Does .45 ACP Expand from a G30?

[Rack]

I seem to remember reading aomewhere that .45 doesn't reliably expand from a shorter barrel, as in a G30? Anyone with experience on this?

Does it reliably expand from 4.5" barrels, such as a G21?

Thanks.

[willie]

Yes. See forum member Docgr's research on the topic. The research is in depth and considered the last word on the subject. Some brands and offerings expand reliably. Some don't. Applies to major defense calibers including 45 Auto.

[JAH 3rd]

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#45ACP

[Nephrology]

Can't think of a reason that it wouldn't

[Gray Ghost]

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#45ACP

According to the page, that test was conducted using a Kahr CW45. I am not familiar with that particular pistol, so I looked it up, and according to the Kahr website, it has a 3.64" barrel. A G30 has a barrel length of 3.78", so that should yield slightly better velocity than the Kahr test gun. So, I'd say the LuckyGunner data is valid to answer the OP's question. If it expanded out of the Kahr, it should expand out of a G30.

[Lost River]

Fortunately, it is a .45.

I have killed a good bit of game, large and small with non expanding bullets, such as semi wadcutters, and wide flat nose profiles. The .45 cuts nice big holes in stuff and kills quite well, even when it does not expand at all.


https://i.imgur.com/KCqxIZZ.jpg?1


If I was never allowed to have a hollow point ever again, I would load up some warm semi wadcutters in a .45 and not feel poorly armed in the least bit. They certainly will go right through a mule deer.

A good 250 grain SWC or RNFP at 850 FPS is pretty big medicine.

My friend at the Milt Sparks shop shot this nice cow elk a couple seasons ago using a 1917 revolver and .45 auto rim (close enough to the same as ACP) and a hard cast, non expanding bullet.


https://i.imgur.com/BnLGEVm.jpg

I know the trend is for smaller bullets these days, but I will take a larger one every time when it comes to stuff like this.

So, if you are genuinely worried about expansion from your G30, you could always switch to an SWC type profile, like handgun hunters use. They have a long track record for excellent deep penetrating terminal performance.

Cheers!

[Archer1440]

Fortunately, it is a .45.

I have killed a good bit of game, large and small with non expanding bullets, such as semi wadcutters, and wide flat nose profiles. The .45 cuts nice big holes in stuff and kills quite well, even when it does not expand at all.

If I was never allowed to have a hollow point ever again, I would load up some warm semi wadcutters in a .45 and not feel poorly armed in the least bit. They certainly will go right through a mule deer.

A good 250 grain SWC or RNFP at 850 FPS is pretty big medicine.

My friend at the Milt Sparks shop shot this nice cow elk a couple seasons ago using a 1917 revolver and .45 auto rim (close enough to the same as ACP) and a hard cast, non expanding bullet.


I know the trend is for smaller bullets these days, but I will take a larger one every time when it comes to stuff like this.

So, if you are genuinely worried about expansion from your G30, you could always switch to an SWC type profile, like handgun hunters use. They have a long track record for excellent deep penetrating terminal performance.

Cheers!

Hunters need deep penetration, and are a lot less concerned about Rule Four- with potential overpenetration and associated consequences beyond the target.

I would just point out that this is not the case for responsible concealed carry, which I would presume would be the issue at hand as we are discussing a G30- a pistol that isn’t well suited to shooting non-jacketed ammunition in the first place, due to polygonal rifling.

[Robinson]

Hunters need deep penetration, and are a lot less concerned about Rule Four- with potential overpenetration and associated consequences beyond the target.

Rule Four applies regardless of bullet type.

[03RN]

Fortunately, it is a .45.

I have killed a good bit of game, large and small with non expanding bullets, such as semi wadcutters, and wide flat nose profiles. The .45 cuts nice big holes in stuff and kills quite well, even when it does not expand at all.


https://i.imgur.com/KCqxIZZ.jpg?1


If I was never allowed to have a hollow point ever again, I would load up some warm semi wadcutters in a .45 and not feel poorly armed in the least bit. They certainly will go right through a mule deer.

A good 250 grain SWC or RNFP at 850 FPS is pretty big medicine.

My friend at the Milt Sparks shop shot this nice cow elk a couple seasons ago using a 1917 revolver and .45 auto rim (close enough to the same as ACP) and a hard cast, non expanding bullet.


https://i.imgur.com/BnLGEVm.jpg

I know the trend is for smaller bullets these days, but I will take a larger one every time when it comes to stuff like this.

So, if you are genuinely worried about expansion from your G30, you could always switch to an SWC type profile, like handgun hunters use. They have a long track record for excellent deep penetrating terminal performance.

Cheers!

Currently carrying these in my 4" lw champion
73344

255gr at 900fps

[Archer1440]

Rule Four applies regardless of bullet type.

Always.

[Lost River]

Hunters need deep penetration, and are a lot less concerned about Rule Four- with potential overpenetration and associated consequences beyond the target.

I would just point out that this is not the case for responsible concealed carry, which I would presume would be the issue at hand as we are discussing a G30- a pistol that isn’t well suited to shooting non-jacketed ammunition in the first place, due to polygonal rifling.

I genuinely wish people would stop just simply repeating what they have read on the net and actually get some actual experience before they offer up advice.

People read "You must be limp wristing" and You can't shoot lead through Glocks" and just repeat it over and over ad nauseum.

The G30 has octagonal rifling, as does the G21.

I have shot many tens of thousands of hard cast bullets through multiple .45 ACP Glocks and never, not once had a single issue. I know my G21 I used for USPSA was well north of 50K, between using it for work, competition, teaching and pretty much everything else. It lived on a diet of 200 grain H&G SWCs and Clays.

The fact is that you absolutely can shoot hard cast lead bullets through factory stock Glock barrels with no issue at all.

In regards to "over penetration", it is not hard to tailor a given bullet, such as the one 03RN has pictured above to perform within your desired parameters. To imply that using hard cast SWC/hunting style bullets is not what a "responsible concealed carry" type person does shows a serious lack of understanding of the subject at hand, as do the comments about not being able to shoot hard cast bullets through .45 ACP Glocks.

[Archer1440]

I genuinely wish people would stop just simply repeating what they have read on the net and actually get some actual experience before they offer up advice.

People read "You must be limp wristing" and You can't shoot lead through Glocks" and just repeat it over and over ad nauseum.

The G30 has octagonal rifling, as does the G21.

I have shot many tens of thousands of hard cast bullets through multiple .45 ACP Glocks and never, not once had a single issue. I know my G21 I used for USPSA was well north of 50K, between using it for work, competition, teaching and pretty much everything else. It lived on a diet of 200 grain H&G SWCs and Clays.

The fact is that you absolutely can shoot hard cast lead bullets through factory stock Glock barrels with no issue at all.

In regards to "over penetration", it is not hard to tailor a given bullet, such as the one 03RN has pictured above to perform within your desired parameters. To imply that using hard cast SWC/hunting style bullets is not what a "responsible concealed carry" type person does shows a serious lack of understanding of the subject at hand, as do the comments about not being able to shoot hard cast bullets through .45 ACP Glocks.



Regardless of your uninformed analysis of my experience level, perhaps you should let Glock know that due to your insight, they should change their clear guidelines on the matter, posted on their website. (Also, “octagonal” is indeed “polygonal”. An octagon is a polygon, after all.)

[03RN]

Regardless of your uninformed analysis of my experience level, perhaps you should let Glock know that due to your insight, they should change their clear guidelines on the matter, posted on their website. (Also, “octagonal” is indeed “polygonal”. An octagon is a polygon, after all.)

Because hard cast bullets are grey in color, does NOT make them “lead” bullets.
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=59

[5pins]

Of course it's going to depend on the ammo you use but I would say generally yes it should expand. This is a test I did with some Winchester White Box and it did expand out of a Colt Defender with a 3 inch barrel.

https://general-cartridge.com/2020/06/23/winchester-45acp-230gr-jhp-in-vyse-ballistics-gel/

[Lost River]

Regardless of your uninformed analysis of my experience level, perhaps you should let Glock know that due to your insight, they should change their clear guidelines on the matter, posted on their website. (Also, “octagonal” is indeed “polygonal”. An octagon is a polygon, after all.)


Ok then,

I will take my seat.

Please inform me of your experience in shooting hard cast bullets through the .45 ACP Glocks.

What experiences led you to the conclusion that the G30 is not well suited to shooting non jacketed ammo?


You stated that "Hunters need deep penetration, and are a lot less concerned about Rule Four- with potential overpenetration and associated consequences beyond the target."

Are you an avid handgun hunter?

How is it that you have come to the conclusion that handgun hunters disregard basic safety considerations and associated consequences?


Your comment "I would just point out that this is not the case for responsible concealed carry" in response to my post about using heavy for caliber hard cast bullets in the G30 implies that type is an irresponsible act.

So please inform me how using a hard cast bullet is irresponsible, based on your experience.

You have the podium.

[Patrick Taylor]

I have read that Bill Allard of the NYPD stakeout squad used a hard cast 200 swc at 1000fps in his 45 acp 1911. No idea if the article was accurate like the internet is but even fmj 45 ball stays in the body more than not from what I have read ( again may not be interent forum level accurate ).

[MickAK]

Hunters need deep penetration, and are a lot less concerned about Rule Four- with potential overpenetration and associated consequences beyond the target.

I would just point out that this is not the case for responsible concealed carry, which I would presume would be the issue at hand as we are discussing a G30- a pistol that isn’t well suited to shooting non-jacketed ammunition in the first place, due to polygonal rifling.

There's a sticky in the Ammunition section titled 'The Presumptive Hazards Of Over Penetration' that's as applicable today as it was 10 years ago.
[CF/Moderator edit]


8/23/11

Failures to stop a suspect because of under-penetration, poor bullet placement, and completely missing the target are far more significant problems than over-penetration. With shots to the center of mass, if a handgun or rifle bullet fails to have enough penetration to reach the large blood bearing vessels and organs in the torso, rapid physiological incapacitation is unlikely and an opponent may remain a lethal threat to officers and citizen bystanders. Conversely, if a bullet fired by officers completely penetrates a violent criminal and exits downrange, the bullet will certainly have had enough penetration to reach the large blood bearing vessels or organs in the torso. As a result, it is more likely to have caused sufficient hemorrhage to induce hypovolemic shock--the only reliable method of physiological incapacitation in the absence of CNS trauma.

Unfortunately, according to the available published date, the majority of shots fired in the field by U.S. LE officers miss their intended target. According to published NYPD SOP-9 data, the NYPD hit ratio by officers against perpetrators in 2000 was 12.3% of shots fired and in 2001 13.5% of shots fired. The Miami Metro-Dade County PD had hit ratios ranging between 15.4% and 30% from 1988-1994. Portland PD reported hits with 43% of shots fired at adversaries from 1984-1992, while Baltimore PD reported a 49% average hit ratio from 1989-2002.

Given that the reported averages for LE officers actually hitting the suspect ranges between 12% to 49% of shots fired, more concern should be given to the between 51-88% of shots fired by LE officers which completely MISS the intended target and immediately result in a significant threat to any person down range, rather than excessively worry about the relatively rare instance where one of the 12%-49% of shots fired actually hits the intended target and then exits the perpetrator in a fashion which still poses a hazard.

In short, the consequences of projectile under-penetration are far more likely to get officers and citizens killed than over-penetration issues.

[Jim Watson]

Because hard cast bullets are grey in color, does NOT make them “lead” bullets.
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=59

The "hardest" regularly used bullet mix is Linotype which is "only" 84% lead.
And if anybody is regularly using pure lead bullets besides muzzleloaders, they aren't advertising it.

[Clusterfrack]

I'm dropping in to remove some comments that aren't focused on the question.

[HCM]

I'm dropping in to remove some comments that aren't focused on the question.

Maybe move to the Ammunition sub forum ?

[HCM]

I seem to remember reading aomewhere that .45 doesn't reliably expand from a shorter barrel, as in a G30? Anyone with experience on this?

Does it reliably expand from 4.5" barrels, such as a G21?

Thanks.

".45" is too generic a description to be useful. You need to specify what loading, bullet weight, bullet type etc. There are a lot of factors which go into proper ammo performance just with factory loads. For example some ammo manufacturers like Speer in their Gold Dot line offer both standard and short barrel loadings.

Then factor in that terminal ballistics testing is something that is easy to do but hard to do correctly such that you get accurate results. Lots of misleading Youtube videos out there.

So does it really matter whether or not it 'expands?" A more pertinent question would be does it over penetrate and is it likely to exit a body ?

The common standard for this is rounds which penetrate between 12' and 18" in FBI spec ballistic gel testing. With all handgun rounds, shot placement is the most significant factor, followed by rounds not exiting the body.

As mentioned there is an ammunition sub forum, in that subforum there are a bunch on "pinned" threads at the top authored by Doctor Gary K Roberts (DocGKR), one of the the preeminent terminal ballistics researchers in the world. He lists factory .45 loading which perform to standard in testing.

Start here: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4337-Service-Caliber-Handgun-Duty-and-Self-Defense-Ammo

[Navin Johnson]

We need to start an ammunition "sticky" section......

[Rack]

Currently carrying these in my 4" lw champion
73344

255gr at 900fps

What are those bullets? Did you cast them yourself?

[03RN]

What are those bullets? Did you cast them yourself?

Bullets are from rimrock
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?45497-Some-200-and-255gr-swc-45-acp-load-data

[jd950]

Since the OP asked about aGlock 21, I assume we are talking .45 ACP. I also assume he was asking about defensive use. Most people carrying defensive guns don't reload. They carry factory ammunition, either ball or JHP. Since the OP asked about expansion, I will go out on a ledge here, and assume he was not asking about wadcutters or semi-wadcutters or ball.

In general, .45 ACP performs sub optimally out of "short" barrels and one would be better off with a different caliber. I think expansion is questionable in 3 and 3.5" barrels for most JHP ammo. I am sure there ares some exceptions. Once barrel length gets to something like 4" or more, then properly designed .45 ACP JHP ammo is not handicapped so much by the barrel length. A 4.6" barrel should not be the cause of ammo performance concerns, in my opinion.

[Joe Mac]

For what it's worth, I just looked back on some chrono work I did with a G30 in 2011. Using 230 Gold Dot and HST (standard pressure), varying lots on different days, the average velocities I got ranged from a low of 802 to high of 836. I'd say that's well within the performance window these bullets are designed for. The G30 barrel isn't all that short, really.

I used a G21 for comparison in a few cases, and only gained about 25 fps from the extra .83" or so of barrel.

[Archer1440]

Ok then,

I will take my seat.

Please inform me of your experience in shooting hard cast bullets through the .45 ACP Glocks.

What experiences led you to the conclusion that the G30 is not well suited to shooting non jacketed ammo?.

You’re right, my personal experience on that matter is limited. While I have launched my fair share of (mostly Meister) lead projectiles, I haven’t shot any lead from a G30, personally.

My comment was based on the following:

1. Heavy leading observed in a borrowed Model 21 (gen 2) Glock pistol shooting SWC/Win231 in under 200 rounds at the Beverly Hills Gun Club (which wasn’t actually in Beverly Hills at all- but in west LA) in November of 1992. I don’t recall the bullet manufacturer, but the bullets were sold as “hard cast”, and loaded by myself on a Dillon progressive owned by a friend of mine at his home in Mar Vista. Groups opened up. Diagnosis was that leading in the barrel was causing the issue. After a thorough (and difficult) cleaning, I switched to plated bullets, and didn’t encounter any further issues. I personally never tried bare lead again in polygonal barrel pistols, particularly after I went to a P7 for carry.

On the other hand, I shot ~50K rounds of Meisters through a Springfield TRP (Storm Lake barrel with standard button rifling) with zero issues (other than a ridiculous amount of smoke, and needing to clean my Super 1050 pretty often) from 2000-2002.

This was during a period of also putting 50K/year of Meisters, plated Berry RN, Federal jacketed factory ammo, and jacketed Hornady HAP rounds through two Springfield Professionals (with Nowlin EDM cut barrels) with no issues, and easy cleanup, from 2001-2003.

I stopped shooting lubed lead projectiles entirely in mid 03, mostly due to being tired of dealing with the mess and smoke.

So, you’re right, my personal experience is limited in this matter, biased by my bad experience in the distant past, and I should not have said anything about it. Will try to do better going forward.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Glock doesn't recommend cast bullets in their pistols and that's fine, but you can do it. It's more a matter of bullet fit in the throat and bore than hardness. Lubrication is also a factor. Lost River has likely forgotten more about bullet casting than most of us on this forum and when you add in new member Outpost 75, we have world class knowledge and experience on the matter. You shouldn't fire just any lead bullets through Glocks, but if you know what you're doing with bullet alloys, lubrication and fit, it's no thing.

Plus, that elk harvested with .45 Auto Rim warms my heart. I've killed quite a few whitetails with .45 AR and cast SWC bullets and all were one per customer kills, with none going more than 25 yards. Large caliber, large meplat bullets kill very well. And...G21 rifling is octagonal, per the Armorer's Course.

[okie john]

It's more a matter of bullet fit in the throat and bore than hardness. Lubrication is also a factor.

This has been my experience as well. The most accurate load I ever found for 9mm Glocks used a cast bullet in the factory barrel.



Okie John

[Stephanie B]

I have read that Bill Allard of the NYPD stakeout squad used a hard cast 200 swc at 1000fps in his 45 acp 1911. No idea if the article was accurate like the internet is but even fmj 45 ball stays in the body more than not from what I have read ( again may not be interent forum level accurate ).

Yes, but back in the day, there wasn't exactly a lot of choice for styles of bullets.

[HCM]

I have read that Bill Allard of the NYPD stakeout squad used a hard cast 200 swc at 1000fps in his 45 acp 1911. No idea if the article was accurate like the internet is but even fmj 45 ball stays in the body more than not from what I have read ( again may not be interent forum level accurate ).


Yes, but back in the day, there wasn't exactly a lot of choice for styles of bullets.

Yes, and we’re talking over 50 years ago.

[Shumba]

Currently carrying these in my 4" lw champion
73344

255gr at 900fps

That will get your attention I bet!
Shumba

[Lost River]

I have been making a load to be used for sale later. The punchline is it is a heavy (+P) .45 ACP hardcast load similar to what 03RN has been loading. It is a 250 grain flatpoint. That profile feeds well in lots of guns. I have shot it in my HK USP, a couple 1911s, a Smith 4506, a Glock 21 and a G30S.

https://i.imgur.com/0O7Ybfa.jpg?1


some data: 250 grain hardcast

Baer 1911 5" BBL velocity avg: 956

S&W 4506 5" BBL velocity avg: 958

HK USP 4.41" BBL Velocity avg: 932

Glock 21 4.61" BBL velocity avg 920

Glock 30S 3.78" BBL velocity avg 861.


In the G3oS with its skinny slide, the rounds were pretty snappy in terms of felt recoil. These are pretty warm loads and in such a small platform you can feel it. If I was going to carry and shoot these frequently, such as for bear repellent duties (which is one of their primary purposes), I would invest in a heavier recoil spring for the compact .45.

[the Schwartz]

I seem to remember reading aomewhere that .45 doesn't reliably expand from a shorter barrel, as in a G30? Anyone with experience on this?

Does it reliably expand from 4.5" barrels, such as a G21?

Thanks.

If you have either firearm--the Glock 21 or 30--and a few JHPs that you're willing to sacrifice for the cause, you can always fire a few into water (an inexpensive, yet perfectly valid soft tissue simulant) to see if they will expand when fired from either pistol. Water is an "optimal conditions" simulant so if the JHPs won't expand in water, they probably won't expand in soft tissue either. If the only performance attribute you are seeking is to see if expansion will occur after impact, there is no need to collect any additional data to model terminal penetration depth and permanent wound mass/volume.

[03RN]

I have been making a load to be used for sale later. The punchline is it is a heavy (+P) .45 ACP hardcast load similar to what 03RN has been loading. It is a 250 grain flatpoint. That profile feeds well in lots of guns. I have shot it in my HK USP, a couple 1911s, a Smith 4506, a Glock 21 and a G30S.

https://i.imgur.com/0O7Ybfa.jpg?1


some data: 250 grain hardcast

Baer 1911 5" BBL velocity avg: 956

S&W 4506 5" BBL velocity avg: 958

HK USP 4.41" BBL Velocity avg: 932

Glock 21 4.61" BBL velocity avg 920

Glock 30S 3.78" BBL velocity avg 861.


In the G3oS with its skinny slide, the rounds were pretty snappy in terms of felt recoil. These are pretty warm loads and in such a small platform you can feel it. If I was going to carry and shoot these frequently, such as for bear repellent duties (which is one of their primary purposes), I would invest in a heavier recoil spring for the compact .45.

/Jeremiah Johnson nod/

[Rack]

I have been making a load to be used for sale later. The punchline is it is a heavy (+P) .45 ACP hardcast load similar to what 03RN has been loading. It is a 250 grain flatpoint. That profile feeds well in lots of guns. I have shot it in my HK USP, a couple 1911s, a Smith 4506, a Glock 21 and a G30S.

https://i.imgur.com/0O7Ybfa.jpg?1


some data: 250 grain hardcast

Baer 1911 5" BBL velocity avg: 956

S&W 4506 5" BBL velocity avg: 958

HK USP 4.41" BBL Velocity avg: 932

Glock 21 4.61" BBL velocity avg 920

Glock 30S 3.78" BBL velocity avg 861.


In the G3oS with its skinny slide, the rounds were pretty snappy in terms of felt recoil. These are pretty warm loads and in such a small platform you can feel it. If I was going to carry and shoot these frequently, such as for bear repellent duties (which is one of their primary purposes), I would invest in a heavier recoil spring for the compact .45.


I like the looks of this.

[RevolverRob]

HST or Gold Dot should expand from a G30. Barnes almost certainly will.

The rule for .45 is relatively simple, for each 3/4" of barrel you lop off the end below 5", drop the bullet weight by ~20 grains (give or take).

So, in general 230 for 5" guns, 200 for Commanders, 185 for Officer's, 165 for Defender. A G30 is "Officer" sized gun, so 185-grain bullets should work well. And low and behold that seems to play out.

Remember that even at 185-grains, the .45 is still ~40 grains heavier than a "heavy" 9mm. The closer you can get to 900fps the more likely you are to get complete penetration and reliable expansion. These aren't "rules" but are guidelines and bullet design certainly plays a role. But speaking generally, if you can push a .45 JHP to 900fps you'll get expansion and penetration from it.

[jd950]

HST or Gold Dot should expand from a G30. Barnes almost certainly will.

The rule for .45 is relatively simple, for each 3/4" of barrel you lop off the end below 5", drop the bullet weight by ~20 grains (give or take).

So, in general 230 for 5" guns, 200 for Commanders, 185 for Officer's, 165 for Defender. A G30 is "Officer" sized gun, so 185-grain bullets should work well. And low and behold that seems to play out.


I do not mean this as argumentative or as a challenge to your position, so don't take it that way, but I have never heard this before and am curious. Can you provide some more information about where this concept comes from, testing, etc?

[RevolverRob]

I do not mean this as argumentative or as a challenge to your position, so don't take it that way, but I have never heard this before and am curious. Can you provide some more information about where this concept comes from, testing, etc?

You can look at the Lucky Gunner data provided above.

The gun is a Kahr CW45, an 'Officer Length' gun (roughly 3.5" of barrel length).

Look at the Gold Dot loadings at the bottom, 185 and 200 give excellent penetration and expansion, 230 does not.

Look at the 230-grain Ranger T, which hits 900 fps on the nose and has perfect penetration and expansion.

There are exceptions, of course, the slow 230-grain Golden Saber did just fine.

This is merely an observation on my part looking at lots of data over the years. Nothing scientific about it, really. Just one of those things where my mind that looks at a lot of trends sees something like, "Hmm, it looks like everything around 900fps tends to do what it is supposed to do."

And in the case of what I mentioned regarding weight...the thing is, you start lopping inches off of .45ACP barrels, velocity drops quickly. What was a 900fps load from a 5" gun, is now a 750 fps load from an Officer's gun. Drop the bullet weight down and you get the velocity back. All things being equal, most folks would probably prefer a 185-grain load from a small gun than a 230-grain load. Probably due almost entirely to recoil characteristics, I've found the lighter rounds in smaller guns more accurate too.

That just leads me to have a general guideline on .45 that basically says, "As you cut barrel length, reduce bullet weight. Target ~900fps +/- 50fps for optimal bullet performance. Use a quality bonded or monolithic HP round. Hit what you're shooting at."

That last point being the real key.

I'm sure the Schwartz has some thoughts on this overall and can likely point out where my observations/assumptions are incorrect better than I can.

[jd950]

Okay, thanks. I do understand the basic concept of reducing weight to increase velocity and the role of velocity in expansion. I had just never heard the .5" / 20 grains thing. My position has generally been that below about 4", .45 ACP is not the best choice of caliber.. I have never heard positive things about the performance of bullets lighter than 230, with the exception of some of the all-copper bullets, but things change and I am sometimes behind the curve. The .5" /20 grains thing was new to me and there may be more recent ammo selections that change that, so I was curious.

It has been years since I carried a .45 for work or defensive purposes although I have a few around and enjoy shooting them.

[the Schwartz]

You can look at the Lucky Gunner data provided above.

The gun is a Kahr CW45, an 'Officer Length' gun (roughly 3.5" of barrel length).

Look at the Gold Dot loadings at the bottom, 185 and 200 give excellent penetration and expansion, 230 does not.

Look at the 230-grain Ranger T, which hits 900 fps on the nose and has perfect penetration and expansion.

There are exceptions, of course, the slow 230-grain Golden Saber did just fine.

This is merely an observation on my part looking at lots of data over the years. Nothing scientific about it, really. Just one of those things where my mind that looks at a lot of trends sees something like, "Hmm, it looks like everything around 900fps tends to do what it is supposed to do."

And in the case of what I mentioned regarding weight...the thing is, you start lopping inches off of .45ACP barrels, velocity drops quickly. What was a 900fps load from a 5" gun, is now a 750 fps load from an Officer's gun. Drop the bullet weight down and you get the velocity back. All things being equal, most folks would probably prefer a 185-grain load from a small gun than a 230-grain load. Probably due almost entirely to recoil characteristics, I've found the lighter rounds in smaller guns more accurate too.

That just leads me to have a general guideline on .45 that basically says, "As you cut barrel length, reduce bullet weight. Target ~900fps +/- 50fps for optimal bullet performance. Use a quality bonded or monolithic HP round. Hit what you're shooting at."

That last point being the real key.

I'm sure the Schwartz has some thoughts on this overall and can likely point out where my observations/assumptions are incorrect better than I can.

As always, your observations prove you to be an astute empiricist. I agree with all that you've said.

Anyone who has been involved in the shooting sports and/or reloaded their own ammunition quickly learns that when barrel length (runway) decreases, bullet mass must also decrease so that velocity can remain at a given level without exceeding the .45 ACP's pressure limit. Newton II, F = ma, says so and by extension so does EK = mas*.

Since hydro-dynamic pressure, a direct function of velocity, is needed to drive a JHP bullet's expansion, higher velocity (within reason, of course) is always desirable. We need only to look at Bernoulli's pressure equation, P = ½ρV2 , to see that the pressure (P), needed to drive the expansion of a bullet, is dictated by two variables; the density of the target material (ρ) and the velocity of the bullet (V) passing through the target material. Since velocity is an exponential variable in Bernoulli's equation, if we increase velocity by 25%, pressure increases by about 56%. If we double velocity, dynamic pressure increases by a factor of four.

Since the yield strength (which has units of pressure) of antimonial lead alloys commonly used in JHP bullet cores is typically no more than 4,000 ppsi (about 27,600,000 N/m2), using the Bernoulli equation—

P= ½ρV2

P = ½ x 1,040kg/m3 x (259m/s)2 = 34,900,000 N/m2 or about 5,060 ppsi

—we can see that the lower boundary, 850 feet per second (about 259 meters per second), of your recommended velocity range of 900 ± 50 feet per second guarantees that there will be plenty of dynamic pressure—and then some—to drive expansion.



About the only caveat that I might offer has to do with the validity of the Lucky Gunner test results—all of which are derived from tests conducted in a clear synthetic polymer gel product that has a much lower density than human soft tissues, water, and shear-validated 10%-concentration ordnance gelatin. Unfortunately, the density of the synthetic gel product also varies from 790 to 824 kg/m3 due to the manufacturer's constant and unpredictable reformulation of their product. The synthetic gel product's much lower density produces less dynamic pressure than a bullet would encounter while traversing human soft tissues (which has densities ranging from 950 to 1,070 kg/m3), water, and 10% ordnance gelatin. In terminal ballistic tests conducted using the synthetic gel product, bullet expansion is under-represented and maximum terminal penetration depth is over-represented as it would occur in human soft tissues and the other soft tissue analogs. Several independent researchers have confirmed this issue and the fact that the synthetic gel product does not properly shear-validate like 10% ordnance gelatin.

That matter aside, Rob, I think that your observations are right on target—pun very much intended.


*This has nothing to do with my friend Mas. ;)

[RevolverRob]

Okay, thanks. I do understand the basic concept of reducing weight to increase velocity and the role of velocity in expansion. I had just never heard the .5" / 20 grains thing. My position has generally been that below about 4", .45 ACP is not the best choice of caliber.. I have never heard positive things about the performance of bullets lighter than 230, with the exception of some of the all-copper bullets, but things change and I am sometimes behind the curve. The .5" /20 grains thing was new to me and there may be more recent ammo selections that change that, so I was curious.

It has been years since I carried a .45 for work or defensive purposes although I have a few around and enjoy shooting them.

I think your general observation that .45 was sub-optimal in <4" guns in the past is absolutely correct. And I suspect it is because there was a dearth of reliable guns in that size range. For a long time you had your choice of an Officer's 1911 or nothing and a poorly built Officer's gun is sort of like nothing... Only with the Glocks, the USP Compact and HK45C do we have really reliable guns in that size range. And then the bullet performance seemed to follow once people took that size range seriously.

If someone wants to shoot and carry a G30, I'm all for it. If I were carrying one, I'd probably choose the 185-grain Barnes loading and drive on. But I wouldn't lose any sleep if I had it loaded with the same 230-grain HSTs that I have in my 5" 1911 right now. :D

[jd950]

—we can see that the lower boundary, 850 feet per second (about 259 meters per second), of your recommended velocity range of 900 ± 50 feet per second guarantees that there will be plenty of dynamic pressure—and then some—to drive expansion.



I doubt that a particular velocity "guarantees" expansion due to a mathematical formula or law of physics. The theories and formulas are fine as far as they go but there are just too many variables in the real world, including bullet design and construction, based on my experience and training. I am quite sure one could easily design a hollowpoint bullet with unreliable expansion even when driven to a velocity at which, in theory, expansion is guaranteed. In fact, I am pretty sure that has been done several times ;) And, as a bullet gets lighter and faster to increase the liklihood of expanison, adequate penetration may become compromised. I like to rely on a combination of testing in proper gel coupled with real world feedback on performance. In any event, I would tend to follow this:

DocGKR: "In .45 Auto barrels under 4" or so, I'd also likely choose a Barnes all copper 185 gr +P loading. Barrels 4" and longer, I'll stick with a good 230 gr loading."

Barnes XPB 185 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Hornady Critical Duty 220 gr +P JHP
Federal HST 230 gr JHP (P45HST2)
Federal HST 230 gr +P JHP (P45HST1)
Federal Tactical 230 gr JHP (LE45T1)
Speer Gold Dot 230 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr JHP (RA45T)
Winchester Ranger-T 230 gr +P JHP (RA45TP)

[jd950]

I think your general observation that .45 was sub-optimal in <4" guns in the past is absolutely correct. And I suspect it is because there was a dearth of reliable guns in that size range. For a long time you had your choice of an Officer's 1911 or nothing and a poorly built Officer's gun is sort of like nothing... Only with the Glocks, the USP Compact and HK45C do we have really reliable guns in that size range. And then the bullet performance seemed to follow once people took that size range seriously.

If someone wants to shoot and carry a G30, I'm all for it. If I were carrying one, I'd probably choose the 185-grain Barnes loading and drive on. But I wouldn't lose any sleep if I had it loaded with the same 230-grain HSTs that I have in my 5" 1911 right now. :D

No, I feel a .45 in a short barrel is sub-optimal even in a reliable gun. In a short barrel with factory ammo, and for defensive/L.E. purposes, the performance .45 ACP round suffers too much, IMO. I assume anyone carrying a 3-3.5" barrel gun is doing so for defensive or LE purposes. Most factory ammo from such barrel lengths just does not reliably perform at an acceptable level for me. To the extent one can counter this with hotter ammo, new issues arise with recoil, muzzle blast, etc. With homebrew ammo, that may not be true, or as true, but relatively few people reload, and in LE circles, it just isn't done.

If I were carrying a .45 in a 3"-3.5" barrel, and had the choice, yes I would carry the all-copper Barnes, and I even have some around here somewhere. But before doing that I would carry a 9mm. Don't get me wrong...if someone handed me a 3" barrel .45 with factory ammo and said it was to be my defensive gun, I would not break down in tears or refuse to carry it, and most likely, if used, it would do what is needed. But if I want a .45, I carry a bigger gun better suited to the caliber. I have at times in the past carried the P220 Carry and a S&W 4516, but that is about as small as I would go, and I would prefer a 9mm in that size range. I realize saying anything negative about the .45 ACP is heresy to many and my comments above may invite "then you stand downrange and let me shoot you with my 3" .45 and we'll see how weak it is" comments, but PF is one place where I can probably get away with saying this stuff. Hopefully.

[the Schwartz]

I doubt that a particular velocity "guarantees" expansion due to a mathematical formula or law of physics.

You've mischaracterized what I actually stated.

I never stated that a particular velocity guarantees expansion due to a mathematical formula or physical law.

This is what I stated:



Since the yield strength (which has units of pressure) of antimonial lead alloys commonly used in JHP bullet cores is typically no more than 4,000 ppsi (about 27,600,000 N/m2), using the Bernoulli equation—

P= ½ρV2

P = ½ x 1,040kg/m3 x (259m/s)2 = 34,900,000 N/m2 or about 5,060 ppsi

—we can see that the lower boundary, 850 feet per second (about 259 meters per second), of your recommended velocity range of 900 ± 50 feet per second guarantees that there will be plenty of dynamic pressure—and then some—to drive expansion.

I stated that Bernoulli's law ''guarantees that there will be plenty of dynamic pressure to drive expansion" and never made any claim that the resultant (and plentiful) pressure would guarantee expansion. Whether or not a JHP expands in the presence of adequate pressure is another matter altogether that I didn't address. The fact remains that, at the quoted velocity, according to Bernoulli's law, there is sufficient pressure to drive expansion if it exceeds the yield strength of the bullet's lead alloy.



If, on the other hand, you are claiming that Bernoulli's law is somehow unsound, please explain why and how you came to that conclusion.

[jd950]

You've mischaracterized what I actually stated.

I never stated that a particular velocity guarantees expansion due to a mathematical formula or physical law.

This is what I stated:

I stated that Bernoulli's law ''guarantees that there will be plenty of dynamic pressure to drive expansion" and never made any claim that the resultant (and plentiful) pressure would guarantee expansion. Whether or not a JHP expands in the presence of adequate pressure is another matter altogether that I didn't address. The fact remains that, at the quoted velocity, according to Bernoulli's law, there is sufficient pressure to drive expansion if it exceeds the yield strength of the bullet's lead alloy.

If, on the other hand, you are claiming that Bernoulli's law is somehow unsound, please explain why and how you came to that conclusion.

My apologies if I misunderstood what you were saying. That is why I bolded the part I was talking about. It appeared to me that by stating "guarantees that there will be plenty of dynamic pressure—and then some—to drive expansion" you were suggesting that expansion was assured by velocity alone and were failing to consider bullet design and material, the nature of what the bullet strikes, intermediate barriers, etc. It still looks that way to me, but I am probably still misunderstanding you.

I do not claim that Bernoulli's law is unsound. I don't actually know or care enough about Bernoulii's law to have an opinion. My understanding is that "Bernoulli's law describes the behavior of a fluid under varying conditions of flow and height." So that gives me pause. But more to the point, I don't think Bernoulli's law or other theoretical physics or math concepts are particularly useful to the issue of terminal ballistics and selecting defensive guns and ammunition.

But, if you and Bernoulli are happy carrying a .45 with 200 grain JHPs, then that is okay with me and I wish you both well. Well, you anyway; Bernoulli is a bit past his sell-by date.

Meanwhile, I am off to perform some fluid dynamics experiments with a nice glass of whisky since I am not on-call tonight.

[MGW]

Is it weird that I read this entire thread and my only take away was “I need another HK in 45 in my life.”?

[the Schwartz]

My apologies if I misunderstood what you were saying. That is why I bolded the part I was talking about. It appeared to me that by stating "guarantees that there will be plenty of dynamic pressure—and then some—to drive expansion" you were suggesting that expansion was assured by velocity alone and were failing to consider bullet design and material, the nature of what the bullet strikes, intermediate barriers, etc. It still looks that way to me, but I am probably still misunderstanding you.

I do not claim that Bernoulli's law is unsound. I don't actually know or care enough about Bernoulii's law to have an opinion. My understanding is that "Bernoulli's law describes the behavior of a fluid under varying conditions of flow and height." So that gives me pause. But more to the point, I don't think Bernoulli's law or other theoretical physics or math concepts are particularly useful to the issue of terminal ballistics and selecting defensive guns and ammunition.

But, if you and Bernoulli are happy carrying a .45 with 200 grain JHPs, then that is okay with me and I wish you both well. Well, you anyway; Bernoulli is a bit past his sell-by date.

Meanwhile, I am off to perform some fluid dynamics experiments with a nice glass of whisky since I am not on-call tonight.

No problem. This sort of stuff (the math, applied science, etc.) isn't everyone's cup of tea. Or whiskey.

There is a lot more to Bernoulli's law than flow and fluid column height as Bernoulli's law can be modified to predict/model armor penetration much like Alekseevskii and Tate did in the mid-1960s when they modified it to model the projectile-target pressure interface gaining quite a bit of acclaim in the field of study. That'd probably bore the dickens out of you, too, given your disinterest/lack of regard for such things so I'll leave it at that.

[the Schwartz]

Is it weird that I read this entire thread and my only take away was “I need another HK in 45 in my life.”?

No.

Doesn't everyone need another HK in .45 in their lives? :)

[Glock17JHP]

If you have either firearm--the Glock 21 or 30--and a few JHPs that you're willing to sacrifice for the cause, you can always fire a few into water (an inexpensive, yet perfectly valid soft tissue simulant) to see if they will expand when fired from either pistol. Water is an "optimal conditions" simulant so if the JHPs won't expand in water, they probably won't expand in soft tissue either. If the only performance attribute you are seeking is to see if expansion will occur after impact, there is no need to collect any additional data to model terminal penetration depth and permanent wound mass/volume.
Great advice... that's exactly what I did soon after joining the IWBA. The data I generated was good enough to be accepted in the IWBA journal. You can always do your own testing. Suggest 4 feet deep minimum on the water, and a plastic sheet over the top to control splashing.

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

Hunters need deep penetration, and are a lot less concerned about Rule Four- with potential overpenetration and associated consequences beyond the target.

I would just point out that this is not the case for responsible concealed carry, which I would presume would be the issue at hand as we are discussing a G30- a pistol that isn’t well suited to shooting non-jacketed ammunition in the first place, due to polygonal rifling.

Do not confuse hard cast with lead bullets, the latter of which is much softer and lead fouls the barrel rapidly. Something such as Buffalo Bore hard cast is perfectly OK to shoot in GLock's or other polygonal barrels.

[Glock17JHP]

I stumbled across this thread while doing research into ammunition for a recently inherited Detonics Combat Master .45 (3.5-inch barrel). Would not carry on purpose for self-defense, but thinking Winchester 230 grain FMJ might be best if I changed my mind. I would want reliability first.

That being said, I wonder if Federal 230 grain non-+P HST would be best hollowpoint for the little Detonics as far as reliability first and expansion second?

[SwampDweller]

I stumbled across this thread while doing research into ammunition for a recently inherited Detonics Combat Master .45 (3.5-inch barrel). Would not carry on purpose for self-defense, but thinking Winchester 230 grain FMJ might be best if I changed my mind. I would want reliability first.

That being said, I wonder if Federal 230 grain non-+P HST would be best hollowpoint for the little Detonics as far as reliability first and expansion second?

I’m similarly curious, except regarding the best load for a HK45C rather than a Detonics, but similar barrel length (well, 3.9” on the HK45C)

[RevolverRob]

The only non-+P .45 ACP I'd trust to penetrate and expand from a <4" barrel would be the Barnes Vor-TX XPB (https://www.barnesbullets.com/product/vor-tx-handgun/?attribute_pa_cartridge=45-auto&attribute_pa_bullet-weight-gr=185&attribute_pa_bullet-type=xpb). Which also has a fairly rounded bullet profile and are generally loaded on the shorter end of OAL. So that should aid in reliability. The 185-grain bullet should get about 750-850fps out of a 3-4" barrel. Barnes tends to design its bullets to have a wide velocity envelope for penetration and expansion, I would guess their XPB penetrates and expands as expected when above 700fps, though I can't say for sure.

I can say, if you email the engineers at Barnes, they're happy to talk with you about the bullets and their performance.

[SwampDweller]

The only non-+P .45 ACP I'd trust to penetrate and expand from a <4" barrel would be the Barnes Vor-TX XPB (https://www.barnesbullets.com/product/vor-tx-handgun/?attribute_pa_cartridge=45-auto&attribute_pa_bullet-weight-gr=185&attribute_pa_bullet-type=xpb). Which also has a fairly rounded bullet profile and are generally loaded on the shorter end of OAL. So that should aid in reliability. The 185-grain bullet should get about 750-850fps out of a 3-4" barrel. Barnes tends to design its bullets to have a wide velocity envelope for penetration and expansion, I would guess their XPB penetrates and expands as expected when above 700fps, though I can't say for sure.

I can say, if you email the engineers at Barnes, they're happy to talk with you about the bullets and their performance.

Would this apply to the HK45C and it’s 3.9” barrel in your line of thinking?

[serialsolver]

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/

Lucky gunner’s 45acp testing was done with 3.64 inch barrel Kahr.

Hope this helps.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[RevolverRob]

Would this apply to the HK45C and it’s 3.9” barrel in your line of thinking?

Closer to 4" the HST seems to work in calibrated ordnance gel.

I would be fine with a 230-grain HST in a HK45C.

[Sensei]

When choosing a carry load in a compact pistol such as a G30 or commander/officer 1911, I consider the following factors in this exact order:

1) Reliability in my gun
2) Terminal performance
3) Accuracy
4) Availability

The standard pressure Speer 230 grain Gold Dot is reliable and accurate in virtually every gun in my stable. It is also ubiquitous in most gun stores. The HTS has a little better terminal performance as the cost of slightly less availability. Ranger-T is another fine choice. All 3 of these choices reliably expand out the G30 3.78” barrel. Having at least 1000 rounds of either on hand in your ammo cashe is highly recommended. FYI, I no longer is +P ammo in any caliber and see no reason to stray from standard pressures in a G30.

[Velo Dog]

The standard pressure Speer 230 grain Gold Dot is reliable and accurate in virtually every gun in my stable.

The Short Barrel version especially has performed well in every test I have seen

https://www.brassfetcher.com/Handguns/45%20ACP/45%20ACP%20Ammo%20Selection.html

[revchuck38]

FWIW, from my 4" M&P45 Compact, standard pressure HST ran 869 fps and +P ran 896 fps. My ammo is from pre-Covid production (the standard pressure has small pistol primers, so it's newer than the +P) and I may have some from a fast lot of standard pressure and/or a slow lot of +P. Perceived recoil is about the same.

I'd be more worried about function in an old-school 1911 like the Detonics. IIRC, they were introduced when Silvertip was considered the hot setup.

[Velo Dog]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZEtzEv0C3g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZEtzEv0C3g

[Bucky]

Is it weird that I read this entire thread and my only take away was “I need another HK in 45 in my life.”?

Well, my takeaway was “I need AN HK .45 in my life”. ;)

I do have a .40 and a few 9s though. :)

[Glock17JHP]

The Short Barrel version especially has performed well in every test I have seen

https://www.brassfetcher.com/Handguns/45%20ACP/45%20ACP%20Ammo%20Selection.html

This is the load (Speer 230 grain Short Barrel) I am leaning toward at this point. Detonics Combat Master 3.5-inch 1911's were designed to use 230 grain "Ball" ammunition at standard velocity. This Speer Short Barrel load is reported to be about 820 fps, IIRC. The other load I am considering is Federal 230 grain HST, but it has a slightly higher velocity, IIRC, and is not specifically designed for short barrels.

Advice is welcome...

[the Schwartz]

This is the load (Speer 230 grain Short Barrel) I am leaning toward at this point. Detonics Combat Master 3.5-inch 1911's were designed to use 230 grain "Ball" ammunition at standard velocity. This Speer Short Barrel load is reported to be about 820 fps, IIRC. The other load I am considering is Federal 230 grain HST, but it has a slightly higher velocity, IIRC, and is not specifically designed for short barrels.

Advice is welcome...

We tested the Federal .45ACP 230-grain HST JHP a few years back out of an HK45 (4.41" barrel) with excellent results—

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?32530-Predictive-tests-in-water&p=1255790&viewfull=1#post1255790

Expect a bit less expansion from the 3.77" barrel of the Glock 30; terminal performance from the shorter barrel (-0.64") should be similar.

Also tested the Speer 230-grain Gold Dot from a Ruger American Compact with a barrel length of 3.75 inches here—

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?32530-Predictive-tests-in-water&p=1491400&viewfull=1#post1491400

This test should provide a good indicator of what you can expect from your Glock 30.

[Glock17JHP]

Post deleted...

[Glock17JHP]

2 questions for anyone who might know...

1) Assuming Gold Dot Short Barrel #23975GD.230 grain .45 ACP goes 820 fps in a 4-inch barrel, what would the estimated velocity be in a 3.5-inch barrel?

And...

2) Assuming Federal HST P45HST2 230 grain .45 ACP goes 890 fps in a 5-inch barrel, what would the estimated velocity be in a 3.5-inch barrel?

Thank you in advance...

[Glock17JHP]

I'd be more worried about function in an old-school 1911 like the Detonics. IIRC, they were introduced when Silvertip was considered the hot setup.


Agree that function is very important. I want a hollow point load as close as possible to standard .45 ACP 230 grain FMJ @ about 830 fps as far as the same bullet weight, near the same velocity, and similar bullet profile where it contacts the feed ramp and chamber. So far, I am thinking Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel .45 ACP or Federal HST .45 ACP, as mentioned above.

BTW, I shot it recently with Winchester 230 grain FMJ, and function was flawless, recoil was no worse that a full-sized 1911, and accuracy was good, even at long distance (100 yards). It was very pleasant and fun.

[Ghost Dog]

I’m similarly curious, except regarding the best load for a HK45C rather than a Detonics, but similar barrel length (well, 3.9” on the HK45C)

Quality Polygonal barrel I believe will give a bit better velocity than what Revchuck posted, and most likely can treat it like a 4.25" standard lands and grooves Commander barrel. I wonder if you search online if you can find real world numbers.
Typically under 4.25" you need to be selective in .45

IE HST probably #1 it has a very low expansion threshold and great performance window (In ORGANIC GEL NOT always in CLEAR BALLISTICS), though Golden Sabers (FBI DATA), and probably Winchesters etc will all work well enough (for G30 3.77" I'd air more towards HST/Golden Saber/Gold Dot then Winchesters).
And it handles recoil so well 185+P (that is what Seal Team 6/Devgru may have been carrying in them FYI) or Critical Duty 220+p could be used as well if you have good recoil control.

[Ghost Dog]

Quick search HK pro for HK45C

"Others have posted;
HK45C with a "ProChrono Plus" chronograph. The .45 ACP Federal HST +P (P45HST1) I tested averaged 929 FPS (440 Ft/Lbs)

Winchester 230gr Ranger T (standard velocity, not the +P load,) through my HK 45C last week that averaged 886fps.


I believe the Polygonal rifling may give a slight velocity advantage.

More general numbers:
HK45C
Ammo Bullet Weight/Style Accuracy Velocity
Extreme Shok 185-gr. hollow point (HP) 3.25 inches 1,029 fps
Speer 230-gr. Gold Dot HP 2.50 inches 801 fps
Hornady 230-gr. TAP CQ 2.50 inches 827 fps
Winchester 230-gr. Bonded HP 3.25 inches 853 fps
Corbon 230-gr. +P HP 2.75 inches 937 fps
Federal 230-gr. +P EFMJ 2.25 inches 940 fps"

[Ghost Dog]

Quick Search on G30 velocities from different posters

"Out of a factory G30 barrel, standard velocity Speer Gold Dot 230 gr., 5 shot average of 808 fps, ES 46, SD 17. Out of the same barrel, Buffalo Bore 255 gr. hard cast flat nose +P, 5 shot average 923 fps, ES 25, SD 12. Fired over an Oehler 35 approximately 12 feet from the muzzle. Shot both loads out of a G30 KKM barrel and got almost the same results, with the Speer being 10 fps faster and the Buffalo Bore 4 fps faster."

"Ranger T 230 gr. chronos an average of about 850 out of my G36. Very pleased with that number. On the other hand, the Speer Gold 230 gr. was closer to the 800 mark."

"I have tested a couple of loads, they are all non plus P, speer GD 230gr Short barrel @762FPS, Win FMJ ball, @775fps, Win SXT @836fps, and Fed Hydro shok @825FPS, Rem Golden saber 775fps. Thats all I have for now. Hope it helps. MB"

[Glock17JHP]

Agree that function is very important. I want a hollow point load as close as possible to standard .45 ACP 230 grain FMJ @ about 830 fps as far as the same bullet weight, near the same velocity, and similar bullet profile where it contacts the feed ramp and chamber. So far, I am thinking Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel .45 ACP or Federal HST .45 ACP, as mentioned above.

BTW, I shot it recently with Winchester 230 grain FMJ, and function was flawless, recoil was no worse that a full-sized 1911, and accuracy was good, even at long distance (100 yards). It was very pleasant and fun.

I know, replying to myself looks strange, but I wanted to redirect to my last post...

After some research, speaking to others, and crunching numbers... I purchased a quantity of .45 Auto 230 grain Federal HST (P45HST2) for my Detonics Combat Master .45 Auto with 3.5 inch barrel. According to a very reliable source, this load still expands reliably from shorter barrels, even as short as 3.5 inches. I intend to water test this HST load in my Detonics.

Of interest, I expect, here are some of the numbers I got from my research/number crunching (P45HST2):
Federal HST average velocity from 5" barrel is 895.5 fps
Federal HST average velocity from 3.5" barrel (calculated estimate) should be 819.75 fps
3.5" barrel velocity is estimated to be about 91.5% of 5" barrel velocity

Based on all of these "calculated estimates", I only expect an 8.5% velocity drop when firing P45HST2 from a 3.5" barrel instead of a 5" barrel.

I intend to test this by firing this load from my 3.5" Detonics and also a 5" 1911.

[revchuck38]

FWIW, standard pressure 230-grain HST went 869 fps from the 4" barrel of my M&P45 Compact. I wouldn't get wrapped around the axle on this; different lots of ammo and different barrels introduce variables that influence velocity. You're in the right ballpark.

[the Schwartz]

FWIW, standard pressure 230-grain HST went 869 fps from the 4" barrel of my M&P45 Compact. I wouldn't get wrapped around the axle on this; different lots of ammo and different barrels introduce variables that influence velocity. You're in the right ballpark.

Absolutely.

The only way to know what a specific type or lot of ammunition will do in a specific gun is to fire it from that specific gun.

[Glock17JHP]

FWIW, standard pressure 230-grain HST went 869 fps from the 4" barrel of my M&P45 Compact. I wouldn't get wrapped around the axle on this; different lots of ammo and different barrels introduce variables that influence velocity. You're in the right ballpark.

That fits my data...

From 2008...
6" barrel 897 fps
5" barrel 895 fps
4" barrel 865 fps
3" barrel 787 fps
2" barrel 754 fps

From 2015...
5" barrel 896 fps
4" barrel 838 fps
3" barrel 789 fps

Not getting wrapped around the axle, just trying to calculate velocity loss by barrel length reduction.

[Glock17JHP]

Absolutely.

The only way to know what a specific type or lot of ammunition will do in a specific gun is to fire it from that specific gun.

Correct, that is why I intend to test P45HST2 in 3.5 and 5 inch pistols with my water test tank.

[Joe Mac]

Chrono results today from a new gen 5 G30:

50 degrees, light rain
Pro Chrono Ltd @10'

HST 230
High 847
Low 818
Avg 832
ES 29
SD 9

HST 230 +P
High 875
Low 840
Avg 858
ES 35
SD 10

These were 10-shot strings. A negligible average difference of 26 fps, with a negligible difference in recoil as well. If you handed me mags of either at random, I'm not sure I'd be able to reliably pick the +P. Both are noticeably warmer than AE or Lawman ball, but easy to handle in the G30.

[revchuck38]

A negligible average difference of 26 fps, with a negligible difference in recoil as well. If you handed me mags of either at random, I'm not sure I'd be able to reliably pick the +P. Both are noticeably warmer than AE or Lawman ball, but easy to handle in the G30.

When I chronoed standard velocity and +P in my M&P45 Compact, the velocity difference was 27 fps and I couldn't really tell the difference in perceived recoil either.

[Bucky]

Chrono results today from a new gen 5 G30:

50 degrees, light rain
Pro Chrono Ltd @10'

HST 230
High 847
Low 818
Avg 832
ES 29
SD 9

HST 230 +P
High 875
Low 840
Avg 858
ES 35
SD 10

These were 10-shot strings. A negligible average difference of 26 fps, with a negligible difference in recoil as well. If you handed me mags of either at random, I'm not sure I'd be able to reliably pick the +P. Both are noticeably warmer than AE or Lawman ball, but easy to handle in the G30.

I remember comparing these two rounds in my early gen 3 (or gen 2.5 as some like to call it). I remember a noticeable recoil difference. In fact the only time I ran the so called 9 round magazine with 9+1, only the +P round could cycle the first round, due to how tight the. Magazine / rounds were pushing up on the slide.

After the above incident, I declared those magazines 8 rounders, and everything works fine.

[revchuck38]

I remember comparing these two rounds in my early gen 3 (or gen 2.5 as some like to call it). I remember a noticeable recoil difference. In fact the only time I ran the so called 9 round magazine with 9+1, only the +P round could cycle the first round, due to how tight the. Magazine / rounds were pushing up on the slide.

After the above incident, I declared those magazines 8 rounders, and everything works fine.

My M&P45s run fine with 10+1, even with my hardball-equivalent handloads. My reload magazine has only nine rounds in it because it requires a really hard smack to seat it with ten, and if I need to reload, I don't need that noise.

[Bucky]

My M&P45s run fine with 10+1, even with my hardball-equivalent handloads. My reload magazine has only nine rounds in it because it requires a really hard smack to seat it with ten, and if I need to reload, I don't need that noise.

My so called Glock 9 round mags were so hard to get that 9th round in, we (yes we) had to push the magazine against a wall. You’d never seat that under stress.

The only other factory the magazine I’ve declared less than advertised is the Shield Plus “13” round magazine. They are 12 round magazines.

I’ve run an M&P .45 in a few matches. They do seat tight. Downloading the reload mag is a wise move.