Buffer retaining pin: Yes/No?

[Clusterfrack]

A buddy of mine has been telling me about the advantages of going pinless. As in removing the buffer retaining detent pin from the AR lower to prevent malfunctions related to pin bending or failure.

I'm reluctant to remove this part for a few reasons, and thought this would make for a good discussion here.

I have replaced some of my pins with L-W Heavy Duty buffer retainers (https://leitner-wise.com/store/G2-Heavy-Duty-Buffer-Retainer-p141104163).

[snow white]

I remove them in my rifles (just gotta remember when you crack the gun open :D ) my thought is that its just one less part to possibly fail, if I can removethe possibility all together then why not?It in no way effects the performance of the rifle. The heavy duty retainer is also a fantastic choice to address the concern, 6 of one half dozen of the other.....or just leave it stock, because thats just fine as well.

[OlongJohnson]

I've seen this hashed out before. My understanding is that if all the tolerances are stacked up the way they should be, the pin just sits there and nothing ever touches it until you open the receivers, at which point the buffer moves forward a tiny fraction of an inch and stops gently against it. So there should be no substantial risk of failure. As in, countermeasures that involve strengthening or eliminating it are a solution to the wrong problem.

[Clusterfrack]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210629/5ded872b9601f69bd840e6de6c8c38b3.jpg

L-W heavy duty pin (https://leitner-wise.com/store/G2-Heavy-Duty-Buffer-Retainer-p141104163)

[Caballoflaco]

It does seem like a captured buffer/spring assembly that’s less complex than the JP model would be a cool and viable engineering solution and allow the elimination three arguably needed small parts in the AR reciever.


Captured Springs have been used successfully on rifle and pistol designs for a long time now.

[Casual Friday]

I'm not running a buffer retainer in one of my lowers because I got ahead of myself and launched it into orbit in my shop while removing the standard receiver extension to install an A5 system. I didn't have a spare so I just assembled it without it.

I don't really worry about one failing in any of my lowers that have a buffer retainer, I'm just saying I've ran the lower without one for almost three years and nothing bad has happened. Even if you forget it's missing while separating the upper and lower, the spring and buffer usually just shoot forward and stop against the rear of the hammer. If the hammer doesn't stop it, it's kinda like opening one of the gag cans of peanuts with the springy snake inside that jumps out at you.

[TWR]

I leave them in, they play no part with the gun closed and I've never seen one fail.

I don't want to have a malfunction and need to open my gun under stress and have a loose buffer and spring to deal with.

[Bigghoss]

I asked this here once and the few people that responded said they leave it in. Being a government employee I've seen a bunch of hand-me-down M16A1 and A2's that weren't in the best condition and I've never seen or heard of one breaking on any of those. I know Karl Kasarda of InRangeTV is big on removing them because he's seen a few fail at matches. Overall it seems like a subjective thing to me.

[Bergeron]

I leave them in, they play no part with the gun closed and I've never seen one fail.

I don't want to have a malfunction and need to open my gun under stress and have a loose buffer and spring to deal with.

Could this be considered the primary risk of BRP removal? I'm about halfway through an AR build, and will need to decide what to do about this exact topic.

The options other than everything traditional and stock appear to be:

1) Heavy duty BRP

2) No BRP

3) Captured buffer assembly - I'm aware of the JP and of the Armaspec. I understand that InRange & Forgotten Weapons are both big fans of the JP, as evidenced by the WWSD2020 carbine.

I'm personally more tempted by 1) & by 3) than I am by 2), but if anyone can comment on malfunction reduction without a BRP, I would be curious to know more.

[Clusterfrack]

3) Captured buffer assembly - I'm aware of the JP and of the Armaspec. I understand that InRange & Forgotten Weapons are both big fans of the JP...

They probably have more experience than I do, but that seems like solving one issue and possibly creating another. While I have no personal experience with JP captured buffer spring assemblies in my guns, I have observed more AR malfunctions caused by (or correlated with) JP parts than all other malfunctions combined. My impression is that JP parts work great when the gun is clean, cool, and running the right ammo. Several of the guys whose carbines I've either had to unfuck during a class or match--or was unable to and ended up loaning them one of mine--said something like "...it always runs great. I've never had this happen..."

[WDR]

Non-expert, non-gunfighter opinion: Leave them in.

If you have a lower/upper/buffer combo that is chewing up buffers or pins, something is probably out of spec... and that gun probably shouldn't be used to defensive purposes, IMHO. A heavy duty pin is either overkill (in spec gun) or bandaid (out of spec gun), again IMHO.

[TWR]

My main reason is to just keep everything as simple as possible.

I see no other problems with removing the pin but why? If it’s getting beat up or worn, figure out why and fix the problem.

As for JP I think they make some good products but a captured buffer system just isn’t on my need list. I prefer to keep things simple and reliable.

[orionz06]

I have the Forward Controls (https://www.bigtexordnance.com/product/fcd-rbf-reinforced-buffer-retainer-forward-controls-forward-controls-design/) ones in almost all guns now, they're just too cheap not to.

[M2CattleCo]

I leave them in but I don’t tolerate out of spec junk.

I had a BCM lower that chewed up buffers because they hit the pin. It’s gone and was replaced with a SOLGW/Mega.

Problem solved.

[DpdG]

I’ve got a sionics that started battering the buffer after I put a LAW folder on it. Debating one of the beefy detents or dropping the LAW.

[spelingmastir]

The pin shouldn’t be taking any load in an assembled gun unless it is located too far back. This is sometimes the case with out of spec lowers.

[WDR]

I have the Forward Controls (https://www.bigtexordnance.com/product/fcd-rbf-reinforced-buffer-retainer-forward-controls-forward-controls-design/) ones in almost all guns now, they're just too cheap not to.

Forward Controls stuff is almost universally well thought out and reasonably priced. If I felt inclined to upgrade, I'd try one of these. I'm still disinclined to replace them, if there is nothing else going wrong with the gun.

[JRB]

I've seen a lot of unlikely broken shit in a lot of abused M16's and M4's over the years.
Aside from all the usual stuff, I've seen snuffy manage to:
Insert the bolt retaining pin backwards, so the extractor was 180* away from the ejection port - that made for some really fun FTE's.
Eject an A2 rear sight block into low Earth orbit while 'adjusting the sight' (still can't figure that one out) It was on a cut A4 style carry handle so it was a fast replacement thankfully, but still confusing.
Use a well placed loop of 550 cord to convert an A2's burst setting to straight full auto. This normally works surprisingly well, except for when you forget about the 550 cord for so long that it disintegrates into your lower and clogs up the works.
Break off an A2 buttstock buffer tube at the lower. Nice, neat, very obvious Aluminum metal fatigue. The threaded section remaining was still bound super tight in the lower, so I don't think it was loose when the tube was still intact.
Selector lever that was wallered out just perfectly enough to permit a 360* rotation over the selector stop bumps in the lower. Snuffy thought rotating it past burst would make it full auto. It made it an M16A2 shaped club instead. Made for an interesting mechanical soup in the lower. Selector detent and detent spring were in place and showing no issues, it was all in that selector lever. I would have repaired it in our arms room but our S4 NCO at the time was a chicken shit wiener of the highest order, so it got sent off to depot level maintenance whereupon it never returned because it was an M16A2 and we were getting M4's soon (tm).


With all this weird shit, I've never once seen a buffer retaining pin failure or any kind of failure related to that part.

That said, and as mentioned in other posts here, an in-spec lower will never allow the buffer to contact the retaining pin while an upper w/BCG is installed. I suspect these failures of the retaining pin are more likely to be related to an out of spec combination of parts allowing the buffer to repeatedly hit the retaining pin while firing.

[19852+]

I've never seen a buffer retaining pin break but I have heard about them breaking and the broken piece could be an issue. I'm using a JP captured unit and I like it very much. Before purchase I went over to one of the competition forums to ask about them. Nobody who responded ever had an issue and a lot of these guys shoot 1000's of rounds per month. At least before the current ammo shortage...
My example of one has had zero issues and I noticed a difference right away in terms of smoothness and recoil control. It is easy to maintain though it hasn't needed maintenance. I did change a stainless buffer for a tungsten weight.

[Tokarev]

Is this still even an issue? Yes it could be a concern on some out-of-spec guns but I'd bet these were mostly basement or garage builds using stuff from Model 1 Sales, Nesard, etc. I think most companies do a decent job with tolerance nowadays. That and the hobbyist crowd has gotten a little wiser too.

Speaking of basement builds; who is old enough to remember Duncan Long and the AR15 Source Book?

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[DDTSGM]

Speaking of basement builds; who is old enough to remember Duncan Long and the AR15 Source Book?

I'm old enough, but didn't ever read the book. Thanks, you just cost me $11.68. ;)

[Cdub_NW]

I am in the camp of removing them. One less item to fail. It isn't often but when/if they do fail, it nearly always locks the rifle up pretty badly. I first heard about this from the instructor cadre at PFC in Las Vegas. Brian Hartman, the Chief Instructor has posted multiple videos about this exact topic and first hand accounts of failures during training courses with various high level teams through the years. That being said, I have not had one fail but after talking to Brian at great length about this over the years I made the decision to remove them from all my rifles. Simply one less point of failure to worry about and one less disposable to maintain. Just my $.01 cents....

[Cdub_NW]

If anyone wishes to check out the video... https://www.instagram.com/tv/CH6l1C2JvL3/

[Clusterfrack]

A buddy of mine has been telling me about the advantages of going pinless.

Cdub_NW thanks for posting, buddy.

[LittleLebowski]

I have the Forward Controls (https://www.bigtexordnance.com/product/fcd-rbf-reinforced-buffer-retainer-forward-controls-forward-controls-design/) ones in almost all guns now, they're just too cheap not to.

Damnit, I need to go count my ARs and I think they just spawned again :(

[HeavyDuty]

Damnit, I need to go count my ARs and I think they just spawned again :(

Count carefully - if you buy too many retainers you will have an AR seed.

[TWR]

I watched the video, thought about the heavy duty pins and then thought crap I’d have to order new end plates and restake them. Then I examined all 4 of mine and not a single one of the pins has been touched. A man can do whatever he wants but I still don’t see the issue on a properly built gun.

[HeavyDuty]

I watched the video, thought about the heavy duty pins and then thought crap I’d have to order new end plates and restake them. Then I examined all 4 of mine and not a single one of the pins has been touched. A man can do whatever he wants but I still don’t see the issue on a properly built gun.

I like the idea of heavier pins, but only on a build or rebuild - I wouldn’t be tearing into a staked gun that wasn’t having issues just to do this.

[M2CattleCo]

In threads like this we find out that a lower or bcg ain’t always a lower or bcg.