Avoiding Blue on Blue shooting (also relevant to intervening citizens)

[BehindBlueI's]

In light o the Arvada shooting, I figured I'd repost this:

I've been the only plain clothes officer at an active shooting scene. It's nerve wracking.

It's difficult for many who haven't been involved in a chaotic shooting scene to really know the reality of how limited your information will be and how your own body will fail you. I know that I am very unlikely to heed verbal commands initially because I will likely be in auditory exclusion and simply not hear you. I've mentioned that after my shooting an officer I know grabbed me by the shoulder of my armor to move me as people behind me were moving up armed and I looked at him, simply saw "uniform" and then went back to the bad guy and let him move me. I knew the officer very well, but didn't take the time to process his face as my brain was busy with other things, uniform = good guy = let him move you was all that I dedicated processing power to. Think of this as the "limited processing power rule" and apply that lens to the following:

From training and experience, here's what I would recommend to prevent good guy on good guy shootings:

1) Communicate. Even if you think there is nobody to communicate with, sound off. "STOP ATTACKING THE OFFICER!" or "DROP YOUR GUN!" or whatever. There are always more 'ear witnesses' then 'eye witnesses' and sounding like a good guy will help people assume you are the good guy.

2) Put your gun away as soon as possible. ESPECIALLY long guns. Don't worry about disarming the downed bad guy. Don't even approach him, especially alone. People do this probably thinking it is safer to get it away from him. Even rookie (and sometimes not so rookie) cops get caught up in that. Leave it. Remain behind cover and watch the bad guy, no need to approach and remove the gun. If he gets back on the gun, you know he's a threat again.

3) Nobody gets shot rendering aid. If you are applying pressure to a wound and yelling for help, you are visually and audibly not a threat and "field expedient medics" will instantly be assumed "good guy" by the limited processing power rule.

4) If response is delayed and there is time, call 911 yourself. ID yourself. Now is the time to think about your wording. Do not call and say "I shot someone" and hang up. I've honest to God heard of a trainer who was telling people to call 911 and say "there's been a shooting" then hang up. That's so retarded it should be criminal to teach it to people and I can know immediately that well-meaning idiot has no experience in this realm and doesn't know what he doesn't know.

Something like "I shot someone attacking your officer at (location). The suspect is (down/fled north/whatever). I am an off duty officer (if applicable) with XXPD. I am (physical description) wearing (clothing) and will meet your officers at (location) and make myself known. My gun is (holstered/in my car/at my feet/whatever *BUT NOT IN YOUR HANDS*). Provide suspect description if suspect is still out, including last known direction of travel. Give an estimate of number of casualties and severity so EMS can be started, if applicable. If possible, have the phone on speaker and in a shirt pocket or the like once you can hear sirens. Nothing in your hands is preferable. DO NOT ASSUME THE OFFICERS KNOW WHAT YOU TOLD DISPATCH. This is a literal game of telephone, the dispatcher can mix things up, the radio may be so tied up information hasn't went out yet, an individual officer may not have heard that piece of traffic as he concentrated on negotiating a crowded intersection of oblivious idiot drivers, ec.

5) Follow instructions of uniformed officers. Now is not the time to talk or explain, it's the time to listen. This is drilled into us. It doesn't matter if you're a 20 year supervisor and the first uniformed officer is a kid 6 weeks out of the academy. He's in charge until you're detained and vetted.

[Snapshot]

Not my lane and hopefully will not be my experience but "GUN NOT IN HAND" and perhaps even "HANDS CLEARLY VISIBLE AND EMPTY" seems like very good advise for anyone not responding in a recognized uniform, particularly if it involves shooting or even reports of shooting.

[blues]

Good stuff, BBI.

Years ago I was on a UC assignment where I was protecting a source who was supposed to be met by someone in Hartford, CT who had allegedly threatened him.

I accompanied him to the men's room where I stood at a urinal with something other than my dangling part in my hand.

A couple moments later a few guys burst in with guns out and I thought they were there to assassinate the source. With them pointing at me and me pointing at their leader, it was amazing that nobody got shot before they finally remembered to announce they were Hartford P.D.

I had to be restrained from physically assaulting their sergeant who made light of the situation in the immediate aftermath. I was not a happy camper about his trivializing their failure to identify themselves as they burst in the door.

(Turned out the source had set it up by playing both sides against one another for whatever deviant reasons of his own he harbored. He nearly got the bloodshed he sought.)

Take nothing for granted. Nobody knows who the damned good guys are in some scenarios.

[Utm]

On the PD side, I'd recommend the visiblue hi vis beanie to throw on. I have no affiliation with them or anything but throwing that on post shooting while off duty or plain clothes could be very helpful to prevent blue on blue

[Coyotesfan97]

Reference BBI’s post point #4 I don’t know how many times I’ve heard the victim and suspect descriptions flipped. Just another thing to ponder when in that situation.

[JohnO]

Good stuff, BBI.

Years ago I was on a UC assignment where I was protecting a source who was supposed to be met by someone in Hartford, CT who had allegedly threatened him.

I accompanied him to the men's room where I stood at a urinal with something other than my dangling part in my hand.

A couple moments later a few guys burst in with guns out and I thought they were there to assassinate the source. With them pointing at me and me pointing at their leader, it was amazing that nobody got shot before they finally remembered to announce they were Hartford P.D.

I had to be restrained from physically assaulting their sergeant who made light of the situation in the immediate aftermath. I was not a happy camper about his trivializing their failure to identify themselves as they burst in the door.

(Turned out the source had set it up by playing both sides against one another for whatever deviant reasons of his own he harbored. He nearly got the bloodshed he sought.)

Take nothing for granted. Nobody knows who the damned good guys are in some scenarios.

Note to self: Stay out of men's rooms in Hartford! Just hold it. (No pun intended.)

[BehindBlueI's]

Reference BBI’s post point #4 I don’t know how many times I’ve heard the victim and suspect descriptions flipped. Just another thing to ponder when in that situation.

Yup. I've heard that radio traffic. Control, is that the *suspect* or the *victim*'s description?

When I was a detective, I would get on that district's channel and give my description directly to them. I'm checking this robbery alarm, I'm (unit number) and I'm (description). Control, please broadcast that a plain clothes officer is marking on the scene.

[BobM]

Reference BBI’s post point #4 I don’t know how many times I’ve heard the victim and suspect descriptions flipped. Just another thing to ponder when in that situation.

Same here. Around here I’d be afraid of a certain agency’s dispatch mixing up the descriptions.

[PD Sgt.]

I think I have mentioned this before in other threads, but when I used to train new detectives I would tell them that guys they worked with for years in uniform will likely not recognize them if they are somewhere with a gun in their hand (coffee maybe, pistol, no).

Just like BBI said, no matter how long you have been on, no matter how much you think everyone knows you, it doesn’t matter and you are not in charge. Air/call in with who you are and your description if you can, and fully expect to be put on the ground and in irons (at best) until it is sorted out to their satisfaction.

[MickAK]

Yup. I've heard that radio traffic. Control, is that the *suspect* or the *victim*'s description?

When I was a detective, I would get on that district's channel and give my description directly to them. I'm checking this robbery alarm, I'm (unit number) and I'm (description). Control, please broadcast that a plain clothes officer is marking on the scene.

First, thanks for making the thread, it's a subject I don't have a very good plan for, not sure there is one but your information helps.

I live caddy corner to an elementary school. Current plan is to go in with my trauma bag and my sling bag to render aid if I go in at all. I have a yellow safety vest I go back and forth on whether it would be a good idea to wear.

In your experience would having hi-vis clothing I can describe to the dispatcher be helpful or more likely to get me confused with the assailant than sticking to normal clothing?

[BehindBlueI's]

First, thanks for making the thread, it's a subject I don't have a very good plan for, not sure there is one but your information helps.

I live caddy corner to an elementary school. Current plan is to go in with my trauma bag and my sling bag to render aid if I go in at all. I have a yellow safety vest I go back and forth on whether it would be a good idea to wear.

In your experience would having hi-vis clothing I can describe to the dispatcher be helpful or more likely to get me confused with the assailant than sticking to normal clothing?


I think hi viz would be good. The common assumption would be bad actors would not want to be highly visible, after all. Maybe even one with "volunteer " on the back, another position association. " ...a volunteer medic on scene wearing..." wording if you call it in

[El Cid]

Good stuff to think about and way too many stories of citizens and LEO’s being shot due to fog of war.

For me, I try to mitigate my plain clothes work with these:
1) Always wear an undershirt that has POLICE in large letters on all four sides. Currently I prefer the 13 Fifty brand. My mental checklist includes ditching my outer shirt as soon as practicable.

2) I keep the DSM banner in each of my cars and sometimes backpacks.

3) I keep soft armor with ID placards within arms reach of the drivers seat.

4) I put these on my duty long guns.
https://www.arcustoms.com/police-pvc-picatinny-rail-cover/

5) I keep a ball cap with POLICE on it in the center console.

Obviously none of this makes me immune to friendly fire and situational awareness is a life saver.

[kwb377]

Same here. Around here I’d be afraid of a certain agency’s dispatch mixing up the descriptions.

Not just dispatch...I've heard officers after a description being given out at least a dozen times of "white male, white t-shirt, blue jeans", ask "Was that a black female in a red dress?". Some people I worked with, I was amazed that they had the cognitive ability to actually dress and drive themselves to work each day.

[UNM1136]

I teach a lot of this in my Civilian Response to Active Shooters course. I am not surprised, but very disgruntled that this is not CCW101 stuff. Also, all the more reason not to carry Gran'pappy's smuggled home war souvenir pistol as an EDC CCW piece, if you are not willing to eject it onto the pavement when necessary.

And to paraphrase the other thread, once the bad man is down, retreat to a point of cover, if you want to keep eyes on him. Nothing says you have to. Unass the area to a safer (around a hardened corner, not your barcolounger) place. Be one of the eleventyone callers for the scene, and meet the officers. Do not stand over the bad man, holding him for the cops. Leave his blaster where it lie. Have nothing in your hands when the cops roll up. (Unless) It seems kinda goofy, but I actually like Mas' old beacon technique with a badge (LEO, not stupid CCW shield) over your head, rotating to show it off. It is just different enough behavior to (maybe) register in the mind of a stressed out responding cop. (Side note: I have run a small department through a shoothouse on an in-service decisional shooting course. Targets had weapons, badges in the hand, on the belt, and on a neck chain. Responding officers were briefed identically from a cue card. Some analized everything the way they should, others, until given remedial, lit up everything in their path.)

The practitioners here take it as a pat on the back when they are told they shoot better than the average cop. I wonder if they remember that it is a bell curve, and the first responding cop they draw in the lottery may be well below average. On shooting ability, on decision making, on scene management...

pat

[Luger]

As I have mentioned before: I don`t know shit about policing in the USA. But this is a real problem detectives (and other plainclothes officers) face all around the world. So maybe this information can be helpfull over there.

Some years ago (when the german public was on high alert because of the terrorism threat) we had two of our detectives outside investigating a crime scene. Both were in plainclothes, but carried their handguns open, assuming that they would be recognized as police officers. A citizen saw them, imediately called dispatch and told them there were armed people running around in the street. Our detectives had left their radio in the car, so they only learned about this, as suddenly a bunch of patrol officers with MP5s arrived to confront the "terrorists".
Luckily everyone kept cool and nothing further happened...

In another case I was contacted by a very nervous civilian, who told me there was a gun toting guy standing in the street. I went there to investigate, only to find out it was another police officer in plainclothes, who was just arresting a suspect.
That officer did an excellent job in identifying himself. He had a big "POLIZEI" sign on him and a partner (also marked) was standing next to him in ordner to calm down people. Yet the civilian saw a gun and just got mad...

So when I`m out there doing investigations I allways:

- conceal my gun as good a possible
- listen to the radio in case someone reports me as an "armed suspect"
- tell dispatch where I go before I get out of the car
- have my police ID and "badge" (Kriminaldienstmarke) ready in a separate pockert so I can get it out imediately if I`m confronted by other officers
- get on my body-amor with "POLIZEI" sign on it, if I report to a chaotic scene
- imediately contact uniformed officers who I am, as soon as I reach the crime scene

[HeavyDuty]

Former semi sworn drone here. My agency insisted on us wearing consistent clothing for quick identification when we were on scene which helped us stay unventilated. But I find it humorous that the basic CCW “sash” concept that was derided by so many (including me) just a few years ago has been adopted by LE to reduce BonB.

[Jeff22]

“Some people I worked with, I was amazed that they had the cognitive ability to actually dress and drive themselves to work each day”

Many people are fine dealing with normal day life or even low level challenges, but lock up in a real crisis. That’s often because they are unprepared but I have come to believe that some people just can’t handle the unexpected, no matter how much training they get. Unfortunately, sometimes those people become the police.

[blues]

“Some people I worked with, I was amazed that they had the cognitive ability to actually dress and drive themselves to work each day”

Many people are fine dealing with normal day life or even low level challenges, but lock up in a real crisis. That’s often because they are unprepared but I have come to believe that some people just can’t handle the unexpected, no matter how much training they get. Unfortunately, sometimes those people become the police.

I think it tends to be something in our internal wiring. For me, when bad things happen, things tend to slow down and I generally crack a joke to keep things loose while gaining control of the situation.

I had a long discussion at a FLETC undercover school with some psych profiler from the Bureau about whether good undercovers are born rather than created. He, privately, agreed with me but would not say so in class. That said, any skill set can be enhanced with training. But I honestly believe you either have the gene or you don't.

I think the citizen soldiers of WWII demonstrated such time and again in the tales of bravery by the conscripted. (Not to the exclusion of the bravery of all our military men and women in any conflict.)

[kwb377]

“Some people I worked with, I was amazed that they had the cognitive ability to actually dress and drive themselves to work each day”

Many people are fine dealing with normal day life or even low level challenges, but lock up in a real crisis. That’s often because they are unprepared but I have come to believe that some people just can’t handle the unexpected, no matter how much training they get. Unfortunately, sometimes those people become the police.

The ones I was referring to were idiots in dealing with even low level challenges...the instances of repeated misunderstood BOLO's were on mere shoplifting, gas drive-off, or just "suspicious person" calls. :)

[Jeff22]

As skills instructors or field training officers, sometimes we think “I can train anybody” but the reality is, we cannot. Some people just can’t do certain things.

I couldn’t do surgery, race a Grand Prix car or land a plane on an aircraft carrier, no matter how much training I had.

[Coyotesfan97]

As skills instructors or field training officers, sometimes we think “I can train anybody” but the reality is, we cannot. Some people just can’t do certain things.

I couldn’t do surgery, race a Grand Prix car or land a plane on an aircraft carrier, no matter how much training I had.

I was a SWAT FTO for my team. I can think of a couple guys who were great street cops but couldn’t do SWAT stuff even after they got a lot of extra training.

[HCM]

Former semi sworn drone here. My agency insisted on us wearing consistent clothing for quick identification when we were on scene which helped us stay unventilated. But I find it humorous that the basic CCW “sash” concept that was derided by so many (including me) just a few years ago has been adopted by LE to reduce BonB.

It's not the idea of sashes themselves that were derided. Having a "CCW" sash was seen as the equivalent of CCW badges, though it was a good attempt to be identifiable without "Sheep Dogging Hard" Having a sash that says something on it other than or less instantly recognizable than "Police" is a fail regardless. Though studies have clearly shown Sashes are much more recognizable under stress than badges, including badges on neck chains, if they have agency names, acronyms or anything other than "police" the recognition rate plummets.