this is allegedly a technical topic but I'm more and more convinced it's a GD topic.)
Since your handing out them there sanctions might as well send one my way but FFS this is turning into the 1911 forum 20+ page thread on what does a barrel link do.

[willie]

I might start an argument about gun oil to derail the thread.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

You ever get that jersey done up?

If it's still on the drawing board, as a former resident of Montreal and a fan of multi-layered, surreal, confusing jokes, I would like to put forth this suggestion:

"jupe plissee dans la rue"

[03RN]

You made a technical claim:I refuted it with a detailed discussion of the MR73 design (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?48814-Winning-with-the-Manurhin&p=1243861#post1243861) based on Gilbert Maillard’s patent (https://patents.google.com/patent/US3965603?oq=3965603). None of your impressive gaming experience qualifies you as a technical authority capable of trumping documentary evidence with your emphatic say-so. Deal with it.

"Tl;dr: A linear double action pull adjustable externally is a design feature of the Manurhin MR73, unmatched by any other revolver."

For the defense shooter and gamer... So what? I don't want my trigger pull to be externally adjustable.

[zeleny]

"Tl;dr: A linear double action pull adjustable externally is a design feature of the Manurhin MR73, unmatched by any other revolver."

For the defense shooter and gamer... So what? I don't want my trigger pull to be externally adjustable.Read the patent. “A linear double action pull adjustable externally” refers to two design features. The first one is by far more important.

[revchuck38]

I think if we looked up "fanboy" in the dictionary, zeleny would be the illustration. :)

[Clusterfrack]

Grocery bags contain groceries and book bags contain books, so I would assume they contain gyms. Little ones, mind you.

(I hereby officially sanction myself, as this is allegedly a technical topic but I'm more and more convinced it's a GD topic.)

Trying to respond to yet another reported post from this thread... I'm tempted to move this whole mess to General Discussion. Honestly, I can't figure out what this thread is about.

[Joe in PNG]

Trying to respond to yet another reported post from this thread... I'm tempted to move this whole mess to General Discussion. Honestly, I can't figure out what this thread is about.

I was hoping to see Caleb document his experiences with using a Manurin in heavy revolver competition- which would be cool.
Then a fanboi showed up...

[Clusterfrack]

I was hoping to see Caleb document his experiences with using a Manurin in heavy revolver competition- which would be cool.
Then a fanboi showed up...

Maybe that should be in a thread titled Caleb documents his experiences with using a Manurin? I can't see a reason that Zeleny shouldn't comment on the technical aspects of these things in a Revolver sub-forum. HOWEVER, most of the posts from many people seem more like a daycare toddler fight before nap time.

[Clusterfrack]

Ok after a brief staff huddle, we've decided to move this thread to General Discussion. Some level of friendly bullshitting seems ok in any thread. Otherwise we would lose the community feel of the forum and the Mods would have to act like nazis. But for technical discussions, there's a line, and I hope everyone can see that we've crossed it.

Carry on...

[Ed L]

Well, since it is in General Discussion I can post this directed at jetfire:

Ha ha! You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - the most famous of which is "never get involved in a land war in Asia" - but only slightly less well-known is this:

74487

[RevolverRob]

Next time jetfire do a thread in the competition technical forum on shooting aspects and when you do the post-match inspection on the gun.

[RJ]

Ok after a brief staff huddle, we've decided to move this thread to General Discussion. Some level of friendly bullshitting seems ok in any thread. Otherwise we would lose the community feel of the forum and the Mods would have to act like nazis. But for technical discussions, there's a line, and I hope everyone can see that we've crossed it.

Carry on...

74490

[willie]

I think if we looked up "fanboy" in the dictionary, zeleny would be the illustration. :)

Z has 5 of these things. Soon I will contact him to send me one so I can write an article. I write slowly. :cool:

[jetfire]

Well now that this in GD, there’s nothing in the Manurhin’s design that couldn’t be done more efficiently by using modern parts sourcing and manufacturing methods, based on my 15+ years of actual consulting with product development in the gun industry.

I love it because it’s still made like it’s 1973, but it’s 2021 and the design isn’t particularly special from an engineering standpoint. It could be reproduced more efficiently using modern methods and parts.

[revchuck38]

I love it because it’s still made like it’s 1973, but it’s 2021 and the design isn’t particularly special from an engineering standpoint. It could be reproduced more efficiently using modern methods and parts.

Yeah, but the more efficiently produced one wouldn't be as cool. :)

[Hot Sauce]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_8969

This was one of the guns that was used in the GIGN assault on the flight by Theirry Prungnaud, who killed two of the hostage takers with this MR73 while getting shot by an AK and getting lightly blown up by a grenade, which also damaged the gun.

One of the most hilarious turns of phrase I've ever read on here. ;)

[willie]

Well now that this in GD, there’s nothing in the Manurhin’s design that couldn’t be done more efficiently by using modern parts sourcing and manufacturing methods, based on my 15+ years of actual consulting with product development in the gun industry.

I love it because it’s still made like it’s 1973, but it’s 2021 and the design isn’t particularly special from an engineering standpoint. It could be reproduced more efficiently using modern methods and parts.

The dude has quit preaching and gone to meddling as the old lady said about the preacher.:D

[zeleny]

Well, since it is in General Discussion I can post this directed at jetfire:

Ha ha! You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - the most famous of which is "never get involved in a land war in Asia" - but only slightly less well-known is this:

74487My bad. I thought everyone got the 1994 memo. With due deference to Robert Neville’s dying thought, I Am Usenet Legend.

In my defense, I submit that winning an argument against me is piss easy. Stick to what you know, employ logic, and back it with evidence. As Osgood Fielding III wisely observed, nobody’s perfect. Sooner or later I’ll say something stupid, which you can demolish with data and reason. And I promise to acknowledge your victory.

[Ed L]

My bad. I thought everyone got the 1994 memo. With due deference to Robert Neville’s dying thought, I Am Usenet Legend.

In my defense, I submit that winning an argument against me is piss easy. Stick to what you know, employ logic, and back it with evidence. As Osgood Fielding III wisely observed, nobody’s perfect. Sooner or later I’ll say something stupid, which you can demolish with data and reason. And I promise to acknowledge your victory.

I'm just joking with you.

[Hambo]

there's a line, and I hope everyone can see that we've crossed it.

OK, Walter.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vB9U2hx6Qg

[jh9]

Yeah, but the more efficiently produced one wouldn't be as cool. :)

Right? "How to turn a Manurhin into a S&W" is boring.

The panache is the point. It isn't supposed to be eminently practical. Try to make it so is nonsense. Practical is "get a Glock" not "make a more cost efficient, full-size 6-shot revolver in 2021".

[OlongJohnson]

Well now that this in GD, there’s nothing in the Manurhin’s design that couldn’t be done more efficiently by using modern parts sourcing and manufacturing methods, based on my 15+ years of actual consulting with product development in the gun industry.

I love it because it’s still made like it’s 1973, but it’s 2021 and the design isn’t particularly special from an engineering standpoint. It could be reproduced more efficiently using modern methods and parts.

I absolutely agree. But... woulda-coulda-shoulda.

We can't even get S&W and Ruger to un-f themselves and actually build guns that are as good as they are designed to be. And why should they? S&W just had the first billion-dollar year by a small-arms company. So until some enterprising capitalist steps up to build the Tikka of revolvers, we're stuck with hand-selecting guns that can be brought into serviceable condition and returning them to the factory as many times as necessary to get them un-f'ed. Or buying Manurhins and Korths.

[Jim Watson]

Well now that this in GD, there’s nothing in the Manurhin’s design that couldn’t be done more efficiently by using modern parts sourcing and manufacturing methods, based on my 15+ years of actual consulting with product development in the gun industry.

I love it because it’s still made like it’s 1973, but it’s 2021 and the design isn’t particularly special from an engineering standpoint. It could be reproduced more efficiently using modern methods and parts.

They tried to "modernize" in 1993 and 1996. Not many of those to be found on the street.

[jetfire]

Right? "How to turn a Manurhin into a S&W" is boring.

The panache is the point. It isn't supposed to be eminently practical. Try to make it so is nonsense. Practical is "get a Glock" not "make a more cost efficient, full-size 6-shot revolver in 2021".

Exactly. The Manurhin is interesting partly because it’s like a time machine, and also because it really does work quite remarkably well.

[RevolverRob]

These Manurhin threads are a lot more interesting when certain people are on ignore. A lot more informative too.

[Ed L]

Hopefully I will be wrong with this prediction:

74510

[Joe in PNG]

Of course, Purdy or Holland & Holland could also go full modern as well, but where's the fun in that?

[RJ]

It's 17 minutes but I try to break down where each revolver sits and what pros/cons each platform has. When I get enough rounds on the MR73 to have a real concrete opinion, I'll do an update.

Thanks, I finally got a chance to watch this. Couple follow ups?

You mentioned the Colt Python as your "second favorite" revolver; what is the favorite, if you don't mind my asking?

Second, would you change your opinion of the Ruger if you had a regular GP100 vs. the Match Champion? It doesn't seem like the price difference is all that much; so hypothetically speaking, if I (being a casual tinkerer) bought a Ruger it would seem like it makes sense to buy a Match Champion over a "normal" GP100?

[Jim Watson]

Of course, Purdy or Holland & Holland could also go full modern as well, but where's the fun in that?

Beretta has bought up Holland's. Wonder if that will affect operations and products. I had heard of a Holland's- Beretta years ago, so they were already in cahoots.

[Jared]

Thanks, I finally got a chance to watch this. Couple follow ups?

You mentioned the Colt Python as your "second favorite" revolver; what is the favorite, if you don't mind my asking?

Second, would you change your opinion of the Ruger if you had a regular GP100 vs. the Match Champion? It doesn't seem like the price difference is all that much; so hypothetically speaking, if I (being a casual tinkerer) bought a Ruger it would seem like it makes sense to buy a Match Champion over a "normal" GP100?

I’ve owned a few samples of both and all I can say is:

Yes, but the Match Champion. Unless you really want a 7 shot. Or you want a barrel length not offered in MC format. If you just want a current production, 4” barreled, medium frame, 357 magnum revolver; it’s gonna be damn hard to beat the MC.

[jetfire]

Thanks, I finally got a chance to watch this. Couple follow ups?

You mentioned the Colt Python as your "second favorite" revolver; what is the favorite, if you don't mind my asking?

Second, would you change your opinion of the Ruger if you had a regular GP100 vs. the Match Champion? It doesn't seem like the price difference is all that much; so hypothetically speaking, if I (being a casual tinkerer) bought a Ruger it would seem like it makes sense to buy a Match Champion over a "normal" GP100?

Out of the box, the deadass nicest revolver I have ever shot in terms of accuracy and trigger pull is marvelous, bonkers, unhinged Chiappa Rhino Match Master. I wrote it up for SI (https://www.shootingillustrated.com/articles/2020/9/18/review-chiappa-rhino-match-master-6)

RE: the Ruger. I bought a non-MC Ruger recently and it was kind of a mess. It needed a lot more work to get it where I want a revolver to be than I need to put into any of the MC guns I have.

[OlongJohnson]

I sent a blued Ruger down the road when I got serious about how much work was needed de-burring and de-sharpening edges, and due to it being a blued gun, the resulting situation of living with cold blue touch up forever or getting it reblued, which would cost way too much to make sense. I was also annoyed that the dovetail for the Novak front sight was machined in a way that Novak's site says is seriously incorrect, as have been all the Novak-front-sight Rugers I've inspected, and there was no way to fix that without a new barrel that Ruger hasn't already mismachined. You're not getting one of those from Ruger, so you would have to have it made. All told, unkittening it would likely easily have added up to something close to the cost of a Manurhin. At least if you start with a stainless Ruger, you can skip the bluing issues, and then it might kinda make sense.

[RevolverRob]

I sent a blued Ruger down the road when I got serious about how much work was needed de-burring and de-sharpening edges, and due to it being a blued gun, the resulting situation of living with cold blue touch up forever or getting it reblued, which would cost way too much to make sense. I was also annoyed that the dovetail for the Novak front sight was machined in a way that Novak's site says is seriously incorrect, as have been all the Novak-front-sight Rugers I've inspected, and there was no way to fix that without a new barrel that Ruger hasn't already mismachined. You're not getting one of those from Ruger, so you would have to have it made. All told, unkittening it would likely easily have added up to something close to the cost of a Manurhin. At least if you start with a stainless Ruger, you can skip the bluing issues, and then it might kinda make sense.

Match Champion have similar issues? jetfire

[zeleny]

Well now that this in GD, there’s nothing in the Manurhin’s design that couldn’t be done more efficiently by using modern parts sourcing and manufacturing methods, based on my 15+ years of actual consulting with product development in the gun industry.

I love it because it’s still made like it’s 1973, but it’s 2021 and the design isn’t particularly special from an engineering standpoint. It could be reproduced more efficiently using modern methods and parts.This sort of thing has been done many times over. Prominent American examples include SIG-Sauer’s P210A and Remington’s R51. In the EU, the Bundesanzeiger shows Korth Lollar earning a profit by selling modernized imitations of Ratzeburg originals invariably produced at a loss, whereas Manurhin gave up on firearms manufacture following a similar attempt with the MR93.

[zeleny]

I'm just joking with you.You don’t say.

[RJ]

I’ve owned a few samples of both and all I can say is:

Yes, but the Match Champion. Unless you really want a 7 shot. Or you want a barrel length not offered in MC format. If you just want a current production, 4” barreled, medium frame, 357 magnum revolver; it’s gonna be damn hard to beat the MC.

Thanks, yeah somehow in my lizard brain world a revolver must have six rounds, so seven would be weird. The one I am looking at is a model 1754 with a 4.2" barrel.

74533


I sent a blued Ruger down the road when I got serious about how much work was needed de-burring and de-sharpening edges, and due to it being a blued gun, the resulting situation of living with cold blue touch up forever or getting it reblued, which would cost way too much to make sense. I was also annoyed that the dovetail for the Novak front sight was machined in a way that Novak's site says is seriously incorrect, as have been all the Novak-front-sight Rugers I've inspected, and there was no way to fix that without a new barrel that Ruger hasn't already mismachined. You're not getting one of those from Ruger, so you would have to have it made. All told, unkittening it would likely easily have added up to something close to the cost of a Manurhin. At least if you start with a stainless Ruger, you can skip the bluing issues, and then it might kinda make sense.

See above. :cool:

This would be my first handgun purchase "just because". I like the look of Ruger revolvers, for a variety of reasons. I was gifted a Ruger stainless convertible in .38/9mm, and shot it for a while, but in the end because:reasons I gave it back. Sometime in the distant past, I was living on a family farm at the time, and the household had what I am almost positive was a Ruger "Security Six" revolver that I shot a few times. It was fun. And of course I have had an LCR as a BUG for quite a while now, which I really like.

And emotionally, there's something about the whole shooting experience is just...cool. A stainless revolver appeals to some small part of my brain that likes shiny, heavy, mechanical contraptions. Kinda like I am attracted to old steam trains (I'm probably not explaining this well.)

Anyway, thanks for letting me drift the thread a bit.

[OlongJohnson]

Match Champion have similar issues? jetfire

My MC was basically the same, but because I could touch it with tools and not have to reblue the spot, it was feasible to fix. It came out quite nicely, in fact. Nobody just looking at it would think, "Oh, that's been all worked over," but handling it is like a different gun.

And @RJ, don't forget the elevation-adjustable version of that rear sight you can get from Novak.

[RevolverRob]

My MC was basically the same, but because I could touch it with tools and not have to reblue the spot, it was feasible to fix. It came out quite nicely, in fact. Nobody just looking at it would think, "Oh, that's been all worked over," but handling it is like a different gun.

And @RJ, don't forget the elevation-adjustable version of that rear sight you can get from Novak.

Same issues with the front sight? I'm planning to convert virtually every fullsize gun I use regularly to a gold line front sight in a Novak cut.

[jetfire]

Match Champion have similar issues? jetfire

My Super GP100 (the 8 shot 9mm) needed a trip to Cylinder and Slide to correct a gnarly issue with the reset where, well it wouldn't reset sometimes. Sort of a problem in the middle of a stage to suddenly get a dead trigger. That being said, this is the 5th Match Champion/Custom Shop Ruger I've owned, and the first one to have problems out of the box. While it didn't entirely put me off on Rugers, it did make me rethink my "Ruger before S&W" policy a bit.

[OlongJohnson]

Same issues with the front sight? I'm planning to convert virtually every fullsize gun I use regularly to a gold line front sight in a Novak cut.

Yes. (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?22586-GP100-Match-Champion-sight-options&p=687475&viewfull=1#post687475)

I think the gap on the Lipsey's 5-inch was actually a little worse.

[RevolverRob]

Yes. (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?22586-GP100-Match-Champion-sight-options&p=687475&viewfull=1#post687475)

I think the gap on the Lipsey's 5-inch was actually a little worse.

Is the dovetail mis-sized or is it the sight blades are under cut to leave the gap?

If it's the latter, no big deal, because I'll be fabricating my front sights from blanks, so it's easy enough to fit them tight. If it's the dovetail that's cut incorrectly that's going to require remachining and that's a pain in the ass.

[OlongJohnson]

I assume Novak makes the sights the way they always do.

The sights fit snugly in the dovetail, they just sit too high. Which means the dovetail is cut at the wrong height in the barrel. And you can't really remachine it, because lowering the bottom of the cut brings the sides together; you can't machine metal back onto the tapers. The only way to get it right would be to custom machine a dovetail and sight blade to fit, or else start over with a new barrel that doesn't have a dovetail yet.

[Crazy Dane]

Same issues with the front sight? I'm planning to convert virtually every fullsize gun I use regularly to a gold line front sight in a Novak cut.


On my 3".44 I used a Novak cut from Dawson's and do not have the gap. https://dawsonprecision.com/novak-cut-black-front-sights/

I complained to Ruger about the gap on my 5" and they sent me a gold bead front which fixed 95% of the gap. It went from getting a match book cover under it to a sheet of copier paper is a tight fit.

There is a small gap on my WC model but I feel its not enough to worry about.

[Jared]

Thanks, yeah somehow in my lizard brain world a revolver must have six rounds, so seven would be weird. The one I am looking at is a model 1754 with a 4.2" barrel.

74533



See above. :cool:

This would be my first handgun purchase "just because". I like the look of Ruger revolvers, for a variety of reasons. I was gifted a Ruger stainless convertible in .38/9mm, and shot it for a while, but in the end because:reasons I gave it back. Sometime in the distant past, I was living on a family farm at the time, and the household had what I am almost positive was a Ruger "Security Six" revolver that I shot a few times. It was fun. And of course I have had an LCR as a BUG for quite a while now, which I really like.

And emotionally, there's something about the whole shooting experience is just...cool. A stainless revolver appeals to some small part of my brain that likes shiny, heavy, mechanical contraptions. Kinda like I am attracted to old steam trains (I'm probably not explaining this well.)

Anyway, thanks for letting me drift the thread a bit.

@RJ

I have two of that exact model of the MC, unmodified except one has rubber Hogue no finger groove grips and one has the factory stocks.

74557

Here’s a HiTS Revolver Super Test I shot with a standard GP that I no longer have. I normally get a few more points with a Match Champion but for some reason can’t find a pic of a target right now with one of the MCs.

[jetfire]

Everyone here knows The Test, right? 10 shots, 10 yards, 10 seconds? Here's the test with the MR73 with a reload. 92 points in like 7 seconds and change.

It's on FB and I can't embed FB videos anymore or something which sucks, here's the link (https://www.facebook.com/100060933588566/videos/558067458706591)

[RevolverRob]

Everyone here knows The Test, right? 10 shots, 10 yards, 10 seconds? Here's the test with the MR73 with a reload. 92 points in like 7 seconds and change.

Ehhh...do better. :eek: ;)

Solid shooting. You slowed down to get your 4-shot count post-reload. I wonder if doing 4, reload, 6, would improve your time overall and perhaps your score.

What's your average when shooting a 5-shooter like the LCRX 3"?

One downside of The Test is it really is driven by capacity and 5, reload, 5 makes it easier to go full send.

[jetfire]

Ehhh...do better. :eek: ;)

Solid shooting. You slowed down to get your 4-shot count post-reload. I wonder if doing 4, reload, 6, would improve your time overall and perhaps your score.

What's your average when shooting a 5-shooter like the LCRX 3"?

One downside of The Test is it really is driven by capacity and 5, reload, 5 makes it easier to go full send.

I don't think I've ever run it with the LCR actually, the reload with those little guns is super awful.

[R89074]

I bought a MR73 target and have only shot it a few times. I like the Trausch grips, my hand fit them. After 3 short shooting sessions I adjusted the trigger now 2.7 pound single and 7.4 double action. My trips have been more about learning the gun and I have been satisfied.
https://i.imgur.com/8KppVYl.jpg
This is my first target at 10 yards using 38 special 158 grain round nose shoot double action. I started high and worked my way down, had to screw the rear sight down a little.
https://i.imgur.com/03RPcir.jpg
This i my sons first try 6 rounds 7 yards double action.

[jetfire]

So while I was on my self-imposed two-ish week sabbatical from PF, I won another match with the MR73, this time the Hoosier Daddy (yes that's the name) Regional in Sturgis, Michigan. Notes: match was dope, gun was dope, there was another revolver shooter on my squad, sadly I was the only Master there. Neat trophy though.

Weirdly: this is the second match in a row where Federal 130gr FMJ (American Eagle) has chronographed way hotter than the factory specifications. I've had now consistent readings of over 920 FPS on this ammo through the MR73 over traditional chronos and a Labradar.

And even more fun: here's the drag ring on the MR73 after less than a thousand rounds. It gives me great joy to actually shoot these guns instead of putting them in a glass box.

75398

[Jim Watson]

I didn't think that looked very Old World Craftsmanlike , but I went and checked. All my DA revolvers, MR73 included, have 360 degree drag rings. My CAS SAAs don't

[Trooper224]

I didn't think that looked very Old World Craftsmanlike , but I went and checked. All my DA revolvers, MR73 included, have 360 degree drag rings. My CAS SAAs don't

If your SAA has a 360 degree drag ring something's out of time and worn. Different animal entirely.

[Jim Watson]

Yes, I just didn't realize DAs weren't timed. Never had looked.

[Trooper224]

Yes, I just didn't realize DAs weren't timed. Never had looked.

They are timed. A 360 degree ring doesn't come from firing, as the bolt is timed to drop into the notch leads. The ring comes from closing the cylinder and manualing turning it until it locks. It's not an issue, it's a "feature".

[Jim Watson]

I dug out my dryfire kit and dropped in some moonclips. Sometimes I had the cylinder lined up but missed enough to have left a drag ring with use. Interesting, the drag ring was heaviest close to the stop notch, indicating I usually get close. But the ring is uniform on speedloader guns.

[jetfire]

I've been TDY working for Uncle Sam since April, so it's been a little harder to get the round count on the MR73 that I'd like, but it hit over 1000 last night and showing no signs of going out of time, despite the majority of the shooting being like this:


https://youtu.be/wstkiNqxoaw

I also started shooting ICORE classifiers again, and I'm now within 3% of an M-card having put up one okay score last night. If I can hundo my next run, I'll be at almost 90%, which will feel REALLY good.

75569

After a thousand rounds, I obviously like this gun. I haven't been home long enough where my workshop is to Dremel the hammer spur off, but that's actually dropped down my list of priorities, because this gun is fucking begging me for a high visibility front sight. It needs a brass bead or a green fiber optic or SOMETHING because this target front sight is balls for speed shooting.

[zeleny]

I didn't think that looked very Old World Craftsmanlike , but I went and checked. All my DA revolvers, MR73 included, have 360 degree drag rings. My CAS SAAs don'tAs I explained (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?48254-Korth-Limited-Edition/page5) in this forum, starting with the 37XXX series, the Ratzeburg Korth action is timed to drop the bolt into the lead of the cylinder notch, minimizing the likelihood of developing a cylinder ring. This feature reflects only the attention to fit during assembly. It is withheld from most series production double action revolvers as a cost-cutting measure.

[OlongJohnson]

...this gun is fucking begging me for a high visibility front sight. It needs a brass bead or a green fiber optic or SOMETHING because this target front sight is balls for speed shooting.

White paint, orange paint. Or nail polish. Walmart is open 24 hours.

[jetfire]

White paint, orange paint. Or nail polish. Walmart is open 24 hours.

I haven't set foot in a Walmart in several years now, and have no intention of breaking that streak.

That being said, I've thought about the paint option more than once. The problem with the sight is that it's a big ol' fatty front sight, really well suited for target shooting, but not exactly optimal for speed shooting. I actually like black-on-black sights for action pistol, and have used Sevigny/Warren sights very well on semi-autos for some time. The "best" solution for this sight would be a much thinner profile front sight with a small FO. Lacking that, I'd accept the fatty FO that you get on the Match Champion guns.

[OlongJohnson]

At least it's pinned so a good smith can work on it without risking irreversible change to the gun itself.

[jetfire]

At least it's pinned so a good smith can work on it without risking irreversible change to the gun itself.

Yeah, I have thought about asking Manurhin to send me a replacement and then drilling that out for a fiber myself since I've got the set up. But again, that would require me to be not actively engaged in teaching people how to not shoot themselves in the leg for Uncle Sam

[jetfire]

Things have been a little quiet on the MR73 front as global events have found me a little busier than usual trying to teach people to not shoot themselves; and then I took a week of leave for my wife's birthday. However, I was able to knock out one of my bucket list accomplishments: making Master in ICORE Classic division. I shot a 95% on CS-048 which was enough to bump me up to 88% and land me in the middle of M-class.

76510

The last match I have scheduled in this fiscal year is the 2021 Flag City Challenge in Ohio. I'm shooting this in lieu of IDPA Nationals, because I don't have the spare leave days necessary to make it to Nats this year, which is sad.

Then we get into October, and I'll not longer be full time in the vile clutches of Uncle Sam, and I'm kind of at a loss what to do. That's sort of the shooting off-season so there aren't a lot of traveling matches, and TBH I've been gone since April so I wouldn't mind spending some time at home.

November is locked down, I'll be attending the revolver roundup at Gunsite, and then it's the holidays. The Revolver Roundup should be awesome, this is Darryl Bolke's annual wheelgun class, and it will be my first time back to Gunsite since 2012 I think.