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cosine
06-02-2012, 10:53 PM
I've been shooting intermittently for a few years now, and have just recently decided that I want to get serious with practicing, training, and possibly competing. My shooting experience up until now has been renting something at the local range for an hour a couple of times a year. I'm basically a blank slate in terms of equipment and experience. I don't have any monetary investment in any particular platform, such as hundreds of dollars sunk into holsters, magazines, and accessories. Nor do I have any significant experience (muscle memory) with any particular platform. About a month ago I started going to the range every weekend, renting 9mm pistols (gen 4 Glock 19, M&P9, XDM), and seeing what I did and didn't like. Out of those three I preferred the Glock 19. It points naturally for me, and the gen 4 grip fit my smallish hands (for a guy) decently. Besides shooting preference, the plethora of accessories for Glocks is also appealing. I also like the size of the Glock 19, not too small as to be uncomfortable for a lot of shooting, but not too big for defense and concealment. I intend to shoot about 100-200 rounds of 9mm per month, supplemented with a few hundred rounds of .22 per month to practice my fundamentals.

Price-wise, the mid-range price of a gen 4 Glock 19 is best for my budget. For the $900 of an HK I can get the Glock 19 and a lot of ammunition for practice. I'd like to stick with 9mm, unless the issues with the gen 4 Glock 23s have been iron out and I can be convinced that avoiding the issues with the gen 4 Glock 19s is worth the increased cost of .40 ammunition. I also prefer the operational simplicity of striker-fired pistols, although I'm not opposed to other actions if someone wants to convince me otherwise.

It just seems that, based on all the reading I've been doing, that purchasing a gen 4 Glock 19 is a bit of a crapshoot, with some pistols being fine and some have tons of troubles, including troubles that don't appear until 1000-4000 round have been shot through the pistol.

Given that I'm a blank slate that could start with pretty much anything, would it be worth it for me to make my investment in a gen 4 Glock 19 and accessories, or choose something else to avoid the Glock 19 issues?

Extra information: I'm one of those lucky shooters who are right-handed, but left-eye dominant. When I began shooting I made the decision to shoot from my left side instead of my right, and I've shot enough for it to be comfortable and natural for my left hand to be my primary hand and my right hand to be my support hand.

theblacknight
06-02-2012, 11:03 PM
Sounds like you have all the info, you just need someone to tell you to buy it.


Buy a glock 19.

Glocks and M&Ps are still good guns, no matter what the internet says.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Shokr21
06-02-2012, 11:17 PM
I was in roughly the same position as you were about 5 months ago. I went with the Gen 4 Glock 19. Fully aware of the possible problems I might encounter.

My g19 was proofed on 14 sept 2011. In the first 650 rounds I had 15 fte and errant ejection of brass. I replaced the 336 ejector with a 30274 ejector and 800 rounds since have been rather dull in terms of reliability. It shoots and ejects every time I want it to go bang.

I'd go with the g19 and never look back.

_JD_
06-02-2012, 11:21 PM
We have one of the early Gen 4 19s, it needed to have the recoil spring replaced, other than that it's running strong and been put thought some decent use.

GJM
06-03-2012, 12:20 AM
Assuming you want a Glock 19, and want the best chance of getting a pistol that runs out of the box, and continues to run for a long time, I would Google up the Glock serial number list, and buy a Pre 2010 Gen 3 through Gunbroker or another source.

F-Trooper05
06-03-2012, 12:42 AM
I'm nowhere near comfortable enough to recommend new Glocks to my friends and family. Just this past weekend I was in a class with a guy who had a new Gen 3 that was flawless for the first 1,000 rounds, then all of a sudden it started malfunctioning in the class. Find a used Glock on Gunbroker and call it a day. That's my advice.

l8apex
06-03-2012, 01:02 AM
I've lived with the G19 for many years now and have gotten to know them very well. The information you will find online regarding the issue of the Gen4 is valid.

I'd recommend finding a Gen3 or a more recent Gen4. Had the woes of an early Gen4 until it was resolved by the new ejector.

Spend the rest of your loot on getting training and ammo. Spend extra time on knowing the G19 in out as well as your ammo choices.

lamarbrog
06-03-2012, 01:52 AM
As someone who has had minor, non-functional issues with a Gen3 Glock 19 in the ejection department, I will tell you to pick up a Glock 19 and don't look back. They're still a great pistol. Put it through its paces, if there are issues fix them, and get on with life. You won't regret it.

Tony Muhlenkamp
06-03-2012, 08:28 AM
I would find a used Gen 3, (and in fact just bought two, a 17 and a 19) but the pistol is not the only part of the "system" to consider.

See this thread

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?3052-Equipping-Beginners

Today I would change my mag pouch recommendation to either the Sidearmor or the Comp-Tac as some of the other commenters suggested.
Good luck

rob_s
06-03-2012, 08:48 AM
One of the biggest pitfalls to new gun owners is analysis paralysis. Simply, they get caught up in trying to find "perfect". It is unfortunate that neither S&W nor Glock can get their act together enough to make one or the other a clear, unequivocal, choice today. In fact, it downright pisses me off. But given that neither are perfect, you may as well choose either.

Things like "fit my hand", "points naturally", etc. are meaningless going forward. They only seem to matter until you finally figure out that they don't. What matters is getting a gun, spending some time on the range with it to ensure function, and then getting into a class. and resisting the temptation to "if only" this situation. Just stick it out with whatever you picked, it really doesn't matter what it is provided it goes bang with an acceptable level of reliability.

That choice that seems so overwhelmingly important when you're starting out is really one of the most insignificant choices in the long term. What matters FAR more is who you choose to begin your training with.

JeffJ
06-03-2012, 08:54 AM
I've got a Gen 4 19 - its my EDC gun and I really like it - Having said that, I've had to install the White Sound HRED and the 30274 extractor (ejector?) in order for it to run well. While it really ticks me off that it didn't run well out of the box, it's running well now and I'm happy with it - it took about $30 worth of parts and seems to be an easy fix, at least so far.

Will it crap the bed at some point, probably in a 2 day class? Maybe, which is why you really should look at acquiring a second gun identical to your carry gun as soon as reasonably possible for you. Any gun, even HKs are going to hit wear points and have mechanical issues at some point (I agree the the likelyhood with the HKs are less right now - but I don't really like them)

While there is some validity to the idea of getting an older gen 3 - I prefer the ergos of the gen 4 and if you're shooting left handed, I can see the advantage of ambi mag release.

I wouldn't be afraid of the Gen 4 - I would just go into it with the understanding that you might have problems.

MDS
06-03-2012, 09:46 AM
One of the biggest pitfalls to new gun owners is analysis paralysis. Simply, they get caught up in trying to find "perfect". It is unfortunate that neither S&W nor Glock can get their act together enough to make one or the other a clear, unequivocal, choice today. In fact, it downright pisses me off. But given that neither are perfect, you may as well choose either.

Things like "fit my hand", "points naturally", etc. are meaningless going forward. They only seem to matter until you finally figure out that they don't. What matters is getting a gun, spending some time on the range with it to ensure function, and then getting into a class. and resisting the temptation to "if only" this situation. Just stick it out with whatever you picked, it really doesn't matter what it is provided it goes bang with an acceptable level of reliability.

That choice that seems so overwhelmingly important when you're starting out is really one of the most insignificant choices in the long term. What matters FAR more is who you choose to begin your training with.

Wow, perfect. I lucked out in getting and following this advice when I decided to "get serious."

It's taken me about 18 months, 3-4 quality classes of different lengths, 5-15 minutes of dry fire (almost) daily, and I'll guesstimate 15K rounds, to get from completely clueless n00b to only mostly clueless gun forum expert. Early on, I switched to the g19 from the usp45, and I'm glad I did - not because one gun was better or easier, but because I never had to think about the hardware with the g19. Holsters, mags, ammo, knowledgeable smiths, sights, parts, all of that was so much easier to find for the g19. I was able to experiment with lots of different setups - I have a whole gun dedicated to experimenting. I could quickly, easily, and (relatively) inexpensively satisfy my curiosity, adopt the rare experiment that actually made a difference, and drive on. It's making my learning experience much more pleasant.

cosine
06-03-2012, 09:53 AM
I would find a used Gen 3, (and in fact just bought two, a 17 and a 19) but the pistol is not the only part of the "system" to consider.

See this thread

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?3052-Equipping-Beginners

Today I would change my mag pouch recommendation to either the Sidearmor or the Comp-Tac as some of the other commenters suggested.
Good luck

Thanks, that's a useful thread. Being new to this I'm not terribly familiar with what's available for belts, holsters, and mag pouches.


What parts in the Glock 17 / Glock 19 were causing issues? Spring, extractor, ejector? If I want to make sure I get the newest revisions what numbers on what parts should I look for?

rob_s
06-03-2012, 10:02 AM
"newest" isn't always "better". An older isn't always "better" either. I bought two Gen 3 Glocks, not because of perceived reliability but because I prefer the grip, and both are throwing the occasional brass back in my face. I suspect one is because of a worn spring while the other has issues from the beginning.

In all seriousness, go buy a gun and go shoot it. I'm not even remotely kidding. Just because the internet is awash in problems from one gun or another does not mean that these problems affect every single gun. Remember that people are far more likely to post when they have problems than when they have none.

Go shoot the gun and worry about problems if the occur. Trying to nip every problem in the bud before purchase is like trying to be sure you're buying the latest and best technological thing, it just won't happen.

rob_s
06-03-2012, 10:04 AM
Early on, I switched to the g19 from the usp45, and I'm glad I did - not because one gun was better or easier, but because I never had to think about the hardware with the g19. Holsters, mags, ammo, knowledgeable smiths, sights, parts, all of that was so much easier to find for the g19. I was able to experiment with lots of different setups - I have a whole gun dedicated to experimenting. I could quickly, easily, and (relatively) inexpensively satisfy my curiosity, adopt the rare experiment that actually made a difference, and drive on. It's making my learning experience much more pleasant.

Ubiquitousness is a powerful, and positive, thing. Unfortunately many prefer to be the anachronists in the shooting world. Or, should I say, gun owning world.

Show up to a carbine class with me and I have not only multiple spare guns but very likely every single tool and spare part to get your own gun running again. Show up with an Aug and have problems and you're on your own.

Savage Hands
06-03-2012, 11:24 AM
I'm really liking my 3 week old Gen 4 G19 so far but only have ~600 rounds thru it right now, comparing it to my various 2nd and 3rd Gen Glocks these are my perceived plus and minuses:

+'s
'Feels' better in my hand with no backstrap.
Top finger groove was lowered so it doesn't pinch you middle finger as much.
Possibly more precise (smaller groups) at 25 yards, I've only shot it at that distance once and it shot as well as my old Les Baer in my hands.
I like the dot connector, it has a slight roll before the break.
The factory texture is grippy but not rough.

-'s
Erratic ejection which I hope will be solved with Apex Tactical's kit.
Shoots to the left.

Tony Muhlenkamp
06-03-2012, 11:48 AM
One of the biggest pitfalls to new gun owners is analysis paralysis. Simply, they get caught up in trying to find "perfect". It is unfortunate that neither S&W nor Glock can get their act together enough to make one or the other a clear, unequivocal, choice today. In fact, it downright pisses me off. But given that neither are perfect, you may as well choose either.

Things like "fit my hand", "points naturally", etc. are meaningless going forward. They only seem to matter until you finally figure out that they don't. What matters is getting a gun, spending some time on the range with it to ensure function, and then getting into a class. and resisting the temptation to "if only" this situation. Just stick it out with whatever you picked, it really doesn't matter what it is provided it goes bang with an acceptable level of reliability.

That choice that seems so overwhelmingly important when you're starting out is really one of the most insignificant choices in the long term. What matters FAR more is who you choose to begin your training with.

+1.

Tony Muhlenkamp
06-03-2012, 11:52 AM
[QUOTE=
-'s
Shoots to the left.[/QUOTE]

At the risk of sounding like a self righteous know it all...shooting to the left is rarely a problem with the gun. Not saying it can't happen, but before you start changing the gun see if you can get someone like Todd to diagnose your grip, trigger, and follow through.

Or maybe you knew that and were just being ironic? :)

Savage Hands
06-03-2012, 12:13 PM
At the risk of sounding like a self righteous know it all...shooting to the left is rarely a problem with the gun. Not saying it can't happen, but before you start changing the gun see if you can get someone like Todd to diagnose your grip, trigger, and follow through.

Or maybe you knew that and were just being ironic? :)


I've only shot a Glock in Todd`s class and have never had this problem with the 7 Glocks prior, I suggest reading this thread where even Todd had the same problem with his 4th Gen: http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?1959-Are-Gen4-s-still-shooting-to-the-left

GJM
06-03-2012, 12:15 PM
Tony, another thread on Gen 4's shooting left is going -- as I recall, Todd's Gen 4 shoots left, too.

pr1042
06-03-2012, 01:55 PM
I just got done playing musical guns in an attempt to find the gun that felt great in my hands and I could shoot extremely well. I wasn't able to find it for some reason until I came to the realization that I cannot shoot extremely well with any gun. I finally decided to just pick a single platform, buy 2 to set up the same way, and then start training instead of reading about gun problems on the internet.

I only have software problems now, my hardware is taken care of. My next step is buying a AA conversion kit so I can train once a week instead of once a month. I still suck but am slowly improving as I take local lessons.

I say buy the glock

FotoTomas
06-04-2012, 02:34 AM
I do not have a lot to add. I like 'em all and often shoot and train with different weapons due to job requirements and my personal off duty lifestyle. It does not help that I simply enjoy sometimes making noise with a variety of shooting irons that have a sentimental or other intrinsic value to me besides personal defense or competition.

Bottom line...get the Glock, shoot it a lot, form opinions after extensive dry fire and live fire practice.

I am able to rationalize most any reason to carry most any gun. As I get older into my gray hair years I am beginning to think simple is in fact better when it comes to guns.

I will mention that both of my sons were given a 3rd generation Glock 19 by me. Neither has the shooting passion I do but both are interested and competant. They both had access to everything I owned and the Glock fits their requirements to a "T" and both are happy with their choice. They also are waiting for me to die so they can sell off the rest of the gun collection and split the proceeds! :) I might just start selling 'em all off myself for a vacation and keep a couple of Glocks around the house to keep me happy. :)

I will say this however. My early Gen4 G17 was truly a piece of manure. Averaged one malfunction per 100 rounds of factory ball and high performance ammo. Brass into the face every magazine. In approximatly 2000 rounds I went through three different factory recoil spring fixes with no luck. Sold it off. I hear that there have been improvements and that there is no longer a problem with the current iterations. I might well try another myself.

Tony Muhlenkamp
06-04-2012, 11:37 AM
I've only shot a Glock in Todd`s class and have never had this problem with the 7 Glocks prior, I suggest reading this thread where even Todd had the same problem with his 4th Gen: http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?1959-Are-Gen4-s-still-shooting-to-the-left

Thanks for pointing out the thread, I will read up on it and remember it for future. All I really know is that when MY gun shoots left, it's not the gun... :)

HighSpeedBail
06-04-2012, 03:03 PM
I've been shooting intermittently for a few years now, and have just recently decided that I want to get serious with practicing, training, and possibly competing. My shooting experience up until now has been renting something at the local range for an hour a couple of times a year. I'm basically a blank slate in terms of equipment and experience. I don't have any monetary investment in any particular platform, such as hundreds of dollars sunk into holsters, magazines, and accessories. Nor do I have any significant experience (muscle memory) with any particular platform. About a month ago I started going to the range every weekend, renting 9mm pistols (gen 4 Glock 19, M&P9, XDM), and seeing what I did and didn't like.....



First off, I am confident you will be happy with whatever gun you purchase. All are very well respected brands and keep in mind everyone is different. I hate to make your decision even more difficult but you may want to take a look at the:

FNH FNS Website (http://www.fnherstal.com/index.php?id=631)
http://www.fnherstal.com/typo3temp/pics/c720182d15.png




This is a review written by a die hard glock fan on the FNH FNS .40 (http://www.locknloadblog.com/2012/01/fabrique-nationale-hertsals-fnhfns40-40.html)


Good Luck
Ken

cosine
06-04-2012, 07:12 PM
First off, I am confident you will be happy with whatever gun you purchase. All are very well respected brands and keep in mind everyone is different. I hate to make your decision even more difficult but you may want to take a look at the:

[...]

Good Luck
Ken

Thanks for the suggestion, but I'm pretty set on the Glock 19. I posted this thread mostly to see if the replies would be "go for it" or "you might want to avoid a Glock 19." I was just a little apprehensive about getting a gen 4 Glock 19 since most threads I've been able to find discuss the Glock 17 / Glock 19 problems.

tmoore912
06-04-2012, 07:35 PM
As a lefty, why would you not want a gun with ambi controls? Serious question.

JHC
06-04-2012, 07:38 PM
First off, I am confident you will be happy with whatever gun you purchase. All are very well respected brands and keep in mind everyone is different. I hate to make your decision even more difficult but you may want to take a look at the:

FNH FNS Website (http://www.fnherstal.com/index.php?id=631)
http://www.fnherstal.com/typo3temp/pics/c720182d15.png




This is a review written by a die hard glock fan on the FNH FNS .40 (http://www.locknloadblog.com/2012/01/fabrique-nationale-hertsals-fnhfns40-40.html)


Good Luck
Ken

Thanks for the link! I'm looking for more FNS reviews.

cosine
06-04-2012, 07:47 PM
As a lefty, why would you not want a gun with ambi controls? Serious question.

The Glock 19 gen 4 has an ambi mag release.

MichaelD
06-06-2012, 10:24 AM
The Glock 19 gen 4 has an ambi mag release.

Yes, but it doesn't have an ambi slide release. Not that it matters if you train for it, though.

Little Creek
06-07-2012, 07:27 AM
I bought three Gen 4 9mm pistols: G17, G19, & G26. They all had ejection issues. The G17 Gen 4 was a very early production pistol. I replaced the RSA on each. I then replaced the ejector with the newest iteration. I am LH. I put the new "FBI" magazine release in the reversed position. These guns all run like a top at this time. I cannot remember the last time I had a malfunction with any of them. If I were to buy more and I will, a G34, I would check the date of the fired shell case, go for a recent date. I would also check the end of the ejector to be sure it looks more like a screwdriver blade than a leather punch. I like the grip on the Gen 4 pistols better than previous generation Glock pistols. The short frame or SF is for me. The G17 is for GSSF matches. The G17 is for my wife. That is the one she choose. The G26 is my concealed carry pistol.

rob_s
06-07-2012, 08:01 AM
While I realize that I said it doesn't matter what you buy, I think the below is a horrible suggestion for someone starting out. They will have a hard time finding any support whatsoever for that gun. That includes spare parts, magazines, holsters, etc. If the OP, or anyone else, showed up in a class I was attending or teaching I'd have everything spare, up to and including the gun itself, for a Glock to loan, and I will be aquiring similar support, minus the gun, for the M&P for classes I teach. As an instructor there's no way I'll start stocking support for oddball choices, and as a student you are unlikely to find another student in a class with the same gun as you, and therefore help for you, if you choose something other than the Glock or M&P. MAYBE factor in the XD.


First off, I am confident you will be happy with whatever gun you purchase. All are very well respected brands and keep in mind everyone is different. I hate to make your decision even more difficult but you may want to take a look at the:

FNH FNS Website (http://www.fnherstal.com/index.php?id=631)
http://www.fnherstal.com/typo3temp/pics/c720182d15.png




This is a review written by a die hard glock fan on the FNH FNS .40 (http://www.locknloadblog.com/2012/01/fabrique-nationale-hertsals-fnhfns40-40.html)


Good Luck
Ken

Cosmo M3
06-08-2012, 10:39 AM
one of the reasons why I sold my FNS-9

little or absolutely ZERO equipment support for the FNS

EMC
06-08-2012, 10:56 AM
I'm really glad I switched to a Glock 19 Gen 4. Fortunately my Feb 2012 gun has run well out of the box so far. I no longer have worries about parts or accessories being available. Mags are less expensive than most and readily available. It's a good feeling to be on a common platform with tons of aftermarket support and lots of knowledgeable and experienced people to help out if trouble crops up. I like having an "industry standard" that most guns are compared to when described. Glock is the chicken in "tastes like chicken" comparisons.

cosine
06-09-2012, 11:39 PM
After a little more reading, here's what I think I'll get:

Glock 19
Two 17 round magazines to accompany the three 15 round magazines that come with the pistol
Wilderness instructor belt, 5-stitch model
Crossbreed SuperTuck Deluxe holster and mag carrier for IWB carry
Comp-tac or Sidearmor OWB holster and mag carrier

This seems like it should start me out on the right footing.

BWT
06-10-2012, 12:53 AM
After a little more reading, here's what I think I'll get:

Glock 19
Two 17 round magazines to accompany the three 15 round magazines that come with the pistol
Wilderness instructor belt, 5-stitch model
Crossbreed SuperTuck Deluxe holster and mag carrier for IWB carry
Comp-tac or Sidearmor OWB holster and mag carrier

This seems like it should start me out on the right footing.

You can't go wrong with the Wilderness belt.

They're quality, I've had the stitching come out of the tongue, where the velcro happens, but my brother and father haven't experienced that.

But I'd agree with rob_s' on analysis paralysis, and just say, buy a gun you can afford, shoot it alot and see what you think.

I would suggest a single spare magazine carrier, if you were going to go with a double (it's not clear which you went with), but other then that... even how you carry, you won't know until you know.

I thought I'd love appendix carry, I bought an Comp-Tac AIWB 2 o'clock to hold me over until my Shaggy arrives for my Glock 17 Gen 4 (I bit the bullet and went with it, I've taken a brass casing or two to the face, but... it's at around 450-500 rounds of shooting before I cleaned it and it functions fine), so far, I hate this holster and I mean hate it. I loath that holster, it gouges me in the stomach, and I don't shave my chest/stomach, but... it snatches hair too.

I wouldn't say I'm a pudgy guy, but I'm thinking if I beveled off the sweat guard, I'd be happier, I just might, because... it makes carrying the gun uncomfortable, and I don't carry it for that reason.

ETA: I'd also agree with rob_s (maybe not in the same tone), but to avoid the FN FNS, as much as the gun looks great... get a gun you can have serviced locally, find parts and equipment for starting out.

I wouldn't recommend an something as exotic choice as a first handgun, a piece of advice, I avoided, and I regret it but hey, you live and you learn. ;)

rob_s
06-10-2012, 08:05 AM
After a little more reading, here's what I think I'll get:

Glock 19
Two 17 round magazines to accompany the three 15 round magazines that come with the pistol
Wilderness instructor belt, 5-stitch model
Crossbreed SuperTuck Deluxe holster and mag carrier for IWB carry
Comp-tac or Sidearmor OWB holster and mag carrier

This seems like it should start me out on the right footing.

Not sure if you meant IWB mag carriers or not, and if you do I would say "no", but otherwise yes, go buy this right now.

All this crap that we see discussed, and discuss, on the internet really, really doesn't matter even 1/100th as much as the volume of discussion would seem to indicate.

Al T.
06-10-2012, 08:39 AM
This seems like it should start me out on the right footing.

Not really. :)

To follow the analogy a bit further, you've chosen your shoes and socks. What you really need, as Rob has pointed out, is a trainer to show you how to dance, now that you've got the shoes.

Otherwise, you are like a guy who has purchased a piano but no lessons.

cosine
06-10-2012, 08:57 AM
Not really. :)

To follow the analogy a bit further, you've chosen your shoes and socks. What you really need, as Rob has pointed out, is a trainer to show you how to dance, now that you've got the shoes.

Otherwise, you are like a guy who has purchased a piano but no lessons.

Yeah. :D

HighSpeedBail
06-12-2012, 04:10 PM
While I realize that I said it doesn't matter what you buy, I think the below is a horrible suggestion for someone starting out. They will have a hard time finding any support whatsoever for that gun. That includes spare parts, magazines, holsters, etc. If the OP, or anyone else, showed up in a class I was attending or teaching I'd have everything spare, up to and including the gun itself, for a Glock to loan, and I will be aquiring similar support, minus the gun, for the M&P for classes I teach. As an instructor there's no way I'll start stocking support for oddball choices, and as a student you are unlikely to find another student in a class with the same gun as you, and therefore help for you, if you choose something other than the Glock or M&P. MAYBE factor in the XD.



You have a way with words Rob ;) I understand your thought process and I guess it makes sense for someone who's an absolute beginner.

However I don't expect everyone to be a sheep.


Oh and FYI - The magazines for the FN FNX will fit in the FNS (http://fnforum.net/forums/fn-fns/24981-fns-magazines-same-fnx-2.html#post257602) and I've read the holsters for the FNX fit the FNS.


I hope your enjoying your Honda Civic. :rolleyes:


Ken

EMC
06-12-2012, 04:59 PM
You have a way with words Rob ;) I understand your thought process and I guess it makes sense for someone who's an absolute beginner.

However I don't expect everyone to be a sheep.


Oh and FYI - The magazines for the FN FNX will fit in the FNS (http://fnforum.net/forums/fn-fns/24981-fns-magazines-same-fnx-2.html#post257602) and I've read the holsters for the FNX fit the FNS.


I hope your enjoying your Honda Civic. :rolleyes:


Ken

Careful, the following post was in that fnforum thread:

"The FNX and FNS 9mm mags are different dimensions and are NOT interchangeable. The FNS and FNX 40 mags are the same.
Hope that helps. "

I for one wouldn't want to gamble on the mags being interchangeable unless officially mentioned by FNH itself.

HighSpeedBail
06-12-2012, 05:13 PM
Careful, the following post was in that fnforum thread:

"The FNX and FNS 9mm mags are different dimensions and are NOT interchangeable. The FNS and FNX 40 mags are the same.
Hope that helps. "

I for one wouldn't want to gamble on the mags being interchangeable unless officially mentioned by FNH itself.


Very good advice. This was on the next couple pages of that thread.



Picked up my FNS-9 today.

As far as the magazines are concerned, the FNS-9 mags will not fit in the FNX-9. My FNX-9 magazines will fit in the FNS-9, but they are a little loose......



I shoot both FNX and FNS. Ther FNX will fot in the FNS and shoot but it is a touch loose. The FNS magazine will not enter the FNX.


I didn't mean to hijack the thread but I hope the OP is happy with his purchase. :) Stay Safe!

Cheers
Ken

ToddG
06-12-2012, 06:34 PM
You have a way with words Rob ;) I understand your thought process and I guess it makes sense for someone who's an absolute beginner.

However I don't expect everyone to be a sheep.

I don't think it's fair to say that choosing an established, well supported mainstay of the shooting world over the latest "new thing" makes one a sheep. In fact, as a general rule I think people tend to favor established performance over new and untested. The FNS may well become the greatest invention in living history and I for one think that would be awesome... because it means something even better than what is already established out there on the market.

But until that time, I'd have to agree that all else being equal the established product line is going to be an easier buy-in for a beginner. Parts are everywhere. Armorers are everywhere. Everyone he bumps into will own one, know how to shoot it, and have spares of everything.

HighSpeedBail
06-12-2012, 07:03 PM
You have a way with words Rob ;) I understand your thought process and I guess it makes sense for someone who's an absolute beginner.

However I don't expect everyone to be a sheep.

I hope your enjoying your Honda Civic. :rolleyes:

Ken


I don't think it's fair to say that choosing an established, well supported mainstay of the shooting world over the latest "new thing" makes one a sheep. In fact, as a general rule I think people tend to favor established performance over new and untested. The FNS may well become the greatest invention in living history and I for one think that would be awesome... because it means something even better than what is already established out there on the market.

But until that time, I'd have to agree that all else being equal the established product line is going to be an easier buy-in for a beginner. Parts are everywhere. Armorers are everywhere. Everyone he bumps into will own one, know how to shoot it, and have spares of everything.


First off, I must say I've been a big fan of yours for a long time. I've enjoyed your firearm tests, your posts and knowledge for the last couple of years and have been lurking around here for a while and hope to continue to learn in this community.


In regards to my post I just figured one obnoxious post deserved another. :D


I've been around here long enough to know that the majority of people communicate well and that there's a black sheep in every bunch.

HAhahahaa

Ken

srobin
06-13-2012, 08:39 PM
Ok, so yes I am new to the gun world. I am also a research and evaluate kind of person (actually do this for a living) I was at the same place until a few weeks ago. I tested approximately 13 different pistols (and one revolver that kicked like a mule) and through process of elimination I narrowed down my choice to a HK P2000SK. I really liked the glock 19, extremely accurate shot, but like everything else I googled, I read forum material, everything I could get my hands on to either buy into it or eliminate it. I made the decision to eliminate for one reason only. Glock is having a lot of problems, (so are a few other mfgs). I did not want my first experience with a pistol to be challenging because of the mfg problems. I knew that I was going to be challenged in defensive classes etc as I am starting from scratch.. a mfg problem on top of the learning curve?? - I'll pass..
I did however compare all other pistols to the Glock 19. Why because it had less recoil, where I aimed is where it shot, it was a good fit for my hand, and I really like the sights. Then I shot the HK P2000SK. The HK had less recoiled than any other pistol I tested, including the glock 19. It felt good in my hand, I shot it well, sights are nice.. but, the recoiled is significantly less. Very nice!
With that said, I would recommend the following. Take a few defensive classes. Try different guns, one per class. Narrow it down. But wait to invest until you know the following: (1) what is your goal. (2) how do you want to carry (and this is a big deal). (3) what is the primary purpose of this gun, ie. house, car, CCW etc. Once you answer these questions, you will be able to evaluate, narrow down and find a gun that you will be happy with. I personally will not CCW the HK, I am looking for an extra-sub-compact pistol. However, I have no desire to take classes with a super small gun. The recoiled is too great to shoot through 100-200 round per class. My HK is my learning tool. The super-compact (that I am still searching for) will be my CCW, and the HK will travel between my car, and home.
Hope this is helpful.
Srobin

cosine
06-26-2012, 12:03 AM
Picked one up with a test fire date in early June. It ate 50 rounds of 115 gr Federal Champion without a hiccup, although I did get a couple of 6:00 ejections. I hope to hit the range again in a few days and try some 124 gr American Eagle ammo.

If I wanted to upgrade the sights, what would you recommend? I don't need anything fancy, but would like something which would help me differentiate the rear sight from the front sight. The white "u' around the stock rear sight seems to blend into a smudge when I'm shooting and focusing on the front sight.

Also, if you have a Glock which can take different size magazines, how did you decide which size magazines to add to your collection? What were your thoughts if you decided to add some 17 round or 19 round magazines to your collection instead of buying the stock 15 round magazines?

Shokr21
06-26-2012, 12:11 AM
For sights I like the trijicon hd's, or ameriglo defoor's with the front blade getting a coat of glonation paint.

For my g19 I started with 5 15 round mags. I then picked up 6 17 round magazines for range use. That turned out well for me as I then bought a g17. Mags are really personal preference, I rarely load them to capacity at the range, but when I go home they all get loaded to capacity and placed back in my range bag.

rob_s
06-26-2012, 06:41 AM
Ok, so yes I am new to the gun world. I am also a research and evaluate kind of person (actually do this for a living) I was at the same place until a few weeks ago. I tested approximately 13 different pistols (and one revolver that kicked like a mule) and through process of elimination I narrowed down my choice to a HK P2000SK. I really liked the glock 19, extremely accurate shot, but like everything else I googled, I read forum material, everything I could get my hands on to either buy into it or eliminate it. I made the decision to eliminate for one reason only. Glock is having a lot of problems, (so are a few other mfgs). I did not want my first experience with a pistol to be challenging because of the mfg problems. I knew that I was going to be challenged in defensive classes etc as I am starting from scratch.. a mfg problem on top of the learning curve?? - I'll pass..
I did however compare all other pistols to the Glock 19. Why because it had less recoil, where I aimed is where it shot, it was a good fit for my hand, and I really like the sights. Then I shot the HK P2000SK. The HK had less recoiled than any other pistol I tested, including the glock 19. It felt good in my hand, I shot it well, sights are nice.. but, the recoiled is significantly less. Very nice!
With that said, I would recommend the following. Take a few defensive classes. Try different guns, one per class. Narrow it down. But wait to invest until you know the following: (1) what is your goal. (2) how do you want to carry (and this is a big deal). (3) what is the primary purpose of this gun, ie. house, car, CCW etc. Once you answer these questions, you will be able to evaluate, narrow down and find a gun that you will be happy with. I personally will not CCW the HK, I am looking for an extra-sub-compact pistol. However, I have no desire to take classes with a super small gun. The recoiled is too great to shoot through 100-200 round per class. My HK is my learning tool. The super-compact (that I am still searching for) will be my CCW, and the HK will travel between my car, and home.
Hope this is helpful.
Srobin

IMO this is a recipe for getting nowhere. I see the equivalent with ARs all the time. Constantly changing parts, constantly changing that, always chasing perfect. It doesn't work, and never will.

Buy, shoot, shoot more, shoot even more, evaluate along the way, assess, act accordingly.

We're not talking about cars here, we're talking about $500 guns.

GJM
06-26-2012, 07:10 AM
This may have been said somewhere previously in the thread, and if so, sorry for the waste of bandwidth.

It really doesn't matter what platform you choose, because what you are developing is your shooting skills, and not your buying skills. Buy a Glock, or whatever else floats your boat, ideally a spare, and a truck load of 9mm ammo. Learn to shoot whatever you bought. Once you develop shooting skills, you can apply those skills to whatever hardware you want.

gtmtnbiker98
06-26-2012, 07:37 AM
Ok, so yes I am new to the gun world. I am also a research and evaluate kind of person (actually do this for a living) I was at the same place until a few weeks ago. I tested approximately 13 different pistols (and one revolver that kicked like a mule) and through process of elimination I narrowed down my choice to a HK P2000SK. I really liked the glock 19, extremely accurate shot, but like everything else I googled, I read forum material, everything I could get my hands on to either buy into it or eliminate it. I made the decision to eliminate for one reason only. Glock is having a lot of problems, (so are a few other mfgs). I did not want my first experience with a pistol to be challenging because of the mfg problems. I knew that I was going to be challenged in defensive classes etc as I am starting from scratch.. a mfg problem on top of the learning curve?? - I'll pass..
I did however compare all other pistols to the Glock 19. Why because it had less recoil, where I aimed is where it shot, it was a good fit for my hand, and I really like the sights. Then I shot the HK P2000SK. The HK had less recoiled than any other pistol I tested, including the glock 19. It felt good in my hand, I shot it well, sights are nice.. but, the recoiled is significantly less. Very nice!
With that said, I would recommend the following. Take a few defensive classes. Try different guns, one per class. Narrow it down. But wait to invest until you know the following: (1) what is your goal. (2) how do you want to carry (and this is a big deal). (3) what is the primary purpose of this gun, ie. house, car, CCW etc. Once you answer these questions, you will be able to evaluate, narrow down and find a gun that you will be happy with. I personally will not CCW the HK, I am looking for an extra-sub-compact pistol. However, I have no desire to take classes with a super small gun. The recoiled is too great to shoot through 100-200 round per class. My HK is my learning tool. The super-compact (that I am still searching for) will be my CCW, and the HK will travel between my car, and home.
Hope this is helpful.
SrobinWhat are you seeking that will be smaller and as reliable as the P2000SK? IMO, when you go smaller, you not only sacrifice the number of rounds on hand, but you also sacrifice reliability. If you can't dress around a P2000SK you are either using a crappy holster, crappy belt, or you are wearing daisy dukes with a halter top.

deeHKman
06-26-2012, 11:28 AM
What are you seeking that will be smaller and as reliable as the P2000SK? IMO, when you go smaller, you not only sacrifice the number of rounds on hand, but you also sacrifice reliability. If you can't dress around a P2000SK you are either using a crappy holster, crappy belt, or you are wearing daisy dukes with a halter top.

+1 here!!!!

tmoore912
06-26-2012, 12:16 PM
What are you seeking that will be smaller and as reliable as the P2000SK? IMO, when you go smaller, you not only sacrifice the number of rounds on hand, but you also sacrifice reliability. If you can't dress around a P2000SK you are either using a crappy holster, crappy belt, or you are wearing daisy dukes with a halter top.


+1 here!!!!

Your answer is here. Well, maybe not the answer, but certainly more discussion: http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4460-extra-sub-compact-9mm-pistol-recommendations

rob_s
06-27-2012, 07:01 AM
What are you seeking that will be smaller and as reliable as the P2000SK? IMO, when you go smaller, you not only sacrifice the number of rounds on hand, but you also sacrifice reliability. If you can't dress around a P2000SK you are either using a crappy holster, crappy belt, or you are wearing daisy dukes with a halter top.

I can't stand this kind of attitude. I used to hear it all the time from the 1911 crowd with the "if you can't conceal a fullsize govt. model and two spare mags you're doing it wrong". (incidentally, I found that load easier to conceal than a G19 and one mag, albeit more of a drag on the belt)

Life sometimes gets in the way of people's desire to carry their ideal gun. There's nothing wrong with having smaller options for times when, for whatever reason, you can't carry the bigger gun. Especially for people starting out carrying, finding something smaller that requires less of an adjustment/commitment/sacrifice may well get them on the road to carrying full time, or at least more often. Some guys are willing to go out and buy a whole new wardrobe to be able to conceal their fullsize gun and two spare magazines, some aren't. If a guy is smaller to begin with, wears clothes that fit instead of the old-man baggy look, cares about his appearance (whether because he has to for work or wants to out of vanity/pride/whatever) and is just getting into shooting/carrying, finding something smaller that works with the clothes he already has with perhaps just a slight adjustment is a good thing.

The M&P Shield, for example, is smaller in every dimension but height than the gun he has now. I can't comment on the reliability etc. since it's new but if he's looking for smaller that might be an option. Or the Glock 26. Or maybe he just needs to ease into it and he's going to have to carry a .380 or a .32 until he gets the hang of things. It's better than nothing, but I don't think brow-beating the new guy into thinking he has to carry a "real gun" all the time is the way to go. I've carried a .32, a .22 mag, a .380, a .38, and a 9mm subcompact at different times for different reasons.

ToddG
06-27-2012, 08:08 AM
There's a pretty huge step between "if you can't conceal a Gubmn't Model you aint tryin" and "going smaller than the P2000SK is going to require other compromises you may not have considered."

If you follow -- and read -- the thread linked by tmoore912 you'll see the forum hashed out this exact issue at great length.

rob_s
06-27-2012, 08:46 AM
If you follow -- and read -- the thread linked by tmoore912 you'll see the forum hashed out this exact issue at great length.

Yep, well aware that there's another entire thread where (s)he got more of the same treatment.

TGS
06-27-2012, 04:26 PM
I can't stand this kind of attitude. I used to hear it all the time from the 1911 crowd with the "if you can't conceal a fullsize govt. model and two spare mags you're doing it wrong". (incidentally, I found that load easier to conceal than a G19 and one mag, albeit more of a drag on the belt)

Life sometimes gets in the way of people's desire to carry their ideal gun. There's nothing wrong with having smaller options for times when, for whatever reason, you can't carry the bigger gun. Especially for people starting out carrying, finding something smaller that requires less of an adjustment/commitment/sacrifice may well get them on the road to carrying full time, or at least more often. Some guys are willing to go out and buy a whole new wardrobe to be able to conceal their fullsize gun and two spare magazines, some aren't. If a guy is smaller to begin with, wears clothes that fit instead of the old-man baggy look, cares about his appearance (whether because he has to for work or wants to out of vanity/pride/whatever) and is just getting into shooting/carrying, finding something smaller that works with the clothes he already has with perhaps just a slight adjustment is a good thing.

The M&P Shield, for example, is smaller in every dimension but height than the gun he has now. I can't comment on the reliability etc. since it's new but if he's looking for smaller that might be an option. Or the Glock 26. Or maybe he just needs to ease into it and he's going to have to carry a .380 or a .32 until he gets the hang of things. It's better than nothing, but I don't think brow-beating the new guy into thinking he has to carry a "real gun" all the time is the way to go. I've carried a .32, a .22 mag, a .380, a .38, and a 9mm subcompact at different times for different reasons.

Dude.......srobin is a chick. So when gtmtnbiker wrote, "or wearing daisy dukes with a halter top," it has nothing to do with "man-up" and more to do with the fact that she might actually be wearing daisy dukes and a halter top.

Chicks from Kentucky (or any warm US state) tend to do such things.

TGS
06-27-2012, 04:27 PM
Yep, well aware that there's another entire thread where (s)he got more of the same treatment.

I think that other thread was actually pretty helpful for her, if that's what you mean by "treatment." There was one douchey post in the beginning, and everything after that was people trying to help.

What horrible treatment.

GJM
06-27-2012, 06:09 PM
On a small framed person, there is a difference between cover and concealment. In just a t shirt, my wife can cover a Glock 26, but to an observant person she isn't concealing the 26. With a J frame and appendix holster, she can conceal it.

Rappahannock
06-28-2012, 03:57 PM
I don't much care for Glocks, but I am envious of somebody who has enough sense to choose a platform and stay with it. In my case it was Walther products, but I can completely understand the lure of Glocks.

I wasted a lot of time and money chasing what seemed like the "perfect" handgun for me, like a carrot on the end of a stick. If you like Glocks, then buy one, buy a couple, and spend any remaining money on ammunition and training. Do not be waylaid by new, sexier guns.

Good luck. I like the way the OP is thinking on this .

Nik the Greek
07-07-2012, 05:21 PM
I've been working with a USP 40 for a while now, but I want to move to 9mm for reasons which have been enumerated here many times and don't really require repeating. I'm selling the USP to defer the cost of my transition, but I want to make sure that I make the right decision about hardware. No matter what I buy, I'll make certain there's cash for training and ammunition.

A small part of me was regretful that I didn't just start with a Glock 19 to begin with, since I made an expensive choice for a first handgun. I can't say that I've been disappointed with the HK on any front though, and I don't mind paying the premium for a good platform from which to build my skills. I like the P30, and I've already begun the process of sourcing a 9mm HK P30 LEM (for ultimate conversion to the TLG special). The concerns I've read here and elsewhere about Glock extraction and M&P accuracy have made me a bit leery of going that direction; I'd prefer to own a working handgun without having to fiddle around with after market or replacement parts to achieve an acceptable level of reliability (but I don't mind, say, fiddling with springs or trigger kits to improve function). I don't want to be blinded by brand loyalty, so I figured I'd benefit from the experience of others first, before I put the cash down.

TLDR: If you were buying an all purpose 9mm handgun today, which platform would you go with?

Joe in PNG
07-07-2012, 05:43 PM
I think that Glock has an advantage in a few areas- they're easier to work on, replacement parts are cheap, accessories are plentiful, ect.

H&K seems more likely to work out of the box.

Aaand I went with a M&P compact because I like the size- bigger than a Glock 26 but smaller than a Glock 19.

At least that seems to be the conventional wisdom.

Tamara
07-07-2012, 06:01 PM
TLDR: If you were buying an all purpose 9mm handgun today, which platform would you go with?
Used G3 Glock 19.

ToddG
07-07-2012, 06:04 PM
TLDR: If you were buying an all purpose 9mm handgun today, which platform would you go with?

HK P30.

DocGKR
07-07-2012, 06:06 PM
M&P9...

BaiHu
07-07-2012, 06:09 PM
I'm a P30 fan and own an L as well. Both in 9, obviously, given the OP's question.

I'd say if you like HK and you like the usp then the P30, IMO, is a more ergonomic pistol and I've run through about 15k rounds through it with no problems over 2 yrs and I only clean it once a month or 2k rounds-whichever comes first.

As for parts, you don't seem to need many, because it's solid.

As for mods, I'm not sure you need many, but you've got Todd's tweaks to be your guide if you feel the need.

As for accessories such as lights and holsters, no problem. Spencer Keepers (kydex) and Jim Ryan (leather) make awesome holsters that I own and there are many others that I've heard good things about that I don't own.

Good luck!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

YVK
07-07-2012, 06:20 PM
TLDR: If you were buying an all purpose 9mm handgun today, which platform would you go with?

P30, then used 9 mm Gen 3 Glock, then late-production Gen4 Glock 17.

GJM
07-07-2012, 07:43 PM
Before this thread started, YVK and I happened to be discussing this by phone, earlier today. My comment was that after all the futzing I have done with various platforms, it always comes back to Glock and HK for me, and he agreed.

I find it interesting that TLG would say the P30, after his extensive Glock test, and shooting the Glock so well at RSS.

I have always felt like the HK was the better pistol, with perhaps the best build quality of any production handgun today, but that I shot the Glock better, mostly because of the Glock's trigger characteristics, and obviously found the Glock easier to user maintain. The more time I shoot the Glock, and run the Glock trigger by rolling it, as opposed to staging it, the more it feels like a P30 LEM trigger. While I am committed to shooting Glock pistols for the year, I am itching to run some timed drills with my P30 again, to see how close my P30 performance, off the bench, is to the G17.

With all due respect to DocR, who I respect, I think a M&P 9, as made today, is fatally flawed by its lack of accuracy, which is or should be a deal breaker to someone trying to max perform their skills.

gtmtnbiker98
07-07-2012, 08:09 PM
P30 would be my first choice. However, with that said, I've been running a PPQ 9mm this year and to date, have just passed the 11,000 round mark since December. If you are looking for a do it all 9mm that is built like a tank, then by all means get a P30. If you are willing to broaden your horizons, you may also consider the Walther PPQ. Both of my PPQ's have been as reliable as any of my HK pistols and I've ran HK pistols for the last three years.

As for any potential concerns regarding the PPQ being "new" I am here to tell you that it is not new. It is an iteration of the P99 and was first released as the P99 RAD in 2008. When comparing the internals of the PPQ to the P99, one would be hard pressed to determine which was which. Both the P99 and PPQ share the same barrel, RSA and I'd venture to guess, 90% of the same frame components. Truth be told, a PPQ upper will run on a P99 lower, just to shed light on just how similar they are. My point? The P99 has been in production since 1997 with little to no known issues. So the PPQ is not "new" just an iteration of the P99 that replaced the P99 QA pistol.

Prdator
07-07-2012, 08:48 PM
M&P9...

Doc,

Didn't you say you had lost faith in the M&P's here wile back???


For me a Gen 4 G34 or 17.

Comedian
07-07-2012, 08:52 PM
Im giving the Caracal a shot. I recently picked up and shot a C & F model. So far they do everything i want from a semi auto better than Glock, HK, M&P, Sig and FNS. If they remain reliable, my search is over. I love these pistols enough that i don't mind being a beta tester.

BWT
07-08-2012, 12:14 AM
I'd say go with what's well tested.

I can't blame Todd at all for his decision of the P30, it's probably the easiest gun to go to from the box.

It's also one of the most reliable, it was tested longer than any other pistol. Setup as a truly ambi-gun.

I'd be lieing if I didn't say I strongly considered one before settling on the Glock. That being said... They're still tempting. HK's Parts sourcing is the only thing that makes me skittish.

Nik the Greek
07-08-2012, 12:15 AM
Im giving the Caracal a shot. I recently picked up and shot a C & F model. So far they do everything i want from a semi auto better than Glock, HK, M&P and Sig. If they remain reliable, my search is over. I love these pistols enough that i don't mind being a beta tester.

If you are willing to broaden your horizons, you may also consider the Walther PPQ. Both of my PPQ's have been as reliable as any of my HK pistols and I've ran HK pistols for the last three years.

Not to post off-topic in my own thread, but I was kinda really hoping that TLG would make a PPQ, FNS, or Caracal this year's test gun. TLG, why hast thou forsaken me?

TGS
07-08-2012, 12:43 AM
TLDR: If you were buying an all purpose 9mm handgun today, which platform would you go with?

HK P-Series, hands down. If I were buying, it'd be a P30. If I were recommending to someone who doesn't know if they'll like carrying AIWB, I'd say P2000 due to the slightly shorter grip which can make a difference in concealing at/behind the hip. The P2000 meets "all-purpose" better than the P30 because of this, just like a Glock 19 is more suitable for "all purpose" than a Glock 17.

If those are too expensive, then I'd go for the Walther P99......I think the P99 is a hugely overlooked option in a land of crapshoot accuracy or reliability among current Glocks, M&Ps and SIGs. It really does surprise me that besides JodyH, there's really no one else here who ever mentions the P99.

BWT
07-08-2012, 12:44 AM
Not to post off-topic in my own thread, but I was kinda really hoping that TLG would make a PPQ, FNS, or Caracal this year's test gun. TLG, why hast thou forsaken me?

He has a review on three modern Poylmer 9mm's that spans a year of shooting, it catalogs insights, reviews, etc.

He decided to go with a steel framed one. I imagine the FN will be a great gun.

Honestly... and maybe I'm mildly retarded, I have a CCC Shaggy arriving sometime this month after waiting 8 months... I've got my Glock setup the way I want it (mostly), Apex is releasing the Extractor kit to slay internet rumors soon, and I've run nearing a 1,000 rounds through it without issue. We're about to see the release of the Gadget, it's in beta test. But I still am eying the P30... My new boss loves HK, and I'm getting the new gun itch.

I dunno, I'd say try the new FN, I'm not someone that falls in love with anything other than a full size grip, usually, so, I'm definitely persuaded to that over the (seemingly to me) glock 19 size PPQ, but anyway.

That P30's talking to me.

ETA: Honestly, I was joking about the Apex, I mean it does correct an issue, that I'm experiencing as well, but anyway, we're on the verge of that.

What appeals to me is the truly ambi nature of the P30, PPQ and FN FNS.

Being left eye dominant and right handed, I've really come to appreciate the significance of needing to shoot with both hands well.

I really like the FN FNS alot, as it's the most affordable of the bunch, and it just interests me. I like the idea of a DA/SA trigger in the other guns, but I've never ran one...

I think it would be a solid performer and an easy transition from a Glock.

SecondsCount
07-08-2012, 12:53 AM
It is hard to beat the quality of an HK.

I am really liking the P30.

BWT
07-08-2012, 01:25 AM
You know what excites me about the FN FNS.

If it gets it right, *IF* it gets it right, it will be a great gun.

There was a trigger mod that Apex Tactical as a matter of fact, released about a year and a half, two years ago? Called the Forward Sitting Sear.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/rattle_head/6747482015/

https://apextactical.com/store/product-info.php?pid54.html

I believe it never saw much success due to the difficulty to install and the price associated.

I think the trigger shape takes a lot from that more aggressive, forward sitting profile, I believe it was inspired by the M&P in a ton of ways.

http://guntalker.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/430390220c.png
(From gun talkers website)

It seems the magazine release is larger and in a traditional area similar to most American arms, the slide release isn't obstructed by portions of the frame, in comparison to the M&P. It has a larger beavertail reminiscent of a 1911/Glock Grip Force Adapter/M&P9 and looks to hold well in the hand, but it also seems to have the benefit of checkering similar to a Glock Gen 4 RTF Frame.

Assuming the gun is accurate, and from what I've seen most FN products are... coming from the factory with those features and reportedly decent/quality night sights, at that price.

I think we may have found a phenomenal new platform. Matching Glock's capacity, over H&K's.

Interesting indeed...

I wouldn't mind putting a few hundred rounds through one.

ETA: The Sights are even dove tailed... Which I didn't appreciate until my FS developed wiggle.

Who knows, I like my Glock 17 Gen 4, but, I'd be tempted to look at the FNS.

GJM
07-08-2012, 01:42 AM
The FSS trigger is not at all like the FNS trigger. I had a number of FSS triggers, and removed them and replaced them with DCAEK triggers, which I far prefer for AIWB and non-games use. The FSS trigger is very short, very 1911 like.

You might want to peruse the long FNS thread, which provides a lot of detailed information, including a trigger failure mode apparently unique to this pistol.

As a person that owns a FNS, there is nothing special about the pistol, short of sponsorship and free ammo, that would motivate me to pick one over a Glock. Crappy trigger, no sight options beyond factory, very small thumb safety, and none of the parts and accessory support of the Glock.

GOP
07-08-2012, 02:16 AM
Well, I've shot the PPQ since January and for the most part I love them. One thing that is very annoying as a competition shooter is the lack of aftermarket accessories, and the fact that I have to compete in ESP. The sight options absolutely suck for competition in my opinion. With that said, the trigger on the PPQ is outstanding and the reliability is pretty phenomenal. Of the 15,000+ rounds I've shot, I have only had 8 malfs (all 8, literally, from the same 500 rounds of crappy Federal surplus ammo). Personally, I'm going to give an M&P a shot again. I bought a really nice M&P9c from VolGrad today and plan to run it pretty hard when I get it, and if I like it, I may switch over to them full time for carry/competition. The aftermarket support is phenomenal and I cannot wait to be able to get some Warren sights. Honestly, I have shot almost all the primary pistols available minus the FNS and P30, and I would have no problem picking one of the striker fired guns up and running a sub-4 FAST by the end of the day. Glocks, M&P's, PPQ's, FNS, and P30's? It really comes down to personal preference.

BLR
07-08-2012, 08:30 AM
I'd go with a P226 or P229. Followed up by a M&P.

No doubt the P30 is a great pistol, but the mag release and poor (to me) trigger keep me from getting one. Mostly the mag release.

JonInWA
07-08-2012, 09:03 AM
Gen 3 or Gen4 G19. While I conceed that on a part-for-part analytical basis that the P30 is of superior quality, I think that the Glock has been well established as "good enough," and is far easier to disassemble. And while I also conceed that with its both basic ergos and provided side and backstrap grip options that the P30 has superior ergos overall, I think that for most that after a period of familiarization and experience that the Glock is easily adjusted to by users-and even more so with the Gen4 varient, with its backstrap options.

Other than the LEM/light LEM triggers for the P30, I'm pretty unimpressed with the triggerpulls/reset of pretty much all the P30s that I've handled-they're certainly not horrible, but just unimpressive without further work, on an already expensive gun. And P30 magazine cost/availability seems to frequently be somewhat of an issue.

Regarding the M&P, given what seems to be significant re-occuring/ongoing accuracy and manufacturing issues in the 9mm varients, I'd be vary wary of choosing one at this point in time. And yes, while I'm concerned about the Glock issues (primarily in extraction) in both Gen 3 and Gen4 G19s, I do think that Glock has resolved them, and can make good on problematic guns.

Ultimately, however, between a Glock G19 and the HK P30 it's not like there's a bad decision to be made.



Best, Jon

JodyH
07-08-2012, 09:42 AM
HK P-Series, hands down. If I were buying, it'd be a P30. If I were recommending to someone who doesn't know if they'll like carrying AIWB, I'd say P2000 due to the slightly shorter grip which can make a difference in concealing at/behind the hip. The P2000 meets "all-purpose" better than the P30 because of this, just like a Glock 19 is more suitable for "all purpose" than a Glock 17.

If those are too expensive, then I'd go for the Walther P99......I think the P99 is a hugely overlooked option in a land of crapshoot accuracy or reliability among current Glocks, M&Ps and SIGs. It really does surprise me that besides JodyH, there's really no one else here who ever mentions the P99.
P2000 LEM for me, for the above mentioned reasons.
I tried to make the P30 work, but that extra 1/2" of grip was the killer for living with it day to day on my skinny frame AIWB.
P2000 vs. P30, you lose 2 rounds and the side panels. You also lose 1/2" of grip length and that shirt catching, skin abrading Spideman grip.
Good trade IMO.

P99 was my first "hard use" gun and it performed splendidly through multiple training classes and thousands of rounds.
I recently bought my wife a PPQ and it is a superb evolution of the P99 line.
Do not overlook the Walther PPQ.

gtmtnbiker98
07-08-2012, 10:39 AM
I just cannot get over how Glock still receives a "pass" given their current issues. I mean it takes a third party company to 'fix' their extraction woes, but yet, they still receive the Gold Standard stamp of approval? Talk about being "Sheeple." Oh, it's a Glock, we forgive, "lets play magical parts swap and hope this cures the cuts and bruises on my forehead." I don't get it.

In all the training classes I've attended over the last three years, the main platform I have seen fail is the Glock. In one class, out of four Glocks, I witnessed three go down. But we still give them a "pass." The Kool Aid must be good.

JodyH
07-08-2012, 11:00 AM
I really like Glocks.
I recommend Glocks to my CCW students all the time.
2nd and 3rd Gen Glocks in 9mm.
There is no way I'd choose a 4th Gen Glock over a P-series H&K.
There is no way I'd sell my 2nd Gen 17, and I'd be 100% comfortable strapping it on for daily carry tomorrow.

As to M&P's, I still don't have any faith in S&W.
I take that back.
I have complete faith in S&W to take a good gun and screw it up while trying to save $0.01 per unit.

JonInWA
07-08-2012, 11:31 AM
I'm one "sheeple" (obviously) that does continue to endorse Glocks. Not blindly; I have a 10/11/11 production, SDA- prefix serial Gen 3 that I won in a GSSF competition; immediately upon its arrival, I replaced the MIM/dip extractor with a NOS cast LCI extractor, and my sample size of exactly one has performed exactly the same as my earlier Gen 3 G19-superbly.

I'm not happy with the issues that have cropped up on some of the latter-production Gen 3 and Gen4 Glocks; it seems like the only one to emerge unscathed from the Gen4 process is the Gen4 G21. However, I am comfortable that Glock has attained (arguably grudgingly and in fits and starts) the knowledge, techniques and corrected component(s) to successfully address the issues.

Without meaning to turn this thread into a Glock-versus-HK diatribe, I respectfully submit that HK has not necessarily enjoyed the most stellar reputation in dealing with issues, problems and aftermarket support in the past; hopefully that has changed for the better.

As has been thoroughly discussed in several previous pistol-forum threads, today there probably is no "perfect" out-of-the-box gun; all should be subject to scrutiny, familiarization, and being thoroughly wrung-out before being trusted in the field.

Best, Jon

Jay Cunningham
07-08-2012, 11:37 AM
I just cannot get over how Glock still receives a "pass" given their current issues. I mean it takes a third party company to 'fix' their extraction woes, but yet, they still receive the Gold Standard stamp of approval? Talk about being "Sheeple." Oh, it's a Glock, we forgive, "lets play magical parts swap and hope this cures the cuts and bruises on my forehead." I don't get it.

In all the training classes I've attended over the last three years, the main platform I have seen fail is the Glock. In one class, out of four Glocks, I witnessed three go down. But we still give them a "pass." The Kool Aid must be good.

Oh, so this is a "Glock sucks" thread?

Okay.

JV_
07-08-2012, 11:41 AM
No doubt the P30 is a great pistol, but the mag release and poor (to me) trigger keep me from getting one. Mostly the mag release.

The P30's mag release is the one thing I miss about that gun; when actuated with the trigger finger, it's very fast, and helps me maintain a solid grip on the gun.

nwhpfan
07-08-2012, 11:55 AM
TLDR: If you were buying an all purpose 9mm handgun today, which platform would you go with?

XDM9

gtmtnbiker98
07-08-2012, 11:59 AM
Oh, so this is a "Glock sucks" thread?

Okay.
Nope. OP asked a question and still, despite known issues, many still blindly recommend Glock. I just don't know why? That's all.

If I struck a nerve - well, it is what it is. It's a direct observation and a query. Nothing more, nothing less.

Jay Cunningham
07-08-2012, 12:13 PM
They "blindly" recommend Glock?

Okay.

Oh BTW, I recommend you save that passive-aggressive "must have struck a nerve" stuff for a forum with lesser informed and experienced members.

Seriously.

TGS
07-08-2012, 12:13 PM
Without meaning to turn this thread into a Glock-versus-HK diatribe, I respectfully submit that HK has not necessarily enjoyed the most stellar reputation in dealing with issues, problems and aftermarket support in the past; hopefully that has changed for the better.

Jon,

So their parts support sucks. I don't see how that is worse than gun-not-worky (Gen4), or gun-can't-hit-target (M&P) in the first place.

However, their customer service is outstanding and second to none.

__________________________________________________ ______________________________________________
Break.....................Break................... ....Break................................
__________________________________________________ ______________________________________________


As for the price, I always see people bring that up. I don't get that either, because the same people quoting price as an issue will still buy a SIG or 1911.....so $2000 for a 1911 is okay, but $900-$1100 for a gun that is a bomb-proof reliable design isn't? Perhaps the price is right given that the majority of platform types in the $500-$700 range have design and/or QC problems (slide locks up when hit from the front, trigger doesn't break when left in the heat, mag spring tempering, extractor issues, RSA issues, accuracy issues, ect). Actually, the only NIB gun I can think of in the Glock/M&P range that doesn't have a quirk is the Walther P99 or PPQ.

So, yeah, I see where gtmtnbiker98 just doesn't get it. I don't get it either. Apparently a cheap price, so-so to poor CS, laundry list of problems and awesome parts availability is better than no design issues, awesome CS, and poor parts availability. I don't get it. It's not an HK vs Glock thing.....it's a decision making process that I can't understand. People on this website talk about how important it is to have a reliable, vetted gun that they can at the very least hit a 8" circle at 25 yards but they go ahead and keep buying the same problem platform over and over, tinkering with different part numbers to get it to work right, or simply hoping that the next M&P out of the 6 that they bought will hit inside 8" at 25 yards. Have you ever seen a bigger disconnect?

This isn't a HK vs the world thing. I mentioned the Walther P99 as being hugely overlooked as well.


P99 was my first "hard use" gun and it performed splendidly through multiple training classes and thousands of rounds.
I recently bought my wife a PPQ and it is a superb evolution of the P99 line.
Do not overlook the Walther PPQ.

Totally. I just don't think it's as well suited to general purpose use given its trigger. I feel the QA or AS triggers are more appropriate for carry for the same reasons I think carrying cocked and unlocked isn't the best choice for carry.

ToddG
07-08-2012, 12:14 PM
All opinions subject to change:

Beretta -- Practically a non-player these days. Everything since the 92-series has been questionable at best, and the best of the 92-series guns aren't made anymore. I'd use a 92FS if I was in the military and wanted to practice with something similar to my issued gun. Otherwise, not so much. The 92G Vertec I own is a fantastic gun and the 92G Compact -- made only in small numbers and discontinued years ago -- was one of the best carry guns I ever used.

Caracal -- This could be the great sleeper in the gun industry but a lot of people will have to put a lot of rounds downrange through a lot of pistols before I'd take it seriously. Lack of aftermarket support (and no real track record of warranty, etc.) makes this a Someone Else's Problem gun in my mind for now.

Glock -- I still see enough people having problems with gen4 or late model gen3 guns that I feel it's worth keeping in mind. Many of them work, but a whole lot more of them have problems than was the case five years ago. When you stake your reputation on Perfection and then give people this much reason for doubting basic reliability, it bites you in the behind. We shouldn't need to be excited about APEX solving the problem for the tiny percentage of Glock owners who will ever become aware of APEX.

FNS -- Still far too new to judge but early reports have been all over the map. The potential trigger issue which has been discussed previously here on the forum is troubling. The company's reputation for customer service is extremely poor... but FN has such tiny penetration into the civilian sector that most folks aren't even aware of it. Still, like the Caracal, this gun has a lot of potential. A few years from now it could be the New Glock.

HK -- Certainly not perfect and I've seen enough of them with issues (including my own test gun right out of the box) to believe in them blindly, but so far they still demonstrate to me the gold standard in design and manufacturing. No one is ever going to wait on an APEX extractor for the P30. HK's customer service is orders of magnitude better than it used to be and I know from both first- and second-hand experience that they take warranty service very seriously. LEM is the way to go imho as I've found the DA/SA versions to be mediocre in the trigger department. Aftermarket support is improving. Cost is high and availability of some critical items (like magazines) can be spotty. Maintenance is easy (just clean and lube until you hit 25k) until it's not (detail stripping and reassembling is complicated). I'm a confessed HK fanboy.

SIG -- One of the best, most proven designs on the market, the current crop of P22x-series guns suffers from well publicized issues related to quality control and parts selection these days. But a P226R w/SRT trigger that runs the way a SIG should run is still one of the best, most shootable guns I've ever used. I have far less faith in a NIB SIG than a NIB Glock. But once the gun has proven itself, I continue to think the SIG is a much better option than most people give credit for. And the SIGpro/P2022 series guns are real sleepers: reliable, accurate, inexpensive, and reasonably shootable with the only problem being aftermarket support.

Smith -- Between a perfectly put together (in my favorite configuration) & perfectly running M&P9 and an equally ideal Glock, I'd probably give the M&P the nod. But the M&P takes more work to get there: replace the trigger components, replace the extractor, possibly replace the barrel and/locking block... that's a lot of work (and expense) to get a gun to run 2% better than a stock Glock. And Smith seems to make a sport out of developing new problems for the M&P to make sure it never actually buries Glock in the market. Their customer service is usually very good if you have a problem they think is a problem... but too often they think your 8" group at 25yd is "within spec."

Walther -- The PPQ continues to be the darling of some forums but my opinion of them is neutral. The ones I've shot haven't impressed me positively or negatively except that the trigger seems more susceptible to accidents. It's like they took the paradigm shift of the Glock (short, light trigger with no safety) and took it a step farther to prove they could. But for the legions of shooters who think their trigger finger discipline is infallible, knock yourself out. The gun doesn't do enough better/different than a Glock or M&P -- while having less customer support and far less aftermarket support -- to ping my radar.

GOP
07-08-2012, 12:19 PM
Do not overlook the Walther PPQ.

I completely agree. I own 2 PPQ's and they are excellent guns. In fact, the gun itself is definitely the best 9mm I've found.

The negatives to me are that they don't make a compact size for carry (the PPQ can be hard to conceal at times), the aftermarket support sucks (no sight options outside of night sights, holsters can be decently hard to find, etc), and spare parts are either hard to find, takes weeks to get, or are very pricey.

Jay Cunningham
07-08-2012, 12:25 PM
I would be happy to recommend many 9mm handguns out there, as most will function well and are reasonably accurate. And when I say "recommend" I mean I'm not going to tell someone that they're a moron for shooting something other than an HK P30.

People tend to become instantly jaded by their own individual experiences.

TGS
07-08-2012, 12:28 PM
I would be happy to recommend many 9mm handguns out there, as most will function well and are reasonably accurate. And when I say "recommend" I mean I'm not going to tell someone that they're a moron for shooting something other than an HK P30.

People tend to become instantly jaded by their own individual experiences.

No one called anyone else a moron. Is there a meaningful purpose for this post?

DocGKR
07-08-2012, 01:03 PM
"Didn't you say you had lost faith in the M&P's here wile back???"

No. Not at all. This year I did stop carrying the M&P45 I carried all last year, but that was because my current mediocre shooting skills, when objectively measured, clearly offer better on target performance with 9 mm, not to mention that the current fiscal crisis has resulted in my supply of free practice ammo ceasing--9 mm is a whole lot less painful to procure when the cost is coming out of my own pocket. I wrote:


"In closely looking at where I am at today, my bottom line is:

-- Despite having shot primarily .45 ACP from 1986 to 2011, I currently shoot 9 mm better than .45 ACP; as a result, I will be phasing out my .45 ACP usage and concentrating on 9 mm.
-- I currently shoot an RDS better than iron sights; as a result, all my carry/duty pistols will be equipped with RMR02's.
-- I shoot an M&P9 better than a G17/G19; however I live in CA and have over 100 pre-ban Glock mags, a large supply of Glock accessories and spare parts, and for my current non-uniformed pistol needs find the G19 to be a perfect handgun for daily carry, so I will be focusing on 9 mm Glock use for 2012."

In fact, I'd take my chances with a current production M&P9 over a recently built 9 mm Glock any day of the week, as I have completely lost faith in all current 9 mm Glocks. Same for Sig and Beretta. FN and Walther are not players in CONUS duty handguns.

Interestingly, having exclusively lived with a G19 this year, as much as I love the size factor of the G19, the more I shoot it the less I like it... I definitely prefer the M&P9.


"With all due respect to DocR, who I respect, I think a M&P 9, as made today, is fatally flawed by its lack of accuracy, which is or should be a deal breaker to someone trying to max perform their skills."

You are certainly entitled to your opinion and I do acknowledge that some folks have received M&P9's that may have had accuracy issues. However, none of the M&P9's I have personally seen, shot, or own have had any problems so far. All of the large agencies I have been in contact with that are shooting M&P's have been pleased with their performance and have not reported major issues. Hilton Yam has certainly had reasonable success with his (http://10-8performance.blogspot.com/2012/06/s-m-barrels.html) as has Pat Rogers and other industry folks I know using M&P9's. I have two more new M&P9's coming my way, so I guess I'll get to see how they do...

Fully concur with what ToddG wrote above. The way I see things currently, the HK P30 is likely the best built 9 mm pistol in the business, but is higher cost, harder to service, and is more difficult to shoot well for ME. The M&P9 is the most ergonomic and adjustable 9 mm pistol I've found, is relatively simple to service, and is the one I shoot best. Current 9 mm Glocks are the biggest crap shoot going--when they work, they are cost effective, easy to shoot, and simple to service; unfortunately far too many of the recent Glocks I have seen and shot are NOT working and Glock seems unable/unwilling to fix them.

gtmtnbiker98
07-08-2012, 01:11 PM
No. Not at all. This year I did stop carrying the M&P45 I carried all last year, but that was because my current mediocre shooting skills, when objectively measured, clearly offer better on target performance with 9 mm, not to mention that the current fiscal crisis has resulted in my supply of free practice ammo ceasing--9 mm is a whole lot less painful to procure when the cost is coming out of my own pocket. I wrote:



In fact, I'd take my chances with a current production M&P9 over a recently built 9 mm Glock any day of the week, as I have completely lost faith in all current 9 mm Glocks. Same for Sig and Beretta. FN and Walther are not players in CONUS duty handguns.

Interestingly, having exclusively lived with a G19 this year, as much as I love the size factor of the G19, the more I shoot it the less I like it... I definitely prefer the M&P9.



You are certainly entitled to your opinion and I do acknowledge that some folks have received M&P9's that may have had accuracy issues. However, none of the M&P9's I have personally seen, shot, or own have had any problems so far. All of the large agencies I have been in contact with that are shooting M&P's have been pleased with their performance and have not reported major issues. Hilton Yam has certainly had reasonable success with his (http://10-8performance.blogspot.com/2012/06/s-m-barrels.html) as has Pat Rogers and other industry folks I know using M&P9's. I have two more new M&P9's coming my way, so I guess I'll get to see how they do...

Fully concur with what ToddG wrote above. The way I see things currently, the HK P30 is likely the best built 9 mm pistol in the business, but is higher cost, harder to service, and is more difficult to shoot well for ME. The M&P9 is the most ergonomic and adjustable 9 mm pistol I've found, is relatively simple to service, and is the one I shoot best. Current 9 mm Glocks are the biggest crap shoot going--when they work, they are cost effective, easy to shoot, and simple to service; unfortunately far too many of the recent Glocks I have seen and shot are NOT working and Glock seems unable/unwilling to fix them.
Thanks for sharing your honest review of the various platforms. It is refreshing to see honest opinions expressed even though it may not be the popular stance.

Jay Cunningham
07-08-2012, 01:16 PM
In response to the "is there any point to this" question... yes, and here it is:

I've been moderating large firearms forums since 2008 in one capacity or another, and I have a really good eye for the exact moment when things begin to go south.

This type of question the OP presented is pretty common, and usually results in people recommending Glock or S&W or H&K. At a certain point the thread turns from recommending a certain "platform" to bashing a certain platform and wondering aloud how *anyone* could possibly recommend *something* other that this/that.

Well we reached that point. So a public prodding was in order to remind people that brand-bashing rarely does anything other than devolve.

So there ya go. Feel free to return back to the main line after this brief side track.

JHC
07-08-2012, 01:18 PM
I just cannot get over how Glock still receives a "pass" given their current issues. I mean it takes a third party company to 'fix' their extraction woes, but yet, they still receive the Gold Standard stamp of approval? Talk about being "Sheeple." Oh, it's a Glock, we forgive, "lets play magical parts swap and hope this cures the cuts and bruises on my forehead." I don't get it.

In all the training classes I've attended over the last three years, the main platform I have seen fail is the Glock. In one class, out of four Glocks, I witnessed three go down. But we still give them a "pass." The Kool Aid must be good.

14 great running Glocks including new Gen 3's and 8 Gen 4's - what would a sheeple like me give them a pass over?

From the bandwidth condeming Glock since 2010 I hardly think they've gotten much of a pass anyway. Less of a pass than S&W has gotten considering their chronic capability to screw up good designs and produce weak specimens.

OK posted with quote before I saw Jay's note but I'll leave it for now.

Several users have reported getting this Glock OEM part from Midway and it fixing their problematic Glocks. I recall at least one who reported getting his pistol back from Glock with this part provided by Smyrna. I hope it's a sign they made a big step up for small parts quality.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/764545/glock-extractor-glock-17-19-26-34-with-loaded-chamber-indicator-carbon-steel-matte

GJM
07-08-2012, 02:10 PM
Similar Glock experience here. With a sample of 7 Gen 4 and 7 recently purchased Gen 3 Glock 9's, I have only experienced a stoppage in a single Gen 3 17. Not a single stoppage in the other 13 9mm Glock pistols through thousands of rounds. Leaving aside the accuracy problems, I have had multiple reasons to return M&P 9's for reliability/function issues such as extractor problems and magazines not dropping freely.

What I do know, despite my appreciation for the ergos of the M&P, is that out of a sample greater than 10, I do not have a single M&P 9 that will shoot a range of loads under 4 inches at 25 yards. Typically my "good" M&P 9's will shoot one or two loads acceptably, and most other loads into 6-8 inches at 25 yards. While no doubt they are out there, I am not aware of a single M&P 9 that will shoot a range of loads under 4 inches at 25 yards, and continue to maintain that level of accuracy as parts wear. Every Glock and HK 9mm I own easily meets that accuracy standard.

I don't feel like I am drinking the Glock cool-aid, as I really prefer most everything about the HK, with few exceptions -- my ability to easily work on a Glock with readily available parts, the availability of a Glock in 10mm for Alaska, and, the big one, that I shoot a Glock better than a HK. Historically, I shot a M&P better than a Glock, but with a lot of effort, I have closed that gap enough, that it is hardly measurable.

Finally, the Glock has become the world's pistol, and even if I become able to shoot an HK as well as a Glock, and HK made a 10mm, it is hard to imagine a serious shooter not owning and having proficiency with the Glock system.

David Armstrong
07-08-2012, 03:23 PM
TLDR: If you were buying an all purpose 9mm handgun today, which platform would you go with?
Glock. Not so sure about the new Gen 4 version, but I went with Glock back in the early 1990s and settled on a Gen 2 G17 and G19. And a while back I found Gen 2 G22 that I picked up for compatibility with local LE. I've had no reason to regret the choice in close to 2 decades.

BWT
07-08-2012, 03:26 PM
Seems I was wrong about the FN FNS.

Here's something I'd like to point out objectively of what I use, etc.

Most guns, to get in people's preferred fashion from the Factory need changes. IMHO, the Glock needs an extended magazine release and a different connector, the M&P 9 needs the APEX DCAEK, and the H&K is currently not offered in the what is to referred to as? V4 LEM?

I would say anyone that looks at a gun and goes "Oh, well everyone needs to do *this* to that gun to make it reliable or change it." When in reality, I think if you're going to wring the best performance out of any gun, you're going to need to change things. Like sights, because I can tell you all three of those brands above, sights suck from the Factory. Seems they also all need trigger work to reach their peak performance.

So if I was shopping, I wouldn't be deterred maybe by the way something "looks" from the Factory or how it works from the Factory, because most of those guns have decent to excellent after market support.

I think if the M&P didn't have APEX... it would not be the same gun that's strongly favored by many, and I say this knowing I'm ordering a RAM today for my Dad to try out on his M&P.

EVP
07-08-2012, 03:31 PM
Another thing I might add is that you really need to handle and shoot these guns. It sounds cliche and some people repeat it without understanding why?

For me I found out by shooting the g19 that I much preferred the aftermarket Vickers parts. I also found out I needed stippiling and rounding the underside of the trigger undercut. Plus I want the Gadget, but there is not time table on that yet.

None of this is a big deal and these are very common upgrades. But for me the HK p30 LEM did not need anything other then real night sights. I wanted a gun that I could get and really not have to mess with aftermarket stuff and just shoot it. Parts have not been a problem for me as I have spare springs and such. Plus you already have some experience running a HK with similar controls.

Ps: any gun you are going to get most likely will need good aftermarket night sights.

Carraway
07-08-2012, 03:57 PM
I did a lot of research, shopping and handling of 9mm pistols a bit ago. I also shot a few. I wound up with a certified used Sig P226 (no rail and the frame is marked Germany).

The major factor in my decision was simply that it felt better to me, particularly against the other main contenders at that point, a new P226 and a Gen 3 Glock 17. I liked the feel of the Gen 4 Glock 17 quite a bit as well, but my experience with an S&W Sigma--particularly in comparison to an S&W 5946--had me questioning if I wanted a striker-fired, polymer framed pistol.

I'm not sure if the 226 is the best all-purpose gun, however, as it's fairly large and heavy for concealed carry, but beyond that I'm very impressed with mine thus far. I even finally got some time to take the concealed carry class last weekend and used it.

I am considering a smaller pistol for concealed carry, however, particularly something for short hikes.

GJM
07-08-2012, 04:06 PM
I think how a pistol feels is overrated. For example, to a 1911 shooter, the Glock points wrong and has a terrible trigger. Many spend money for a grip reduction, to make the Glock point like a 1911, where if they shot a few hundred rounds, it would likely point fine for them. Then they try to recreate a 1911 trigger in a Glock .... I think the thing that should matter is your performance on known drills, after a reasonable transition, using best practice for shooting that pistol.

I also think that people think they can buy performance, when what they really can buy is reliability, accuracy, and build quality. The performance part, excepting minute differences, unfortunately can't be bought, and can only be earned through practice.

Nik the Greek
07-08-2012, 04:13 PM
So if I was shopping, I wouldn't be deterred maybe by the way something "looks" from the Factory or how it works from the Factory, because most of those guns have decent to excellent after market support.

I think if the M&P didn't have APEX... it would not be the same gun that's strongly favored by many, and I say this knowing I'm ordering a RAM today for my Dad to try out on his M&P.

Unless I missed something, all the modifications you mentioned improve function, but I'm okay with that. I fully expect that it's the nature of the firearms world that, to optimize the tool, a little bit of tinkering will be necessary after the fact. Equally, it's also my opinion that the tinkering shouldn't ever be mandatory.

What I'm not cool with is having to order aftermarket parts simply to achieve an appropriate minimum standard of reliability or accuracy - because that suggests to me that a downward slide could be occurring on the manufacturer's end that could impact not only my purchase, but also future products, parts and service. That seems to be a risk with the M&P and newer production Glocks.

JV_
07-08-2012, 04:25 PM
I think how a pistol feels is overrated.I agree.

Tamara
07-08-2012, 04:45 PM
I think if the M&P didn't have APEX... it would not be the same gun that's strongly favored by many...

Bear in mind that if the M&P didn't already have the market penetration to make it worthwhile, Apex likely never would have gotten into the M&P aftermarket biz in the first place. ;)

I do think that the importance of aftermarket support/market penetration should not be overlooked, however. If you carry a Glock/1911 or, to a slightly lesser extent, a classic P-2xx SIG or Smith M&P, pretty much any catalog you pick up, backwoods gun shop you walk into, or small-volume holster-maker you contact is going to be able to support your gun. That's a nice feeling, and I feel it the way only someone who once toted a P7M8 can feel it. ;)

JV_
07-08-2012, 04:47 PM
to a slightly lesser extent, a classic P-2xx SIGFWIW, I was quite disappointed with the lack of aftermarket support for Sigs, especially with sights. In-Stock holsters wasn't that much better. I would put the M&P a couple of notches above the Sig.

Failure2Stop
07-08-2012, 05:36 PM
I would really like to see a modernized Vertec.
For me, it removed the negative issues with the M9, which I happen to shoot pretty well.

Right now, I think that the P30 is the best of the "duty" pistols available, but only if you are willing in putting in the time to master the trigger, money and time to get the trigger setup right, and are ok with the sight selection.

For the money, I think that the G19 is still the best option. From sights to magazines, holsters to parts, it is the most easily supported pistol I can think of. While the Gen 4 issues still loom, I have not heard of nearly the same quantity of issues in 2012 guns as earlier manufactured Gen 4s. Yes, they still need time before anyone will be able to say that they have regined their past reputation, but how long must we wait before warming back up to them?

Comedian
07-08-2012, 05:44 PM
I did a lot of research, shopping and handling of 9mm pistols a bit ago. I also shot a few. I wound up with a certified used Sig P226 (no rail and the frame is marked Germany).

The major factor in my decision was simply that it felt better to me, particularly against the other main contenders at that point, a new P226 and a Gen 3 Glock 17. I liked the feel of the Gen 4 Glock 17 quite a bit as well, but my experience with an S&W Sigma--particularly in comparison to an S&W 5946--had me questioning if I wanted a striker-fired, polymer framed pistol.

I'm not sure if the 226 is the best all-purpose gun, however, as it's fairly large and heavy for concealed carry, but beyond that I'm very impressed with mine thus far. I even finally got some time to take the concealed carry class last weekend and used it.

I am considering a smaller pistol for concealed carry, however, particularly something for short hikes.

I just picked up a CPO Sig P226 that i ordered from Gunbroker. I have owned a dozen Sig's of different caliber and model and the P226 in 9mm is my favorite Sig. I was jonesing for a P226 badly. Man is it accurate. I have never experienced a stoppage or malfunction in a Sig pistol. The P226 will serve as a range gun or as a backup, since i prefer the Caracal overall.

JHC
07-08-2012, 05:52 PM
I just picked up a CPO Sig P226 that i ordered from Gunbroker. I have owned a dozen Sig's of different caliber and model and the P226 in 9mm is my favorite Sig. I was jonesing for a P226 badly. Man is it accurate. I have never experienced a stoppage or malfunction in a Sig pistol. The P226 will serve as a range gun or as a backup, since i prefer the Caracal overall.

As invested as I am in Glocks both in guns/gear and trigger time it sounds irrational but a Sig P226 is on my bucket list. The two times I've shot borrowed ones they were very easy to shoot very accurately with speed. And I'm a sucker for accuracy.

Mjolnir
07-08-2012, 06:32 PM
Man... I don't like the buy-in price, cost of replacement parts (and few channels to obtain them) or the complexity - compared to a 1911 or GLOCK but... The H&K P30 seems to be the only pistol manufacturer struggling with Quality issues right now. Maybe they are not increasing manufacturing capacity and running three shifts... Just doing what they do best and let the demand (and cost) rise to maintain their profit. Whatever the truth may be its working/I'm convinced.

Hands down P30.

If anyone thinks well of the P226 may I strongly suggest that you give it a try, too. They are oh, so smooth and I, too, am very accurate with one. Add the SRT trigger to a Mk25 and I would be very content.

BaiHu
07-08-2012, 06:35 PM
Man... I don't like the buy-in price, cost of replacement parts (and few channels to obtain them) or the complexity - compared to a 1911 or GLOCK but... The H&K P30 seems to be the only pistol manufacturer NOT struggling with Quality issues right now. Maybe they are not increasing manufacturing capacity and running three shifts... Just doing what they do best and let the demand (and cost) rise to maintain their profit. Whatever the truth may be its working/I'm convinced.

Hands down P30.

I assume you meant this?? I corrected where I think you missed the word 'not'...if that's what you really meant.

BaiHu
07-08-2012, 06:49 PM
Im giving the Caracal a shot. I recently picked up and shot a C & F model. So far they do everything i want from a semi auto better than Glock, HK, M&P, Sig and FNS. If they remain reliable, my search is over. I love these pistols enough that i don't mind being a beta tester.

Perhaps this needs to be a new thread, but what sight set up do you have on the Caracal and can you 'thumb' the striker almost like a 'gadget' or hammer so you can feel if the trigger is being depressed during holstering??

I've seen your post about getting the C and F, but I'd like to hear more about them.

Thanks!

Tamara
07-08-2012, 06:51 PM
FWIW, I was quite disappointed with the lack of aftermarket support for Sigs, especially with sights. In-Stock holsters wasn't that much better.

True, but it's all a relative thing. For example, dedicated P2000 or P99 shooters read that and thought "You suck!" ;)

GJM
07-08-2012, 06:55 PM
My assumption is there is still a delta in your performance between shooting a P30 and a Glock. First, anyone disagree with that, and second, a best guess on what the magnitude of that delta is?

TLG, as I recall reported Ernie Langdon was shooting a P30 some time back -- any update on what he is doing with it?

JV_
07-08-2012, 07:22 PM
True, but it's all a relative thing.Indeed, I was comparing it to a Glock, which is an extreme case - along with the 1911.

Carraway
07-08-2012, 08:10 PM
I think how a pistol feels is overrated. ...

I understand your point. In my case, I was fairly certain that all the pistols I was considering were very capable and accurate, certainly more than my skills. In that case, feel, particularly how naturally it pointed and fit my hands and how quickly I could get good sight picture, became fairly decisive.

I'm pretty happy with the decision. Using the targets on this site (thanks, by the way), I'm getting where I can pretty consistently hit within the 2" circle at 7-10 yards. I realize that's not a great feat for most people here, but I've only been shooting regularly for six months or so. (I shot a bit growing up, but infrequently, and not at all in well over a decade.)


I just picked up a CPO Sig P226 that i ordered from Gunbroker. I have owned a dozen Sig's of different caliber and model and the P226 in 9mm is my favorite Sig. I was jonesing for a P226 badly. Man is it accurate. I have never experienced a stoppage or malfunction in a Sig pistol. The P226 will serve as a range gun or as a backup, since i prefer the Caracal overall.

I've had a similar experience. I'm still surprised at how tightly it can group shots when I do my part, and it's yet to have an issue. (I did have a misfire during my CCW test, but it was clearly a faulty round). It's been a pretty nice contrast after the issues with a Sigma, nearly all of which I initially blamed on me.

Savage Hands
07-08-2012, 08:33 PM
I just cannot get over how Glock still receives a "pass" given their current issues. I mean it takes a third party company to 'fix' their extraction woes, but yet, they still receive the Gold Standard stamp of approval? Talk about being "Sheeple." Oh, it's a Glock, we forgive, "lets play magical parts swap and hope this cures the cuts and bruises on my forehead." I don't get it.

In all the training classes I've attended over the last three years, the main platform I have seen fail is the Glock. In one class, out of four Glocks, I witnessed three go down. But we still give them a "pass." The Kool Aid must be good.


So what sub $800 gun doesn't have some issue of sorts?







And to answer the OP's question, my answer is a Gen 4 Glock since the extractor should be the only thing that may need to be replaced and cheaper than fitted barrel for the M&P IMO. I have no experience with the P30 but I know that the aftermarket is expensive overall.


Disclaimer: I am biased as I'm testing Apex Tactical's prototype extractor though I did also have worked over M&P's from them as well.

Comedian
07-08-2012, 08:59 PM
Perhaps this needs to be a new thread, but what sight set up do you have on the Caracal and can you 'thumb' the striker almost like a 'gadget' or hammer so you can feel if the trigger is being depressed during holstering??

I've seen your post about getting the C and F, but I'd like to hear more about them.

Thanks!

I have the straight eight style sights. I prefer to have as much site radius as possible, so no quick sites for me. There is an indicator on the rear of the slide, that you can use your thumb to feel if the trigger is being depressed while holstering. It works well. I find the trigger's on Caracal pistols to be better than Glock's and i was getting tighter groups with the Caracal's over Glock's the first time shooting them. I also like the extremely deep tang, that allows a very high grip. And of course the low bore axis. They are just really easy to shoot well. If the Caracal's continue to be reliable, they will replace my Glock's as my serious use pistols.

Comedian
07-08-2012, 09:03 PM
As invested as I am in Glocks both in guns/gear and trigger time it sounds irrational but a Sig P226 is on my bucket list. The two times I've shot borrowed ones they were very easy to shoot very accurately with speed. And I'm a sucker for accuracy.

I feel like I'm shooting a target pistol with a P226 in 9mm. Its fun seeing the hole's showing up on the paper, just where i aimed for the shots to go, one after the other. :cool:

balance
07-09-2012, 04:26 AM
So what sub $800 gun doesn't have some issue of sorts?



I can name three off the top of my head. Walther PPQ, Walther P99, Caracal.

If any of these three pistols had as many first hand reports of malfunctions or accuracy issues as have been reported by many here as well as many more on other forums, would anyone here recommend them?

I doubt everyone reporting issues is lying.

DanH
07-09-2012, 05:51 AM
PPQ has issues with sharp blows to the muzzle, as discussed elsewhere

Caracal is too new to have issues yet, but sights that are integral to the slide is a big downside, to me at least

gtmtnbiker98
07-09-2012, 07:05 AM
PPQ has issues with sharp blows to the muzzle, as discussed elsewhere



What does that mean? Never heard that description before.

JV_
07-09-2012, 07:10 AM
PPQ has issues with sharp blows to the muzzle, as discussed elsewhereI don't follow the PPQ, so I'm not familiar with this problem. Can you post a link or describe the issue?

DanH
07-09-2012, 07:42 AM
bleh that was the FNS not the PPQ my mistake

maybe im spending too much time here the post are starting to blend together ;p

Tamara
07-09-2012, 08:04 AM
I can name three off the top of my head. Walther PPQ, Walther P99, Caracal.

Neither the PPQ nor the Caracal has enough units on the market to say whether they have issues or not.

Comparing the Caracal to the Gen4 Glock problems or the recent manufacture M&P accuracy issues is like the guy who says his Taurus Millennium has run flawlessly so far.

I appreciate those out there doing the beta testing, but until there are substantial amounts in action with substantial round counts, we don't know what kind of issue these guns will have.

Gary1911A1
07-09-2012, 08:13 AM
I don't have the HK P30, but I do own Glocks and M&Ps'. I do have a HK P 2000 I often carry when I'm not carrying my 1911. Of the three it would be a hard choice. For me it would come down to the P2000 or the M&P with thumb safeties, but that's me as I'm concerned about the shorter lighter trigger movement of the Glock's trigger without any manual safety.

TCinVA
07-09-2012, 08:26 AM
TLDR: If you were buying an all purpose 9mm handgun today, which platform would you go with?

If I was to go back in time with all I've learned from when I first bought a handgun umpteen years ago until today, I'd buy a couple of Glock 17's, modify them so I don't get bit by the slide, and then just shoot them until they died.

If I had to start over again tomorrow from scratch because all my firearms had been lost in a horrible boating accident, I'd do the same thing, especially since the Gadget is on the horizon. This isn't to say that the G17 is my favorite handgun or that Glock Inc. doesn't have their share of issues, but I'm reasonably certain that if I had to start over I could procure a working weapon with relatively little fuss and with a few minutes of light customization I'd be set.

Cool Breeze
07-09-2012, 09:43 AM
If I was to go back in time with all I've learned from when I first bought a handgun umpteen years ago until today, I'd buy a couple of Glock 17's, modify them so I don't get bit by the slide, and then just shoot them until they died.

If I had to start over again tomorrow from scratch because all my firearms had been lost in a horrible boating accident, I'd do the same thing, especially since the Gadget is on the horizon. This isn't to say that the G17 is my favorite handgun or that Glock Inc. doesn't have their share of issues, but I'm reasonably certain that if I had to start over I could procure a working weapon with relatively little fuss and with a few minutes of light customization I'd be set.

This. G17 or G19...depending on what you can conceal better and will actually carry.

GOP
07-09-2012, 11:20 AM
My opinion: it matters little which gun you buy as long as it is has a similar action to the one you have used. Any striker fired gun (minus the LEM) would be easy for me to shoot very well, and I could probably pick up any of them and see performance within 5% on the first day. Honestly, they are all about the same. If I had it to do over, I'd buy a Glock or M&P and shoot it. Just get something with good aftermarket support and shoot it a bunch.

NickA
07-09-2012, 11:47 AM
For overall ease of ownership, I'd have to say Glock also. Not perfect by any means, but pretty much anything that doesn't work for you can be changed, which also allows you to find out what YOU really need in a pistol.
I've been thinking lately about the number of shooters here (all with a lot more skill and rounds downrange than me) who keep ending up back with Glocks after experimenting with other platforms. That has done a lot to keep me from buying something I might "like" more than Glocks, at least until my own skills improve quite a bit.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

JV_
07-09-2012, 11:52 AM
who keep ending up back with Glocks after experimenting with other platforms. I'll be the first to admit that my ventures beyond Glock have all yielded additional skills. I feel like my gun buying experiments and trials have bettered my shooting ability. It's expensive, but I do learn things from the adventure.

NickA
07-09-2012, 12:21 PM
I'll be the first to admit that my ventures beyond Glock have all yielded additional skills. I feel like my gun buying experiments and trials have bettered my shooting ability. It's expensive, but I do learn things from the adventure.
I fully blame your SIG experiment for making me want to try them out ;)
My thought process is simply that while I might gain some benefit from trying different things (like a DA/SA trigger) , at my mediocre skill level the funds and time are better spent getting everything I can out of the platform I have. At a higher level it's certainly beneficial, maybe even essential to have some diversity to keep gaining skill. Or maybe it's the other way around, what the heck do I know.
Of course if you want to prove me wrong feel free to send me your SIG's :)

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

DocGKR
07-09-2012, 01:58 PM
Three years ago I would have said a G17 any day of the week...unless we are talking about used Glocks, I no longer am comfortable making that recommendation.

JodyH
07-09-2012, 03:44 PM
Three years ago I would have said a G17 any day of the week...unless we are talking about used Glocks, I no longer am comfortable making that recommendation.

Three years ago a Glock 9mm was my default answer to every "what gun?" question.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2

Comedian
07-09-2012, 03:50 PM
Neither the PPQ nor the Caracal has enough units on the market to say whether they have issues or not.

Comparing the Caracal to the Gen4 Glock problems or the recent manufacture M&P accuracy issues is like the guy who says his Taurus Millennium has run flawlessly so far.

I appreciate those out there doing the beta testing, but until there are substantial amounts in action with substantial round counts, we don't know what kind of issue these guns will have.

The Caracal is a new platform in the U.S., but has been available in the UAE & Europe since 2007. The pistol has also passed the most rigorous NATO and German Federal Police trials. Just something to think about.

Tamara
07-09-2012, 04:06 PM
The Caracal is a new platform in the U.S., but has been available in the UAE & Europe since 2007. The pistol has also passed the most rigorous NATO and German Federal Police trials. Just something to think about.
The Glock, M&P, SIG P-2xx, Beretta 92 and CZ-75 have also passed all manner of various police and NATO trials.

(I'm at least passingly familiar with the Caracal, knowing the guys who were the initial US importers. The installed user base and field service track record of the pistol is still minuscule compared to the more established guns. Note that I'm not saying that they suck or anything, just that I tend to be pretty conservative in this regard; I mean, by my way of thinking, the M&P is a new and barely-tested platform. ;) )

SecondsCount
07-09-2012, 04:10 PM
Three years ago a Glock 9mm was my default answer to every "what gun?" question.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2

I have to admit I got tired of the Glock 17 and Colt 6920 response on the serious gun forums.

For years Glock had above average quality control but recent events makes me think something has changed.

Tamara
07-09-2012, 04:23 PM
For years Glock had above average quality control but recent events makes me think something has changed.

Oh, I think it's just that Glock has always played their cards close to their chest when it comes to screwu...er, "voluntary upgrades".

I was on staff at GlockTalk back during the tail end of the NYPD "Phase Three" malfunction scandal and the height of the "E-prefix" cracked frame rail flap, but I was off in 1911-land when there were apparently mondo complaints about .40 cal duty guns choking if you put a flashlight on them, so I missed all that fun. (Apparently just before I moved from TN to IN, the ISP had to trade in all their G22s? Yikes!)

Apparently "Perfection" translates oddly into Austrian. ;)

gtmtnbiker98
07-09-2012, 04:27 PM
Three years ago a Glock 9mm was my default answer to every "what gun?" question.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2What do you recommend now, Jody?

JodyH
07-09-2012, 04:27 PM
Don't forget the. 357sig Glocks that have a life span only slightly longer than that of the fruitfly.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2

Mitchell, Esq.
07-09-2012, 04:29 PM
I think the default answer in the future is going to be "X gun with extractor/ejector/barrel/Other from Apex/Lone Wolf/Other"

If you want quality, these days, I think going semi-custom is going to be a requirement.

Just a reflection of the times now, I guess.

I am not in the market for anything new right now; however, if I was, I'd simply budget for the possibility I'd be doing significant part replacement out of the box.

Nothing else to do.

GJM
07-09-2012, 05:54 PM
I assume the objective is to get a reliable and accurate pistol.

If the choices are Glock and M&P, based on my personal experience, the odds of getting a reliable Glock, out of the box, are 80-90 percent, and an accurate Glock, near 100 per cent. The odds of getting a reliable M&P 9 are 90 per cent or better, and the odds of getting an accurate M&P are, at best, 10 per cent.

With the Glock, on those small percentage of pistols that don't run reliably, you can fix the problem with a five digit ejector, a new Apex extractor, or buying another Glock. If you do have to buy another Glock, the odds are highly favorable that you will get a reliable and accurate one. The problem is, right now no matter what you do, and what you are willing to spend, there is no way to reasonably get an accurate M&P 9.

If anyone disbelieves this analysis, answer this simple question -- who here at PF has been able to locate a reliable Glock 9mm, and who here at PF has been able to locate a M&P 9 that will shoot multiple loads, four inches or better at 25 yards, to reasonably the same point of impact?

Comedian
07-09-2012, 06:09 PM
I think the default answer in the future is going to be "X gun with extractor/ejector/barrel/Other from Apex/Lone Wolf/Other"

If you want quality, these days, I think going semi-custom is going to be a requirement.

Just a reflection of the times now, I guess.

I am not in the market for anything new right now; however, if I was, I'd simply budget for the possibility I'd be doing significant part replacement out of the box.

Nothing else to do.

Good point. If the Caracal doesn't work out for me, i will order an M&P with the Barsto barrel and DCAEK and be done with it.

Savage Hands
07-09-2012, 06:35 PM
I think the default answer in the future is going to be "X gun with extractor/ejector/barrel/Other from Apex/Lone Wolf/Other"

If you want quality, these days, I think going semi-custom is going to be a requirement.

Just a reflection of the times now, I guess.

I am not in the market for anything new right now; however, if I was, I'd simply budget for the possibility I'd be doing significant part replacement out of the box.

Nothing else to do.



I agree! 10 years ago most upgrades were nice to have but not necessary, but now they're cutting quality to save a few pennies per part. After experimenting in the 1911 world, I decided that almost any mass produced production handgun can use some improvement from either a higher quality part or just some massaging.

JodyH
07-09-2012, 07:01 PM
What do you recommend now, Jody?
Most of my recommendations are to CCW students, so I recommend mid to compact size pistols and small revolvers.
2nd or 3rd Gen (pre-RTF) Glock 9mm's (19, 26).
S&W J-frames (640, 642).

May seem kind of odd that I carry a P2000 but I recommend Glocks.
I carry a P2000 because I carry AIWB and like to ride the hammer and the LEM is the best hammer fired DAO trigger out there.
Since I don't recommend AIWB to students there's no need to recommend the P2000 because the Gen3 Glock 19 does everything it does for a lower price with easier to find accessories.
If I had a solid, safe shooter in my class who was interested in AIWB then I'd steer them to the H&K.

DocGKR
07-09-2012, 09:05 PM
"If anyone disbelieves this analysis, answer this simple question -- who here at PF has been able to locate a reliable Glock 9mm, and who here at PF has been able to locate a M&P 9 that will shoot multiple loads, four inches or better at 25 yards, to reasonably the same point of impact? "

Well...the three newest 9 mm Glocks I have sitting here while acceptably accurate are NOT reliable enough to carry on duty, while the three newest M&P9's are both reliable enough and accurate enough using issued 147 gr JHP duty ammo and 147 gr FMJ practice ammo to be carried in harms way.

GJM
07-09-2012, 09:21 PM
What are the dates of manufacture and generation of the three Glock pistols? What are the reliability issues, and what have you tried to fix them? What is the sample size, as in did you buy three Glocks and each of the three is a problem?

Can you define accurate enough in terms of group size at 25 yards, and point of impact consistency, and the variation in accuracy you experience amongst different loads with the three M&P pistols?

DocGKR
07-09-2012, 09:42 PM
The 3rd gen 9 mm Glocks here with problems are late P and R serial numbers. Primarily extraction and ejection issues, as well as a bad trigger bar in one of my personal ones. Have tried new extractors, ejectors, and in the case of mine, two new trigger bars. Let's not even go to the issues the 3rd gen G22's have had, let alone the saga of the 4th gen G17's the past two years... I have personally bought two new 9 mm Glocks in the late Fall of 2011, but there are quite a few more that I have worked on in the past year. Interestingly, the G21's seem to finally be working well and we have not seen any endemic problems with the G26's. I will not be buying any more new 9 mm Glocks.

Acceptable accuracy here is very simple--the pistol needs to at least put 10 consecutive rounds all in the black of an NRA B8 bull at 25 yds. None of these M&P9's are having any problems doing so using Fed 147 gr HST, Win 147 gr RA9T, and Fed 147 gr AE9FP.

BWT
07-09-2012, 10:31 PM
That's some pretty precise shooting for a handgun off hand. I shot 3 or 4 literal one hole groups with a 17 round magazine at 7-9 yards last week. I can tell you I took the same focus to a head sized target at 25 yards, probably landed 7-8 of them within the head, some outside, I don't know the exact measurements but I'd imagine they're similar.

ETA: Now that I think about it... I am experiencing front sight post wiggle (I bought loctite yesterday, and I ordered a tool yesterday as well)... May have been part of it showing up at extended ranges...

I will say this, I think it was TCinVA, but, he's right, I noticed after I shoot 200 rounds of 9mm pistol, some with intense focus, some for accuracy, some for control, etc. I'm just wasting bullets beyond that. My skills/focus just starts ebbing off.

Maybe if it was in a class and it was dispersed over an 6-8 hour day, and it was 600-800 rounds, I might be better. But in the space of 25-35 minutes... That's about when I start seeing myself deteriorate as a shooter.

Could've been part of it as well.

Dude whatever, it was totally the gun, the atmospheric pressure, the wind in that indoor range, the sun in my eyes, Eli Manning winning the Superbowl again, it just all came at me at once, when I went to that 25 yard line.

ETA 2:

That all being said, when I shot my Glock 17, I did notice I was shooting markedly more accurate. Could just be me.

Nik the Greek
07-10-2012, 12:46 AM
Reading over the threads that have been posted here and elsewhere, it bothers me is that I feel like I might find a perfectly reliable and accurate Glock 19 that still spits shells back into my face. If I were going to go shopping for a G19 in the current climate, what do I look for exactly to maximize my chances of getting a decent specimen? 30274 extractor yes, but anything else to be aware of? It's exasperating that I have to ask. In an era where it seems as though everyone else is producing "quirky" hardware, I feel like I should reward HK with my business just because they're producing a dependable, quality product that I don't have to second guess my decision to purchase.

Actually, I think that's exactly what I'm going to do. I'm just going to buy a P30. Hopefully it'll save me a headache in the long run (except when I'm doing a detail strip). Next stop is searching the software forum for LEM trigger tips.

Interesting thread though, thanks to everyone who weighed in.

Ed L
07-10-2012, 01:30 AM
I find this whole thread and situation surrounding it very disturbing. At one time you could tell someone to buy a Glock 9mm and they would be good to go.

As reflected in another thread, about a year ago I bought a used Glock Gen 2 that was boppping me in the head with ejected cases. When I sent it to Glock for repair they returned me a gun that was bopping me in the head with ejected cases and having the ejected cases get caught in the ejection port in a horizontal position, preventing the feeding of the new round. The gun needed to go to Randy lLee of Apex Tactical to do some filing on the ejection port and extractor before it worked reliably without bopping me in the head with ejected brass.

I have a S&W M&P9 that dates to 2009, which is reasonably accurate (10 shots inside 4" at 25 yards is no problem). However the every few hundred rounds the gun would fail to eject a case where only the rim of the case was left sticking out of the chamber. Randy Lee was nice enough to give me his second prototype M&P extractor, and the gun has not suffered an issue like that since, which may be 6000+ rounds ago. The M&P also broke off the left side release, and had three instances where the rounds wedged together in the magazine--this happened with three different magazines.

Regarding the Caracal, I put over 3000 rounds through a pair of thems with only 3 malfunctions (one attributable to a friend severely limpwristing, 2 attributable to a gun that needed cleaning at the 800-900 round mark). I wrote an article on them for SWAT Magazine that appeared in the June 2011 issue, and wound up buying the compact version to keep for myself. This was a compact test gun that had the quick see sights. I sent the gun to Amerigunusa.com to have them put a tritium dot in the place of the front sight.

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i232/eds-stuff/CaracalQuickSeesights.jpg

They come with regular sights also, but they are fixed to the slide. This is a huge minus to me and most other buyers I would think. As it turned out I preferred the sight picture of the quick see sights to that of the standard sights.

The trigger is great and the gun shoots groups as tight as one of my Glocks or my S&W MP9 at 21 feet, but when you get to longer distances, expecially 20 & 25 yards, the short sight radius really becomes an issue.

From what I have experienced and researched, I have no problem recommending a Caracal, but I think it's features might fall short for many people.

I would be more comfortable recommending an HK USP-9 or a USP-9 compact for carry. These guns, while blocky are very durable and relatively problem free when compared to the newer Glocks or M&Ps.

One issue that we have to keep in mind is that some people, especially new people are not equipped to diagnose problems and put the right aftermarket parts in themselves--they also might have problems finding the right people to fix the issue.

k831
07-10-2012, 02:12 AM
The problem is, right now no matter what you do, and what you are willing to spend, there is no way to reasonably get an accurate M&P 9.



I was under the impression that there were after market barrel options that fixed the accuracy issues.

GJM
07-10-2012, 02:21 AM
I was under the impression that there were after market barrel options that fixed the accuracy issues.

The Apex Barsto barrel has been about three months away for the last year. Given their Glock extractor is about out, that Apex is a relatively small operation, and how big the Glock potential market is, one couldn't blame Apex if their focus lately has been on the Glock extractor. It is interesting that the two major platforms -- Glock with their reliability issue and the M&P with their accuracy issue, could both be rescued by one Randy Lee.

Comedian
07-10-2012, 06:30 AM
Kinda crazy when you think about it. That Randy Lee is fixing the problems that Glock Inc. and Smith & Wesson should be fixing.

Tamara
07-10-2012, 06:56 AM
Regarding the Caracal, I put over 3000 rounds through a pair of thems with only 3 malfunctions (one attributable to a friend severely limpwristing, 2 attributable to a gun that needed cleaning at the 800-900 round mark).

That's not terribly reassuring for a modern plastic commodity pistol. For heaven's sake, my last custom 1911 was fitted up tighter than Dick's hatband and would stack bullets at 25 yards and it'd go for a two-day, thousand-round trip to gun skool without a cleaning.

Tamara
07-10-2012, 07:02 AM
It is interesting that the two major platforms -- Glock with their reliability issue and the M&P with their accuracy issue, could both be rescued by one Randy Lee.

Well, I predict the Glock issue will be fixed by Glock in typical Glock fashion: Quietly. New guns won't do it anymore, departments will get their guns fixed en masse, and individual consumers stuck with an older defective unit will be Sierra Oscar Lima unless they actually send in their guns and make a fuss. There will never be anything like a "recall", and the "affected serial number range" will need to be deduced by the fanbois at GlockTalk in a stickied thread.

The M&P issue isn't an issue as far as Smith & Wesson and 90% of the American shooting public is concerned. Crack open the page of any gun rag since time immemorial and you will see that 8" at 25 yards is "combat accurate as long as the writer did his part."

David Armstrong
07-10-2012, 11:20 AM
Oh, I think it's just that Glock has always played their cards close to their chest when it comes to screwu...er, "voluntary upgrades".

I was on staff at GlockTalk back during the tail end of the NYPD "Phase Three" malfunction scandal and the height of the "E-prefix" cracked frame rail flap, but I was off in 1911-land when there were apparently mondo complaints about .40 cal duty guns choking if you put a flashlight on them, so I missed all that fun. (Apparently just before I moved from TN to IN, the ISP had to trade in all their G22s? Yikes!)

Apparently "Perfection" translates oddly into Austrian. ;)
"Glock Perfection" was the Gen 1 G17 9mm. Seems like every secondor third "improvement" made since then has moved away from that benchmark.:(

Ed L
07-10-2012, 11:25 AM
That's not terribly reassuring for a modern plastic commodity pistol. For heaven's sake, my last custom 1911 was fitted up tighter than Dick's hatband and would stack bullets at 25 yards and it'd go for a two-day, thousand-round trip to gun skool without a cleaning.

Well, compared to the problem Glocks, a gun that needs to be cleaned at the 800 round mark isn't so bad. My M&P would not make it to that mark without at least 2 malfunctions before I got the improved Apex ejector.

Tamara
07-10-2012, 11:42 AM
"Glock Perfection" was the Gen 1 G17 9mm.

Well, except for that whole reca... er, "voluntary upgrade (http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/upgrade-faq.html)" thing...

I, too, miss the past. Things were more like they used to be back then. ;)

BLR
07-10-2012, 11:57 AM
It's interesting to compare this thread with the "I don't get the 1911 thread."

The take away points being:
- You cannot, regardless of platform, take any gun, with any number of rounds through it as being guaranteed to work every time.
- The more you learn the platform, the more you learn how it should "feel." And diagnosing problems becomes easier.
- There is no "perfection."
- Maybe the USMC "Cleaning for the sake of cleaning" is mistakenly maligned. Maybe, aside from blind cleaning, it should be cleaning and inspecting. Inspecting for abnormal wear, cracks, corrosion, etc.
- Maybe it isn't a bad idea to become your own armorer for your chosen platform.

And most importantly, after 1911s, Sigs are the best!!! ;)

Jared
07-10-2012, 12:11 PM
To me, the interesting thing about this thread and every other one like it is that even SME's don't agree completely on which model is the "one" to trust out of the box. With Todd weighing in that even the P30 isn't necessarily perfect, and watching posters whose opinions I respect go back and forth about M&P's and Glock's, it's hard to feel confident that you can trust anything blindly out of the box. Which is why I've always liked the advice to test anything, pistol or rifle, from any manufacturer, before you stake your life on it. Between the three guns listed in this threads title, I own none, and shoot a Beretta 92FS, which is not perfect, and I'm aware of that. A year or so ago, I was looking to transition, but there's so many threads like this one out there on the 'net that I decided that nothing was ever gonna be perfect, and I liked what I had. I decided then to stay put until at least some of this was resolved.

If Apex winds up fixing the M&P and the Glock, it seems to me that either company would be a fool not to hire the man, but I'd be willing to bet that both companies know how to fix, they are either unwilling or foot dragging.

JHC
07-10-2012, 12:25 PM
+1 Jared.

Holy smokes, Randy Lee is estimating . . . estimating the the challenge of machining those new Glock extractors could put them in the $60 range. FfffUOUHCH!

GOP
07-10-2012, 12:28 PM
I really, REALLY doubt that new production M&P's are averaging 8" groups at 25m. Most people are getting 2-3" groups at 25m.

I'm testing an M&P9 Pro today that I bought yesterday, it has the 2012 production barrel. I'd bet that I'll get groups SHO at 25m better than 8" standing, and we can put a lot of this "M&P's are inaccurate out of the box" stuff to bed. Most of the testing will probably be done at 15m w/cheap 115gr bullets, because 2 handed shooting is out because I crushed my weak hand wrist and it is in a cast.

Tamara
07-10-2012, 01:05 PM
I'd bet that I'll get groups SHO at 25m better than 8" standing, and we can put a lot of this "M&P's are inaccurate out of the box" stuff to bed.

Even if your gun is fine and is a truly representative example of what's coming off the line right now*, and Smith really has fixed the problem, that doesn't magically un-fudge all the ones already in the wild suffering from the issue.

And I am saying this as a largely satisfied M&P 9 owner: Saying "Brand X made some guns with issues and was close-mouthed about admitting it because that's how companies (especially companies in high-liability industries) are," is not the same as saying "Brand X sucks and everybody who bought a Brand X instead of a Brand Y is an ignorant poopiehead." ;)

(Of course, you'd never know that from reading guncarcomputerbicyclecamerawhatever forums on the internet. :o )

*...and I truly hope it is. I want to believe.

Savage Hands
07-10-2012, 01:26 PM
I really, REALLY doubt that new production M&P's are averaging 8" groups at 25m. Most people are getting 2-3" groups at 25m.

I'm testing an M&P9 Pro today that I bought yesterday, it has the 2012 production barrel. I'd bet that I'll get groups SHO at 25m better than 8" standing, and we can put a lot of this "M&P's are inaccurate out of the box" stuff to bed. Most of the testing will probably be done at 15m w/cheap 115gr bullets, because 2 handed shooting is out because I crushed my weak hand wrist and it is in a cast.


Check this out:
http://10-8performance.blogspot.com/2012/06/s-m-barrels.html

Tamara
07-10-2012, 02:50 PM
Check this out:
That link made me tentatively very happy. :)

JonInWA
07-10-2012, 04:20 PM
"Glock Perfection" was the Gen 1 G17 9mm. Seems like every secondor third "improvement" made since then has moved away from that benchmark.:(

That assertation simply does not juxtapose with my experiences and knowledge. There have been numerous announced and unannounced/incrimental changes implimented by Glock, both from generation to generation, and within specific generations. Some were due to operational issues experienced, others were engineering and/or manufacturing changes. In a non-fingergroove model, for example, I would MUCH rather have a late second-generation Glock as opposed to any first generation one, and overall I think that the pre-MIM/dip extractor Gen 3 9mm guns (particularly the G17 and G19) represent the apogee of Glock fit, parts improvement, reliability and accuracy.

My general rule of thumb, at least prior to the dip/MIM extractor in the Gen 3 guns, and the Gen4 introduction (at least initially) is the later the production gun within a generation, the better the gun (relatively speaking), as it should incorporate any announced and unannounced running changes/improvements.

In the Gen4 lineup, the G21 seems to be performing flawlessly to date, and I think represents a valid improvement over previous G21s-although I've personally felt no compelling need to divest myself of my Gen 3 G21.

Best, Jon

GOP
07-10-2012, 04:31 PM
Hey, just tested this M&P9 Pro out and within 100 rounds/40m of shooting, I have gotten several 2.5" groups at 15m SHO standing with cheap practice ammo. I'll admit it took me about 75 rounds to get used to the fiber optic sight and trigger, but I'm impressed so far.

I hope to be able to ring an 8" plate SHO standing on command tomorrow, and be grouping at 4" or so by the end of the week or early next week at that distance.

k831
07-10-2012, 04:33 PM
The Apex Barsto barrel has been about three months away for the last year. Given their Glock extractor is about out, that Apex is a relatively small operation, and how big the Glock potential market is, one couldn't blame Apex if their focus lately has been on the Glock extractor. It is interesting that the two major platforms -- Glock with their reliability issue and the M&P with their accuracy issue, could both be rescued by one Randy Lee.

Storm Lake barrels are set to be out soon too, correct? I know those that have tried them in testing have reported huge accuracy improvements.

GJM
07-10-2012, 05:23 PM
I really, REALLY doubt that new production M&P's are averaging 8" groups at 25m. Most people are getting 2-3" groups at 25m.

I'm testing an M&P9 Pro today that I bought yesterday, it has the 2012 production barrel. I'd bet that I'll get groups SHO at 25m better than 8" standing, and we can put a lot of this "M&P's are inaccurate out of the box" stuff to bed. Most of the testing will probably be done at 15m w/cheap 115gr bullets, because 2 handed shooting is out because I crushed my weak hand wrist and it is in a cast.

What is the basis for your statement "most people are getting 2-3 inch groups at 25m?"

GOP
07-10-2012, 05:53 PM
My basis is from reading reviews in this thread, seeing guys like 10-8 review it, and my experience with both of mine I've owned (I have 3rd coming soon too from a member here, I'm assuming it also has a 2012 barrel). I remember not too long ago GJM you loved yours and said Bill Rogers recommended the M&Ps.

GJM
07-10-2012, 06:03 PM
Absolutely love the ergos as does Bill Rogers. Absolutely despise the accuracy on my sample of >10 9mm M&P pistols at 25 yards.

If you read carefully what Hilton Yam said, he likes the M&P despite the load sensitivity his M&P pistols exhibit. If accuracy was the main criteria, I can't imagine any knowledgable shooter picking the M&P 9.

GOP
07-10-2012, 07:38 PM
Absolutely love the ergos as does Bill Rogers. Absolutely despise the accuracy on my sample of >10 9mm M&P pistols at 25 yards.

If you read carefully what Hilton Yam said, he likes the M&P despite the load sensitivity his M&P pistols exhibit. If accuracy was the main criteria, I can't imagine any knowledgable shooter picking the M&P 9.

The ergos and aftermarket support is what has sold me on this series of pistols. The PPQ is still the best 9mm on the market IMO when it comes to out of the box performance, but stock sights and holsters made by "Somedoodinhisgarage" gets old after a while.

If need be, I'll drop a aftermarket barrel in if parts degrade accuracy. The ergos are that good to me

gtmtnbiker98
07-10-2012, 08:16 PM
The ergos and aftermarket support is what has sold me on this series of pistols. The PPQ is still the best 9mm on the market IMO when it comes to out of the box performance, but stock sights and holsters made by "Somedoodinhisgarage" gets old after a while.

If need be, I'll drop a aftermarket barrel in if parts degrade accuracy. The ergos are that good to meComp-Tac is finally catching up with the PPQ and offer all of their IWB line. OWB is still in development, but at least a mainstream holster maker is supporting the 'Q.' Also, Kaluban Cloak is also making PPQ holsters. For leather, High Noon is offering their entire line for the PPQ. Occidental is also a leather holster maker supporting the 'Q'. So holsters are out there. I've been running a PPQ since December, no issues from mine. I agree, they are that good.

JodyH
07-10-2012, 08:27 PM
My wife's PPQ fits perfectly in every P2000 leather holster I own.
That's not saying a whole lot because P2000 holsters are pretty scarce, but they are somewhat more plentiful than PPQ specific holsters.

Tamara
07-10-2012, 08:42 PM
My wife's PPQ fits perfectly in every P2000 leather holster I own.
That's not saying a whole lot because P2000 holsters are pretty scarce, but they are somewhat more plentiful than PPQ specific holsters.

I was gonna say...

"No, it's cool, I found out the nearest Skoda dealership has parts for my SEAT!" :D

(FWIW, in a real pinch, the P226 is the universal holster, and the CZ-75 is the universal gun.)

GJM
07-10-2012, 08:58 PM
If need be, I'll drop a aftermarket barrel in if parts degrade accuracy. The ergos are that good to me

Hopefully that will soon be a viable option once Apex gets their barrels to market. The problem is, right now, dropping an available after market barrel into a M&P 9 appears to be no more likely to improve accuracy than randomly switching factory barrels or slides.

On the plus side, I have heard rumblings that some M&P 9's made in the last few months are shooting better, as in sub 5 inches at 25 yards, and best results are often with 147 grain ammo. You might try some 147 shooter and carry ammo in your new M&P pistols.

What is interesting is my M&P pistols were very individual, and seemed to show no obvious preference for 147 grain ammo, with Ranger 124+P or HST 124 +P, but not both loads, often being the carry load that would shoot. My single most accurate M&P 9, which had an RMR, shot Aguila 124 ball into about 2.5 inches at 25 yards, shot 124+P HST and Ranger poorly (6 inches +/-), but shot HST 147 3.5-4 inches as its best carry load. My take away is that if your M&P doesn't shoot at 25 yards, keep trying many different loads from 115 to 147 grains, both standard pressure and +P. Expect that each pistol is likely to be unique in preferences, and if you are OK with that, you will likely find a combo that works. My issue was trying to have two shooters plus a carry gun for me, and the same for my wife, became too big an ammo management hassle for me to deal with.

On the other positive news front, I also heard from an extremely connected individual, that very recent Gen 4 Glock 9's are now running reliably, and typically shooting 2 inch groups at 25 yards.

I sure do hope that improvements from Glock and S&W, are not just in special built pistols for LE/MIL.

burntorangefan
07-10-2012, 09:20 PM
I was gonna say...

"No, it's cool, I found out the nearest Skoda dealership has parts for my SEAT!" :D

(FWIW, in a real pinch, the P226 is the universal holster, and the CZ-75 is the universal gun.)

@ tamara inset frank the tank "you're crazy man. I like you."

He's got a fucking dart in his neck...:)

Spr1
07-10-2012, 09:35 PM
"On the other positive news front, I also heard from an extremely connected individual, that very recent Gen 4 Glock 9's are now running reliably, and typically shooting 2 inch groups at 25 yards."

I still find it mind boggling that Glock has spent years fixing something that used to work. Of course, I am still mad at Coke for New Coke and Coke Classic made with corn syrup.......

MikeyC
07-10-2012, 09:52 PM
"On the other positive news front, I also heard from an extremely connected individual, that very recent Gen 4 Glock 9's are now running reliably, and typically shooting 2 inch groups at 25 yards."

I still find it mind boggling that Glock has spent years fixing something that used to work. Of course, I am still mad at Coke for New Coke and Coke Classic made with corn syrup.......

I'm thinking the Gen4 Glocks are as well recieved as Crystal Pepsi, but same idea

JohnN
07-10-2012, 11:19 PM
Storm Lake barrels are set to be out soon too, correct? I know those that have tried them in testing have reported huge accuracy improvements.

A couple of years ago I stuck a Storm Lake barrel in a full size M&P and didn't find any appreciable increase in accuracy. If Storm Lake offers a gunsmith fitted barrel that may solve the issue.

k831
07-10-2012, 11:24 PM
A couple of years ago I stuck a Storm Lake barrel in a full size M&P and didn't find any appreciable increase in accuracy. If Storm Lake offers a gunsmith fitted barrel that may solve the issue.

My understanding is that they are in fact fitted barrels.

This thread is depressing (albeit informative). What's a guy or gal shopping for a platform supposed to do?

GJM
07-10-2012, 11:33 PM
I think you are both right. There are drop in barrels, that have not significantly changed accuracy. There is also a fitted Storm Lake barrel project, by Grant at G&R, that is in the development stage, with some promising preliminary results reported. Last I heard from Grant, they were still a month or two off from having barrels to fit for the 9 full size.

GOP
07-11-2012, 12:03 AM
Hopefully that will soon be a viable option once Apex gets their barrels to market. The problem is, right now, dropping an available after market barrel into a M&P 9 appears to be no more likely to improve accuracy than randomly switching factory barrels or slides.

On the plus side, I have heard rumblings that some M&P 9's made in the last few months are shooting better, as in sub 5 inches at 25 yards, and best results are often with 147 grain ammo. You might try some 147 shooter and carry ammo in your new M&P pistols.

What is interesting is my M&P pistols were very individual, and seemed to show no obvious preference for 147 grain ammo, with Ranger 124+P or HST 124 +P, but not both loads, often being the carry load that would shoot. My single most accurate M&P 9, which had an RMR, shot Aguila 124 ball into about 2.5 inches at 25 yards, shot 124+P HST and Ranger poorly (6 inches +/-), but shot HST 147 3.5-4 inches as its best carry load. My take away is that if your M&P doesn't shoot at 25 yards, keep trying many different loads from 115 to 147 grains, both standard pressure and +P. Expect that each pistol is likely to be unique in preferences, and if you are OK with that, you will likely find a combo that works. My issue was trying to have two shooters plus a carry gun for me, and the same for my wife, became too big an ammo management hassle for me to deal with.

On the other positive news front, I also heard from an extremely connected individual, that very recent Gen 4 Glock 9's are now running reliably, and typically shooting 2 inch groups at 25 yards.

I sure do hope that improvements from Glock and S&W, are not just in special built pistols for LE/MIL.

Thanks for the advice! I'm going to go to LGS tomorrow and pick up loads from 115 to 147 and see what it likes best, and I'll probably continue to use 15m as the testing distance since I am 1 handed. 15m 1 handed is pretty close to 25m free style in my experience. The CCI Blazer (115) I used worked well giving me a 2.5-3 inch group, but it wasn't as consistent as I'd have liked.

GJM
07-11-2012, 12:23 AM
If your goal is to assess 25 yard accuracy and point of impact shift between loads, I don't think 15 yards cuts it. When I started noticing problems in both accuracy and POI shift with the M&P was on the head box at 25 yards, and the body at 50 yards. I appreciate the difficulty of being one handed for a while, but I think I would stockpile that variety of ammo for when you are healed, or you can have a trusted buddy shoot at 25 yards. For example, these are photos of some loads with my FS 9/RMR:

1) Aguila 124 ball at 25 yards.

888


2) HST 124+P or Ranger 124+P (can't remember for sure) thru the same pistol at 25 yards:

889

3) HST 147 at 25 yards (note decent accuracy, but POI shift)

890

DocGKR
07-11-2012, 02:51 AM
You need to shoot at 25 yds...

EJO
07-11-2012, 04:35 AM
On the other positive news front, I also heard from an extremely connected individual, that very recent Gen 4 Glock 9's are now running reliably, and typically shooting 2 inch groups at 25 yards.

I sure do hope that improvements from Glock and S&W, are not just in special built pistols for LE/MIL.

GJM, what in your opinion is contributing to the excellent accuracy these newer Glock 9mm are exhibiting?

Thanks




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Limey-
07-11-2012, 05:17 AM
Interesting thread. My earlier Gen4 19 was atrocious could barely get through a mag without a failure of one description or another. I have a later Gen4 17 that has only 3500 rounds through it but not one failure. The Gen 4 17 is noticably more accurate than my much shot Gen 3 at 25 and 50 yards.

The P30 is a great gun but complex,expensive as a duty gun and the aftermarket sucks. The M&P has a decent aftermarket but the accuracy and trigger are poor
without putting dollars into the gun. None of them are perfect. I have owned them all in multiples except the 'boutique brands'. They all work relatively well and few end users will actually ever exceed the capabilitys of the big platforms (Glock,Sig,HK,Beretta,S&W).

The reality is that most buyers are putting low volume rounds, at distances less than 15 yards, on a one way, square range, a couple of times a year. LE contracts are often determined for political and cost perameters that outweigh functionality. The manufacturers are building/cost controlling to that lowest common denominator.

LSP972
07-11-2012, 10:14 AM
especially since the Gadget is on the horizon.



Okay, I give up.

What is this Gadget of which you speak?

.

JDM
07-11-2012, 10:19 AM
Okay, I give up.

What is this Gadget of which you speak?

.

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?712-The-Gadget-REVEALED

DocGKR
07-11-2012, 10:53 AM
Limey, I far prefer the M&P trigger (esp w/Apex Duty Kit) to the Glock, HK, Sig, or Beretta...

Corlissimo
07-11-2012, 10:54 AM
This thread is depressing (albeit informative). What's a guy or gal shopping for a platform supposed to do?

Spend the money up front and buy the P30 or P30L. The main limiting factor with those, related to accuracy that is, are the stock sights, but at least the P30's seem to have avoided most of the issues plaguing the other guys... so far.

--
Sent from my personal Droid. Please excuse any typos, my Droid's kinda stupid. (_)

GOP
07-11-2012, 11:23 AM
You need to shoot at 25 yds...

Yeah, dumb idea on my part I guess. I have no doubt I can get some 8" groups at 25m SHO, but it definitely wouldn't be scientific because of the obvious difficulty (for me) with one hand.

So you guys don't like the drop in barrels? Interesting, as people at places like Brian Enos love theirs. I much prefer the M&P trigger to the other options, MINUS the PPQ of course.

ToddG
07-11-2012, 11:35 AM
Yeah, dumb idea on my part I guess. I have no doubt I can get some 8" groups at 25m SHO, but it definitely wouldn't be scientific because of the obvious difficulty (for me) with one hand.

What it really boils down to is your ability (generic "you" not GOP). Unless you turn in your best accuracy by shooting SHO at 25, then you're adding noise to the data. That's exactly why folks recommend group shooting to determine gun accuracy. The idea is to take as much of the shooter's skill out of the equation as possible. I even try to use a laser for aiming (if available) when testing a gun's accuracy.

If you're working on improving skill, then obviously you don't do the same thing.


So you guys don't like the drop in barrels? Interesting, as people at places like Brian Enos love theirs.

I think it's more a matter of heartburn over needing to replace the barrel.

You also run into a simple reality that -- at least as far as combat-oriented shooting is concerned -- you're not going to find aftermarket barrels with the same track record or hostile testing that the factory products have endured. I'm not saying aftermarket barrels are bad. I carried a gun with a fitted Bar-Sto myself years ago. But the perceived risk in terms of reliability and/or durability weigh against the idea. I certainly have seen a higher percentage of aftermarket barreled guns have reliability issues in class than factory barreled guns, but admittedly the number is small enough that the data is far from conclusive.

Finally, the vast majority of people who drop special barrels in their guns lack the skill to get much benefit from the change. I had a student once who couldn't break 30 on Dot Torture at 3yds... but he had a very nice custom barrel in his Glock. :cool:

GOP
07-11-2012, 11:56 AM
Todd, thanks for the response! I definitely agree, i think until my arm heals doing much actual testing is useless because I can't really get a true idea of the GUNS ability. Plus, I'm still trying to master the M&P's trigger, which is somewhat different than the PPQ's. Ive also never shot a POA/POI fiber optic until now, so that is different for me as well.

Since I have a M&P9c coming for carry and I'm planning to compete strictly with the M&P Pro (hoping to get everything set up so I can win my division at the MS IDPA State Championship in October ;)), I may add a KKM barrel for peace of mind. I'm hoping to pass Dot Torture at 10m by the end of the year, so maybe I'll be at the level to notice a little difference in the barrels.

I really find pistols to be a hilarious subject. The pistols with the best aftermarket support and largest market (Glock and M&P's) struggle with various issues, the best performing out of the box pistol has little aftermarket support (the PPQ), and the best pistol from a quality control stand point (HK P30) has limited aftermarket support and the trigger can be tricky for some. Others, such as the Caracal, will always have crappy sights, and have far too little data to be considered IMO. It is all a trade off.

David Armstrong
07-11-2012, 12:08 PM
My understanding is that they are in fact fitted barrels.

This thread is depressing (albeit informative). What's a guy or gal shopping for a platform supposed to do?
Buy one. Any one, it really doesn't matter that much. Stick with it. Learn it well. Identify potential problems and reduce the likelihood of them occurring. Stick with it. Learn it better. Shoot it a lot. Stick with it.

Tamara
07-11-2012, 12:12 PM
Yeah, dumb idea on my part I guess. I have no doubt I can get some 8" groups at 25m SHO, but it definitely wouldn't be scientific because of the obvious difficulty (for me) with one hand.

It wouldn't be very scientific shooting offhand, anyway.

I don't think results off a bench would differ much between one- and two-handed shooting. Or if you really wanted to find out what the gun can do, take the meat out of the picture altogether and borrow a Ransom Rest.

If these sound like the bitter ramblings of someone whose 4/10 production M&P 9 just scattered rounds all over a couple 8+" 'groups' off a rest at 25 yards thirty minutes ago (and who then shot 15 rounds from a G19 off the same rest into 3.5",) well, that's because they are. :(

GOP
07-11-2012, 12:37 PM
It wouldn't be very scientific shooting offhand, anyway.

I don't think results off a bench would differ much between one- and two-handed shooting. Or if you really wanted to find out what the gun can do, take the meat out of the picture altogether and borrow a Ransom Rest.

If these sound like the bitter ramblings of someone whose 4/10 production M&P 9 just scattered rounds all over a couple 8+" 'groups' off a rest at 25 yards thirty minutes ago (and who then shot 15 rounds from a G19 off the same rest into 3.5",) well, that's because they are. :(

Wow, S&W REALLY took an excellent design and found a way to make it suck at first. I really do feel that I can get some promising results out of the new 2012 barrel, but the older barrels were horrible. I was very happy with my 2.5" group at 15m yesterday SHO Standing, but now I'm worried that my groups may spread hugely in that last 10m :D

Vjornaxx
07-11-2012, 01:16 PM
Someone had previously linked to Hilton Yam's informal M&P barrel test, but I have seen little response to it. His data set might not be as robust, but the informal results certainly warrant a closer look at 2012 production M&Ps given that the barrels are different.

http://10-8performance.blogspot.com/2012/06/s-m-barrels.html?m=1

DocGKR
07-11-2012, 02:14 PM
Tamara--I hope you have sent the M&P9 right back to S&W and told them to make it right or give you a new pistol.

GJM
07-11-2012, 02:22 PM
In the past, when YVK, Orion, SteveB and I, to name PF members that immediately come to mind, sent back pistols with accuracy problems, S&W either told us that our pistols met "their spec" or changed barrel and slides, with no appreciable change in the accuracy of the pistol we got back. I think this was suggestive that they were unable to fix the pistols with what parts they had available.

If, S&W has changed the barrels, as suggested in the Hilton Yam piece, S&W might now be in a position to fix our inaccurate pistols. Has anyone recently sent a M&P back to S&W, and gotten it back with a new barrel, and seen an improvement in accuracy?

JV_
07-11-2012, 02:25 PM
In the past, when YVK, Orion, SteveB and I, to name PF members that immediately come to mind, sent back pistols with accuracy problems, S&W either told us that our pistols met "their spec" or changed barrel and slides, with no appreciable change in the accuracy of the pistol we got back. I think this was suggestive that they were unable to fix the pistols with what parts they had available.I sent mine back, they shot it with WWB, and noted it was fine - then sent it back. I sold the gun.

GOP
07-11-2012, 03:22 PM
Shot mine again SHO, got a 2" group standing at 15m w/115g CCI Blazer. I think this one is going to be good to go.

Didn't try 25m, don't have a rest and the gun would outshoot me.

BLR
07-11-2012, 03:24 PM
It wouldn't be very scientific shooting offhand, anyway.

I don't think results off a bench would differ much between one- and two-handed shooting. Or if you really wanted to find out what the gun can do, take the meat out of the picture altogether and borrow a Ransom Rest.

If these sound like the bitter ramblings of someone whose 4/10 production M&P 9 just scattered rounds all over a couple 8+" 'groups' off a rest at 25 yards thirty minutes ago (and who then shot 15 rounds from a G19 off the same rest into 3.5",) well, that's because they are. :(

8" @ 25yrds would leave me feeling dirty and used.

I'd dump that polymer pistol, call the experience an experiment, and go back to my Pro. Life is too short for inaccurate pistols.

JHC
07-11-2012, 04:18 PM
8" @ 25yrds would leave me feeling dirty and used.

I'd dump that polymer pistol, call the experience an experiment, and go back to my Pro. Life is too short for inaccurate pistols.

Yes it is. M&P users struggling with Customer Service (best in the industry dontcha know) on this issue often seem to read "meets specs" on the return packing slip. It's been widely reported on M4C that some of them have pinned down that spec is like 2 or 3" at 15 yds. (? GJM will recall exactly). Geometry being the cold bitch she is will make that ugly at 25 yards.

Spring '10 about 400 rds into a 2400 round test drive of a M&P Pro 9 and I was in teenage love with that gun and contemplating a FS for daily CCW before I shot it for 25 yd groups. :mad:

GOP
07-11-2012, 04:48 PM
Does anyone know when the fitted barrel will be available from Apex? Like a realistic timeline?

MEH
07-11-2012, 04:51 PM
Does anyone know when the fitted barrel will be available from Apex? Like a realistic timeline?

I finally gave up waiting for a solution soooo that means it'll be here soon.

GJM
07-11-2012, 05:11 PM
Does anyone know when the fitted barrel will be available from Apex? Like a realistic timeline?

As I sad earlier in this thread, which is now probably getting so long we are inevitably repeating things said previously, the Apex Barsto barrel has been "three months off" for the last two years. I am sure Randy Lee is frustrated by the delay, but nothing in firearms seems to happen sooner than expected.

Savage Hands
07-11-2012, 05:14 PM
Does anyone know when the fitted barrel will be available from Apex? Like a realistic timeline?

The best advice is to call them directly.

orionz06
07-11-2012, 05:15 PM
As I sad earlier in this thread, which is now probably getting so long we are inevitably repeating things said previously, the Apex Barsto barrel has been "three months off" for the last two years. I am sure Randy Lee is frustrated by the delay, but nothing in firearms seems to happen sooner than expected.

G17's have never been hard to find this whole time.

GOP
07-11-2012, 05:19 PM
As I sad earlier in this thread, which is now probably getting so long we are inevitably repeating things said previously, the Apex Barsto barrel has been "three months off" for the last two years. I am sure Randy Lee is frustrated by the delay, but nothing in firearms seems to happen sooner than expected.

Well, I'm in the M&P crowd now so I guess I'll wait it out. I'll call and/or email Apex soon and post what they tell me about the barrel.

JHC
07-11-2012, 05:23 PM
Does anyone know when the fitted barrel will be available from Apex? Like a realistic timeline?

G&R Tactical fitted barrel sounds much closer and Grant has put up 1" groups to demo prototypes. At a lower price.

Tamara
07-11-2012, 07:19 PM
8" @ 25yrds would leave me feeling dirty and used.

I'd dump that polymer pistol, call the experience an experiment, and go back to my Pro. Life is too short for inaccurate pistols.

Group size at 25 yds ranks about 73rd on "Most Important Characteristics In A Carry Gun" for me.

I'll... well, this'll be a long post. More later.

BLR
07-11-2012, 07:42 PM
Group size at 25 yds ranks about 73rd on "Most Important Characteristics In A Carry Gun" for me.

I'll... well, this'll be a long post. More later.

Sure, group size for the sake of group size might not be tippy top of most peoples lists. I get it.

However, let me offer another perspective. Accuracy is an indicator, as in (almost) necessary, but not sufficient for a high quality firearm. It is an indication of the care and quality. For example, if I had a pistol that produced 8" groups at 25yrds, I would be immediately suspect of the entire gun, and the materials used to make it.

Notice that the early/prime Kimbers, Berettas, Sigs, HKs, and the quality 1911s were all wonderfully accurate? They were also the finest examples produced by their respective shops. Accuracy implies the manufacturer spent the time to center the crown, rifle the barrel correction, concentrically cut the chamber, properly timed the barrel, and so on.

While the above argument is subject to exceptions, it is fairly strong.

At least that is the argument I use to justify my guns...

GJM
07-11-2012, 07:50 PM
On a carry gun, I would rate reliability first, followed by accuracy. On a practice gun, I would rate accuracy before reliability.

The reason I rate accuracy so highly on a practice gun, is I need accuracy to know what the results of my sight alignment and trigger press are, and if my practice pistol is spraying shots into 8 inches at 25 yards, I can't tell what is me and what is the pistol. Since my practice and carry pistols are the same platform, that necessitates my carry gun be reliable and accurate.

DanH
07-11-2012, 08:41 PM
I don't think Tam is downplaying accuracy in general so much as 25 yard accuracy. Personally, I think that 7, 10 and 15 yard accuracy are far more important than 25 yard accuracy. I can easily see how 25 yard accuracy would be far down on a list behind dependability, durability, and other factors, such as shorter range accuracy

Tamara
07-11-2012, 09:02 PM
At least that is the argument I use to justify my guns...

And, you know, you rock on with that.

25yd accuracy is only one dimension, and a minor one at that, of all the factors that make a gun worthy of busting a cap in self-defense.

Like I said, this deserves more than a one sentence response, and I'm in and out of the office this afternoon...

Seriously, I'm formulating an actual reply! :o

GJM
07-11-2012, 09:10 PM
I don't think Tam is downplaying accuracy in general so much as 25 yard accuracy. Personally, I think that 7, 10 and 15 yard accuracy are far more important than 25 yard accuracy. I can easily see how 25 yard accuracy would be far down on a list behind dependability, durability, and other factors, such as shorter range accuracy

7 yard accuracy is an oxymoron.

BLR
07-11-2012, 09:38 PM
And, you know, you rock on with that.

25yd accuracy is only one dimension, and a minor one at that, of all the factors that make a gun worthy of busting a cap in self-defense.

Like I said, this deserves more than a one sentence response, and I'm in and out of the office this afternoon...

Seriously, I'm formulating an actual reply! :o

I'm waiting with bated breath. ;)

Food for thought on your response: statistically, are you more likely to need to take a shot at 25 yards, or need that backup pistol/spare mag? Meaning if you have a MRBF of, say, 2000 rounds, you'd have to have 1 out of 2000 gunfights would take place over 25yrds. Or similarly, how many shots take place next to an innocent bystander?

I'm not playing advocate of "match accuracy." I'm just throwing a wrench in the gears.

orionz06
07-11-2012, 09:41 PM
Tom Givens presented a few cases that made me really wish I knew where my gun would hit at 25 yards. Not sure how well 8" does it for me when I can shoot better with a different gun.

BWT
07-11-2012, 10:16 PM
I don't think anyone should be discouraged by the issues with guns.

I think the internet has just brought this to the main stream. Apparently, glocks with magazines inserted in them in the early 1990's when thrown, fired. I just think this information was prevalent because there was nowhere to talk.

I really think if your gun has a malfunction every 3,000 or so rounds... you're in good shape. My Glock hasn't had a single stoppage or malfunction with any shooter or any ammo, and that's been in 900-ish rounds, and probably if I had to guess around 1,000-1,500 maybe 2k dry fires. Sure, it doesn't eject exactly like I want it to, but honestly... Big whoop. I can fire a 33 round magazine as fast as I'm able, and it's fed through at least two that way. I've shot probably 5-6 magazines worth both SHO and WHO only, and I've had nothing, and I've had some slight Front sight post wiggle, that I'm keeping an eye on.

But, at this point, my Arsenal AK-47, and my $1,000 1911 had to go back to the factory for repairs. My Arsenal never fired a shot, my 1911 lost part of the hammer.

I can't say I'm upset, honestly, about erratic ejection and an extremely thin front sight post working itself loose. My Dad's M&P Compact 9, about a week and a half ago, front sight fell OFF. O-F-F. OFF! It will not sit in the dovetail correctly. I haven't had that issue. Worst part is, I recommended the darn thing!

ETA: If I threw a 10 rounder in my 1911 in would jam. I told my Father that, who has the exact same model 1911, he sad it wouldn't jam... and I'm really sorry to say, that it jammed on him twice in the space of 50 rounds.

That's absolute Bull Crap.

ETA 2: It's the problem of the Chip McCormick 10 round Power mags, the bullets are pulled forward as the bullet above it is chambered and they then do a nose dive in the feed ramp and the magazine has to be pulled from the gun. That's 2 rounds more than normal, meanwhile, Glock factory 33 round magazine, blazing through without issue.

GOP
07-11-2012, 10:37 PM
7 and 10 yard accuracy, even on 3x5's, even with a crappy gun is super easy and can be done at lightning speed. All you need is a straight barrel and a trigger. Unless you are shooting 1" dots 2 handed or 2" dots at warp speed or SHO/WHO, then 7 yard accuracy is in fact an oxymoron.

JHC, thanks a lot for telling me about G&R Tactical. I'm going to call them tomorrow as well to get an idea when they plan to be ready. I'm also going to call KKM and see if they can offer any hard proof that their barrels improve accuracy and if they offer any guarantees that they improve accuracy (a long shot I know :)). I'll post everything here. Any other leads on fitted M&P barrels?

Ed L
07-11-2012, 11:04 PM
8" @ 25yrds would leave me feeling dirty and used.

I'd dump that polymer pistol, call the experience an experiment, and go back to my Pro. Life is too short for inaccurate pistols.

Life can be shorter with an unreliable pistol.

You previously mentioned Kimber in this thread. Well, I bought a Kimber Warrior in 2006 that was the most accurate handgun I had ever owned up until that time. It was also one of the most unreliable, even after 3 trips to two different well-known gunsmiths. It was mainly problems with failures to feed and premature lockbacks with the mag still in the gun.

The final straw was after I got home from what I thought was a successful problem free range session. Time to clean it. So I dropped the mag, then tried to disengage the safety as a first step to being able to unload the round from the chamber.

The safety would not disengage.

It seems that the ambi safety separated a bit within the gun, just enough to make in not disengage.

I had been carrying the gun home from the range loaded as a primary handgun.

This was a problem that the gun had never experienced before.

I will take 8" at 25 yards and reliability over that Kimber every time.

Anyway, I have strayed from the topic of the thread.

fuse
07-12-2012, 12:29 AM
I finally gave up waiting for a solution soooo that means it'll be here soon.

I hear roflcopters

Sorry bro

BLR
07-12-2012, 07:21 AM
Life can be shorter with an unreliable pistol.

You previously mentioned Kimber in this thread. Well, I bought a Kimber Warrior in 2006 that was the most accurate handgun I had ever owned up until that time. It was also one of the most unreliable, even after 3 trips to two different well-known gunsmiths. It was mainly problems with failures to feed and premature lockbacks with the mag still in the gun.

The final straw was after I got home from what I thought was a successful problem free range session. Time to clean it. So I dropped the mag, then tried to disengage the safety as a first step to being able to unload the round from the chamber.

The safety would not disengage.

It seems that the ambi safety separated a bit within the gun, just enough to make in not disengage.

I had been carrying the gun home from the range loaded as a primary handgun.

This was a problem that the gun had never experienced before.

I will take 8" at 25 yards and reliability over that Kimber every time.

Anyway, I have strayed from the topic of the thread.

If you actually read my posts in this thread you will see that I do not mention Kimber anywhere here. I threw my lot in with Sig.

If you take the time to actually read and digest my post here, you will see that I say accuracy can be a litmus for quality. I even said there are exceptions to the rule. However, you seem to be incorrectly assuming that I hold accuracy paramount. I didn't think what I wrote was all that obtuse, but let me state it again: accuracy is an indicator of quality. It indicates the manufacturer spent the time and money to ensure design geometries were adhered to during production. Which, while not without exception, implies in spec parts were used throughout. An inaccurate gun tells me that, for example, the crown was cut off center, or the chamber reamed off center, etc. Which would then imply the machines were not properly maintained and/or quality control isn't doing its job. I would then suspect poor materials, other parts out of spec or fitted incorrectly. That is a different argument than "I need a gun to shoot 1.5" groups at 25yrds with Golden Sabers out of a Ransom rest for me to carry it."

Taking a look at your post, a few things strike me. So your Kimber went to two "well known" gunsmiths, and still didn't work. Superficially, it would lend support for the "Kimber is junk camp". Which is fine. I have no interest in that discussion. However, using the "well known" descriptor implies these "gunsmiths" knew what they were doing. Yet neither could diagnose the problem, correctly. Much less fix it. So, in your mind, was the problem with the gun or the gunsmiths? Why not name the gunsmiths to give the post some credibility? What work did they do on them?

See my point?

Tamara
07-12-2012, 07:51 AM
An inaccurate gun tells me that, for example, the crown was cut off center, or the chamber reamed off center, etc. Which would then imply the machines were not properly maintained and/or quality control isn't doing its job. I would then suspect poor materials, other parts out of spec or fitted incorrectly.

The accuracy issue with M&P9s has nothing to do with anything being out of spec or off-center and everything to do with twist rates and barrel lug/locking block geometry.

If accuracy were my sole determinant for a carry gun, I wouldn't "dump that polymer pistol, call the experience an experiment, and go back to my Pro," because my Pro can't hold a candle to my Model of 1955 .45 Target (http://cosmolineandrust.blogspot.com/2007/08/sunday-smith-10.html) in the mechanical accuracy department, so I should obviously carry that one. ;)

Let's not forget that an 8" group at 25 yards means that the gun was just reduced to scattering bullets all over the A-Zone.

I love the custom 1911s I still have. I'll still occasionally pick up my bespoke CCA custom and dry-fire it a bit, but doing so mostly serves to remind me that that's a damn heavy gun that doesn't hold a lot of BBs and costs a bunch to practice with.

My decision right now is whether I get an IWB for the M&P/Lightguard setup, or just relegate it to bedside duty and continue CCWing the Glock.

BLR
07-12-2012, 08:31 AM
The accuracy issue with M&P9s has nothing to do with anything being out of spec or off-center and everything to do with twist rates and barrel lug/locking block geometry.

If accuracy were my sole determinant for a carry gun, I wouldn't "dump that polymer pistol, call the experience an experiment, and go back to my Pro," because my Pro can't hold a candle to my Model of 1955 .45 Target (http://cosmolineandrust.blogspot.com/2007/08/sunday-smith-10.html) in the mechanical accuracy department, so I should obviously carry that one. ;)

Let's not forget that an 8" group at 25 yards means that the gun was just reduced to scattering bullets all over the A-Zone.

I love the custom 1911s I still have. I'll still occasionally pick up my bespoke CCA custom and dry-fire it a bit, but doing so mostly serves to remind me that that's a damn heavy gun that doesn't hold a lot of BBs and costs a bunch to practice with.

My decision right now is whether I get an IWB for the M&P/Lightguard setup, or just relegate it to bedside duty and continue CCWing the Glock.

Sure, ok. So by design the M&P is an 8" gun? That's cool. So an inaccurate M&P would be, for example, a 12" gun. Which would be indicitive of problems with that gun. That is my point. An inaccurate P226 might be a 4" gun. An inaccurate Pro might be a 2" gun. And so on.

You guys seem to want me to be making the argument that accuracy is a "sole determinate," or at least a prominent factor in my "gun selection critera" argument. It is not. However, I'll claim responsibility to the misunderstanding as it is usually the spearks fault anyway.

As a side note - I hear you on the cost to practice with a 45. Ain't cheap squirting 230g of lead and copper out 500 times a week. So much so that so many people shoot the cheapest ammo they can find through their tight match chambers.....

ToddG
07-12-2012, 08:42 AM
Group size at 25 yds ranks about 73rd on "Most Important Characteristics In A Carry Gun" for me.

I'd have to disagree with that. My pistol's accuracy is a limit on what I can achieve. While my shooting may not always rise to that limit, I'd rather know the gun is capable of more rather than less.


I don't think Tam is downplaying accuracy in general so much as 25 yard accuracy. Personally, I think that 7, 10 and 15 yard accuracy are far more important than 25 yard accuracy.

Have to disagree with this, also. There's a reason why 25yd testing is the standard for a handgun. In terms of inconsistent lockup, a gun's accuracy at 7/10/15 will be consistent relative to its accuracy at 25yd. But it's around the 25yd mark that other issues, like inadequate stabilization of the bullet, start to get noticed. Shooting groups at 7yd doesn't tell me as much about the gun or myself as shooting groups at 25yd.

Also, and this may be getting a bit too picayune, but bullet diameter itself is a bigger factor at closer ranges. The bullet accounts for a greater percentage of the arc and as such a round that just clips the edge at 5yd would likely be a complete miss at 25yd even for a relatively sized target.


Food for thought on your response: statistically, are you more likely to need to take a shot at 25 yards, or need that backup pistol/spare mag? Meaning if you have a MRBF of, say, 2000 rounds, you'd have to have 1 out of 2000 gunfights would take place over 25yrds. Or similarly, how many shots take place next to an innocent bystander?

There are other circumstances when a backup gun might come in handy. I'd venture to guess that the most common use of a BUG in LE, for example, is when the primary has been taken by the BG.


The accuracy issue with M&P9s has nothing to do with anything being out of spec or off-center and everything to do with twist rates and barrel lug/locking block geometry.

As I understood blr, he was not saying that "accurate = good gun," but more along the lines that "inaccurate = bad gun." And while the inaccurate M&Ps may be "within spec" according to Smith, how many of us consider that good quality? Especially when it's luck of the draw... my M&P9 test gun back in '08 was laser accurate even after more than 60k rounds and a cracked slide.


Let's not forget that an 8" group at 25 yards means that the gun was just reduced to scattering bullets all over the A-Zone.


An IPSC A-zone is 6" wide so a gun that only holds 8" at 25yd cannot consistently hit the A under ideal conditions.
The gun's mechanical accuracy is just part of the equation but it is always a part. Assuming a perfectly zeroed gun, a pistol that shoots 4" groups at 25yd is already off as much as 2" from a perfect trigger press on a perfect sight picture. Add stress, speed, suboptimal environment... now the shooter is also adding to the error. But they're additive.

BLR
07-12-2012, 08:54 AM
There are other circumstances when a backup gun might come in handy. I'd venture to guess that the most common use of a BUG in LE, for example, is when the primary has been taken by the BG.


Good point, and one that I had not taken into account in my statement.

So let me rephrase my statement/question: How many carry a BUG/spare mags in preparation for the event of a malfunctioning gun? What is the probability of needing that? Now what is the probability of needing to accurately place a shot on a target at 25+ yards? Why prepare for one and not the other?

Jay Cunningham
07-12-2012, 09:03 AM
How many carry a BUG/spare mags in preparation for the event of a malfunctioning gun? What is the probability of needing that? Now what is the probability of needing to accurately place a shot on a target at 25+ yards? Why prepare for one and not the other?

Does it matter whether the mag breaks, or if the gun malfunctions, or if you expend all your ammo and you need to keep shooting? Either you have the alternate capability on your hip or you do not. It is cheap, simple insurance in the case of a spare magazine. It is expensive, more complicated insurance in the event of a BUG. However the BUG allows you to fix the gun grab problem, where a spare mag does not.

As far as probability? Well, they're both (fixing a gun and making a 25 yard shot on a dude) statistical outliers, but they're still on the bell curve. I say work at both but don't spend an inordinate amout of time on both.

Tamara
07-12-2012, 09:22 AM
I'd have to disagree with that. My pistol's accuracy is a limit on what I can achieve. While my shooting may not always rise to that limit, I'd rather know the gun is capable of more rather than less.

Well, "73rd" is a bit of an exaggeration, but obviously accuracy is not my primary determinant, because otherwise I'd still be carrying a custom 1911, but to me the ~2" difference in group size at 25 yards between the CCA gun and the G19 I'm currently carrying does not outweigh the other benefits of the Glock.

There's obviously a point at which accuracy becomes a factor in the decision-making cycle, though, which is where I'm at with the M&P. I mean, if it was the only gun I had, I'd just go 'head and carry it, aware of its limitations.

As it is, (like I indicated in my previous post,) I'm torn between trying to do something about the accuracy issue, perhaps by sending it back to Smith and seeing if they are responsive, or perhaps via an aftermarket barrel, or just sucking it up, switching to the Glock, and relegating the M&P to bedside duty. (It has a light and laser and in this house the distances are measured in feet and not yards, which obviates any long-range accuracy issues.)

ToddG
07-12-2012, 09:40 AM
Well, "73rd" is a bit of an exaggeration, but obviously accuracy is not my primary determinant, because otherwise I'd still be carrying a custom 1911, but to me the ~2" difference in group size at 25 yards between the CCA gun and the G19 I'm currently carrying does not outweigh the other benefits of the Glock.

Agree 100% that there are other factors worth considering and some weigh more heavily than accuracy.

Much like reliability, my take on accuracy is formed through experience with a number of different brands and models tested over many years with many different types of ammo. There are so many good guns that easily shoot sub-4" groups at 25 (and many that shoot closer to 2") that I'm hard pressed to accept worse accuracy than that without a very strong justification.

The Glock I've been carrying for the past sixteen months is averaging just under 2.5" groups at 25yd from a bench. Emotionally, I have a hard time accepting that since all of my other test guns routinely shot under two inches. But realistically that half inch difference isn't something I think about when I'm shooting or when I'm carrying.

GOP
07-12-2012, 11:41 AM
I woke up today with almost nothing to do, and read a bunch of various reviews and opinions all over the web about the KKM drop in barrels. Everyone, with the exception of a few people in this thread, reported group size cut in half with the KKM. A few people reported 2-3" groups at 50m! Apparently even Dave Sevigny has been recommending them to M&P owners as well. I will be buying one for peace of mind until the fitted barrels from G&R and Apex come out. It may not be necessary, but I have a big match coming up in October I have been training hard for and don't want to worry about any gear issues. I still wont be able to do much other than 15m groups until my arm heals, but when it does, I'll post a comparison from a rest.

Accuracy to me is a huge deal, and I'm still biased from reading Larry Vickers say that group size will double under stress in highly trained shooters. I'm not sure if that is even realistic (a lot of SOF shooters use 8" plates as the balance between speed/accuracy), but it has definitely effected my opinion.

BLR
07-12-2012, 11:57 AM
I woke up today with almost nothing to do, and read a bunch of various reviews and opinions all over the web about the KKM drop in barrels. Everyone, with the exception of a few people in this thread, reported group size cut in half with the KKM. A few people reported 2-3" groups at 50m! Apparently even Dave Sevigny has been recommending them to M&P owners as well. I will be buying one for peace of mind until the fitted barrels from G&R and Apex come out. It may not be necessary, but I have a big match coming up in October I have been training hard for and don't want to worry about any gear issues. I still wont be able to do much other than 15m groups until my arm heals, but when it does, I'll post a comparison from a rest.

Accuracy to me is a huge deal, and I'm still biased from reading Larry Vickers say that group size will double under stress in highly trained shooters. I'm not sure if that is even realistic (a lot of SOF shooters use 8" plates as the balance between speed/accuracy), but it has definitely effected my opinion.

Group size doubling? Yeah, I'll buy that. I remember the first real match I shot, reviewing/scoring the targets. I'd have sworn they were all A's. Lots and lots of C's. Things get shaky and jittery under stress.

GOP
07-12-2012, 12:05 PM
Group size doubling? Yeah, I'll buy that. I remember the first real match I shot, reviewing/scoring the targets. I'd have sworn they were all A's. Lots and lots of C's. Things get shaky and jittery under stress.

I'm not really referring to match stress, as I have actually found that I shoot very similar in a match vs. what I do on the range (I've been the most accurate shooter in 1 club match and in my division at a major match of the 4 matches I've competed in this year). I'm more referring to the stress of a gun fight, which I obviously have no experience with.

GJM
07-12-2012, 12:06 PM
GOP, I am perplexed. As I understand it, your PPQ has been accurate, reliable and you have been able to shoot sub 4 second FASTests and 1.8 Bill drills on demand with it. Presumably, you have holsters and magazines for it.

Now you are in the M&P camp when you don't even have a pistol that you have confirmed is accurate at 25 yards, and the experience of folks here on PF tells you that getting an accurate M&P is statistically less likely than with a Glock, HK or SIG -- which means it may take some time to get an accurate M&P thru a custom barrel or by buying multiple pistols.

What is with the big rush to switch platforms?

Ed L
07-12-2012, 12:10 PM
If you actually read my posts in this thread you will see that I do not mention Kimber anywhere here. I threw my lot in with Sig.

You're right. It was another thread where you posted in favor of Kimber. I misremembered reading it in this thread. Here is what you wrote in the other thread:


:rolleyes:

Kimber isn't the largest 1911 manufacturer out there because they can't put together a pistol right.


If you take the time to actually read and digest my post here, you will see that I say accuracy can be a litmus for quality. I even said there are exceptions to the rule. However, you seem to be incorrectly assuming that I hold accuracy paramount. I didn't think what I wrote was all that obtuse, but let me state it again: accuracy is an indicator of quality. It indicates the manufacturer spent the time and money to ensure design geometries were adhered to during production. Which, while not without exception, implies in spec parts were used throughout. An inaccurate gun tells me that, for example, the crown was cut off center, or the chamber reamed off center, etc. Which would then imply the machines were not properly maintained and/or quality control isn't doing its job. I would then suspect poor materials, other parts out of spec or fitted incorrectly. That is a different argument than "I need a gun to shoot 1.5" groups at 25yrds with Golden Sabers out of a Ransom rest for me to carry it."

The Kimber Warrior that I bought was very accurate, capable of firing 5 shots into 3" ay 25 yards, more of a limitation of my shooting skills at the time than the guns. However, the gun could barely get through a CMC powermag or Wilson 7 round mag or the stock Kimber Mag without either having a failure to feed or the slide lock back with rounds still in the magazine.


Taking a look at your post, a few things strike me. So your Kimber went to two "well known" gunsmiths, and still didn't work. Superficially, it would lend support for the "Kimber is junk camp". Which is fine. I have no interest in that discussion. However, using the "well known" descriptor implies these "gunsmiths" knew what they were doing. Yet neither could diagnose the problem, correctly. Much less fix it. So, in your mind, was the problem with the gun or the gunsmiths? Why not name the gunsmiths to give the post some credibility? What work did they do on them?

See my point?

I first sent it to Ed Vandenberg, citing the problems I was experiencing, and it came back functioning no better. I sent it back to him and then it came back without the premature lockbacks but still had feeding issues. I then sent it to Mike Lau of TX Brigade Armory who gave me back a gun that seemed to feed reliably but still had a rare issue. Then this guy named Larry Vickers did a little work on the extractor during a 1911 Operator class.

But even after this, the gun did other wierd things like dragging an empty case back into the magazine on one occasion, failing to pick up a new round from a magazine and close the slide on an empty chamber when there were still rounds in the magazine on another, and the aforementioned situation where the ambi thumb safety loosened enough to prevent me from disengaging it.

It did this with a variety of CMC powermags and Wilson 7 rounders firing everything from Winchester White box to UMC ammo, to Blazer Brass, to Black Hills--all in 230 grain FMJ as well as Remington 230 grain Golder Saber.

So just because it met your accuracy criteria, did not mean that it was reliable.

Here is a thread from elsewhere that covers some of it: http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=56091&page=1

BLR
07-12-2012, 12:27 PM
So just because it met your accuracy criteria, did not mean that it was reliable.


I really don't want to be a jerk here, but what accuracy criteria did I set??? Where did I outline it?

You're taking what I say totally out of context and twisting it to meet your own purposes.

It has been stated 4 times by two people now that I suggest accuracy is an indicator and nothing more. I'm at a loss for why you want to make it more than that.

As to your gunsmithing experience: so now we are at 3 sets of eyes failing to find/diagnose/remedy the problem? Surely you can see my hesitation with this? Getting a 1911 to run isn't black magic.

I'll respond to your Kimber comment in the appropriate thread.

GOP
07-12-2012, 12:37 PM
GOP, I am perplexed. As I understand it, your PPQ has been accurate, reliable and you have been able to shoot sub 4 second FASTests and 1.8 Bill drills on demand with it. Presumably, you have holsters and magazines for it.

Now you are in the M&P camp when you don't even have a pistol that you have confirmed is accurate at 25 yards, and the experience of folks here on PF tells you that getting an accurate M&P is statistically less likely than with a Glock, HK or SIG -- which means it may take some time to get an accurate M&P thru a custom barrel or by buying multiple pistols.

What is with the big rush to switch platforms?

It is pretty simple to me really. The PPQ is awesome, but I just had to pay $80 for a gunsmith to work on the gun AND find a spare part. The gun was down for 3 weeks with a simple issue dealing with the rear sight. The lack of a compact size gun means I am having to compete and train with a gun that I don't always carry (in the summer, I usually wear t-shirts and shorts, in the other seasons I am at college). The sights are fine for close range stuff, but the stock sights and night sight options leave A LOT to be desired at 25m. I plan to eventually instruct, and I want to master a gun that will be used by a large portion of my students, I have heard too many students in classes say things like "if I had a gun like that...I could do that", etc. Also, I am in ESP division in IDPA with the PPQ when my ideal goal was to make Master in the next 2 years in SSP. Primarily, though, the lack of a compact PPQ made me want to switch to another platform so I could carry exactly what I compete with. With the M&P, I can have a full line of pistols from pocket to 5" with extreme aftermarket support, very solid reliability, great ergonomics (the gun feels better than others, though I know that is way overrated), and that eventually will be more accurate than even the PPQ if the G&R and Apex barrels produce 1-2" groups as preliminary reports suggest. I'm 22, so I'm in this for the long run. Much like the Glock series, I have no doubt that the M&P line will be here long term. Walther, well, still is a tiny presence in the US gun market and is almost non-existent in the competition world. I've had an M&P40 in the past, and my speed won't suffer much at all with the M&P series. In fact, my weapons manipulation will probably get even faster with the M&P because of how much I like the controls (I'm a lefty, and I hated the HUGE slide release on the PPQ).

I still own a PPQ and all the accessories, so if this doesn't work out like I expect, I'll just go back to the PPQ like nothing ever happened.

Ed L
07-12-2012, 12:42 PM
I really don't want to be a jerk here, but what accuracy criteria did I set??? Where did I outline it?

You state below that accuracy can be a litmus of quality.


If you take the time to actually read and digest my post here, you will see that I say accuracy can be a litmus for quality. I even said there are exceptions to the rule. However, you seem to be incorrectly assuming that I hold accuracy paramount. I didn't think what I wrote was all that obtuse, but let me state it again: accuracy is an indicator of quality. It indicates the manufacturer spent the time and money to ensure design geometries were adhered to during production. Which, while not without exception, implies in spec parts were used throughout. An inaccurate gun tells me that, for example, the crown was cut off center, or the chamber reamed off center, etc. Which would then imply the machines were not properly maintained and/or quality control isn't doing its job. I would then suspect poor materials, other parts out of spec or fitted incorrectly. That is a different argument than "I need a gun to shoot 1.5" groups at 25yrds with Golden Sabers out of a Ransom rest for me to carry it."

I'm using my Kimber Warrior experience as an example of a gun that certainly wasn't. The gun was very accurate. I could shoot it more accurate than any other handgun I had at the time, but it lacked quality given its shoddy reliability and the fact that it could not be made to run by several gunsmiths (the first of whom I am willing to concede did not do a good job).



As to your gunsmithing experience: so now we are at 3 sets of eyes failing to find/diagnose/remedy the problem? Surely you can see my hesitation with this? Getting a 1911 to run isn't black magic.

I'll respond to your Kimber comment in the appropriate thread.

If you follow the link that I posted, it leads to a thread where both Hilton Yam and Larry Vickers conclude that the Kimber Warrior model has fleas.

SecondsCount
07-12-2012, 01:02 PM
I think everyone here makes some valid points on accuracy vs. reliability.

For an average Joe like myself, I figure most confrontations are going to be really close and dependability is paramount. The issue is that I shoot my handgun in all kinds of scenarios besides self defense and for those purposes I want as much accuracy as I can get.

I can completely see what blr is saying. If the gun manufacturer is not taking the time to build an acceptably accurate gun, what other corners are they cutting?


Getting a 1911 to run isn't black magic.
Truth.

BLR
07-12-2012, 01:03 PM
Ed, again, I'm not trying to be an ass here, but I think I originally used the term necessary but not sufficient. I would suggest reviewing the meaning of that term. You seem to want me, for whatever reason, to say "Accuracy = Done Right." I'm not saying that, I have not said that, and I'm not going to say that. Your argument is somewhat sophomoric in its concept and structure.

Maybe your Kimber is/was junk. That's fine too. Since you seem to be having trouble understanding my comment on them, let me help you. I, as someone who has just slightly more than zero interest in Kimbers and arguing about Kimbers, have difficulty believing they built a successful, profitable company by producing guns that won't run right. Maybe I was totally off the mark. Maybe they can't put together. I don't know.

I'm visiting my local Kimber Master Dealer (Olde English) to get the lowdown on what's up before I insert my foot further into my mouth.

JHC
07-12-2012, 01:28 PM
It is pretty simple to me really. The PPQ is awesome, but I just had to pay $80 for a gunsmith to work on the gun AND find a spare part. The gun was down for 3 weeks with a simple issue dealing with the rear sight. The lack of a compact size gun means I am having to compete and train with a gun that I don't always carry (in the summer, I usually wear t-shirts and shorts, in the other seasons I am at college). The sights are fine for close range stuff, but the stock sights and night sight options leave A LOT to be desired at 25m. I plan to eventually instruct, and I want to master a gun that will be used by a large portion of my students, I have heard too many students in classes say things like "if I had a gun like that...I could do that", etc. Also, I am in ESP division in IDPA with the PPQ when my ideal goal was to make Master in the next 2 years in SSP. Primarily, though, the lack of a compact PPQ made me want to switch to another platform so I could carry exactly what I compete with. With the M&P, I can have a full line of pistols from pocket to 5" with extreme aftermarket support, very solid reliability, great ergonomics (the gun feels better than others, though I know that is way overrated), and that eventually will be more accurate than even the PPQ if the G&R and Apex barrels produce 1-2" groups as preliminary reports suggest. I'm 22, so I'm in this for the long run. Much like the Glock series, I have no doubt that the M&P line will be here long term. Walther, well, still is a tiny presence in the US gun market and is almost non-existent in the competition world. I've had an M&P40 in the past, and my speed won't suffer much at all with the M&P series. In fact, my weapons manipulation will probably get even faster with the M&P because of how much I like the controls (I'm a lefty, and I hated the HUGE slide release on the PPQ).

I still own a PPQ and all the accessories, so if this doesn't work out like I expect, I'll just go back to the PPQ like nothing ever happened.

That's an F'in plan kid!!!! Carry on!!! :cool:

GOP
07-12-2012, 01:59 PM
That's an F'in plan kid!!!! Carry on!!! :cool:

Thanks JHC! I hope it works out like I hope, all I can do is try. If not, I can always blame it on the M&P's :D

JAD
07-12-2012, 05:10 PM
No snark intended in any way, GOP, but I'm surprised one of your reasons isn't your preferred carry location -- I remember you mentioning AIWB in another thread and I've seen SMEs express caution about the suitability of the Walther for that carry mode. Will your M&P have a thumb safety?

Carraway
07-12-2012, 11:55 PM
This is a great discussion. After following it, it sounds I'm wondering if many of those commenting are eschewing new pistols and would instead favor, say, second generation Glocks and older Sigs.

DocGKR
07-13-2012, 01:28 AM
9 mm Glocks up to 2010 and classic 9mm Sigs prior to the Cohen era are good to go in my book...

David Armstrong
07-13-2012, 12:03 PM
This is a great discussion. After following it, it sounds I'm wondering if many of those commenting are eschewing new pistols and would instead favor, say, second generation Glocks and older Sigs.
I've said it before....yes, Gen 2 Glocks. I haven't seen anything new come along that would cause me to change.

David Armstrong
07-13-2012, 12:13 PM
That assertation simply does not juxtapose with my experiences and knowledge. There have been numerous announced and unannounced/incrimental changes implimented by Glock, both from generation to generation, and within specific generations. Some were due to operational issues experienced, others were engineering and/or manufacturing changes. In a non-fingergroove model, for example, I would MUCH rather have a late second-generation Glock as opposed to any first generation one, and overall I think that the pre-MIM/dip extractor Gen 3 9mm guns (particularly the G17 and G19) represent the apogee of Glock fit, parts improvement, reliability and accuracy.

My general rule of thumb, at least prior to the dip/MIM extractor in the Gen 3 guns, and the Gen4 introduction (at least initially) is the later the production gun within a generation, the better the gun (relatively speaking), as it should incorporate any announced and unannounced running changes/improvements.

In the Gen4 lineup, the G21 seems to be performing flawlessly to date, and I think represents a valid improvement over previous G21s-although I've personally felt no compelling need to divest myself of my Gen 3 G21.

Best, Jon
Sure, as I said it is like every second or third supposed improvement takes us away from what was an exceptional design. Some make things better, some have come along because competitors have wanted something, some are to address a once in a million event, some have been the result of some very unusual combinations of things. My point is that we often start out with a very good design and then in an attempt to tweak it we often cause problems.