Talk me off the ledge, please (P320/P365/Glock content)

[HeavyDuty]

I’m fully invested in Glocks for defensive pistols, and have been for years (1993-2006, 2011-present.) I know how they work, am comfortable with my ability to maintain them, and shoot most of them well. I have too damn many of them, actually. My daily carry currently rotates between a 43, a 26.5, a 27.5 and occasionally when I’m feeling trendy a 19.5 MOS with RMR.

I’ve generally ignored the SIG striker guns because of their engineering churn, unavailability of something like a SCD and the greatly increased parts complexity.

So, of course I bought a SIG. It was a total impulse purchase - a P320 X5 Legion - and it will be a range toy.

I live near the SIG Academy and their pro shop and attended a P320 test drive event where, much to my surprise, I found I shot a few different P320s and P365s quite well. While I was there (twice in the last week) I’ve also handled (but not shot) the XCompact. The price they offered on the X5 Legion after I shot it really well was more than I could resist.

Now I’m wondering if I should move over to SIGs for defensive guns. I could easily get by with a total of three or so SIGs for defense - a XCompact (taking the place of the 19), a P365 (replacing the 43) and a P365XL (replacing the 48 I currently rarely carry.)

I have too many guns, but the others are really all toys - the Glocks are what stay loaded and are trusted for carry. If I go SIG, it will be all in and the Glocks I keep would become range toys.

I would only consider SIGs with manual safeties for defense (the X5 doesn’t count, but I may add a MS for consistency) so I’d probably have to build the XCompact up from parts using a M17/M18 FCU. The P365s are already available with what appears from my handling to be a usable manual safety.

Am I nuts for considering a move from a pistol series that is about as simple to maintain as a factory produced zipgun to one that has a gazillion parts and a spotty history of continuous product correction?

[APS-PF]

I did it... switched to MS 365 and MS 320 for two years. Shot them better than my Glocks though I can shoot Glocks certainly well enough for typical civilian concealed carry.
But I felt like a dirty whore the whole time selling out to faster drill times that aren't necessarily needed for civilian carry. Indian MIM rinky-dink FCUs, SIGs eff-U on the 320 drop issues and just general shittyness since Cohen.
Unfortunately I had stupidly sold all my Glocks after a year in the experiment and had to buy some back. Not all bad b/c I replaced Gen3/4 with Gen5 and like them much better.

So I say you should try it if you want to but don't sell your Glocks. Also consider that you may never miss your manual safety during practice, but as I read on here somewhere, if something else happens during your practiced draw stroke you can miss it.

BTW, my 320s ran fine. With my 365s I did experience failures to feed with 115 GD and 147HST when using the manual slide release method. Magazine springs get tired sooner abd start causing feed issues with HPs.

[Up1911Fan]

Both? I carry a G19 with RMR and TLR7. When I need something smaller it's a P365.

[Leroy Suggs]

You know the old saying. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
I would pay heed to it.

[JCN]

I started on Glocks.

Current compete with CZ and the grip angle translates over to the P365X.

I don’t own a 320 and chose to do a Shadow Systems MR920 instead of a G19.

Basically a Glock but with a similar grip angle to the CZ.

[Clusterfrack]

HeavyDuty, I went down that rabbit hole and clawed my way back out, about $2000 poorer. As you already know, the p320 has some design 'features' that make it a PIA to detail strip. The product line has numerous, partially incompatible versions, and Sig continues to complicate the system with no end in sight. Some aspects, like a non-replaceable ejector that can be bent by magazine over insertion (destroying the FCU) are especially troubling.

That said, I know a bunch of serious competitors, and LEOs who are very happy with their p320s. The guns shoot very well, and are quite reliable. The ergos work well for a lot of people, and the p320 seems easier to shoot well than a Glock.

The p365 seems to be a very good gun, and I think it's a more mature design.

JCN, that's interesting what you say about grip angle. In my hands the Shadow2 and P-07/09 feel more similar to a Glock than a Sig. I can go back and forth between Glock and CZ with no index issues. p320 grip angles are more 1911-like to me, and that feels weird because I'm not used to it. I have never handled the 365XL. Is the grip angle different from the 320?

[claymore504]

I went down the same rabbit hole as Clusterfrack. I had been through several different striker handguns over the years, starting with Gen 3 Glocks, and had settled on teh FNS model for carry and home. Then I looked into the P320 and ended up going all in. Got a sub-compact 9, Compact 9, X-Carry, M17 and Full szie tac-ops 9mm. Then the "upgrade" happened. I really had no issue with sending all my guns back. I just got tired of constant changes and in the end decided to go DA/SA leading me to CZ and Beretta. I kept the M17 and sold off the rest of my P320s along with mags and holsters. I speak with many LEO that acrry and love them along with others as well. They do shoot great, but just not for me. I would really think it over before stepping away from a pistol you have used for years, know very well and trust.

[guymontag]

I’m not a fan of the 320, but have you tested them (Glock vs Sig) head to head over several range sessions? With different courses of fire? Someone can dig up information regarding the “new gun” phenomena or the “honeymoon” period that many can experience when switching pistols for a brief period of time. I’ve fallen for it too, and came out poorer because of it. Like Brian Enos says - don’t be deluded.

I shoot metal frame CZ’s currently, and it was a circular path away from them and then back to them.

[GlockenSpiel]

Is there something you don't like about the Glocks that the Sigs would improve upon? I.e. you don't shoot the Glocks as well, you really want a manual safety anyway, etc.?

Also, be careful drawing comparisons between big comfy guns set up for the range and carry guns. Not really fair to compare your smaller Glocks to that.

[HeavyDuty]

I’m not a fan of the 320, but have you tested them (Glock vs Sig) head to head over several range sessions? With different courses of fire? Someone can dig up information regarding the “new gun” phenomena or the “honeymoon” period that many can experience when switching pistols for a brief period of time. I’ve fallen for it too, and came out poorer because of it. Like Brian Enos says - don’t be deluded.

I shoot metal frame CZ’s currently, and it was a circular path away from them and then back to them.

I are an analyst. If this ever happens, it would be after a long period of side by side shooting. I’m not about to dump the Glocks and replace them.


Is there something you don't like about the Glocks that the Sigs would improve upon? I.e. you don't shoot the Glocks as well, you really want a manual safety anyway, etc.?

Also, be careful drawing comparisons between big comfy guns set up for the range and carry guns. Not really fair to compare your smaller Glocks to that.

The trigger and overall feel. And it may very well end up where P320s are my range toys and I stay with Glock for serious social use.

[guymontag]

I are an analyst. If this ever happens, it would be after a long period of side by side shooting. I’m not about to dump the Glocks and replace them.

Then with that answer, I’d respond that you aren’t nuts for considering a change.

[JCN]

JCN, that's interesting what you say about grip angle. In my hands the Shadow2 and P-07/09 feel more similar to a Glock than a Sig. I can go back and forth between Glock and CZ with no index issues. p320 grip angles are more 1911-like to me, and that feels weird because I'm not used to it. I have never handled the 365XL. Is the grip angle different from the 320?

I wonder if that is somewhat affected by our irons versus dots outfitting?

Even though it wouldn’t seem to matter, to me it seems to. With a large tall window, I am holding a gun lower than I would with irons in relation to my dominant eye (which seems to change my angle of presentation).

I have also found that a large dot window helps correct grip angle differences with less mental adjustment than irons.

I was surprised when the P938 SAS pointed so automatically for me too.


https://youtu.be/Xtq0qQTh8MQ

[psalms144.1]

The P320 is a single action only pistol with no manual safety (generally). That's why the trigger is "so nice." Is that what you really want to carry on a daily basis? The P365 is a neat little gun, but, actually too small in my hands. The P365 FEELS great, but again the grip is SO small I really can't get any of my support hand onto it.

I'm always looking for something to replace the G19 that I dislike everything about, but continues to be the best compromise of reliability, accuracy, size efficiency, and ease of maintenance. The P320 ain't it... For a smaller gun, I'm currently very interested in the Shield Plus - it falls between the P365 and XL in size, and 10+1 is plenty for my needs when I'm carrying an off duty or deep concealment gun.

If you want to really go down the rabbit hole - pick up a Dan Wesson 9mm 1911, shoot it, and wonder what you've been doing wasting your life with plastic guns... :D

[Trooper224]

You're a dumbass if you do. How's that?

[MK11]

Glock makes the better service pistol, Sig makes the better subcompact. Choose accordingly.

[Clusterfrack]

With a large tall window, I am holding a gun lower than I would with irons in relation to my dominant eye (which seems to change my angle of presentation)

I agree. The difference is noticeable to me, and I don't like it. (Just not what I'm used to.)

[HCountyGuy]

Am I nuts for considering a move from a pistol series that is about as simple to maintain as a factory produced zipgun to one that has a gazillion parts and a spotty history of continuous product correction?

In my opinion, yes you are.

Given all the information available in this thread (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?43653-New-2-July-2020-SIG-P320-Lawsuit-and-P320-Concerns) coupled with Sig’s numerous QC issues and shady practices, I couldn’t in good faith recommend the P320.

Even still, a P365X with a 507K is a pretty damn nice summer carry gun...

[TheNewbie]

The P320 is a single action only pistol with no manual safety (generally). That's why the trigger is "so nice." Is that what you really want to carry on a daily basis? The P365 is a neat little gun, but, actually too small in my hands. The P365 FEELS great, but again the grip is SO small I really can't get any of my support hand onto it.

I'm always looking for something to replace the G19 that I dislike everything about, but continues to be the best compromise of reliability, accuracy, size efficiency, and ease of maintenance. The P320 ain't it... For a smaller gun, I'm currently very interested in the Shield Plus - it falls between the P365 and XL in size, and 10+1 is plenty for my needs when I'm carrying an off duty or deep concealment gun.

If you want to really go down the rabbit hole - pick up a Dan Wesson 9mm 1911, shoot it, and wonder what you've been doing wasting your life with plastic guns... :D



I looked over a Gen 5 Glock 23 yesterday. It felt great in the hand, and the trigger was nice. As nice as that trigger was, it was too nice for me. I know you’re talking about the Sig trigger, but I’ve experienced the same thing on Gen 5 Glocks.


Really wish Glock offered a quality TS. If it had a good TS, I would buy it.


Heavy, no doubt your mechanical skills, and shooting skills, are better than mine. Even with top mechanical ability, I don’t see the P320 being worth the squeeze. The Glocks work and are just so simple. Unless I shot them so much better that it made me a safer gun handler because I could put the billets exactly where I wanted them every time.


Just my opinion.

[HeavyDuty]

The P320 is a single action only pistol with no manual safety (generally). That's why the trigger is "so nice." Is that what you really want to carry on a daily basis? The P365 is a neat little gun, but, actually too small in my hands. The P365 FEELS great, but again the grip is SO small I really can't get any of my support hand onto it.

I'm always looking for something to replace the G19 that I dislike everything about, but continues to be the best compromise of reliability, accuracy, size efficiency, and ease of maintenance. The P320 ain't it... For a smaller gun, I'm currently very interested in the Shield Plus - it falls between the P365 and XL in size, and 10+1 is plenty for my needs when I'm carrying an off duty or deep concealment gun.

If you want to really go down the rabbit hole - pick up a Dan Wesson 9mm 1911, shoot it, and wonder what you've been doing wasting your life with plastic guns... :D

As I mentioned, I’d only be considering manual safety versions even if they had to be built up from FCUs. And I’ve been down the 1911 hole - I was mostly 1911 from the late 70s until the early 90s, and still keep them around. I’m not comfortable with them as threat management tools anymore.

[psalms144.1]

As I mentioned, I’d only be considering manual safety versions even if they had to be built up from FCUs. And I’ve been down the 1911 hole - I was mostly 1911 from the late 70s until the early 90s, and still keep them around. I’m not comfortable with them as threat management tools anymore.Understand the concern about the 1911 for threat management. Only wondering what's different between a 1911 and a SAO striker with a safety? Take a look at the exploded parts diagrams on the P320, specifically the miniscule size of the striker-foot-to-sear engagement, and consider that it's a mass-produced pistol.

[Lon]

You're a dumbass if you do. How's that?

Could not have said it better myself.

[Caballoflaco]

As I mentioned, I’d only be considering manual safety versions even if they had to be built up from FCUs. And I’ve been down the 1911 hole - I was mostly 1911 from the late 70s until the early 90s, and still keep them around. I’m not comfortable with them as threat management tools anymore.


Understand the concern about the 1911 for threat management. Only wondering what's different between a 1911 and a SAO striker with a safety? Take a look at the exploded parts diagrams on the P320, specifically the miniscule size of the striker-foot-to-sear engagement, and consider that it's a mass-produced pistol.

I’m with psalms144 on this one, I don’t see a difference between a 320 and 1911 when it comes to people management, unless you had a 2lb trigger job on all of your 1911’s. It’s also my belief that a 4.5-5lb trigger with some take up on a 1911 is still a better than most any handgun trigger out there.

If you can’t tell, I’m on the 2lb triggers with no takeup are stupid on anything except a bench rifle that’s never loaded unless it’s sitting in a vice pointed down range.

[Duelist]

That seems like a lot of money and time to invest to end up back where you already are: with a full complement of carry and match guns and gear that are all fully vetted by burning through a bunch of (really) expensive ammunition.

I’m not convinced that the SIGs are better mousetraps. So, I would enjoy the new X5 you got a deal on, use the Glocks for everything that you are using them for, and buy ammo instead of new guns.

Plus, no SCD, so the manual safety choice is wise. But I stopped carrying MS guns, and won’t start again.

[call_me_ski]

I currently shoot Glock and outside of short stints with other platforms it has been my primary pistol of choice for the last decade. I currently have a 17 G5 MOS that works great. Not that it is perfect but has performed well for me. I have stuck with Glock because they are simple and I generally hate being the special snow flake. However in my area the winds change, they are a blow in’. In my recent red dot course, of 25 shooters I was the only one not shooting a P320. I have become the snowflake. I was also the only one that had a problem with optics mounting working loose during the class when using a 509T and CHPWS plate.

I have been exposed to the P320 and have seen quite a few of them run fairly hard. They have problems but so do Glocks and everything else. I agree that the ejector being part of the FCU is a horrible design decision. I have also never seen it be a problem in person. I have seen a pair of P320s have a trigger that failed to reset in cold weather. However my own previous 17 G5 had the trigger components completely degraded to the point of having a gritty 10 pound trigger across the first 2000 rounds and accompanying dry fire. Cleaning didn’t help and the parts had to be replaced. Haven’t had that problem again. My sole remaining concern with the P320 is safety. I carry a 19x appendix and I just don’t trust a P320 to fill that roll.

I have had a pair of P320 compacts that were gifted to me at different times in the past but have sold them for one reason or another. I just picked up P320 Pro LDC to see how it works out for me. Gross, I know.

One thing of note is that while pistol-forum is very skeptical of the P320 and sig in general, in most other places, the P320 enjoys a good reputation.

[newyork]

Take it from someone that doesn’t get to shoot a lot, gets antsy and leaves glock over and over and then sucks with every new platform…stick with Glock, or whatever platform you have run for years. Unless you’re getting free ammo and hours of range time.

[JSGlock34]

I want to like my SIG M17.

I just don’t trust it.

[Nephrology]

Started with glocks - still have glocks. Don't want other handguns. Was once vaguely tempted, now well over that phase.

The very first 9mm I ever bought was a Gen 3 Glock 19 that is currently getting milled for an RMR cut so I can keep shooting it.

[Gadfly]

I have been exposed to the P320 and have seen quite a few of them run fairly hard. They have problems but so do Glocks and everything else. I agree that the ejector being part of the FCU is a horrible design decision. I have also never seen it be a problem in person.

73309

I have lived it. Had a compact grip module and slammed a 17 round mag into the frame on a slide lock reload. Bent the ejector up far enough that the slide would not close. I remediate by removing the mag and beating the slide closed. Re inserted and racked and the slide would not close without me palm smacking it multiple times. Which made it a single shot pistol. Fire, it would eject and on attempting to chamber, the slide would drag on the bent up ejector and not go into battery. Palm smack into battery, fire, repeat the issue. But I did manage to finish the course of fire, one round at a time.

In that pic I had already began to bend the ejector back down on the corner of a table before I decided to snap a photo.

I sent it to Sig, and they replaced the whole pistol.

Now I just use the full size grip module and avoid the compact grip…. Which kind of defeats the modularity thing I wanted.

But I still carry a 365 daily and have a 320 for when I want a full size gun on duty. I just realize it’s limitations and work around them.

[Yung]

I'd rather you spend the money on training and ammunition. You'd stand to gain more improvements there than whatever you would gain from changing to a different pistol line.

[HeavyDuty]

Y’all are making a strong case for staying the course with a Glock.

[pangloss]

Y’all are making a strong case for staying the course with a Glock.

My vote is to forget buying another P320 and try some different fun pistols. I'm edging closer to buying a Steyr M9-A2 MF just out of curiosity. Would you rather have three more P320s, or three more other pistols that have some strange appeal? I still only carry Glocks and consider myself more of a shooter than a collector, but I confess to loving the concept of "gun library."

If you decide to try Sig, I think you should buy the gun that you would carry the most first and run it pretty hard for six or eight months. Many of my little collection of pistols are similar in size to the Glock 19, so if I do ever find "The Pistol" for me, I won't have to hope that the compact works as well for me as the service size model.

Having said all of that, there's absolutely no compelling reason for you to switch, and that money would be spent on ammo and classes.

[Lost River]

Glocks, 1911s, J-Frames.

https://i.imgur.com/yUbisHU.jpg?1



I tend to just stick to the basics. For years I tried a bunch of different stuff. For about 20 years I dabbled with other types. I could name name a bunch of stuff, but the point is I came right back to where I started. 1911s and Glocks. J Frame in the pocket.

Except the ratio flip flopped. When I started I carried a 1911 almost exclusively and the then brand new Glock I was just warming up to. Now I carry the Glock more than the 1911.

The punchline is that you are just carrying a gun for self defense. That is it. Carry a super reliable gun like a 9mm Glock model whatever and be done with it. I realize we are on an aficionados website, but sometimes we get way overboard on this stuff. Don't make it difficult. Get a Glock and carry it. The end. :cool:

[john c]

I'm a dedicated Glock guy. I say get a P365 and try it out. Skip the 320 Compact since you already have a FS 320 Legion and skip the P365XL since it would replace a gun you're not really using. And keep your Glocks for when you inevitably come back. ;)

Worst case is you sell your P365 at a $100 loss. That's the cost of a few range rentals. Just don't go crazy with holsters, etc until you really decide you're going to switch.

[vandal]

I guess I'm in the "been there, thinking about undoing that" camp. I'm a lifelong Glock guy, but Sig did something pretty cool with the P365XL and Glock has not really come up with a good answer. My mainstay has been a G19. Tried the G43 and it was too small for me and not Glock-reliable. Tried G43x/48 but found they are not significantly easier to hide than my G19. I have zero regrets replacing my G48 with a P365XL. I shoot the smaller, higher capacity gun better than the G48. Only downside has been mag rust.

Since the P365XL is now my normal-days gun I thought it might be good to standardize my carry guns on Sig and replace my G19 with a P320 X-Compact. Here's where things started to break down. Although the 320 let me get a grip module that fits my big hands, and combined with the flat trigger gives me what should be an ideal grip and straight-back finger action... I don't shoot the X-Compact anywhere near as well as my 19, or as well as the P365XL. I've tried different slides, grip modules, different RDS... I just can't make it sing.

The X-Compact is not really a 19 replacement size-wise in my book. it's thicker, and I have not found a holster that lets me hide it as well as the G19. The higher bore axis makes it more awkward to carry somehow, especially with a red dot on it. Overall height of the P320 X-Compact with a red dot on it is the same height as my G45 with red dot. To get something the same size as my G19/RMR I'd have to go P320 X-Compact with 507K. The tradeoffs are piling up.

I'm on the fence for dumping the P320. On the one hand it's a pretty versatile second-tier gun. If I need something to use with gloves (unlikely in CA) being able to swap to a full size grip with a glove-compatible trigger guard is appealing. Or I suppose it's a gun that could be adapted to a different-size shooter but that's a 96% purely theoretical application for me.

The FCU concept has also been attractive in theory for a state like CA that (often) limits the number of guns one can put on a permit to two or three by serial number. But I'm more likely to want to turn the P365XL into a P365SAS for a special event than I am to want to turn a P320 X-Compact into a P320 X-Carry that I can't conceal.

Long story to say... I would not worry about standardizing platforms. The G19 is pretty special size-wise, as is the P365/XL. I have come to be at peace "crossing the streams."

[WOLFIE]

I get considering going all in with the P320. I have thought of doing the same. I really like the grip and to me the trigger pull is phenomenal. And there is the P365 for concealment purposes. Considering the known negative aspects of the 320, I say don’t go through the trouble. Regarding ergonomics, the Walther PPQ and PDP guns are nice if you have not tried one out yet.

I dry fired a Walther PDP yesterday- the trigger pull is ... well ... phenomenal. Nice grip as well. 18 round magazine for the full size frame. 5” barrel or 4.5” or 4”. I am going to buy one. I shoot my PPQ 9mm very well. The PDP has a nicer trigger pull.

Please dry fire (or shoot) a PDP before going all in on the P320. I am carrying the PPSm2 for serious social work. I am hoping Walther produces an updated version in the future- one with a staggered magazine and the PDP trigger system

[KevH]

I was a genuine SIGaholic in the early 2000's and still own a stamped P226, P228 and an old P239. I was burned by SIG a little bit around 2009 and then watched others get REALLY burned by by them. I have been hyper critical on this forum and with other local LE firearms folks regarding the company, the P320 and P365. I still think the P320 has some stupid design issues (including the ejector incorporated as part of the FCU). With all that being said...

The P320 and P365 have really grown on me.

I have been forced to familiarize myself with the pistols since so many of our cops have been buying and using them and now neighboring agencies are purchasing them. The more I shoot them, the more I like them. The more I take them apart, the more I'm beginning to trust them.

I'm currently in the process of building a P320 for myself to play with and have a P365XL with a manual safety I'm picking up from my FFL in a couple weeks.

That's one of the things about the P320. If you don't care for any of the current factory offerings it's super easy to cobble together with factory components exactly the gun you want.

I love Glocks. I love 1911's. I love M&P's. I wouldn't disparage you from switching to P320's if you find they work better for you.

[CLaw]

I had the same impression about the trigger. I personally don't see an improvement over the Glock trigger in the Sig products. The take-up and overtravel feel shorter. I don't think those two elements are the defining characteristics of a better trigger, for me at least. And, you get a worse "people management" trigger to steal a Daryl Bolke term.

Walther's trigger is an unarguably better trigger in my mind. But, again, a worse "people management" trigger. I'd be down for picking one of these up to try if there was a usable thumb safety like a 1911 or one of the S&W M&P. An example of maybe how I'm not the target audience for many of these products. lol


I get considering going all in with the P320. I have thought of doing the same. I really like the grip and to me the trigger pull is phenomenal. And there is the P365 for concealment purposes. Considering the known negative aspects of the 320, I say don’t go through the trouble. Regarding ergonomics, the Walther PPQ and PDP guns are nice if you have not tried one out yet.

I dry fired a Walther PDP yesterday- the trigger pull is ... well ... phenomenal. Nice grip as well. 18 round magazine for the full size frame. 5” barrel or 4.5” or 4”. I am going to buy one. I shoot my PPQ 9mm very well. The PDP has a nicer trigger pull.

Please dry fire (or shoot) a PDP before going all in on the P320. I am carrying the PPSm2 for serious social work. I am hoping Walther produces an updated version in the future- one with a staggered magazine and the PDP trigger system

[HeavyDuty]

After shooting the new X5 Legion last night, I’m thinking I’ll stay only with that for a range and possibly game gun for now as I gain experience with the system. I’m having a hard time reconciling the high parts count and relative complexity of the SIGs compared to the Glock. But, the P365 series has a lot of appeal, I may need to consider checking them out further.

[psalms144.1]

HD - I'll say it again - the P365 is HANDS DOWN a better pistol than the G43, and the XL is much better than a 43X/48, IMHO - having owned and shot them all a bunch. Others have said it better than I can, but, if Sig would scrap the P320, "upsize" the P365 into a true G19 size pistol, I'd snap one up in a heartbeat.

Having said that, you owe it to yourself to try out a Shield Plus. I know it doesn't make since, since it's bigger than the 365, and almost as large as the XL, with less capacity, but the trigger and grip design blow both of the Sigs out of the water, IMHO. I'm so impressed with mine that I've finally nutted up and sent the slide off to Maple Leaf for direct milling a 507K.

I do not and will not trust the P320 for a serious use gun until I see proof that Sig is building that enormously complex pistol with the level of attention and QC it deserves.

[mmc45414]

If I go SIG, it will be all in and the Glocks I keep would become range toys.

After shooting the new X5 Legion last night, I’m thinking I’ll stay only with that for a range and possibly game gun for now as I gain experience with the system.
I think part of the challenge is your all in, light switch transition expectation. It just seems forced, like you are making a vow of Monogamy to your gun safe :cool:. Hit the pause button and ask yourself again in a year.

I evolved away from Glocks but it was not something I decided, it was something that happened. I had moved on to shoot something else (M&Ps) and they were sitting in the safe (along with some other stuff), then one day I decided I wanted to spend several thousand dollars on a Beretta 686 and a Dillon loader for it, and realized I had thousands of dollars worth of stuff parked in the safe. But I didn't just dump them, if I didn't need to generate cash for something else I would still have them.

[Lon]

I dry fired a Walther PDP yesterday- the trigger pull is ... well ... phenomenal. Nice grip as well. 18 round magazine for the full size frame. 5” barrel or 4.5” or 4”. I am going to buy one. I shoot my PPQ 9mm very well. The PDP has a nicer trigger pull.

Please dry fire (or shoot) a PDP before going all in on the P320. I am carrying the PPSm2 for serious social work. I am hoping Walther produces an updated version in the future- one with a staggered magazine and the PDP trigger system

The PPSM2 has been my favorite single stack 9mm. Hands down. If I could have convinced my chief to allow me to carry a PPQ on duty last year instead of a Glock I would have been thrilled and would have kept my PPSM2/Shield RMSc. And that was before the PDP came out. But it went bye bye when I went all in on Glocks. One day when I’m Chief 🤣 I’ll add Walthers to the list of approved pistols. I see Walther going places in the LE world. They’re listening to shooters.

[HCountyGuy]

I guess I'm in the "been there, thinking about undoing that" camp. I'm a lifelong Glock guy, but Sig did something pretty cool with the P365XL and Glock has not really come up with a good answer. My mainstay has been a G19. Tried the G43 and it was too small for me and not Glock-reliable. Tried G43x/48 but found they are not significantly easier to hide than my G19. I have zero regrets replacing my G48 with a P365XL. I shoot the smaller, higher capacity gun better than the G48. Only downside has been mag rust.

...



For me I just couldn’t shoot the 43X or 48 all that well. I believe the thinner grip of them to be the primary factor for myself. The P365 with the X grip is probably the smallest gun I can actually do good shooting with. Sig managed to nail it in that size configuration, I will credit them that.

[vandal]

For me I just couldn’t shoot the 43X or 48 all that well. I believe the thinner grip of them to be the primary factor for myself. The P365 with the X grip is probably the smallest gun I can actually do good shooting with. Sig managed to nail it in that size configuration, I will credit them that.

365XL grip with Razorback mod for me.

[Sig_Fiend]

If I had unlimited access to a CNC machine, I'd engineer my own custom FCU designed to make heads explode. Tool steel, nitrided internals. LEM trigger. SCD. Removable ejector that uses Glock ejectors. ;)

In all seriousness, the P320 platform is a poison pill that always has one thing or another wrong with it. Great concept, poor execution. Most people seem to get along "fine" with them but, I just can't reconcile the fact that I'd have the constant thought in the back of my mind, "Is today the day I'm going to shoot myself in the dick???" I just hope a more mature company can run with the concept and show us the way for the future.

[HeavyDuty]

I think part of the challenge is your all in, light switch transition expectation. It just seems forced, like you are making a vow of Monogamy to your gun safe :cool:. Hit the pause button and ask yourself again in a year.

I evolved away from Glocks but it was not something I decided, it was something that happened. I had moved on to shoot something else (M&Ps) and they were sitting in the safe (along with some other stuff), then one day I decided I wanted to spend several thousand dollars on a Beretta 686 and a Dillon loader for it, and realized I had thousands of dollars worth of stuff parked in the safe. But I didn't just dump them, if I didn't need to generate cash for something else I would still have them.

I probably didn’t make clear that I would make a gradual transition and then be all in with one or the other at the end of the process - that’s what I was trying to indicate. The big issue with that is the relative unavailability of ammunition to make the transition more than a hope and a prayer.

I’m starting to think a hybrid approach may be best. The X5 Legion I have now as a range toy and a P365 as a compact carry candidate. If the P365 works out, look at an XL for a larger belt gun.

I plan on doing a class at the academy later in the summer, maybe a P365 will follow me home with the student discount.

[MickAK]

I probably didn’t make clear that I would make a gradual transition and then be all in with one or the other at the end of the process - that’s what I was trying to indicate. The big issue with that is the relative unavailability of ammunition to make the transition more than a hope and a prayer.

I’m starting to think a hybrid approach may be best. The X5 Legion I have now as a range toy and a P365 as a compact carry candidate. If the P365 works out, look at an XL for a larger belt gun.

I plan on doing a class at the academy later in the summer, maybe a P365 will follow me home with the student discount.

I think that is the best approach. There are a lot of little details that are easy to forget once you've put all the work into smoothing them out.

The 365 offers enough to make that worth it. I don't know if the others do.

[JCN]

I probably didn’t make clear that I would make a gradual transition and then be all in with one or the other at the end of the process - that’s what I was trying to indicate. The big issue with that is the relative unavailability of ammunition to make the transition more than a hope and a prayer.

I’m starting to think a hybrid approach may be best. The X5 Legion I have now as a range toy and a P365 as a compact carry candidate. If the P365 works out, look at an XL for a larger belt gun.

I plan on doing a class at the academy later in the summer, maybe a P365 will follow me home with the student discount.

An XL grip module for the 365 is only 35 bucks and you can swap grips with one pin.

I personally put my 365 slide on an XL grip and don’t find a need for an XL slide (even though I have them).

[WOLFIE]

The PPSM2 has been my favorite single stack 9mm. Hands down. If I could have convinced my chief to allow me to carry a PPQ on duty last year instead of a Glock I would have been thrilled and would have kept my PPSM2/Shield RMSc. And that was before the PDP came out. But it went bye bye when I went all in on Glocks. One day when I’m Chief 🤣 I’ll add Walthers to the list of approved pistols. I see Walther going places in the LE world. They’re listening to shooters.

I think not all LE personal know about the PPQ / PDP / PPSm2 guns. I am issued a G22 gen 3 and have to carry it. Given a choice, I would carry a PDP.

[Lon]

I think not all LE personal know about the PPQ / PDP / PPSm2 guns. I am issued a G22 gen 3 and have to carry it. Given a choice, I would carry a PDP.

Agreed. Walther did an armorers class at this years OTOA CONFERENCE a couple weeks ago. Hopefully they will continue to make inroads into the LE market. Wish Walther and CZ became big enough in the LE world to give Glock and Sig and Smith a run for their money.

[WOLFIE]

Agreed. Walther did an armorers class at this years OTOA CONFERENCE a couple weeks ago. Hopefully they will continue to make inroads into the LE market. Wish Walther and CZ became big enough in the LE world to give Glock and Sig and Smith a run for their money.

It would be awesome if Walther and CZ became a strong contender in the LE market.

[Hot Sauce]

I get considering going all in with the P320. I have thought of doing the same. I really like the grip and to me the trigger pull is phenomenal. And there is the P365 for concealment purposes. Considering the known negative aspects of the 320, I say don’t go through the trouble. Regarding ergonomics, the Walther PPQ and PDP guns are nice if you have not tried one out yet.

I dry fired a Walther PDP yesterday- the trigger pull is ... well ... phenomenal. Nice grip as well. 18 round magazine for the full size frame. 5” barrel or 4.5” or 4”. I am going to buy one. I shoot my PPQ 9mm very well. The PDP has a nicer trigger pull.

Please dry fire (or shoot) a PDP before going all in on the P320. I am carrying the PPSm2 for serious social work. I am hoping Walther produces an updated version in the future- one with a staggered magazine and the PDP trigger system

I hope not, since a big part of what makes the PPS so awesome is the fact that it is not fully pre-cocked, and has a thumbable cocking indicator.

Plus, the trigger on it is not bad at all already.

The 1.5 stack in a PPS would be amazing. Especially given that S&W, Sig, and Glock have already gone in that direction.

[Rack]

HD - I'll say it again - the P365 is HANDS DOWN a better pistol than the G43, and the XL is much better than a 43X/48, IMHO - having owned and shot them all a bunch. Others have said it better than I can, but, if Sig would scrap the P320, "upsize" the P365 into a true G19 size pistol, I'd snap one up in a heartbeat.

Having said that, you owe it to yourself to try out a Shield Plus. I know it doesn't make since, since it's bigger than the 365, and almost as large as the XL, with less capacity, but the trigger and grip design blow both of the Sigs out of the water, IMHO. I'm so impressed with mine that I've finally nutted up and sent the slide off to Maple Leaf for direct milling a 507K.

I do not and will not trust the P320 for a serious use gun until I see proof that Sig is building that enormously complex pistol with the level of attention and QC it deserves.

I'm genuinely curious as to what is better about the 365 than the 320? I've assumed it was also a complex jumble of low-grade parts from India, an ejector on the FCU and the same Sig attitude of slap-dash/send-it-out-the-door-with-cheaper-parts-and-build-than-the-ones-we-shipped-last-month?

Would love to be wrong, but just have a hard time believing that the same leopard (Sig/cohen) would have changed its' spots. Is it a more simple design? More durable? One level of quality for an agency contract and a bottom-level for civilians or a small department?

Can you tell I don't trust that company any more at all? Comments on the 365 have me perplexed.

[WOLFIE]

I hope not, since a big part of what makes the PPS so awesome is the fact that it is not fully pre-cocked, and has a thumbable cocking indicator.

Plus, the trigger on it is not bad at all already.

The 1.5 stack in a PPS would be amazing. Especially given that S&W, Sig, and Glock have already gone in that direction.

I did not know that it was not pre-cocked fully. And you are right about the cocking indicator and the trigger pull.

[WobblyPossum]

I'm genuinely curious as to what is better about the 365 than the 320? I've assumed it was also a complex jumble of low-grade parts from India, an ejector on the FCU and the same Sig attitude of slap-dash/send-it-out-the-door-with-cheaper-parts-and-build-than-the-ones-we-shipped-last-month?

Would love to be wrong, but just have a hard time believing that the same leopard (Sig/cohen) would have changed its' spots. Is it a more simple design? More durable? One level of quality for an agency contract and a bottom-level for civilians or a small department?

Can you tell I don't trust that company any more at all? Comments on the 365 have me perplexed.

It’s definitely not two levels of quality for the P365 series. My agency requires that any personally owned P320 be purchased from one of two distributors and have a specific agency configuration and serial number. On the other hand, you can pick up a P365 or P365XL at any gun store and, once it’s checked out by an armorer, qualify with it and carry it on duty.

[mmc45414]

An XL grip module for the 365 is only 35 bucks and you can swap grips with one pin.

Thanks!

Later today I am picking up one I won in a raffle and didn't know this...

Actually, I plan to sell it, but maybe not.

[Hot Sauce]

I did not know that it was not pre-cocked fully. And you are right about the cocking indicator and the trigger pull. Yep, that's why it's cocking indicator moves rearward progressively until let-off. Thumbing it before it is fully cocked back to the rear stops the completion of the cocking process. Very Glock-like.

If you compare to the cocking indicator on the P99, when it protrudes, it is already cocked. Meaning next step is forward travel--so putting pressure from the rear wouldn't have any effect. The PPQ and PDP have essentially the same construction (while being SAO only i.e. fully cocked), but Walther omitted the cocking indicator in the rear slide plate.

[call_me_ski]

73309

I have lived it. Had a compact grip module and slammed a 17 round mag into the frame on a slide lock reload. Bent the ejector up far enough that the slide would not close. I remediate by removing the mag and beating the slide closed. Re inserted and racked and the slide would not close without me palm smacking it multiple times. Which made it a single shot pistol. Fire, it would eject and on attempting to chamber, the slide would drag on the bent up ejector and not go into battery. Palm smack into battery, fire, repeat the issue. But I did manage to finish the course of fire, one round at a time.

In that pic I had already began to bend the ejector back down on the corner of a table before I decided to snap a photo.

I sent it to Sig, and they replaced the whole pistol.

Now I just use the full size grip module and avoid the compact grip…. Which kind of defeats the modularity thing I wanted.

But I still carry a 365 daily and have a 320 for when I want a full size gun on duty. I just realize it’s limitations and work around them.

Seems like a bad idea to slam the wrong magazines into the gun on a design that uses the floor plate as an over insertion stop. The design is stupid but that one was on you.

[Clusterfrack]

… a design that uses the floor plate as an over insertion stop. The design is stupid…

Add to that a weak and non-replaceable ejector that is part of the FCU. On most other guns, this is a $10 part.

I just don’t get it. No decent engineer would accept that.

[Crow Hunter]

Add to that a weak and non-replaceable ejector that is part of the FCU. On most other guns, this is a $10 part.

I just don’t get it. No decent engineer would accept that.


I have searched online for p365 ejector and can't find one. Since there doesn't appear to be one available is it the same design?

[call_me_ski]

It is integral to the FCU like the P320 but the design those not look as delicate.

Interestingly the Beretta APX has an almost identical ejector design to the P320. I am unable to tell if the steyr M9 -A2 ejector is integrated.

[willie]

The op may be bored. I urge him to keep his plain Jane Spartan friends. Beauty is skin deep. The Sig is like a painted woman viewed through an alcoholic haze. Those whores used to pick me like a chicken.

[HeavyDuty]

The op may be bored. I urge him to keep his plain Jane Spartan friends. Beauty is skin deep. The Sig is like a painted woman viewed through an alcoholic haze. Those whores used to pick me like a chicken.

Nah, I’m an analyst and am always reassessing past decisions and processes. That’s how you end up with bulging gun safes.

The external characteristics of the SIGs are very appealing, but the added mechanical complexity gives me pause for a defensive platform. I’m beginning to get the impression the P365 series has fewer warts than the P320, though.

I’m going to sit tight with Glocks for now at least, gain some experience with SIGs using the X5 Legion that I picked up, and possibly grab a manual safety P365 of some kind to see how I get along with it. As several people pointed out, a prospective platform change is especially problematic right now due to the unavailability and expense of both the range and defensive ammunition needed to vet any new guns and adapt to them. I really don’t need to be squandering limited resources on a change right now.

But I like painted women, and chicken.

[Doc_Glock]

Ken:

My first shots were with Glock. I then tried about every other pistol on the market (except the M&P dang it) and had a lot of fun and learned a lot, but I came back to Glock.

P320s shoot great. I think the P365 is pretty cool.

But yeah it is pretty much double stack Glocks for me in some configuration pretty much indefinitely.

But it is your hobby, money, and time. If you want to experiment, I hope have fun doing so. But the practical, economical decision is to avoid that tarted up Sig whore.

[AMC]

I was a genuine SIGaholic in the early 2000's and still own a stamped P226, P228 and an old P239. I was burned by SIG a little bit around 2009 and then watched others get REALLY burned by by them. I have been hyper critical on this forum and with other local LE firearms folks regarding the company, the P320 and P365. I still think the P320 has some stupid design issues (including the ejector incorporated as part of the FCU). With all that being said...

The P320 and P365 have really grown on me.

I have been forced to familiarize myself with the pistols since so many of our cops have been buying and using them and now neighboring agencies are purchasing them. The more I shoot them, the more I like them. The more I take them apart, the more I'm beginning to trust them.

I'm currently in the process of building a P320 for myself to play with and have a P365XL with a manual safety I'm picking up from my FFL in a couple weeks.

That's one of the things about the P320. If you don't care for any of the current factory offerings it's super easy to cobble together with factory components exactly the gun you want.

I love Glocks. I love 1911's. I love M&P's. I wouldn't disparage you from switching to P320's if you find they work better for you.

This is kinda where I'm finding myself. They still piss me off as a company. And the current return to the "Scorpion King Equinox Classic Nightmare Tacops Operator" gun-of-the-month nonsense does nothing to help that opinion. Theyre doing tons of cool innovative stuff too....but it gets drowned out by those abortions in my opinion.

After the 320 Armorers course, and asking some hard questions, I have more confidence, and more of an idea that they're heading in the right direction with the 320. Still agree with HCM that they should upside the 365 FCU and call it the P320A1.

If anyone has any insight into the actual mechanism of failure that is claimed for the current "ongoing, systemic" problems with the P320 design, I would seriously like to hear from you. As in what is the actual mechanism of failure? Striker slipping off the sear? Failure of the safety plunger or spring? Also how you or someone else were able to reproduce the failures in testing. We have tried multiple ways with current production 320 Pro 9mms, and could NOT reproduce the failures. So far, all of the legitimate failures I've seen involve older series guns. And every other account I've seen or heard from folks, including folks I trust, doesn't specify the mechanism of failure, or the methods used to reproduce it in testing. It would be very much appreciated if anyone with knowledge could share the info. If it needs to be through official channels, PM me and I'll send you a Department email address.

ETA: as far as the OP, though I personally shoot 320's significantly better than Glocks (I shoot M&Ps better too), unless you just really wanna try something new for the sake of new....I agree there's just no compelling reason to ditch the Gen5 Glocks if they're working for you.

[MGW]

Nah, I’m an analyst and am always reassessing past decisions and processes. That’s how you end up with bulging gun safes.

The external characteristics of the SIGs are very appealing, but the added mechanical complexity gives me pause for a defensive platform. I’m beginning to get the impression the P365 series has fewer warts than the P320, though.

I’m going to sit tight with Glocks for now at least, gain some experience with SIGs using the X5 Legion that I picked up, and possibly grab a manual safety P365 of some kind to see how I get along with it. As several people pointed out, a prospective platform change is especially problematic right now due to the unavailability and expense of both the range and defensive ammunition needed to vet any new guns and adapt to them. I really don’t need to be squandering limited resources on a change right now.

But I like painted women, and chicken.

Adding more to think about.

Here's what I'm considering. I'm set on Glocks too but there are other pistols that I shoot better. Not a Glock issue but an operator issue. The Timney trigger for the Glock is pretty interesting. All the trigger advantages of a 320 or M&P while keeping all the advantages of a Glock. The drawbacks are no more SCD. But it's the same thing with a Sig. A friend of mine has a Timney on order so I'm going to test his for free and see if that's an option or not.

[newyork]

I’ve decided to stick with M&P as…I have one and it’s too much of a hassle to sell and buy glocks yada yada but…man I wish there was an M&P gadget!

[Noah]

I’ve decided to stick with M&P as…I have one and it’s too much of a hassle to sell and buy glocks yada yada but…man I wish there was an M&P gadget!

Tell S&W to make an M&P 3.0 with a half cocked striker system like a Glock and not the fully single action design that it is, then maybe you could see a gadget for it.

[Noah]

Not only am I on it but I bet they’ll listen lol.

Given the market right now for "Best striker fired trigger out of the box!" I rather doubt it.

[newyork]

Not only am I on it but I bet they’ll listen lol.

[newyork]

I actually didn’t know the 2.0 was fully pre tensioned.

[mmc45414]

I actually didn’t know the 2.0 was fully pre tensioned.I think everything is, except the SD9VE and the Glocks

ETA: No SCD with the M&P, but the thumb safety is an option. Now I just want a M&P safety lever alternative that feels like a 1911.

[newyork]

I think everything is, except the SD9VE and the Glocks

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

Damn it. Thank you.

[Clusterfrack]

I think everything is, except the SD9VE and the Glocks


The CZ P10 series has a partially pre-tensioned striker.

[WobblyPossum]

I don’t know how much difference full/partial tension makes with regards to safety. I once posted that I liked the partially cocked striker aspect of Glocks because if the internal safeties failed and the partially cocked striker slammed forward, it wouldn’t light off a primer. Tom Jones then posted that there was likely enough energy in the partially cocked striker to set off most primers. Since most of Tom’s posts have been pulled, I can’t share his exact words.

[newyork]

Damn it I want a hammer or a gadget. As soon as I finally said screw it I’ll stick to the m&P.

[Noah]

I think everything is, except the SD9VE and the Glocks

ETA: No SCD with the M&P, but the thumb safety is an option. Now I just want a M&P safety lever alternative that feels like a 1911.

If the M&P Thumb Safety didn't feel terrible to me and ruin the feel of the gun, I might be carrying one instead of a Glock with an SCD.

[mmc45414]

Tom Jones then posted that there was likely enough energy in the partially cocked striker to set off most primers.
Now that you mention it, they were probably designed not to with NATO primers and it probably is a lot easier to pop a comercial primer.

I will admit, I wish my (7?) M&Ps were not fully cocked, but my concerns have mellowed. I have accepted the potential for a discharge as probably just a fear. While their adoption is not so widespread as Glock, if they were discharging in holsters it would not be a secret. And both pistols still have the striker block (though that spring is kinda tiny, but at least the at-rest position is blocked). Maybe some big impact might make it fall to the striker block, but if I am wearing it that might be a secondary problem. This was part of my decision when motorcycling that I went with a J-frame in the map pocket of my jacket (also weight) but if I crash hard enough to discharge a striker having a hard object in front of me is also a big problem.

So I can wrap my mind around it will not just discharge without the trigger getting pulled, and if the trigger gets pulled it really didn't matter where the striker was.

That leaves the holstering concern...

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

[HeavyDuty]

Now that you mention it, they were probably designed not to with NATO primers and it probably is a lot easier to pop a comercial primer.

I will admit, I wish my (7?) M&Ps were not fully cocked, but my concerns have mellowed. I have accepted the potential for a discharge as probably just a fear. While their adoption is not so widespread as Glock, if they were discharging in holsters it would not be a secret. And both pistols still have the striker block (though that spring is kinda tiny, but at least the at-rest position is blocked). Maybe some big impact might make it fall to the striker block, but if I am wearing it that might be a secondary problem. This was part of my decision when motorcycling that I went with a J-frame in the map pocket of my jacket (also weight) but if I crash hard enough to discharge a striker having a hard object in front of me is also a big problem.

So I can wrap my mind around it will not just discharge without the trigger getting pulled, and if the trigger gets pulled it really didn't matter where the striker was.

That leaves the holstering concern...

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

To be honest, holstering is my only real concern. I’m happy enough with most pistol design’s drop safety.

[newyork]

To be honest, holstering is my only real concern. I’m happy enough with most pistol design’s drop safety.

Same here. Mostly concerned with the holstering aspect. I suppose being at the range or in a class presents the most risk. How often are we holstering during a regular day? One or two times. At the range or in a class it’s probably hundreds.

If not a glock/gadget with their iffy 10rd mags, a P07, PX4, ltt or P30 are all sounding good.

[mmc45414]

An XL grip module for the 365 is only 35 bucks and you can swap grips with one pin.

Later today I am picking up one I won in a raffle and didn't know this...
I picked up my raffle gun Saturday (almost two hours waiting my turn and doing the NICS, gezzus...) and shot it on Sunday. I got what they call their TACPAC with three 12rd mags and a little OWB holster. Game plan was to sell it, and still might (this thing is still out there... (https://www.ar15.com/forums/Equipment-Exchange/SandW-MandP-2-0-5-9mm-w-RMR-Milling-and-Cerakote-by-Primary-Machine-/88-2146060/)) but shooting it at least makes me curious. But I would want the XL grip, If I need a smaller gun than that it is a J-frame for me. And I believe the 12rd mags could be swapped over with floorplates. The sights are nice, so that just leaves me needing a JMCK IWB-3, and they are even on the quick ship list...

But where are these $35 grip modules? All of the ones I can dig up for the XL are more like $55.

Now I am probably the one on the ledge, contemplating spending $150 on my free gun! ;)

Also:

https://i.imgur.com/yUbisHU.jpg?1
Bonus style points for picturing a 1911 with a K-frame sight. Don't you dare say it was done by Swenson... :cool:

[Texaspoff]

I 'm an admitted Glock fan and it is a fantastic platform. I recommend Glocks to folks all the time. I have owned and carried Glocks on and off duty for over 25 years, and they have never let me down. I have strayed from them many times, only to find myself coming back to them at some point.

With all that, I simply prefer the 320 platform better. I can shoot it better under all conditions. I find I have to work slightly harder with my Glocks to achieve the same performance accuracy and speed wise. I am not happy overall with how Sig handled the drop issue, and I don't like their current leadership or his business practices, but that isn't something that directly affects me and how the 320 performs for me.

If your heavily invested in Glock, then I would say stick with it, and practice practice, and then practice some more. They are excellent pistols, and nothing wrong with them.

I moved away from the Glock platform late last year, and this time I am not going to go back. I have multiple 320's including my first 320 purchased from Sig on their firearms instructor program back in 2015, so I am not new to the 320. I have also replaced my 43's and 43X's with 365s. That was the final decision for me to stay in Sigs camp.




TXPO

[TheNewbie]

If the M&P Thumb Safety didn't feel terrible to me and ruin the feel of the gun, I might be carrying one instead of a Glock with an SCD.


Same here.

Wish S&W would have improved the safety just a bit more in the 2.0. It really wouldn’t take much to make it better, just a few small improvements. A tad more positive, a tad lower, and I think it would be great.


My main concern is holstering and admin handling.


If Sig wasn’t Sig, and the P320 wasn’t the P320, I would explore the safety option there, but I think it may be in the same boat as the M&P.


A Glock 26 with a well done TS would be my EDC if it existed.


The problem is all that is an after thought for the gun makers. Many, if not most people, have never considered the benefits of a hammer or TS for holstering/admin handing. Explaining it to them doesn’t always fall of deaf ears, but it usually does set off any lightbulbs either.

[HeavyDuty]

Many, if not most people, have never considered the benefits of a hammer or TS for holstering/admin handing. Explaining it to them doesn’t always fall of deaf ears, but it usually does set off any lightbulbs either.

Repeated for emphasis.

[Lost River]

Snip...

Bonus style points for picturing a 1911 with a K-frame sight. Don't you dare say it was done by Swenson... :cool:



I don't know. It is from the right period, but I understand there were a few smiths who did similar work. One thing I can say for certain, whoever the gentleman who did the work was, he built a heck of a nice gun. This thing is a serious tack driver with 185 grain SWCs. The work on this gun, especially for that time period is exceptional. I had it updated with a few modern touches like a beavertail GS, and a magwell, along with a longer trigger by a 1911 smith who I trusted.

The one thing this gun needs is a little work to reliably feed modern HPs. Runs ball all day though, clean or dirty. I may have a Novak dovetail cut front sight put in, so I can put a FS that is easier for me to focus on, but other than that I can't think of much I would change. It has that mix of old school and modern that make it hard to resist.

Oh, I am going to change out the rear blade for a white outline S&W one. :)


https://i.imgur.com/ELgKF84.jpg?2

https://i.imgur.com/rdzKXd6.jpg?1

https://i.imgur.com/J5jNG7W.jpg?1

[Lost River]

More

https://i.imgur.com/8rbwEH6.jpg?1

https://i.imgur.com/UzZ4hjC.jpg?1

https://i.imgur.com/P5AqMhP.jpg?1

[mmc45414]

I don't know. It is from the right period, but I understand there were a few smiths who did similar work.
I had one that a local guy did, if you look real close at my avatar you can see it! :cool:
But I compromised and had the sight dropped in where the sight dovetail was, not nearly as nice as yours with the filled notch and relocation. Worked well, once the size of the screw was upsized.


It has that mix of old school and modern that make it hard to resist.
I had meant to also mention the hammer.

[HCM]

Damn it I want a hammer or a gadget. As soon as I finally said screw it I’ll stick to the m&P.

I believe the new M&P's including all 2.0 can be retrofitted with the thumb safety.

Nor have there been an drop safety issues with M&Ps.

[newyork]

I believe the new M&P's including all 2.0 can be retrofitted with the thumb safety.

Nor have there been an drop safety issues with M&Ps.

Not really wanting a safety. My concern is multiple reholsters at the range. I trust the m&P with drops. Like a glocks gadget or a hammer upon holstering.

[Rack]

I don't know. It is from the right period, but I understand there were a few smiths who did similar work. One thing I can say for certain, whoever the gentleman who did the work was, he built a heck of a nice gun. This thing is a serious tack driver with 185 grain SWCs. The work on this gun, especially for that time period is exceptional. I had it updated with a few modern touches like a beavertail GS, and a magwell, along with a longer trigger by a 1911 smith who I trusted.

The one thing this gun needs is a little work to reliably feed modern HPs. Runs ball all day though, clean or dirty. I may have a Novak dovetail cut front sight put in, so I can put a FS that is easier for me to focus on, but other than that I can't think of much I would change. It has that mix of old school and modern that make it hard to resist.

Oh, I am going to change out the rear blade for a white outline S&W one. :)


https://i.imgur.com/ELgKF84.jpg?2

https://i.imgur.com/rdzKXd6.jpg?1

https://i.imgur.com/J5jNG7W.jpg?1


I love it. I'm a sucker for old school 1911s.

[jandbj]

More

https://i.imgur.com/8rbwEH6.jpg?1

https://i.imgur.com/UzZ4hjC.jpg?1

https://i.imgur.com/P5AqMhP.jpg?1

A relative of mine has one quite like this. Was done by the man the NYPD range is named after, and was his personal off duty carry gun too. Lt Francis J McGee.


I’ll have to see if I can find some pics of it.

[Duelist]

Not really wanting a safety. My concern is multiple reholsters at the range. I trust the m&P with drops. Like a glocks gadget or a hammer upon holstering.

This is one of the main reasons why I went Glock instead of M&P or APX.

[newyork]

Exactly. That or something tda is more comfortable in the feels department

[BWT]

So, I’ve got a bit out of left field recommendation - consider a less expensive option comparatively.

Try out the Timney Alpha trigger.

https://timneytriggers.com/alpha-competition-series-for-glock-gen5/

It’s single action instead of double action and it was well reviewed by The Humble Marksman and TTI.

It pre-tensions the striker and gets it to light weights.

I figure try it with a range Glock. $150 is not a lot in light of this discussion.

[HeavyDuty]

So, I’ve got a bit out of left field recommendation - consider a less expensive option comparatively.

Try out the Timney Alpha trigger.

https://timneytriggers.com/alpha-competition-series-for-glock-gen5/

It’s single action instead of double action and it was well reviewed by The Humble Marksman and TTI.

It pre-tensions the striker and gets it to light weights.

I figure try it with a range Glock. $150 is not a lot in light of this discussion.

Thanks, but there is no way I’d consider one of these for a defensive Glock. For a range toy, sure.

[BWT]

Thanks, but there is no way I’d consider one of these for a defensive Glock. For a range toy, sure.

Agreed, and perhaps I didn’t emphasize range Glock hard enough.

I feel the same way.

[HeavyDuty]

Agreed, and perhaps I didn’t emphasize range Glock hard enough.

I feel the same way.

I would definitely be curious how it is in something like a 34. I missed your range comment at the end, apologies and insufficient caffeine.

[Noah]

I'm quite happy with normal Glocks with SCDs for carry and my carry gun is my range gun, but with the setup as done by Johnny Glock to increase the pull weight to over 4 pounds, there's really no reason a Timney would be any less safe than something like a Walther, M&P, or other single action striker design.

[JAH 3rd]

I'd say go for it. You can always go back if things don't meet your expectations. I wouldn't get rid of any Glocks until you are satisfied the Sigs do what you want them to. I'd get a CCW Sig with your holster of choice. Wear that combo for 2-3 months and see how it works for you. Then make your decision Sig or Glock for your CCW.

Your on the ledge.......all of us have been there. It's am emotional situation with point, counter-point arguments swirling in your head. We've all been on that ledge. That's why I said get one Sig and see how it plays out. You can always keep or sell whatever pistol you decide. Just go slow, make your decision, vet that decision and move forward from that.

I remember decades ago when S&W came out with a 6" model 66. I am a big 66 fan. I read about the addition of the 6" barrel length to the platform. Happened to be in a local police supply store......just lookin'. I inquired about the 6" model 66. He disappeared into a back room........the infamous back room. Came out with two boxes. Each with a 6" 66. My hands started sweating and my heart beat rose. It was a physical response to an emotional issue. Well, money was tight back then and I left them there. It was a hard decision, one that I have so wanted a do-over if I could ever go back in time.

Get you Sig and holster, see how it goes. At least you will have concrete experience with that platform. Hopefully it will help take some emotion out of your decision.

[TheNewbie]

Speaking of quality safeties. I tried the safety on a 92x performance.


If the M&P safety was only that good. It’s what a safety should be.


A Glock 26 with a safety that good? My carry gun para siempre.

[medmo]

I’ll hold your beer…. Not much to lose considering the approach of starting the eval with the SIG pistol you already own. Also, having all that SIG resource right in your backyard is a huge plus. It’s really interesting that there seems to be a tribal hard on here for SIG, (saying that at the risk of being flamed by the tribe). How many brand new pistol designs stumbled out of the gate, had inherent flaws, were corrected and are popular quality products today? That might be an interesting thread to start. I only own one SIG, an older 229, that hasn’t been out of the safe in a very long time. I’ve got no dog in the fight nor any brand reputation emotional ties.

[Sig_Fiend]

It’s really interesting that there seems to be a tribal hard on here for SIG, (saying that at the risk of being flamed by the tribe). How many brand new pistol designs stumbled out of the gate, had inherent flaws, were corrected and are popular quality products today?

That may seem to be the case, but I can assure you it is not. Of all the forums out there that may dump on the P320 platform, PF is one of the most reasonable and logical about it. Most of us here only care about the facts at the end of the day. You have many highly experienced end users with the platform here, including on the LE agency side. Some of them have even posted in this thread with pictures of particular problem areas with the platform. There are several other lengthy threads with dozens of users detailing many other issues from personal and/or agency experience (e.g. much larger than an N of 1 sample size). These concerns are not without merit. The shenanigans the company has historically pulled in regards to some of those issues, while not unique to that company alone, are certainly cause for raising an eyebrow.

On the subject of Glock Timney triggers, I caution people against casually recommending those for guns whose purpose may end up as a defensive or carry gun. I'll just say flat out, they are a no-go for any defensive use. In essence, it adds a P320-level problem or two to the Glock. The Timney sear is a bit like the P320 sear in that it is entirely unrestricted in movement, save for the coil spring underneath it. Theoretically the inertia from a drop might be enough to cause the sear to bounce. Furthermore, you now have a fully cocked striker and only a millimeter or so of sear engagement. Yes, you should still have the function of the factory drop safety ledge and firing pin safety. However, you should really take a step back and ask what exactly you think you are gaining. I submit to you, if a factory 4.5 connector and a 6# trigger return spring or NY1 spring won't do it for you, the trigger isn't the problem. Not to mention, if you like the SCD... well the Timney trigger results in a fully cocked striker... so that kind of defeats the purpose. ;)

[medmo]

That may seem to be the case, but I can assure you it is not. Of all the forums out there that may dump on the P320 platform, PF is one of the most reasonable and logical about it. Most of us here only care about the facts at the end of the day. You have many highly experienced end users with the platform here, including on the LE agency side. Some of them have even posted in this thread with pictures of particular problem areas with the platform. There are several other lengthy threads with dozens of users detailing many other issues from personal and/or agency experience (e.g. much larger than an N of 1 sample size). These concerns are not without merit. The shenanigans the company has historically pulled in regards to some of those issues, while not unique to that company alone, are certainly cause for raising an eyebrow.

On the subject of Glock Timney triggers, I caution people against casually recommending those for guns whose purpose may end up as a defensive or carry gun. I'll just say flat out, they are a no-go for any defensive use. In essence, it adds a P320-level problem or two to the Glock. The Timney sear is a bit like the P320 sear in that it is entirely unrestricted in movement, save for the coil spring underneath it. Theoretically the inertia from a drop might be enough to cause the sear to bounce. Furthermore, you now have a fully cocked striker and only a millimeter or so of sear engagement. Yes, you should still have the function of the factory drop safety ledge and firing pin safety. However, you should really take a step back and ask what exactly you think you are gaining. I submit to you, if a factory 4.5 connector and a 6# trigger return spring or NY1 spring won't do it for you, the trigger isn't the problem. Not to mention, if you like the SCD... well the Timney trigger results in a fully cocked striker... so that kind of defeats the purpose. ;)

I fit into the highly experienced end user, only caring about the facts crowd and still stand by my comment. I agree, the concerns aren’t without merit and aren’t unique to SIG. Most of us here, including myself, have a pistol in their holster right now that when initially introduced had eyebrow raising concerns associated with them.

[BWT]

I’d agree with the caution towards the Timney trigger. I recommended it (again not hard enough) in the context of a range gun only. He mentioned potentially use Sig’s for range use only and potentially keeping Glocks. Something he also liked was their triggers. 320’s are heavily scrutinized for being “really drop safe” and I’d put the Timney trigger in the same category except - they don’t even claim to be drop safe.

Also, there’s this video in a cutaway Glock that further illustrates the concern.

https://youtu.be/Sx-nQQrKI80

Now with that disclaimer / acknowledgement out of the way. I’d say consider it for range use as a parallel for the Sigs for range use. $150 is nothing when you have tons of magazines, guns, holsters, mag carriers, sights, various other accessories I’m forgetting (SCD’s - actually).

I dunno. I get it. I have these same thoughts from time to time. I found myself considering a Timney until I saw that video and also saw where the Timney can’t be used with a SCD. So it’s not drop safe (as far as I can tell), but I’ve shot an X5 Legion that was my father’s and I’ll tell you I’d be *shocked* if that thing was ever considered drop safe.

I like the performance of some of the Sig guns, I just don’t think they’re up to snuff. Which is a real shame - they show potential. I also just am not going to AIWB something without a SCD type device. I figure I’ll just buy a RDS because apparently I’m learning I don’t know what I’m doing with traditional sights, etc. (https://youtu.be/u9AYcRox-Ts). I think that’ll yield more break throughs than a trigger.

Anyway I’m rambling. I look forward to what you report back Heavy Duty. Give it some time and let the rush / excitement pass. Then consider it again. I impulse bought a Mossberg 590 recently during the panic and I slightly regret it not being a 590A1. I’m just trying to help.

ETA: I liked the X5 quite a bit by the way as a side note. I just am like Heavy Duty and I have about 30-40-ish Glock 17 and also near that in Glock 19 magazines, and holsters… and sights… those magazines retail for like $20-25 now? I did some quick math and hit $4,000 quickly.

$150 for a Timney trigger for range fun doesn’t seem as bad to maybe keep you from spending thousands.

[Hot Sauce]

I’d agree with the caution towards the Timney trigger. I recommended it (again not hard enough) in the context of a range gun only. He mentioned potentially use Sig’s for range use only and potentially keeping Glocks. Something he also liked was their triggers. 320’s are heavily scrutinized for being “really drop safe” and I’d put the Timney trigger in the same category except - they don’t even claim to be drop safe.
I get that you're not saying that it's for defensive use, but eventually, like a game of telephone, that recommendation will trickle down to someone without the context that it's range only or why.

People will always do dumb stuff, as long as there are people. But neither we as knowledgeable end users, nor manufacturers like Timney, ought to participate in enabling that.

I know someone's gonna jump in and say there are plenty of pre-cocked striker guns out there being sold. They were designed at the outset to be that way. The safety of the Glock system works together with all of it's elements, including drop safeties, pre-cocking, length of travel, etc. Significantly screwing with and/or almost wholesale removing a whole element just doesn't strike me as the greatest idea.

Eventually some company will come out with a Glock trigger light and short enough to be set off by blowing on it, and someone out there will still find it too hard to use.

[BWT]

I get that you're not saying that it's for defensive use, but eventually, like a game of telephone, that recommendation will trickle down to someone without the context that it's range only or why.

People will always do dumb stuff, as long as there are people. But neither we as knowledgeable end users, nor manufacturers like Timney, ought to participate in enabling that.

I know someone's gonna jump in and say there are plenty of pre-cocked striker guns out there being sold. They were designed at the outset to be that way. The safety of the Glock system works together with all of it's elements, including drop safeties, pre-cocking, length of travel, etc. Significantly screwing with and/or almost wholesale removing a whole element just doesn't strike me as the greatest idea.

Eventually some company will come out with a Glock trigger light and short enough to be set off by blowing on it, and someone out there will still find it too hard to use.

So, by extension you’d never buy the tungsten infused light trigger Sig, right?

Practically it was *never* intended to be a carry gun. I’m just saying one could also use that same logic towards a Glock 34.

I happen to EDC a Glock 34. But that’s not common.

ETA: I’ll say this and then I think this will be sufficiently beaten.

I offered the Timney as something that may give a stay on a decision that he may regret down the road (he tongue-in-cheek explained that in the title of the thread), hence I’m like “Here try this out, see what you think, and if the decision still seems good to go to a different platform after enough time. Do it.”

I bought a PSA AK103 Klone like that. I have an Arsenal SGL21, which has become a collectors item due to its Russian lineage (Thanks Obama). But I like owning guns I can shoot and not worry about. So, I didn’t want to sell it, but I don’t really get excited about the idea of further devaluing it.

So, I kind of regretted not having two back when they cost around what a AK103 Klone cost. I kind of resolved to buy one if I got the chance.

I went into PSA and they had them in store. I even said to the guy at the counter “You have no idea how close I am to impulse buying this”. But I remembered the 590 and Dave Ramsey “No good deal is too good to sleep on” - I was pretty exhausted from some work stuff. I went home with my son, and we hung out did our normal stuff. Put him down for a nap - slept too. Woke up, thought it over and it’s still something I wanted to do. So I bought it. No regrets at all to this day - I look forward to shooting it (when ammo’s reasonable again) and handling it, etc. making tons of memories with the kids. I’ll restore the SGL21 to factory conditions and probably not use it again. Which sucks, but it is what it is. My Dad gave me a Mosin Nagant which has now quadrupled in value for the same reason.

He just didn’t want an $80 rifle that big in his safe and offered it. I have a bigger safe and that was it.

[Sig_Fiend]

I get that you're not saying that it's for defensive use, but eventually, like a game of telephone, that recommendation will trickle down to someone without the context that it's range only or why.

People will always do dumb stuff, as long as there are people. But neither we as knowledgeable end users, nor manufacturers like Timney, ought to participate in enabling that.

I know someone's gonna jump in and say there are plenty of pre-cocked striker guns out there being sold. They were designed at the outset to be that way. The safety of the Glock system works together with all of it's elements, including drop safeties, pre-cocking, length of travel, etc. Significantly screwing with and/or almost wholesale removing a whole element just doesn't strike me as the greatest idea.

Eventually some company will come out with a Glock trigger light and short enough to be set off by blowing on it, and someone out there will still find it too hard to use.

Agreed. The majority of the thread, including the first post, was explicitly focused on defensive gun use. Best not to even bring competition trigger stuff in to a thread like this vs. say a thread in the Competition or Marksmanship sections of the forum. Too many people, unfortunately, will scan a thread like this and certain words will stand out like:

defensive gun
glock
timney trigger
like a p320 trigger


Then they might go to modding their defensive gun with a trigger like that and possibly have an ND.

[HeavyDuty]

Agreed. The majority of the thread, including the first post, was explicitly focused on defensive gun use. Best not to even bring competition trigger stuff in to a thread like this vs. say a thread in the Competition or Marksmanship sections of the forum. Too many people, unfortunately, will scan a thread like this and certain words will stand out like:

defensive gun
glock
timney trigger
like a p320 trigger


Then they might go to modding their defensive gun with a trigger like that and possibly have an ND.

We have a saying in the insurance industry that applies to that situation - “stupid people die in stupid ways.” Given the derp I’ve seen posted on other forums over the years, I definitely see that happening with a few people.

[Hot Sauce]

Agreed. The majority of the thread, including the first post, was explicitly focused on defensive gun use. Best not to even bring competition trigger stuff in to a thread like this vs. say a thread in the Competition or Marksmanship sections of the forum. Too many people, unfortunately, will scan a thread like this and certain words will stand out like:

defensive gun
glock
timney trigger
like a p320 trigger


Then they might go to modding their defensive gun with a trigger like that and possibly have an ND.

The tendency of some to skim threads as you described is precisely why I felt compelled to comment.

People have often pointed to the PPQ as the perfect striker trigger. And despite having a crisper break, it's total length of travel is not shorter than a Glock and it's weight is right at 5-5.5 lbs.

That's called a clue.

I generally don't begrudge people who play a bit with their trigger weight or take up, but pushing the envelope on that to extremes is a fun mechanical experiment only, not a good idea for carry.

[JAH 3rd]

Just wondering how you and the ledge are doing. Have you came to any decisions regarding a new pistol? Any new thoughts on a pistol....narrowed down anything? Thanks!

[HeavyDuty]

Just wondering how you and the ledge are doing. Have you came to any decisions regarding a new pistol? Any new thoughts on a pistol....narrowed down anything? Thanks!

Nah. I’m going to stick with Glock for defensive uses at least in the short and mid term. I’m enjoying the new P320 for target use, and I may keep an eye out for a deal on a P365 to try. But I don’t have a burning urge to start shifting.

[medmo]

Nah. I’m going to stick with Glock for defensive uses at least in the short and mid term. I’m enjoying the new P320 for target use, and I may keep an eye out for a deal on a P365 to try. But I don’t have a burning urge to start shifting.

Okay, handing you back your beer for now. Y’all good now?

[FreaknAZ]

Something that brought me back to Glock and continues to keep me with Glock is the parts availability... Even during the craziness of the riots and Covid I could still get replacement parts locally.
I can't do that even in normal times with any other manufacturer.
I also ordered a G17.5 and a G34.5 n the middle of it all and they eventually came in as well.
If funds allow, I would buy each of the guns you would intend to carry. Run them for a time you feel is adequate to confirm reliability and the see how things progress. If you feel they are meeting your needs..then you're good...
I'd say keeps the Glocks even if you do carry the Sigs...
.

[HeavyDuty]

I decided to keep an eye out for a P320 manual safety FCU or a complete manual safety P320 Compact, just to give this a try. Probably a manual safety P365, too.

[HeavyDuty]

Killed the idea of building a P320 around a FCU, component prices and availability sucks. I’ll keep my eyes open, though - I wonder if one of the black M18s is a good starting point. The mess that is P320 optic mounting is confusing as hell, though - I would like to have the ability of mounting a Acro or RMR. GJM’s recent P320 + Acro build using an Apex plate and sight set is hugely appealing. I just don’t know how I can prequalify a P320 slide for proper milling, drilling and tapping before purchase.

What I should do is keep an eye out for a couple of compact 15 round magazines now, on the assumption I will have to either convert an M18 using a Wilson compact grip module or will need more mags for a purchased compact. Off to the classifieds I go… I believe I read here the Mecgar mags are the favorite?

To clarify, this won’t be a switch from Glock - just analysis.

[HCM]

Killed the idea of building a P320 around a FCU, component prices and availability sucks. I’ll keep my eyes open, though - I wonder if one of the black M18s is a good starting point. The mess that is P320 optic mounting is confusing as hell, though - I would like to have the ability of mounting a Acro or RMR. GJM’s recent P320 + Acro build using an Apex plate and sight set is hugely appealing. I just don’t know how I can prequalify a P320 slide for proper milling, drilling and tapping before purchase.

What I should do is keep an eye out for a couple of compact 15 round magazines now, on the assumption I will have to either convert an M18 using a Wilson compact grip module or will need more mags for a purchased compact. Off to the classifieds I go… I believe I read here the Mecgar mags are the favorite?

To clarify, this won’t be a switch from Glock - just analysis.

Mecgar is believed to make the “made in Italy” SIG mags but there are no Mecgar branded 320 mags at this time.

There are some aftermarket ACT branded mags but only 17 rounders.

[HeavyDuty]

Mecgar is believed to make the “made in Italy” SIG mags but there are no Mecgar branded 320 mags at this time.

There are some aftermarket ACT branded mags but only 17 rounders.

The made in Italy ones are the ones I meant, based on comments here.

[Wonder9]

74900

It's really not scary on the other side of the ledge.

[HeavyDuty]

I just picked up a black M18 which was the only easy route to a compact sized optics ready gun with a manual safety. I immediately swapped out the grip module with a WC compact. Let’s see how I like this thing.

[HeavyDuty]

I just picked up a black M18 which was the only easy route to a compact sized optics ready gun with a manual safety. I immediately swapped out the grip module with a WC compact. Let’s see how I like this thing.

Frickin’ SIG. In what world does it make sense to direct mill two current production guns differently? The M18 doesn’t have the additional RMR holes that my X5 Legion has, and they were both built in June.

7517775178

[HCM]

Frickin’ SIG. In what world does it make sense to direct mill two current production guns differently? The M18 doesn’t have the additional RMR holes that my X5 Legion has, and they were both built in June.

7517775178

The commercial M17 and M18 are clones of the .MIL M17 and M18, both of which are cut for the DPP footprint as required by the MHS contract.

It's like buying a Beretta M9 and complaining that it doesn't have a rail or dovetail front sight. Most Beretta 92's have those features but those are not M9's....

PS-The RMR holes aka the PRO cut, is a happy accident that only exists because it was a requirement for the CBP contract. Nor is it a coincidence SIG's Romeo 1 Pro footprint is so similar to the DPP.

Besides the Bobro and FCD/TD M17/18 plates give you a rear sight dovetail.