Donald Rumsfeld Has Died

[Chance]

From The Wall Street Journal (https://www.wsj.com/articles/donald-rumsfeld-architect-of-invasions-of-iraq-and-afghanistan-dies-at-88-11625082427):


Donald Rumsfeld, the architect of the U.S. invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq and an advocate of measures to streamline and modernize the American military, has died.

Mr. Rumsfeld, who was 88 years old, was the only person to serve two different times as defense secretary, becoming the country’s youngest leader of the Pentagon in 1975 and one of the oldest when he returned to the job in 2001.

His death in Taos, N.M., was announced Wednesday by his family. The cause of death was multiple myeloma, said Keith Urbahn, Mr. Rumsfeld’s spokesman.

I was in high school during much of Rumsfeld's second tenure as SecDef and was never really sure what to make of the guy. I thought The Unknown Known (https://www.amazon.com/Known-Donald-Rumsfeld/dp/B00JGMJXPG/ref=tmm_aiv_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1625106458&sr=8-3) was a very revealing look at the man behind all the press briefing sparring matches.

[TGS]

Duffelblog:

Donald Rumsfeld Refuses To Live In A World Without War In Afghanistan (https://www.duffelblog.com/p/donald-rumsfeld-refuses-to-live-in?fbclid=IwAR0nNh4H-rvE7P6FfWSn3Kjhq0bLF-CTtXL6hwXST7IA4IGOhQTtXQ1ti-k)


“He couldn’t take it, not after what they did to the Iraq War, too,” said friend and former Vice President Dick Cheney. “No father wants to outlive his children.”

[Coal Train]

It was always spooky how much he seemed like a twin of Robert McNamara. Slicked backed hair, glasses, attitude, not to the war.

[okie john]

Still worth reading/heeding: https://planetpdf.com/planetpdf/pdfs/rumsfeldsrules.pdf


Okie John

[Stephanie B]

73714

[Oldherkpilot]

I guess I can stop hoping to run into him in a dark alley some night.

[Totem Polar]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EE78e19jMgc

[Casual Friday]

Like RBG kicking the bucket, one of you guys will have to mourn him in my place. Of course I won't catch hell for saying that about Rummy like I did over her.

[Stephanie B]

Another one a friend sent me. We disagree on almost everything, except this.

73721

[okie john]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EE78e19jMgc

I never understood the hilarity that ensued after Secretary Rumsfeld made these remarks.

Most of it came from the media, who think they know about information, secrets, and lies. Compared to intelligence agencies in war time—which is what he was talking about—they’re barely single-cell organisms.

Intelligence agencies aren't looking at whether Britney Spears should be able to spend her own money. They deal with information about extremely smart, creative, vicious people who will die if their activities are discovered or even suspected. Those people are well trained at deceiving anyone looking into those activities and will kill anyone who gets too close to the truth. Intel agencies have oceans of this information coming at them every second. They have to decide what’s true, what’s deception, and what’s so freaking bizarre that it can barely be understood on its face—then prove or disprove it, then figure out what to do with it. And the fate of millions could depend on whether they get it right.

Known knowns and known unknowns are a straightforward inventory of the situation. Unknown knowns and unknown unknowns are the things that matter. Who ever would have thought that Osama bin Laden had been living in the Pakistani equivalent of West Point for several years while every intelligence operative in the world was looking for him? Clearly someone had a first-rate deception plan in place and their execution was superb--but who?

That’s a couple of unknown unknowns for you.


Okie John

[Totem Polar]

And, good art song is good art song. The Pianist and vocalist did a whole album based on Rumsfeld quotes. That is but one track from the disc—which I own.

[Erick Gelhaus]

It's reading threads like this one that I recall why people have bailed from here.

I didn't agree with all of his decisions, but a man who stepped up and served his country - both in and out of uniform - probably deserves a Rest in Peace.

[Ed L]

It's reading threads like this one that I recall why people have bailed from here.

I didn't agree with all of his decisions, but a man who stepped up and served his country - both in and out of uniform - probably deserves a Rest in Peace.

What Erik said.

[Willard]

I never understood the hilarity that ensued after Secretary Rumsfeld made these remarks.

Most of it came from the media, who think they know about information, secrets, and lies. Compared to intelligence agencies in war time—which is what he was talking about—they’re barely single-cell organisms.

Intelligence agencies aren't looking at whether Britney Spears should be able to spend her own money. They deal with information about extremely smart, creative, vicious people who will die if their activities are discovered or even suspected. Those people are well trained at deceiving anyone looking into those activities and will kill anyone who gets too close to the truth. Intel agencies have oceans of this information coming at them every second. They have to decide what’s true, what’s deception, and what’s so freaking bizarre that it can barely be understood on its face—then prove or disprove it, then figure out what to do with it. And the fate of millions could depend on whether they get it right.

Known knowns and known unknowns are a straightforward inventory of the situation. Unknown knowns and unknown unknowns are the things that matter. Who ever would have thought that Osama bin Laden had been living in the Pakistani equivalent of West Point for several years while every intelligence operative in the world was looking for him? Clearly someone had a first-rate deception plan in place and their execution was superb--but who?

That’s a couple of unknown unknowns for you.


Okie John

Agreed. Early in my career, one of my boss's said, "There's what you know, what you know that you don't know, and what you don't know that you don't know. It's the latter that will get you in trouble." Made sense to me then and more so now.

[Leroy Suggs]

It's reading threads like this one that I recall why people have bailed from here.

I didn't agree with all of his decisions, but a man who stepped up and served his country - both in and out of uniform - probably deserves a Rest in Peace.

So much this.
A few really nasty assholes have posted in this thread.

[okie john]

And, good art song is good art song. The Pianist and vocalist did a whole album based on Rumsfeld quotes. That is but one track from the disc—which I own.

The art-song part I get.


Okie John

[Totem Polar]

A few really nasty assholes have posted in this thread.

That comes off as a bit harsh, IMO.

[TGS]

That comes off as a bit harsh, IMO.

73761

Exactly what a really nasty asshole would say, you really nasty asshole.

[Dog Guy]

It's reading threads like this one that I recall why people have bailed from here.

I didn't agree with all of his decisions, but a man who stepped up and served his country - both in and out of uniform - probably deserves a Rest in Peace.

It's a tough balance on a discussion forum. The whole point of participating on a forum is to discuss, and sometimes to vent. While I respect that he was willing to enter the arena, he was also an arrogant ass whose conduct of two wars led to the death of many young men and women who also stepped into that arena and had to fight under a system that Rumsfeld, in too many cases, imposed on them with total disregard for the advice of military professionals. I don't know how to balance it out.

[Borderland]

I remember the first war in Iraq. Brought to you by Donald Rumfeld and his false claim that there were weapons of mass destruction there. He dupped a lot of people.

History won't be kind to Donald Rumsfeld, I'm pretty sure of that. If he was a relative of mine I certainly would'nt want anyone to know that.

RIP

[Totem Polar]

It's a tough balance on a discussion forum. The whole point of participating on a forum is to discuss, and sometimes to vent. While I respect that he was willing to enter the arena, he was also an arrogant ass whose conduct of two wars led to the death of many young men and women who also stepped into that arena and had to fight under a system that Rumsfeld, in too many cases, imposed on them with total disregard for the advice of military professionals. I don't know how to balance it out.

Concur. This has been a reasonably civil discussion, in wider internet terms, typical of P-F.

Since it’s inevitably going to go there, now that the insult can has been opened, I’ll go ahead and throw my own two personal cents in: my best friend from college and best man at my wedding went from Ft Bragg with the 1st special forces command to Laghman province, where he was KIA by an RPG-7. This happened during a time of relative upheaval and resource shortage, due in part to long-term policies that likely contributed to Rumsfeld’s decision to step down.

Rumsfeld was walking the halls of power since *well* before I was born, and I’m 53. Everyone has an opinion, and mine is colored by my experience of his decisions.

On the other hand, he was also one of the main proponents of the freedom of information act; everyone is also a mixed bag, ultimately.

I’m not personally a fan though. That said, I’m not militant about opposing opinions. JMO.

[JRB]

I remember the first war in Iraq. Brought to you by Donald Rumfeld and his false claim that there were weapons of mass destruction there. He dupped a lot of people.

History won't be kind to Donald Rumsfeld, I'm pretty sure of that. If he was a relative of mine I certainly would'nt want anyone to know that.

RIP

May not have been the Nukes everyone was looking for, but there sure as hell was a lot of chemical weapons. An OIF I veteran I know personally has severely damaged lungs from a mustard gas exposure during the initial invasion, but even the VA refused to consider the possibility of that until 2013-2014 or so. So thank you for staying closed minded on those concepts and being part of a fingers-in-ears hivemind that collectively delayed effective medical treatment over a decade for a friend of mine. Despite being a clean-living athlete when he joined the USMC he now has the lungs of a 90 year old lifelong 2-pack-a-day smoker and that's a vast improvement over what he had.

That said, I believe Donald Rumsfeld was a decent man that made a hell of a career serving our country, he just made the terrible mistake of believing the media was trying to convey the truth to the public. He learned in the hardest way that the media will play any angle they can to embarrass the staff of a President they decide they don't like, and deliberately ignore anything of actual value and make no attempt to make it more easily understood by their readership.

RIP Sir, and godspeed. Hope he enjoyed a couple of those northern NM sunsets before he passed, the past couple of weeks have had some spectacular ones out here.

[Totem Polar]

Still worth reading/heeding: https://planetpdf.com/planetpdf/pdfs/rumsfeldsrules.pdf


Okie John
That was worth reading.

[Kanye Wyoming]

Still worth reading/heeding: https://planetpdf.com/planetpdf/pdfs/rumsfeldsrules.pdf


Okie John
Indeed. Thanks.

[Erick Gelhaus]

It's a tough balance on a discussion forum. The whole point of participating on a forum is to discuss, and sometimes to vent. While I respect that he was willing to enter the arena, ...

I'd have been fine with the former SecDef being MF'd in a thread about thoughts on his time as SecDef. I draw the line, personally, at it being done in a thread announcing his passing.

I spent time in Iraq as a service member, not as a contractor. I lost one of my Soldiers, my driver, to an Iranian EFP. I have issues with the decisions made by more than a few, especially Bremer and the NCA.

Rumsfeld had no overtly apparent involvement with the '90/'91 Gulf War.

As for NBC, CBRN, ChemBio, WMD ... he used it on his own people in the 90s, he told everyone who'd listen that he had it, we found stuff there in the 00s that didn't go to Syria & get hit by the IAF/IDF.

I'll bow out now, enough people have proven my point. Hopefully, you celebrate this nation's Independence this weekend - while we still can.

[Borderland]

So thank you for staying closed minded on those concepts and being part of a fingers-in-ears hivemind that collectively delayed effective medical treatment over a decade for a friend of mine.

I had nothing to do with what the VA did or didn't do. They screwed over a lot of Vietnam vets also. The VA sends me a ckeck every month for a service conected disability so I have a little experience with the VA.

Best bet is to just leave those ground wars alone if you can't treat the people that fight those with some dignity when they need the help once they serve.

DR didn't go to war in Iraq.

[Dog Guy]

[QUOTE=Erick Gelhaus;1238938]I'd have been fine with the former SecDef being MF'd in a thread about thoughts on his time as SecDef. I draw the line, personally, at it being done in a thread announcing his passing. ...



That's a distinction I had not considered, and a fair point.

[Ed L]

May not have been the Nukes everyone was looking for, but there sure as hell was a lot of chemical weapons. An OIF I veteran I know personally has severely damaged lungs from a mustard gas exposure during the initial invasion, but even the VA refused to consider the possibility of that until 2013-2014 or so. So thank you for staying closed minded on those concepts and being part of a fingers-in-ears hivemind that collectively delayed effective medical treatment over a decade for a friend of mine. Despite being a clean-living athlete when he joined the USMC he now has the lungs of a 90 year old lifelong 2-pack-a-day smoker and that's a vast improvement over what he had.

Here is a link to an unclassified report from 2006, at which time the coalition had recovered at least 500 munitions that contained mustard gas or sarin--which is a nerve agent:
https://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/Iraq_WMD_Declassified.pdf

and:

https://www.cnn.com/2014/10/15/us/iraq-chemical-weapons/index.html

[Borderland]

The military covered something up and the VA turned their back on vets after the war. Nothing new there. I think that's more or less SOP.

Most people just re-discover that after every major military action envolving large numbers of troops.