School Me on Knife Points

[Stephanie B]

So Cold Steel is making some "Mini-Leatherneck" knives (https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2021/06/24/cold-steel-mini-leatherneck/) with three different styles of point: Tanto, spearpoint and clip-point.

I can sort of see that if one needs to get all stabby, that the spearpoint might be a good one. But what are the advantages and disadvantages of these different points?

[blues]

First off, why would you want any of these? Is there something you are looking for a fixed blade for?

Americanized tanto is the least "practical". It has a reinforced tip for piercing, (allegedly), but is more of a hassle to sharpen and not the best for general use.

The spear is a good general use pattern, (not necessarily in this incarnation), which has a useful tip which is well supported so not fragile while still be practical for most uses.

The clip has a sharp tip and good amount of belly for various usages. It also has a higher grind than the the spear which means you should be able to have a thinner edge and also a longer lasting knife, assuming it gets sharpened on a regular basis.

Of the three I see in the image, the clip looks like the best choice for all around use...unless you have some specific usage in mind...like stabbing car doors or ninjas in body armor.

(Personally, I think you could do better elsewhere...but that's a different matter.)

[Trooper224]

The spear point is good if your focus is a fighting, stabby, stabby knife. The clip point is better for an all around use knife. The tanto is a gimmic, just like most of Cold Steel's line.

[Guerrero]

Pointy part goes in the bad guy.

[BillSWPA]

The question that Blues asked is very much worth considering: what is your intended use? I would add: does the sheath support your intended use, or if not, is an appropriate aftermarket sheath available? With fixed blades, the carry system often impacts the overall usefulness more than the knife itself.

Tip strength is likely to be impacted the most by increasing the thinnest dimension - the thickness. Tanto points attempt to increase strength by increasing width, which is not the thinnest dimension. Thinning the width would seem to improve penetration.

I am a fan of spear points for the balance of tip strength and reduced tip width. However, others above made good points about the other tip designs.

The last time I had to use a knife in an emergency, I had to work the tip in between my son's finger and a ribbon that he has managed to twist/knot around it. I really appreciate a thin blade width at the tip for the ability to do such things.

Regarding Cold Steel, they provide a very good product at a good price. Unlike many other companies, they have historically been willing to put it to the test and show you the results. Having spent much money on knives which turned out to be less than their marketing hype, I really appreciate this, and that is why the knife in my pocket as I type this is from Cold Steel.

[Totem Polar]

As unrepentantly knifey as I am, there really isn’t much that I can say that blues either didn’t, or will.

#I’mwithhim

[GearFondler]

I don't knife fight so I find full guards like those feature to be detrimental to my needs... The top guard only serves to get in the way of my thumb.

[blues]

Bill, I don't know if the new Cold Steel is the same as Lynn Thompson's Cold Steel. So there is that to consider as well.

[Suvorov]

My experience (which is very small compared to others here) is that Tanto points are the Best point you can have - until you actually need to use it for anything useful. But they do look cool and my Emerson folder is part of my retirement plan.

After my silly love affair with the Tanto in my 20s, I have reached the point where the Clip and especially related Drop point are what I look for and buy. They are useful for almost all everyday knife used and should I ever have to use it in a fight and loose - it won’t be the point that gets me killed in the street.

Of the blades shown I guess it comes down to purpose. If was going to buy one for looks than I’d go with the Tanto, if I was going to use it as a hunting/field knife, I’d get the Clip point. I guess if I was going to channel my inner Applegate - I’d get the spear point.

ETA - the Tanto point shown looks pretty sturdy. I have a few Tantos that have long sharp profiles that give me the feeling they are too fragile for rough use. I like my Tanto points on the blunt side like this one, but that might make them less effective against ninjas.

[1slow]

I tend to like clip points.

Tantos vary a lot.
DB Strider is a sharp pry bar.
Osaraku points (James Williams Designs) are quite stabby and penetrate with little effort.

Tip strength and easy stabbing are opposites.

I like the Joe Watson Kidon well for piercing. Sort of a single edge clip point.

[Stephanie B]

First off, why would you want any of these? Is there something you are looking for a fixed blade for?

Actually, I'm not buying any of them. I've got a fixed-blade Buck knife and a Bowie, both from the 1980s. And I was gifted with a K-bar. All of them are in drawers, someplace.

My question was more of curiosity. The tanto point always seemed kind of off to me.

[Stephanie B]

Regarding Cold Steel, they provide a very good product at a good price.

I have one of their Russian entrenching tools in my car for emergency purposes.

[BobM]

I have one of their Russian entrenching tools in my car for emergency purposes.

I keep a GI tri-fold in my car but I’ve given the Cold Steel shovels as gifts for the same reason

[Duelist]

All three of these are fighting/defense blade designs, being miniaturized into 3.5” blades. 3.5” Bowies (this clip point) seem ... pointless. And the chisel point tanto is of limited utility. Hollow ground blades annoy me, especially sabre grinds as on the Bowie.

The only one of those I would buy would be the dagger (spear point with two full edges), because the handle and guard are dumb for the other two blade designs, especially with blades this short. Maybe “awkwardly designed” is a more eloquent way to put that. A small dagger has some utility, but otherwise, a single edge leaf blade or drop point with a small single guard are much more useful in a small, 3-4” blade sheath knife. Historical traditional knife designs from cultures around the world seem to support that concept.

This forged custom is what I carried every time I deployed or went overseas somewhere not in Europe:
73303

[Wondering Beard]

My question was more of curiosity. The tanto point always seemed kind of off to me.

And you'd be right. It's the American Tanto point and doesn't correspond to what the Japanese created:

https://new.uniquejapan.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/ujta030-Yoshishige-Tanto-Unique-Japan.jpg


It is my understanding that the American Tanto point is derivative of the point of the Katana (Yokote is, I think, the proper word)

https://www.sword-buyers-guide.com/images/what-is-yokote.jpg

It is designed that way to reinforce the point of the sword when trying to penetrate through hard stuff so that it doesn't break. Or at least, that's what was explained to me.


I'm not sure who, on these shores, started making blades with that American derivation of the point. The earliest one I know is Emerson with his CQC6:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/5_versions_of_the_CQC-6_knife.jpg

West coast SEALs supposedly liked the design a lot and bought a bunch, so the design did something right for them, but I don't know what that was.


The above is what I've gotten to understand, over the years, about the development of the American tanto. If someone with more knowledge knows better, don't hesitate to correct me.



P.S: all the photos are off the internet.

[Joe in PNG]

Maybe it's because I'm a child of the 80's who read too much Soldier of Fortune, but I was really into tanto for a while, even buying a CS Recon Tanto from a magazine ad.
Years later, I bought my first CRKT M16 tanto folder as my regular carry knife, and... yeah. Use kind of killed it for me. Not exactly useful for most things, really. I've since switched to the CRKT Ken Onion with it's more traditional blade shape, and like it a ton better.

[That Guy]

Due to all these negative opinions on Americanized tanto points, the former bachelor me would like to point out that those work really well as pizza cutters. :) (I used to have this pretty big, quite cheap CRKT fixed blade... fighting knife, I suppose? that I used specifically for that purpose. Because I sure wasn't using it for anything else.)

[314159]

Warning: PF Thread drift.

School me on why so few "fighting" knives lack any kind of hand guard, even if only on the bottom. Duelist's obviously being not included.

The act of thrusting against a potentially impenetrable obstacle with your bare fingers ready to slide forward gives me the willies. Yet many many tactical-ish knives have a vestigial hand guard or none at all, particularly folders. Since I haven't carried a survival knife since I left the Navy when we still had 15 carriers... Is there something in the way "real" knife fighting technique rarely requires a thrust I'm missing?

[blues]

I'll be in my bunker if anyone needs me...

[Clusterfrack]

I'll admit to liking modified Tanto blades better than drop points. I also like Wharncliffes. They are both good shapes for cutting things and poking things. The modified Tanto is just a little more durable at the point.

[Caballoflaco]

I don’t carry one anymore, but I did find the modified tanto point to be useful for construction/carpentry type chores. The first edge near the tip is handy to use for chisel-like tasks and the point or L of the edge is useful for tasks like cutting a pattern out of paper or cardboard. I don’t do as much of that kind of work anymore, but reminiscing kinda makes me miss my old benchmade mini Stryker, it was a good tool I carried and used daily for over a decade.

[Duelist]

Warning: PF Thread drift.

School me on why so few "fighting" knives lack any kind of hand guard, even if only on the bottom. Duelist's obviously being not included.

The act of thrusting against a potentially impenetrable obstacle with your bare fingers ready to slide forward gives me the willies. Yet many many tactical-ish knives have a vestigial hand guard or none at all, particularly folders. Since I haven't carried a survival knife since I left the Navy when we still had 15 carriers... Is there something in the way "real" knife fighting technique rarely requires a thrust I'm missing?

The following are my impressions and observations, and may be completely wrong, but I don’t think I’m terribly far off: In the very vast majority of cases, very little “knife fighting” goes on in the “real world.” If someone gets shanked, they are not usually in a fight but are being murdered, or were murdering someone and got stabbed/cut with the nearest handy possible blade, whether a cheap POS kitchen knife, the pocket knife they may have had, or a screwdriver. Slashing attacks happen, of course, but stabbing tends to be more effective if killing is the goal.

Most folding “tactical” knives are primarily designed to look cool and separate people from their money. I admit to liking looking at them as much as anyone else, because they look cool, but I mostly don’t have any. IMHO, the sheath knives that prompted @Stephanie to start this thread are similar in concept. For folding knives, in most cases, finger guards are not a priority since they make the knife bigger and more awkward to produce from the pocket, being another thing sticking out the side. There used to be a traditional pattern folding knife that had a collapsing finger guard, but I haven’t seen a new one of that design in a very long time. It always seemed a little bit of an affectation and a bit fragile, to me. If you want a knife designed for sticking in belligerent humans, the first step in designing that is to forget about making a folding knife, IMHO. Folding knives limit size, add mechanical complexity, and introduce weaknesses to the tool: holes and hinges and locking devices that can fail. If I decide I need to have a blade as a potential weapon to backup my gun, I pick a stout sheath knife, as pictured above. If I decide I need a locking blade folder as a cutting tool, I pick a Spyderco with a full-flat ground blade and plain edge because I find that the blades cut well, edges are easy to maintain, have ergonomically designed handles with well-executed choils to keep my fingers where they belong, and the locks work well. Stabbing someone isn’t part of the equation.

Well-designed folding knives are designed primarily to do what knives do most of the time: open packages, cut up food, and do the cutting parts of work (cutting wood, trimming bushes, prepping fire making material, food prep, etc). Very rarely is a guard included in that for the reasons mentioned above. Even in combat zones, most of the work done with knives is the same as at home: in other words, not cutting/stabbing people (even though that may still happen). The vast majority of the cutting stuff I actually did on deployments was accomplished with a basic SAK.

The man who made the knife I pictured above is a student of Ed Fowler, who insists that his blades all have real finger guards to prevent the exact problem you are describing. Many hunting/skinning/work knives have vestigial or no finger guard, because they can get in the way, but Mr. Fowler felt that cutting your dominant hand while doing your work (whatever that might be) because your hand slid up into the edge was detrimental to your health and getting the job done. But, he designed mostly single-side finger guards because he believes the top one (except in the case of a double edged dagger) was intended to lock or block the blade of a opponent in some knife-fighting fantasy, but mostly just gets in the way of actually using the knife.

TL;DR, and this is just my opinion with no offense intended: folding tactical knives are designed the way they (no guard, blade designs, etc) due to a lack of clarity of thought on what knives are actually for and how they are actually used.

[314159]

"Most folding “tactical” knives are primarily designed to look cool and separate people from their money."

I should have gone with one of my favorite truisms. "(Fill in name of profession here) have boat payments too."

The mystery is solved by placing "Knife makers" in the sentence.

This is oddly comforting to me.

[BobLoblaw]

My only gripe with Tantos involves sharpening them or more accurately, attempting to sharpen, fucking up the transition, and reprofiling. Tiny brains can only handle so much.

[blues]

Duelist

You'll appreciate this beauty from another former Ed Fowler apprentice, master smith Rick Dunkerley. (I bought this years ago from a bladeforums member in TX as I recall.)

It's a beauty. (Mokume guard, forged 52100)

73343

[rd62]

Duelist

You'll appreciate this beauty from another former Ed Fowler apprentice, master smith Rick Dunkerley. (I bought this years ago from a bladeforums member in TX as I recall.)

It's a beauty. (Mokume guard, forged 52100)

73343

That looks like a beautiful and functional knife.

[Duelist]

Duelist

You'll appreciate this beauty from another former Ed Fowler apprentice, master smith Rick Dunkerley. (I bought this years ago from a bladeforums member in TX as I recall.)

It's a beauty. (Mokume guard, forged 52100)

73343

Yes! That is lovely and appears very functional.

[BillSWPA]

Regarding use of a knife, SouthNarc has made the point on TPI that a knife is far more likely to be used against unarmed multiple attackers than a single attacker armed with a knife.

Although I carry a knife at least partially to serve as a backup to my gun(s), the times I actually needed my knife had nothing to do with fighting. One was described above in this thread, and another was cutting my son free from a car seat harness with a stuck buckle.

Anyone who has kids knows how much they like escalators, and escalator injuries from stuck shoe laces and other loose clothing are surprisingly common. A few weeks ago, my wife was at the gym, and informed a lady on a treadmill that her shoe was untied. That lade did not respond kindly to my wife and did not tie her shoe. Within about 30 seconds, the shoelace became caught in the treadmill, causing the idiot to fall. All of this leads me to the conclusion that the design of the blade and point should be determined more by the possible need to work in close proximity to another person safely. If being used for defense, the attacker is unlikely to notice the finer points differentiating a clip point from a tanto point.

[1slow]

Warning: PF Thread drift.

School me on why so few "fighting" knives lack any kind of hand guard, even if only on the bottom. Duelist's obviously being not included.

The act of thrusting against a potentially impenetrable obstacle with your bare fingers ready to slide forward gives me the willies. Yet many many tactical-ish knives have a vestigial hand guard or none at all, particularly folders. Since I haven't carried a survival knife since I left the Navy when we still had 15 carriers... Is there something in the way "real" knife fighting technique rarely requires a thrust I'm missing?

Two things help keep your fingers off your blade, shape, including guard and texture.
Texture only works well in a firm grip. If you are cold, wet, damaged, graying out etc…… grip may not be firm enough for just texture to help.
A canoe/choora shaped handle and or guard helps keep your hand in place even with a less than firm grip.

A lot of old daggers had handles and butt caps designed to keep your hand on the handle.
The trick is getting the right shape and texture without getting too bulky or limiting the use of the knife.

I have wood and other training dummies and have tested my preferences.

I like having both shape and texture on a handle.

[BillSWPA]

Deleted because I did not think my post worked properly the first time.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BillSWPA]

A retired police Lieutenant on another forum pointed out that when they are looking for stabbing suspects, the first thing they look for is cuts on the hands. The context of his post was advocating reverse grip with the thumb over the end of the knife. However, it is also a very good reason to have a handle that is properly designed to retain the hand on the knife. The number of knives I have seen that are suboptimal in this regard is disturbing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[momano]

This is the reason I like Spyderco folders- specifically the ones with pronounced spine cusps, choils, and jimping- safer for me.73403

[Chuck Whitlock]

Regarding guards, profiles, and whatnot, at first blush I just assumed that Cold Steel was trying for a 'modernized' miniaturized USMC Ka-Bar..... with a couple other blade styles as options.

[PNWTO]

Osaraku points (James Williams Designs) are quite stabby and penetrate with little effort.

While a little too-weeby my “big” NPE knife is the hissatsu folder and I like the Williams design a lot. I’ve been eyeing the Williams/Lionsteel folders for awhile.

Outside of that particular design I have little desire for any tanto-ish things.

[Jim Watson]

Might the double edged "spear point" constitute a banned "dirk or dagger" in some places?

[Chuck Whitlock]

Might the double edged "spear point" constitute a banned "dirk or dagger" in some places?

Almost certainly.

[noguns]

Thoughts on the reverse tango style blade like a benchmade 940? Useful ? I’ve never seen one in person.

[Clusterfrack]

Thoughts on the reverse tango style blade like a benchmade 940? Useful ? I’ve never seen one in person.

It's one of the few Benchmade blade profiles I really like:
73943

[Suvorov]

It's one of the few Benchmade blade profiles I really like:
73943


I like that! The edge looks useful for everyday cutting tasks while the point looks nice and stabby yet robust. Almost like a drop point and an American tanto had a love child.

[RevolverRob]

My only gripe with Tantos involves sharpening them or more accurately, attempting to sharpen, fucking up the transition, and reprofiling. Tiny brains can only handle so much.

Maybe it's just because I'm a dirty heathen who does it wrong*, but I don't bother trying to sharpen the transition area. Instead, I treat the tip and belly as distinct edges to sharpen. Which makes the tanto a far more utilitarian blade for me, because when I use and dull the tip doing mundane things, I can easily touch it up with a strop or stone.

I find it one sharpens up to the transition on both sides, it results in a nice pointy transition that is sharp and also has a slight hook to it that allows for easy pull cuts.

Count me as one of the people that views the American Tanto as a useful design. But I also find wharncliffes useful and a lot of folks don't.

*Unpossible, since we know I never do anything wrong. :rolleyes:

[Clusterfrack]

Maybe it's just because I'm a dirty heathen who does it wrong*, but I don't bother trying to sharpen the transition area. Instead, I treat the tip and belly as distinct edges to sharpen. Which makes the tanto a far more utilitarian blade for me, because when I use and dull the tip doing mundane things, I can easily touch it up with a strop or stone.

I find it one sharpens up to the transition on both sides, it results in a nice pointy transition that is sharp and also has a slight hook to it that allows for easy pull cuts.

Count me as one of the people that views the American Tanto as a useful design. But I also find wharncliffes useful and a lot of folks don't.

*Unpossible, since we know I never do anything wrong. :rolleyes:

All these things...

[Clusterfrack]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210706/badc5cadd1f993d42f66b8d2b8b1621e.jpg

[RevolverRob]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210706/badc5cadd1f993d42f66b8d2b8b1621e.jpg

Ohh...man I've debated about the flipper models for awhile, because "they so ugly". But now I get it...a little mini-guard.

Hmmm...