Flip and Press

[RJ]

I wanted to get some opinions on a trigger press approach I will loosely describe as "Flip and Press"?

I shoot Glocks, and recently came across a video of a slow-fire sequence where this appeared to be used. This individual finished each trigger press flat, paused very briefly in that position, then with an audible reset of the connector, released the trigger. The next shot was taken from just before the break.

So the sequence went:

1 Get quick/careful/precise sight picture, as needed, for the target distance, then take up slack in trigger
2 Break shot, but hold trigger against guard after
3 Allow for a very slight pause
4 Release (flip) the trigger all the way forward to reset connector, then take up slack again and get another sight picture
5 Repeat at (2) as needed, otherwise release trigger and place finger on slide as usual

After I thought through what I have been doing, I am in a rush to shoot the next shot and get off the trigger, without allowing it to pause or "finish" at all, really.

I tried this very briefly at the square range at the end of my last session and discovered it did seem to offer a slight increase in accuracy, but at the expense of the delay. However the actual trigger press also seemed to result in less movement of the gun at the break, since I was mentally finishing with no movement of the trigger. Just that slight pause in time after the shot before starting the flip forward or reset of the connector seemed to be steadier.

Am I headed down the wrong path here?

[YVK]

Am I headed down the wrong path here?

Yes





2 Break shot, but hold trigger against guard after
3 Allow for a very slight pause



This is called trigger pinning and it works only for single, slow, accuracy shots. Holding your trigger down robs you of time to reset and prepare for the next shot. Handgun cycles with 0.05 sec speed so it is ready for the next shot that soon. It is you who is holding the next shot down with sight pic recovery and trigger resetting, and this technique adds unnecessary loss of time.

"Flip and press" is the term that Rogers Shooting School has ben using for the decades to describe their technique. Frankly, even after attending that school I am still not sure what it is. I myself use a simpler scheme.

[Wise_A]

This is a trigger technique I use extensively in bullseye. It can assist in follow-through because you're making a psychological commitment to holding the trigger back after the break, so instead of hesitantly creeping up to the break, you smoothly move through it. Consistent trigger speed and/o linear pressure increase is important.

[RJ]

This is a trigger technique I use extensively in bullseye. It can assist in follow-through because you're making a psychological commitment to holding the trigger back after the break, so instead of hesitantly creeping up to the break, you smoothly move through it. Consistent trigger speed and/o linear pressure increase is important.

Thanks, yes, bullseye is kinda the context I was pondering. I should have mentioned that. I shot my first two GSSF indoor league matches in May and June. It is a 50 round course of fire, delivered statically from low ready at five ranges using 5 mags of 10. You get 15s to shoot the 10 rounds. Max score is 500. I shot 474 and 468 so far. I shoot the next match in July.

YVK thanks that makes sense. I don't think for USPSA I'll be waiting around a whole lot after a shot, for sure, it was more for a thought experiment/question point of view.

[JRV]

"Pin through reset" was what I was taught in the academy back in 2011. The fastest we needed to shoot to run quals at the instructor qualification pace... 0.5-0.6 splits at the close targets, 1 second splits further than seven yards. Double those times for the cadets' qualification pace. It was a fine concept for teaching a bunch of folks with zero pistol skills how to isolate their trigger press fundamentals. It did not impose a barrier to the glacial pace of our qualification test.

It is useless as an applied shooting technique for anyone beyond a pure beginner. Get off the trigger, and let your eyeballs and the demands of the shot dictate how the next press occurs.

There's no reason to wait until your sights have settled to then work through the "tactile/audible" reset. The trigger should be resetting through the recoil cycle, so if you need to shoot again, you're good to go the second your eyes register that the front iron/red dot is back in an acceptable target area. If you need a slower, more precise shot, need to shoot at "assessment speed"... you control that on the front end by being more deliberate with the trigger press. If you have a solid grip and good recoil management, "pinning through reset" just means you'll spend an extra .15-.2 seconds pointing a functionally-inert pistol directly at your target while waiting to feel the "click."

[GJM]

There is more information on flip and press here, if you read down some posts.

https://www.1911forum.com/threads/flip-and-press-trigger-technique.473921/

YVK, I believe you are confusing pinning the trigger which Bill Rogers did as an example of follow through, with “flip and press” which is Bill’s method of coming off the trigger and working the trigger press in one complete motion. That is different than riding to reset, or staging a trigger press.

[JCN]

When I started USPSA I was using “flip and press” and actually transitioning and short stepping with the trigger pulled and held all the way to the rear and then would let loose and trigger when I got to the next target.

ROs did not like that. :D

I don’t do that anymore.

[Clusterfrack]

Great advice and thread topic. The only thing I can add is that skill can advance a lot when vision becomes the primary focus. We can’t ignore trigger, grip, wrist, stance, etc., but I’m not a fan of trigger-focused techniques like pinning or DA staging.

@rj, you can follow through visually. Watch the sight lift. And return.

[professor]

Thanks, yes, bullseye is kinda the context I was pondering. I should have mentioned that. I shot my first two GSSF indoor league matches in May and June. It is a 50 round course of fire, delivered statically from low ready at five ranges using 5 mags of 10. You get 15s to shoot the 10 rounds. Max score is 500. I shot 474 and 468 so far. I shoot the next match in July.



FWIW, I shoot GSSF indoor leagues quite often. My scores are almost always 490+ and I’ve shot several 500s.

I always reset during recoil. I also practice very deliberate 1 second splits for shooting these, using a shot timer and keeping an eye on the splits. In a match it can be difficult not trying to speed up at the 5-7-10 yard strings, but I try to maintain that rhythm during these entire matches. I judge my speed during the match based on time left after my last shot until the stop beep. Trying to make it a 1 hole target at the shorter distances helps. The 1 second splits give me a margin of error to keep me from going over the 15 second par time allowed on the course of fire.

If you end up with the original course of fire that has a 30 second par time at the 25 yards. Shoot 5 shots. Relax a few seconds and then finish up the last 5.

Keep at it. It is an excellent competition to judge your progress with.


The only time I catch myself pinning the trigger during recoil is on far longer distance shots.


Good luck!!

[M2CattleCo]

Glock?

Burn a hole in the front sight and smash through all of it.

Release all the way, to even hit the front of the trigger guard with your finger and repeat.

[jlw]

Here is an article that I wrote on trigger reset. (https://firstpersonsafety.com/2019/11/30/the-trigger-reset-question/) It does not cover flip and press, but that is a term used at Rogers. As I recall the AI's explanation, the shooter would flip the trigger finder forward and then sweep back through the trigger, but truthfully, I didn't quite grasp it as he was explaining it.

I use the technique as described by Spaulding in the my article, but I know several very successful shooters (GM level) who let the trigger out passed the reset point but maintain contact with the trigger and who then prep the trigger again.

[Doc_Glock]

Great advice and thread topic. The only thing I can add is that skill can advance a lot when vision becomes the primary focus. We can’t ignore trigger, grip, wrist, stance, etc., but I’m not a fan of trigger-focused techniques like pinning or DA staging.

@rj, you can follow through visually. Watch the sight lift. And return.

Truth. The less I think about the trigger the better I seem to shoot.

[Backspin]

I've found simply relaxing the trigger finger will allow the trigger to reset while maintaining contact with the trigger face. So follow through becomes a "relax and prep" (or relax and press) process.

Locally, "shoot to reset" is a very common issue I have to fix among shooters, even LE firearm instructor candidates. Many will spend more time resetting the trigger than actually pressing it. Surprisingly, many are not familiar with the concept of prepping the trigger after reset.

[RJ]

Here is an article that I wrote on trigger reset. (https://firstpersonsafety.com/2019/11/30/the-trigger-reset-question/) It does not cover flip and press, but that is a term used at Rogers. As I recall the AI's explanation, the shooter would flip the trigger finder forward and then sweep back through the trigger, but truthfully, I didn't quite grasp it as he was explaining it.

I use the technique as described by Spaulding in the my article, but I know several very successful shooters (GM level) who let the trigger out passed the reset point but maintain contact with the trigger and who then prep the trigger again.

Very useful, thanks jlw.

[RJ]

FWIW, I shoot GSSF indoor leagues quite often. My scores are almost always 490+ and I’ve shot several 500s.

I always reset during recoil. I also practice very deliberate 1 second splits for shooting these, using a shot timer and keeping an eye on the splits. In a match it can be difficult not trying to speed up at the 5-7-10 yard strings, but I try to maintain that rhythm during these entire matches. I judge my speed during the match based on time left after my last shot until the stop beep. Trying to make it a 1 hole target at the shorter distances helps. The 1 second splits give me a margin of error to keep me from going over the 15 second par time allowed on the course of fire.

If you end up with the original course of fire that has a 30 second par time at the 25 yards. Shoot 5 shots. Relax a few seconds and then finish up the last 5.

Keep at it. It is an excellent competition to judge your progress with.


The only time I catch myself pinning the trigger during recoil is on far longer distance shots.


Good luck!!

Appreciate this post also. Good stuff to think about before my next match. Thanks!

[CraigS]

I am nowhere near the skill level of a lot of shooters here but this is my take. If I am going to pause somewhere in the trigger finger movement when shooting multiple shots, it isn't going to be when the trigger is fully rearward against the frame or adjustment screw. It is going to be after I have taken up the pre-travel. At that point, I will decide if I should pull through sear movement quickly or a bit more slowly depending on size or distance to the target. An IDPA target that needs two to body and one to head is a perfect example. 2 body shots quickly followed by a slower pull for the head shot.

[RJ]

FWIW, I shoot GSSF indoor leagues quite often. My scores are almost always 490+ and I’ve shot several 500s.

I always reset during recoil. I also practice very deliberate 1 second splits for shooting these, using a shot timer and keeping an eye on the splits. In a match it can be difficult not trying to speed up at the 5-7-10 yard strings, but I try to maintain that rhythm during these entire matches. I judge my speed during the match based on time left after my last shot until the stop beep. Trying to make it a 1 hole target at the shorter distances helps. The 1 second splits give me a margin of error to keep me from going over the 15 second par time allowed on the course of fire.

If you end up with the original course of fire that has a 30 second par time at the 25 yards. Shoot 5 shots. Relax a few seconds and then finish up the last 5.

Keep at it. It is an excellent competition to judge your progress with.


The only time I catch myself pinning the trigger during recoil is on far longer distance shots.


Good luck!!

Just wanted to come back to this great post with some notes in prep for my match on Saturday. I shot 20 rounds of match ammo (AE 124) through the G34 yesterday. I had installed a Wolff 4.5 lb striker spring, and wanted to make sure I didn't have any reliability issues (I didn't). The gun feels very crisp naturally, I previously had a 5.0 lb Wolff spring. So the trigger press is fairly easy, relative to the previous setup.

With that, I shot 5 round "groups" in terms of trying to stay at match speed, which is to say 1/sec. I experimented a bit with pinning the trigger. Whereas when I started the thread I was literally mimicking the timing I'd heard of hold the trigger to the rear, now I wasn't. As I shot the groups, I shortened the amount of time the trigger shoe rested against the back of the guard. By the time I was done, I still was holding the trigger to the rear, but let it go well ahead of and prepped for the next shot before the dot settled onto the target again. By this point I was back on the trigger, slack taken up, waiting to break the shot.

If I had to estimate actual "time the trigger was held to the rear", through these groups, it would be, in milliseconds (since I'm an engineer):

Group 1 - 1,000 ms (sight was back on target well before I let go)
Group 2 - 500 ms (sight was in process of settling when I let go)
Group 3 - 250 ms (sight had just about come on target)
Group 4 - 50 ms (I was on the trigger, slack taken up, when the sight came on target)

So by group 4, I still had the feeling of "pinning the trigger" or "finishing flat" or however you want to call it. This is pretty hard to put into words but I noticed that I felt better about my static accuracy. I think as time goes on and I can increase my hand strength and grip even more, to where I can hold the gun more still, the time I spend in pinning the trigger can be shorter still, but still give me a feeling like I am breaking the shot accurately. So, ultimately I feel like this experiment has led me to be able to shoot faster, but still be accurate. Obviously this all happens very very quickly, and is kinda hard to describe.

All these shots were taken 2 handed, unsupported. I am pretty sure the sight is centered to the ammo; I've been mentally averaging my group location(s) over time with this gun, making small adjustments to the sight after confirming it originally off a rest. Below is the target after either group 2 or group 4 (can't remember) but the other ones looked similar. This was at 10 yards. I clicked the sight down -6 MOA based on this (I'd clicked it up 4 MOA after the last match, but that was with BB 124) and the AE124. (There's no scale but IIRC this circle pattern is about 6" across.)

73979

I have one more practice session likely for Friday to confirm my mental prep, then will shoot the match Saturday, just like Friday.

Thanks again professor for the constructive input!

[professor]

Just wanted to come back to this great post with some notes in prep for my match on Saturday. I shot 20 rounds of match ammo (AE 124) through the G34 yesterday. I had installed a Wolff 4.5 lb striker spring, and wanted to make sure I didn't have any reliability issues (I didn't). The gun feels very crisp naturally, I previously had a 5.0 lb Wolff spring. So the trigger press is fairly easy, relative to the previous setup.

With that, I shot 5 round "groups" in terms of trying to stay at match speed, which is to say 1/sec. I experimented a bit with pinning the trigger. Whereas when I started the thread I was literally mimicking the timing I'd heard of hold the trigger to the rear, now I wasn't. As I shot the groups, I shortened the amount of time the trigger shoe rested against the back of the guard. By the time I was done, I still was holding the trigger to the rear, but let it go well ahead of and prepped for the next shot before the dot settled onto the target again. By this point I was back on the trigger, slack taken up, waiting to break the shot.

If I had to estimate actual "time the trigger was held to the rear", through these groups, it would be, in milliseconds (since I'm an engineer):

Group 1 - 1,000 ms (sight was back on target well before I let go)
Group 2 - 500 ms (sight was in process of settling when I let go)
Group 3 - 250 ms (sight had just about come on target)
Group 4 - 50 ms (I was on the trigger, slack taken up, when the sight came on target)

So by group 4, I still had the feeling of "pinning the trigger" or "finishing flat" or however you want to call it. This is pretty hard to put into words but I noticed that I felt better about my static accuracy. I think as time goes on and I can increase my hand strength and grip even more, to where I can hold the gun more still, the time I spend in pinning the trigger can be shorter still, but still give me a feeling like I am breaking the shot accurately. So, ultimately I feel like this experiment has led me to be able to shoot faster, but still be accurate. Obviously this all happens very very quickly, and is kinda hard to describe.

All these shots were taken 2 handed, unsupported. I am pretty sure the sight is centered to the ammo; I've been mentally averaging my group location(s) over time with this gun, making small adjustments to the sight after confirming it originally off a rest. Below is the target after either group 2 or group 4 (can't remember) but the other ones looked similar. This was at 10 yards. I clicked the sight down -6 MOA based on this (I'd clicked it up 4 MOA after the last match, but that was with BB 124) and the AE124. (There's no scale but IIRC this circle pattern is about 6" across.)

73979

I have one more practice session likely for Friday to confirm my mental prep, then will shoot the match Saturday, just like Friday.

Thanks again professor for the constructive input!

Great progress.

I worry about your striker spring choice. Keep you eye on it. I’ve seen so many people end up with “light strikes” with Glocks causing a failure to fire. Maybe not with a new spring, but after a while or with substitution of another ammo/primers that are a bit more difficult to light off. For this reason all of my Glocks have stock striker springs. Even the few I have with modified triggers.