Help with a light weight hunting rifle

[Coyote41]

I know I’m looking for a unicorn, but I thought I’d ask anyway. I’m also looking more for a caliber than a specific rifle.

What I want is a 16” light weight bolt action rifle that is capable of ethically taking elk out to 500 yards. This is the maximum distance of where I hunt, and I feel confident in my ability to make that shot. Currently I use a Tikka T3X lite in .300 win mag, and with a scope I’m right around 8 lbs. I would prefer the full set-up be sub 7 lbs if possible.

So what cartridge is capable of delivering this performance? Does it even exist?

Finding data for shorter rifles in hunting calibers has been near impossible. Ideally I’d like to have a tikka or something similar cut down to 16” and threaded for a break. I’d even consider shorter with a pin and weld.


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[pyrotechnic]

The factory rifles that come to mind weight wise are the Seekins Havak Element and the Sako Carbonlight.

Both of those are right around 5.5 lb naked or so with a light optic to could get them down 7 lb. Getting them under and still having a scope that dials reliably is going to be a tall order. I think the NXS 2.5-10 is right around 20oz and is one of the lightest reliable dialing scopes out there.

Both the above rifles have fluted barrels so I don't think you'd be able to get them down to 16" Seekins might do semi-custom versions though.

I don't think you need a magnum to kill an elk at a max of 500, even with the performance being hampered by a 16" tube. While you're going to get more out of a .300 win mag than a .308 regardless of barrel length I don't think the extra recoil and blast would be worth it in a 7lb gun.

A 16" 6.5 PRC would be interesting. You would probably be right around 20" 6.5 Creedmoor performance without an excessive amount of recoil.

ETA: I think Tikka is starting to chamber the 6.5 PRC I don't know if you would meet the weight requirements, but cutting a T3 lite down to 16" would be alot cheaper than the sako or seekins route. I'm sure you could find a carbon fiber stock for it and still not be in it an arm and a leg.

[GJM]

I have a Havak Element in .300. Still getting to know it, but so far I love it. Mine has a Leupold Vx6 2-12.

[OlongJohnson]

You could do a lot worse, and spend a lot more money, than just cutting 4-8 inches off your Tikka and putting it in one of these stocks:

http://wildcatcomposites.com/Tikka.html#features10-49

They often finish out around 19 ounces, which is about 9 ounces lighter than the factory Tikka poly.

A few ounces for the shorter barrel. Think about a lighter scope and mounts.

I recently weighed some parts. Found my preferred Warne steel Tikka rings weigh 6 ounces, while the factory aluminum rings weigh 2 ounces. Leupold scopes tend to be light, but have been criticized for not dialing all that well. Up to 500 yards, with the right reticle, that may not matter.

You may be closer than you think.

I'm contemplating going down this path with a Tikka.

[Guerrero]

One of the Ruger Scout rifles?

[Coyote41]

The Havak element is interesting, but I’d prefer a shorter barrel. Getting to the area I like to hunt in requires getting through young aspens and other bushwhacking (no trails, etc). I was just hoping for something easier to move around even more so than the weight.

The Ruger scout is limited to .308, which is less than I would prefer for Elk at distance. The other problem is my example was a 3 MOA rifle even with good factory ammo.

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[okie john]

The Havak element is interesting, but I’d prefer a shorter barrel. Getting to the area I like to hunt in requires getting through young aspens and other bushwhacking (no trails, etc). I was just hoping for something easier to move around even more so than the weight.

The Ruger scout is limited to .308, which is less than I would prefer for Elk at distance. The other problem is my example was a 3 MOA rifle even with good factory ammo.

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The mention of aspens make me think you're hunting Rocky Mountain elk rather than Roosevelts. I'd imagine that Lost River will be along directly to describe the ancient ways of taking them at longer ranges with a 308.

What optic, rings, and bases did you have in mind?


Okie John

[littlejerry]

Someone already beat me to the "cut down your Tikka" suggestion. I'll also add that there are a few outfits offering prefit Tikka barrels these days. I'm sure you could order up whatever length/contour/fluting you wanted.

[Coyote41]

The mention of aspens make me think you're hunting Rocky Mountain elk rather than Roosevelts. I'd imagine that Lost River will be along directly to describe the ancient ways of taking them at longer ranges with a 308.

What optic, rings, and bases did you have in mind?


Okie John

Yep. Rocky Mountain Elk. I actually lugged an LMT MWS around one year (miserable). The T3 has an old Leupold VXR 3-9 with Leupold back country rings on an EGW 20 MOA base.

.308 is fine for elk out of a longer barrel. It just looks anemic at 16”.

If cutting the .300 win mag down is a possibility I may just compromise and do 18”. I was looking at .338 federal as a contender, but it may be marginal. I am also making the assumption that I’ll be relying on crushing injury entirely and little hydrostatic shock. So larger, heavier bullets would seem the way to go.


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[OlongJohnson]

Since you're focused on shortness, another option may be a single shot of some kind. By eliminating most of the length of the receiver, they come out at a much shorter overall length for a given length of barrel. Maybe 4-5 inches. So you could have a 21-inch barrel and have the gun be the same overall length as a bolt action with a 16-inch barrel. Add in the easy takedown feature so you can just have the whole thing stuffed in a pack if you have a hike in where you're confident you won't encounter The Big One, and it gets interesting. Several companies make custom barrels for T/C Encore. There are various classy falling blocks, and there's the CVA Scout and H&R break-opens at the bottom end.

[okie john]

I am also making the assumption that I’ll be relying on crushing injury entirely and little hydrostatic shock. So larger, heavier bullets would seem the way to go.

Barnes might have something for you, but I'll leave it to more the experienced to go into that.


Okie John

[Lost River]

The mention of aspens make me think you're hunting Rocky Mountain elk rather than Roosevelts. I'd imagine that Lost River will be along directly to describe the ancient ways of taking them at longer ranges with a 308.

What optic, rings, and bases did you have in mind?


Okie John




You called? :cool:

Yes, without question the .308 is more than capable of cleanly taking any elk within 500 yards. People get way too caught up in reading about theoretical "formulas" and other stuff written by guys who are long on theory and short on actual time in the field, actually killing elk. I hunt with a 20" barrel and it has not caused me any issues.

In spite of their foot pound/knockout/TKO/whatever formulas, elk keep tipping over dead after being shot with a .308. According to the experts, that should only happen when using magnums or a something new like a Creedmoor.

Ultra light rifles and long range shooting are not things that really go hand in hand generally speaking. I have mentioned it here before that with my 20" Tikka T3 .308 that has a McMillan Edge stock, which is very light, it is a rather difficult rifle to shoot precisely due to light weight.

Shooting it at extended distances, especially when my hands are cold/numb in typical elk terrain is especially challenging. The rifle is very easily a 1/2 MOA rifle. However when it is 10 below zero, and fingers are numb, I shoot about 1.5" groups @ 100 yards at best in field conditions.

I would strongly recommend against going under a 20" barrel for an elk rifle. It sounds great in theory, but in practical use, they are not practical at all, unless you are planning on adding a long suppressor onto the end of it, rather than just a muzzle brake.

Most of my elk are shot in the 400s on average, just due to the time of year and terrain. I hunt a late December hunt and the elk are usually able to see you coming from a good ways away. Last year I put two down, both in the 4s. Those were with a 6.5 though. Normally I am using my little .308 though, and the one before that was a 615 yard shot and the cow went down with a single shot.

Short version here is that I would stick with a Tikka, but strongly recommend against going any shorter than 20"s. You really don't gain much in maneuverability in the brush. You lose a bunch in ease of shooting. You simply are getting to a point of a rifle that is too short and will be very hard to shoot precisely at extended distances.

Plus if you choose a .308 Tikka, being a long action, there are things you can do to maximize the potential of the rifle, such as long loading projectiles, using a 30-06 mag. It is a super versatile platform.

My oldest daughter LOVES to smack down elk with her 20" Tikka .308.

https://i.imgur.com/pHkhMAG.jpg?1

https://i.imgur.com/WWCXC3c.jpg?1

https://i.imgur.com/oxauACQ.jpg






Famous Alaska Master Guide Phil Shoemaker said the following:



I know quite a few Alaskan hunters who use the 308 for all their needs. I also have been told by numerous guides and resident hunters in Spain, Tajikistan & Kazakhstan that the 308 is considered "the best" hunting cartridge.. In Zimbabwe two years ago both PH's in our camp used 308's as their personal hunting rifles.

In fact You could safely replace "30-06" with 308 Win in my statement below.

Anyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship



That is a pretty significant statement and one that you should consider. If you do not know who Phil Shoemaker is, it might be good to do some research.

People have all but forgotten the 30-06 and 308 today simply because they have been successfully advertised to. The fact is that if you actually want to go out and kill stuff, they are very, very hard to beat. They do everything well.

Cheers!

[Coyote41]

Lost River

Good food for thought. A couple questions for you. What bullet are you using for .308? Traditional or monolithic copper? What bullets are you loading that require the .30-06 mag?


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[okie john]

You called? :cool:

Yes, without question the .308 is more than capable of cleanly taking any elk within 500 yards. People get way too caught up in reading about theoretical "formulas" and other stuff written by guys who are long on theory and short on actual time in the field, actually killing elk. I hunt with a 20" barrel and it has not caused me any issues.

In spite of their foot pound/knockout/TKO/whatever formulas, elk keep tipping over dead after being shot with a .308. According to the experts, that should only happen when using magnums or a something new like a Creedmoor.

Ultra light rifles and long range shooting are not things that really go hand in hand generally speaking. I have mentioned it here before that with my 20" Tikka T3 .308 that has a McMillan Edge stock, which is very light, it is a rather difficult rifle to shoot precisely due to light weight.

Shooting it at extended distances, especially when my hands are cold/numb in typical elk terrain is especially challenging. The rifle is very easily a 1/2 MOA rifle. However when it is 10 below zero, and fingers are numb, I shoot about 1.5" groups @ 100 yards at best in field conditions.

I would strongly recommend against going under a 20" barrel for an elk rifle. It sounds great in theory, but in practical use, they are not practical at all, unless you are planning on adding a long suppressor onto the end of it, rather than just a muzzle brake.

Most of my elk are shot in the 400s on average, just due to the time of year and terrain. I hunt a late December hunt and the elk are usually able to see you coming from a good ways away. Last year I put two down, both in the 4s. Those were with a 6.5 though. Normally I am using my little .308 though, and the one before that was a 615 yard shot and the cow went down with a single shot.

Short version here is that I would stick with a Tikka, but strongly recommend against going any shorter than 20"s. You really don't gain much in maneuverability in the brush. You lose a bunch in ease of shooting. You simply are getting to a point of a rifle that is too short and will be very hard to shoot precisely at extended distances.

Plus if you choose a .308 Tikka, being a long action, there are things you can do to maximize the potential of the rifle, such as long loading projectiles, using a 30-06 mag. It is a super versatile platform.

My oldest daughter LOVES to smack down elk with her 20" Tikka .308.

https://i.imgur.com/pHkhMAG.jpg?1

https://i.imgur.com/WWCXC3c.jpg?1

https://i.imgur.com/oxauACQ.jpg






Famous Alaska Master Guide Phil Shoemaker said the following:



I know quite a few Alaskan hunters who use the 308 for all their needs. I also have been told by numerous guides and resident hunters in Spain, Tajikistan & Kazakhstan that the 308 is considered "the best" hunting cartridge.. In Zimbabwe two years ago both PH's in our camp used 308's as their personal hunting rifles.

In fact You could safely replace "30-06" with 308 Win in my statement below.

Anyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship



That is a pretty significant statement and one that you should consider. If you do not know who Phil Shoemaker is, it might be good to do some research.

People have all but forgotten the 30-06 and 308 today simply because they have been successfully advertised to. The fact is that if you actually want to go out and kill stuff, they are very, very hard to beat. They do everything well.

Cheers!

Kinda thought you might say something like that.



Okie John

[Lost River]

Lost River

Good food for thought. A couple questions for you. What bullet are you using for .308? Traditional or monolithic copper? What bullets are you loading that require the .30-06 mag?


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I generally will keep a magazine full of 220 grain round nose Hornady bullets, or whatever I have handy if I find myself hunting in Grizzly country. I simply swap out mags from what I used to hunt with, to the 220s and use those for bear defense, as I would much rather defend myself using my rifle than my sidearm.

The bullet I use almost exclusively is the 155 Lapua Scenar pushed by Varget. It works on deer, elk, whatever and is exceeding accurate. Yes it is a match bullet, but a little google-fu will show you a whole bunch of dead animals that have fallen to Scenar bullets, ranging from small deer to huge bears. The Scenar has a hard jacket and the terminal performance is excellent.

In fact there is a thread called "deceased by Scenar" over on 24 hour campfire forum that is about 25-30 pages long and has a bunch of huge bulls and bears and monster mule deer in it. Many of which were taken with .308s shooting 155s.




I also have in the past fooled around shooting VLD bullets in my .308s, loading them long, and the 30-06 mag aids in this. There is this erroneous belief that 30 calibers such as the .308 and -06 is outdated and now ineffective. Much of this is due to the truly excellent advertising campaigns of Hornady and some gun manufacturers to sell the 6.5 CM (which is a great little cartridge). However they tend to compare their best BC products with middle of the road .30s caliber projectiles.

I have been shooting a .260 Rem for more than a decade, fiddled with 6.5 Swedes off and on through the years, and currently shoot a 6.5 Manbun (Creedmoor). The 6.5s are truly excellent. No question about it. However they have been hyped up, and people think they are capable of doing things that simply defy logic. I have both heard and read that the 6.5 CM replaces the .300 WM as a hunting cartridge, and they are equally powerful. I could not quite get anyone to accurately describe what they meant by "powerful" but it seems (paraphrasing) that the 6.5 CM has the same "knock down power" as a .300 win mag at 900 yards.

However people tend to compare poor performing projectiles in one cartridge to the best in another. Yes, a 300 wm load with a 165 grain low BC bullet kind of sucks. Stick a 225 grain ELD-M with a G1 BC of .777 against the 6.5 CM pushing a 140 grain ELD-M with a G1 BD of .646 and the 6.5 really loses steam the further out you go.

Now take that same 225 grain .777 G1 bullet, long load it in a .308 case, stick it in a 30-06 mag, and now your little .308 has some long range legs when you want to ring steel at 1200 yards.

This is just an example photo I made to show what is possible.



https://i.imgur.com/uyRC7n7.jpg



A lot of the gun buying public is not really aware of the what is possible with proper handloading. The Tikka T3 is a phenomenal platform and allows you to do some amazing things. Shoot 155 Scenars for most your hunting, and switch to specialty loads for anything else.

I forgot to mention modification of the bolt stop that is required to go from short action cartridges like the .308/6.5CM to longer length and use the -06 mags as designed, but I can post a link for that.


Cheers!



You get high BC bullets

[Skinner Precision, LLC]

Tikka's are awesome actions but should never be considered svelte if you strip one down and weigh it. I have a customer who is a coyote calling competitor and a one rifle kind of guy. He used his t3x 6.5 creed for everything. After packing it for many miles the season before last he had me chop down the barrel to 17" and rethread for his can then he sold of some stuff and had me put a bartlien cf wrapped barrel that gave him a thicker profile, longer length for the same weight penalty. He is currently waiting on his form 4 to get a much lighter can and he has a more reasonable optic for non accuracy testing. As far as calibers for 500 yard elk shots there are a lot of options but a persons skill and ethics play a big role.

[OlongJohnson]

Lost River, what's up with the Scenar 155 being discontinued for the 155L? Are they equivalent on game, or is that TBD? BC is listed identical.

https://www.lapua.com/bullets/scenar/


The .30 cal GB491 10 g/155 gr Scenar bullet is no longer in active production, it has been replaced with the .30 GB522 10,0 g / 155 gr OTM Scenar-L bullet.

[Lost River]

People that are using them are not seeing any difference from what I have heard and read. I bought two, 1,000 round boxes of the standard 155 Scenars so I have a good supply to get through before I will have to check out the L version. :cool: I tend to buy in bulk, as you never know when the next crisis is around the corner and supply of something will dry up.

A good .308 bolt gun, a good .45 auto and a good large bore revolver, along with supplies to feed them for many years are all things I figured I had better have. Having those supplies set back means meat in the freezer.

[Coyote41]

People that are using them are not seeing any difference from what I have heard and read. I bought two, 1,000 round boxes of the standard 155 Scenars so I have a good supply to get through before I will have to check out the L version. :cool: I tend to buy in bulk, as you never know when the next crisis is around the corner and supply of something will dry up.

A good .308 bolt gun, a good .45 auto and a good large bore revolver, along with supplies to feed them for many years are all things I figured I had better have. Having those supplies set back means meat in the freezer.

Living in a state that doesn’t require an impossible drawing to get hunting tags helps get meat, too. Another unsuccessful year for draws. With the drought and fires I don’t know how plentiful the OTC tags will be this year. I’ll get to hunt white-tail on the east coast, but those distances are so close that a well chucked rock can take deer. The last one I shot with .308 was overkill.


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[Jimichanga]

I know I’m looking for a unicorn, but I thought I’d ask anyway. I’m also looking more for a caliber than a specific rifle.

What I want is a 16” light weight bolt action rifle that is capable of ethically taking elk out to 500 yards. This is the maximum distance of where I hunt, and I feel confident in my ability to make that shot. Currently I use a Tikka T3X lite in .300 win mag, and with a scope I’m right around 8 lbs. I would prefer the full set-up be sub 7 lbs if possible.

So what cartridge is capable of delivering this performance? Does it even exist?

Finding data for shorter rifles in hunting calibers has been near impossible. Ideally I’d like to have a tikka or something similar cut down to 16” and threaded for a break. I’d even consider shorter with a pin and weld.


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Buy a 22" Proof carbon prefit for your existing T3x chambered in 7 Saum. Screw off the Win mag bbl (could be challenging) and screw on the new barrel. Same magnum bolt face as your win mag. Take a look at the KRG Bravo chassis for the Tikka or if you are serious about weight the manners EH1 for the tikka. Buy a WSM magazine for the chassis. There is good brass available for the cartridge, Norma or ADG. Push 180 Bergers just over 3k with H4831SC or faster with RL26. Smash elk. I don't know if the wind blows where you hunt but run the numbers with the JBM calculator with the 180 Berger and the other cartridge you are looking at. I've been very happy with the 180s on elk.

[okie john]

Famous Alaska Master Guide Phil Shoemaker said the following:

I know quite a few Alaskan hunters who use the 308 for all their needs. I also have been told by numerous guides and resident hunters in Spain, Tajikistan & Kazakhstan that the 308 is considered "the best" hunting cartridge.. In Zimbabwe two years ago both PH's in our camp used 308's as their personal hunting rifles.

In fact You could safely replace "30-06" with 308 Win in my statement below.

Anyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship

Any insight into the loads these guys prefer?


Okie John

[farscott]

My first thought, which @Lost River (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=4952) so much more eloquently stated, was to use a .308 in a short-action rifle. The Tikka, of course, is a long-action. Getting rid of the magnum-length action saves a bit of weight at the expense of not being able to load long.

Elk hunting is an excellent application for a longer carbon fiber barrel. That way you get the most out of the .308 cartridge without adding too much weight. Proof Research offers some nice barrels for the Tikka at https://proofresearch.com/barrels/tikka-pre-fit/ but the barrels are not inexpensive. The twenty-inch barrel weighs a bit under 2.5 pounds but costs $600. The one that I tried in 6.5 on a buddy's rifle was almost too light.

I am old school enough to opt for a fixed-power scope saving even more weight. I am definitely in the minority here, but a Leupold M8-8X will do all I need at 500 yards.

[JonInWA]

I'm completely comfortable with my CZ 527 in 7.62x39 for deer, up to 200 yards with iron sights.

Anything longer, optics. Anything bigger than deer, mo' cartridge, such as .308.

Best, Jon