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BaiHu
07-13-2012, 11:20 AM
Sure, as I said it is like every second or third supposed improvement takes us away from what was an exceptional design. Some make things better, some have come along because competitors have wanted something, some are to address a once in a million event, some have been the result of some very unusual combinations of things. My point is that we often start out with a very good design and then in an attempt to tweak it we often cause problems.

No different in the world of technology. Everyone has to justify their budget, title and salary.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

k831
07-13-2012, 02:19 PM
Buy one. Any one, it really doesn't matter that much. Stick with it. Learn it well. Identify potential problems and reduce the likelihood of them occurring. Stick with it. Learn it better. Shoot it a lot. Stick with it.

Intellectually I understand this. Emotionally, it feels like it matters a ton. I'm stuck in a bit of "analysis paralysis" right now. I think it feels like a big deal because I view it (choosing and consolidating on a platform) as a long-term decision, and making that decision poorly means one of two things; 1.) being stuck with a "mistake" for the long haul, or 2.) Starting over and all that entails.

I had an M&P 9c that I liked a lot. Only two things I liked about my brothers G19 better. Mag changes were faster for me on the 19 because I never pinched the part of my palm that hangs over and it and the 19 required less grip adjustment when changing and second, his G17 was far more accurate than my 9c's bigger brother.

Also, as a newer shooter, to pistols anyways (been hunting since I was 12) I don't really want to mess with buying a gun that may or may not have all these types of issues discussed in this thread. I want to buy it and train. I don't want to go through the trouble shooting described here, the ordering and swapping of parts, spending extra money etc to get it to where I can finally focus on training. And then doing that again and again whenever I buy a secondary.

That got me looking at the PPQ/P99 or a P2000 (with the PPS or SK as my carry when I'm at work with the shirt tucked in and a non-permissive environment) however; I don't want to fight the lack of mags, parts, holsters etc. That was one nice thing about the M&P, every shop I went to had mags etc. Plus, I do hear/read a lot of chatter steering newer shooters like me away from guns with the high bore axis or funky triggers (P2000/HK P30), simply for ease of getting proficient faster.

JodyH
07-13-2012, 03:37 PM
I don't let the lack of mags or off the shelf holsters bother me.
When I buy a new platform the first thing I do is buy 10 or so magazines off the internet so that's taken care of straight away.
As to holsters no matter what you do it's a PITA to find "the" holster (especially AIWB) so I just plug along until I find one that works and sell off the rest.
The good thing about "uncommon" guns is the holsters you don't like will usually sell quick on the forums for the same price you paid for them since other owners are also searching for the "one" and they can't just walk into the local store and buy one.
Spare parts have never been an issue for me even with guns like the Walther or H&K's. I do a little research and buy the most often needed spares/replacements before I need them, that way if/when it needs replaced I'm not down waiting on a slow boat from Germany. I also tend to buy my guns in pairs so I have a backup/parts gun if needed.
I've settled on the P2000/P2000SK LEM 9mm's and don't see myself changing for a long time.

btw: the "chatter" about high bore axis or the LEM being a funky trigger is just that, chatter based on ignorance. Buy a pistol and take a class from an instructor who's experienced with that platform and you'll gain proficiency at the same rate as you would with any other gun.

GJM
07-14-2012, 12:52 AM
Just a few days after proclaiming how well our Glocks are running, my wife's newish FDE Glock 17 cratered today, and started experiencing stoppages almost every magazine (different magazines, Aguila 124 ball). We are 100 miles from the nearest paved road, in remote Alaska. It is her only G17 here (she has her G29 as primary and a Guide Gun, so no worries).The good news is I have a few 17's with me, and I plan to pull an extractor from one of mine later, replace it, and shoot it again to tomorrow. I am not very mechanical, but I can work on a Glock, which is an advantage out in the boondocks. By chance, I have a few of the new Glock non-dip extractors inbound from Brownell's due to arrive in a day or two, back in town.

Part way thru the session, both of us shooting a G17 as typical, I grabbed a P30 that I had brought along in my range bag, just to safisfy my curiosity. I warmed up with some dots, and went right to a FASTest. Hardly fair to the P30, my my two FASTests with it were 1.5 seconds slower than my G17 ones just before. Curiosity satisfied, I took the P30 off, put the 17 back on, and carried on.

Later, I zeroed a new Gen 4 Glock 20, which is my Glock bear blaster, along with the G29. The Gen 4 shot great, the texture helped hang onto it with the hot 10mm ammo, and recoil felt modest. Only issue I had, was with my 200 grain penetrator ammo, I was getting premature lock backs with cartridges in the magazine, which I suspect is related to the Vickers slides top. It was fun shooting dots with the 200 grain penetrator ammo. I ran one FASTest with the penetrator ammo, 5.8 clean, faster than the darn P30 9mm! Not a caliber I would want to run a class with, but certainly a lot easier to shoot well than a Scandium .44 magnum.

RyanTheLion
07-14-2012, 01:33 AM
My father asked me to make a recommendation to my cousin for his first handgun, he is considering a 1911. I thought my response would be useful to others in the same situation. I am a LONGTIME lurker on forums, however lately I've been motivated to share what I've learned, so hopefully you'll find this information beneficial. This is my opinion based on my experience, so I'm not intending to start a flame-war by not mentioning a brand, or putting down a specific model (that I might not have enough experience with). This is my first post on pistol-forum, but I hope it will be one of many.

-

I think one of the basic questions is whether you intend to wear this concealed? If you're going concealed you may want a Commander or Officer length (4" - 4.5" barrel depending on manufacturer). I only have experience with Government (GI) length 5" barrel 1911s so that's what I feel comfortable discussing. At the end of this (epic) post, I'll discuss other options than the 1911 for your consideration.

My first gun purchase was a Springfield GI .45 A1 (http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?model=7). It is a basic entry level gun with good reputation for reliability and has a low entry price ($525 when I purchased in 2009). The short comings of this particular pistol is that although Springfield is a US company this model's frame is made by Imbel in Brazil. It also has low profile sights that are staked (not dove-tailed) and are not easily replaced by better after market ones. The workmanship of the gun is good, however since the frame is foreign made, I'm hesitant in investing in expensive gunsmithing services to improve sights. If I had to make the decision again, I would have spent $250 more for the Range Officer (http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?model=27), a USA made frame, better sights, and a better trigger pull. However that would mean I would have invested more than 50% than the cheaper model. I can't recall a malfunction in more than 1450 rounds, so I can not comment on Springfield's customer service or warranty. Since I already own the GI A1, I've researched upgrading and refinishing it. To completely strip the internals, replace with better match quality parts, drill dovetail sights, and refinish I estimated about $1200 on top of the pistol's original price. Compare that $1700 with the cost of a $2600 custom gun (http://www.cylinder-slide.com/index.php?app=ccp0&ns=prodshow&ref=T078) made with the same frame.

If you intend to keep the gun forever, don't worry about resale value, think about shooting it. You will spend many times more money for ammo, and a better shooting experience is worth it. If you want a stainless or chrome version, buy it, so you're not regretting it later. The finish will probably wear similarly to parkerizing, but you might have better resale value with a lighter finish. However, you may be more likely to baby it.

If you get a manufacturer that builds to mil-spec, you'll have a lot of options for after market parts, however don't bank on replacing something later if you're unhappy with it to begin with.

FYI - The difference between a Series 70 and Series 80 is the firing pin block. Series 80 has a firing pin block, which means it's safer, but probably has a slightly less appealing trigger pull. The 70s are only meant for range work.

Magazines - Bad magazines will make a $5k gun perform like a $50 saturday night special. Invest in quality magazines. I like Wilson Combat (http://www.wilsoncombat.com/) or Chip McCormick (http://www.cmcmags.com/), but the one that came stock with my Springfield has never had a hiccup.

Here are a few other models I've considered and researched for myself:

Remington R1 (http://www.1911r1.com/) - Remington hasn't made handguns in a long-time until now. If you like the company, you probably will be happy with this gun. The enhanced version is more expensive, but it has better sights and some upgraded parts.

Colt (http://www.coltsmfg.com/Catalog/ColtPistols.aspx) - Colt is an old brand, but they've gone through many owners in the last 100 years. They do not have a reputation for good or quick customer service to civilians. You'll probably spend about $860 for a gun that Springfield sells for $525, however a Colt will always have a better resale value.

Kimber (http://www.kimberamerica.com/) - I've heard Kimber was an awesome manufacturer, however they got too popular too quick and some of their quality assurance suffered from it. They are not cheap, however people really like them. If I was considering a $2500 gun, I'd spend $1200 on the Team Match II and not look back.

I probably wouldn't buy:

Rock Island Armory (http://www.armscorusa.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2&Itemid=9) - Made in Phillipines, some people like them, but I'd look elsewhere.

Auto Ordnance (http://www.auto-ordnance.com/) - I like their parent company, Kahr (http://www.kahr.com/), but I have no experience with their 1911s.

Para Ordnance (http://www.para-usa.com/) - I've heard they are jam-o-matics.

Smith and Wesson (http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Category4_750001_750051_757754_-1_757752_757751_image) - I like S&W, and have a 15-22 that I'm very happy with, however for the money I'd rather have a Springfield or Kimber.

Sig Sauer (http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProductList/pistols-1911.aspx) - If I was buying a Sig, I'd get something more traditional like a 220, 226, 229. This brand's 1911 is not mil-spec.

Ruger (http://www.ruger.com/products/sr1911/models.html) - This American manufacturer has a huge following and supposedly great customer service. However I am not a huge fan of their .22 pistols, 9mm pistols, or 10-22 rifles, so I don't own any Ruger guns. This might be an awesome gun, but I haven't had an opportunity to shoot one and change my mind.

If money was not a constraint ($2k+ 'semi-custom' 1911s) in no particular order:

Ed Brown (http://www.edbrown.com/)

Nighthawk (http://www.nighthawkcustom.com/)

Les Baer (http://www.lesbaer.com/)

Wilson Combat (http://www.wilsoncombat.com/)

STI (http://www.stiguns.com/)


If you can be persuaded to hold on the 1911 and go forward with something else, then continue reading:

.45 is more expensive to shoot compared to 9mm. Less money for ammo means more practice, more practice means you'll be a better shooter sooner for cheaper. Personal defense is all about shot placement, however a .45 is significantly more lead to deposit in a threat. 1 round missed with a .45 does not equal one round hit with a 9mm.

.40 caliber ammo has a bigger diameter than 9mm and less diameter than .45. I bought a .40 and had feeding issues with it that inspired me to return it and get a 9mm instead. Cops seem to like it, however women and smaller framed folks might have a harder time controlling the snappier recoil. The .40 is more expensive to shoot than 9mm. I am now considering getting a .40 with a 9mm conversion barrel to shoot in a different class of competition, however I'm in zero hurry to do it.

Glock 19 (http://us.glock.com/products/model/g19) (Gen 3) - I was a polymer frame and Glock hater. I couldn't be convinced I was going to like this gun. However, after taking a class with a heavy, steel framed CZ, I decided if I was going to continue training, I wanted to something lighter weight that I could ABUSE. It took me months to get used to the trigger pull and grip, however practice and dry-firing have overcome any issues to make this my PREFERRED HANDGUN. This was my 6th handgun purchase, however I should have gotten it first and saved about 4 other guns from the process. I have almost 5 thousand rounds through mine so far and only bought it in January. Glocks have the same trigger feel from model to model (except for target/competition models), so you can go from a sub compact 9mm to a full-size .45 and have the same trigger pull.

CZ 75 SP01 (http://www.cz-usa.com/products/view/cz-75-sp-01/) - This was my 3rd handgun purchase and is an excellent range gun. CZ is often copied, but never duplicated. Other manufactures like Armalite, Magnum Research, and Tangfolio (EAA) make clones, but I'd rather have a CZ any day. I have 3 variations of the CZ-75 (SP01, Kadet .22, and Compact). If you want a gun you can be proud of and shoot the piss out of, look no further. They have excellent customer service even though they are manufactured in Czechoslovakia.

Other Brands/Guns:

S&W M&P Series (http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Category3_750001_750051_757781_-1_Y) - I know people that really like them, but I'm committed to Glock for now. They just released the Shield (http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Category4_750001_750051_780153_-1_757781_757781_image) which is getting a lot of press for being a good, concealable gun.

HK (http://www.hk-usa.com/civilian_products/pistols.asp) - Pretty expensive but good guns. I'd rather have 2 Glocks. The P-30 has great ergonomics.

XD (http://www.springfield-armory.com/xd.php)/XDM (http://www.the-m-factor.com/html/home.html) - These are imported by Springfield from Croatia. I know people that like them, but I'm committed to Glock for now. For a while, I was really interested in their compact .45 (a longer magazine extends the grip to give a full-size feel). The XDS (http://www.xdspistol.com/) is a new model, it's a slim, concealable single-stack .45.

Walther (http://www.smith-wesson.com/walther/) - I really like the PPQ (http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=13152&storeId=10002&productId=786514&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=769157&isFirearm=Y), but I'm not in a hurry to buy one. The PPK (http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=13152&storeId=10002&categoryId=43802&langId=-1&parent_category_rn=43326&top_category=43326) is legendary, but I think it's losing its relevance.

Beretta (http://www.berettausa.com/) - I was considering a 92-fs before I purchased the CZ-75 SP01, however I much prefer the safety on the frame, not the slide. I am not a fan of decockers.

Sig Sauer (http://www.sigsauer.com/) - I like the feel and reputation of Sig, however I do not like decocker guns. They have good ergonomics and are reliable.

Browning / FNH Hi-Power (http://www.fnherstal.com/index.php?id=269&backPID=263&productID=74&pid_product=295&pidList=263&categorySelector=5&detail=&cHash=b354170a5d) - This is another gun designed by John Moses Browning (of 1911 lore), it is a legend in it's own right.

Brands that I would not choose for my first handgun:

Kahr (I have a CM9 that I'm really happy with, but don't make this your first and only gun)
Kel-tec (light and somewhat punishing to shoot)
Taurus (Questionable quality, however some people have gotten lucky and really like the brand for the value)
Hi-Point (You can do better than this.)

For the record, published magazines get paid to advertise the same brands they are reviewing, you need to cross reference people's experience with particular models, or invest in a company that stands by their warranty. Shipping a gun back for warranty service is not fun and can be more than a hundred dollars in postage, you want to invest in a company that will pay to correct their mistakes.

I have spent a lot of time in the last year doing my own research on guns that I want to own, so I hope this information is helpful. Please do not hesitate to ask me any questions on the topic.

If I've made any factual misstatements, if you disagree with any of my opinions, or if you have anything to add that you think is beneficial to other people that are starting the journey to handgun ownership - please reply to this thread.

JHC
07-14-2012, 02:32 AM
Just a few days after proclaiming how well our Glocks are running, my wife's newish FDE Glock 17 cratered today, and started experiencing stoppages almost every magazine (different magazines, Aguila 124 ball). We are 100 miles from the nearest paved road, in remote Alaska. It is her only G17 here (she has her G29 as primary and a Guide Gun, so no worries).The good news is I have a few 17's with me, and I plan to pull an extractor from one of mine later, replace it, and shoot it again to tomorrow. I am not very mechanical, but I can work on a Glock, which is an advantage out in the boondocks. By chance, I have a few of the new Glock non-dip extractors inbound from Brownell's due to arrive in a day or two, back in town.

Part way thru the session, both of us shooting a G17 as typical, I grabbed a P30 that I had brought along in my range bag, just to safisfy my curiosity. I warmed up with some dots, and went right to a FASTest. Hardly fair to the P30, my my two FASTests with it were 1.5 seconds slower than my G17 ones just before. Curiosity satisfied, I took the P30 off, put the 17 back on, and carried on.

Later, I zeroed a new Gen 4 Glock 20, which is my Glock bear blaster, along with the G29. The Gen 4 shot great, the texture helped hang onto it with the hot 10mm ammo, and recoil felt modest. Only issue I had, was with my 200 grain penetrator ammo, I was getting premature lock backs with cartridges in the magazine, which I suspect is related to the Vickers slides top. It was fun shooting dots with the 200 grain penetrator ammo. I ran one FASTest with the penetrator ammo, 5.8 clean, faster than the darn P30 9mm! Not a caliber I would want to run a class with, but certainly a lot easier to shoot well than a Scandium .44 magnum.

The MIM extractors must be soft. Have you grouped the Gen 4 G20 at 25 yds yet?

F-Trooper05
07-14-2012, 02:32 AM
I think most of the 1911 efficianados here will disagree with you on your statement regarding Series 70's being for range work only.

In any event, my advice for a first time gun owner is "don't buy a 1911." But if you must, then be dedicated to the platform, and be willing to study it the same way some guys study old cars. Personally I got better shit to do, so I'll continue to carry my plastic gun and drive my 2010 Toyota, and be happy with the fact that I'm not on a first name basis with my mechanic and/or gunsmith.

Comedian
07-14-2012, 02:54 AM
GJM, is your P30 DA/SA or LEM?

BLR
07-14-2012, 06:25 AM
I think most of the 1911 efficianados here will disagree with you on your statement regarding Series 70's being for range work only.

In any event, my advice for a first time gun owner is "don't buy a 1911." But if you must, then be dedicated to the platform, and be willing to study it the same way some guys study old cars. Personally I got better shit to do, so I'll continue to carry my plastic gun and drive my 2010 Toyota, and be happy with the fact that I'm not on a first name basis with my mechanic and/or gunsmith.

Looking at the P30/M&P thread going, it appears that isn't a valid stance anymore. From that thread, it merely appears that your odds of getting a straight gun are somewhat better with the P30 than the rest right now.

cdunn
07-14-2012, 08:21 AM
I like 1911's,I have a couple.I would not recommend one for a first,thw S&W's are nice I shot one alot with no issues,stay away from the Kimber.
I would push him towards a glock, or M&P. both user friendly, very little maintenance, and better chance of getting one that is going to work out of the box.
you can get used glocks for cheap.

YVK
07-14-2012, 08:42 AM
.The good news is I have a few 17's with me.

I had to both italicize and use bold, but this is a vintage GJM :)


GJM, is your P30 DA/SA or LEM?

Comedian, the answer to your question is "yes".

Jac
07-14-2012, 08:59 AM
A clean 5.8 second FAST with full-house 10mm?!

I feel like I should go turn in my man card now...

Tamara
07-14-2012, 09:42 AM
My first gun purchase was a Springfield GI .45 A1 (http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?model=7). It is a basic entry level gun with good reputation for reliability and has a low entry price ($525 when I purchased in 2009). The short comings of this particular pistol is that although Springfield is a US company this model's frame is made by Imbel in Brazil. It also has low profile sights that are staked (not dove-tailed) and are not easily replaced by better after market ones. The workmanship of the gun is good, however since the frame is foreign made, I'm hesitant in investing in expensive gunsmithing services to improve sights. If I had to make the decision again, I would have spent $250 more for the Range Officer (http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?model=27), a USA made frame, better sights, and a better trigger pull.

All SA 1911s begin life in Brazil.

Every SA 1911, from the lowliest GI Milspec to the nicest Professional, has a frame that is forged by Imbel. To the best of my knowledge, your whole gun was made in Brazil.

The non-Imbel marked ones come into the country as "80% forgings" and are finish-machined and built into guns at the Geneseo facility, rather than in Brazil.

I would council your cousin to stay away from <5" 1911s. For that matter, I just generally wouldn't recommend a 1911 as a first/only gun.

GJM
07-14-2012, 09:47 AM
The P30 was a LEM with the TLG trigger. I know the test wasn't fair to the P30, but between the DA revolver rounds I have been shooting, some dry fire I have been doing on the sly after each time I talk to YVK, read things like TLG's man crush on the P30, and the fact that I have been shooting my Glock trigger like the P30 by rolling it through, I thought I would shoot the HK better from the get go. I told YVK that I thought he would shoot the Glock better than the P30 after two sessions.

JHC, I can't remember if I made it back to 25 yards, as I was mostly interested in function, and verifying zero with the HD sights. Certainly I got to 15-20 yards, drawing to the 3x5, plus shooting dots, and the pistol just felt plain accurate, which isn't surprising as every Glock 10 I have had, shoots accurately, and the Gen 4 21 shoots very accurately. I can't be sure if it is placebo, but the G4 20 subjectively feels softer shooting, which may be the new recoil spring arrangement, the grip texture of the G4, or the fact that I mostly have been shooting a Glock 29 lately. Interestingly, my wife had no problem with the size of the grip on the G4 20, where a regular 20 has always felt big to her.

I shouldn't have mentioned the absolute time on the G20 FAST, as I am thinking of a PF personal rule of no times without video proof, with rule two being, while my video is interesting to me for training purposes, nobody else is interested in seeing video of me shooting. What is interesting to me, is my 10mm FAST with the 200 grain penetrator ammo was faster than my two P30 runs with just 9mm. As to difference with the Glock 17 runs, splits on the body with the Glock 20 were around .45 seconds, the second head was about .20 slower, and the reload was a few tenths slower, likely due to no grip plug and unfamiliarity reloading the 10 size magazines.

I can't wait to have the Apex extractors available. After reading some last night, I am worried the non-dip extractors I have on the way from Brownell's may not be non-dip after all.

DocGKR
07-14-2012, 10:05 AM
"I shouldn't have mentioned the absolute time on the G20 FAST, as I am thinking of a PF personal rule of no times without video proof, with rule two being, while my video is interesting to me for training purposes, nobody else is interested in seeing video of me shooting."

I think that would be a mistake. It is all about context. Your description of what you were doing was enhanced by letting us know the time, as you were clearly describing what occurred in this particular training event and the insight you gained from your efforts. While it would be neat to see you rock a 10mmo FAST, video "proof" is not necessary. Note that your comments are very different than claiming you could do it on demand, with any striker fired pistol.

BLR
07-14-2012, 10:22 AM
For that matter, I just generally wouldn't recommend a 1911 as a first/only gun.

I would respectfully disagree. Here is why the 1911 makes a good first/only handgun:

1. Operation is simple and straight forward
2. It has a first rate manual safety
3. Often, it is very accurate.
4. The trigger is a marvelous one for learning marksmanship fundamentals.
5. The purchase of a 22LR kit for it is cheap, and provides a wonderful (read: inexpensive) tool for refinement of marksmanship basics.

The downsides are, of course there too. But hey, life isn't fun if it isn't interesting.

JV_
07-14-2012, 10:35 AM
4. The trigger is a marvelous one for learning marksmanship fundamentals.

I'd much rather see someone learn to shoot a long DA trigger, like one that's found on a DA/SA gun or revolver, than a 1911.

derekb
07-14-2012, 10:43 AM
I would respectfully disagree. Here is why the 1911 makes a good first/only handgun:

1. Operation is simple and straight forward

I don't believe that the operation of a 1911 is significantly more or less simple than any other common handgun.

BLR
07-14-2012, 10:49 AM
I'd much rather see someone learn to shoot a long DA trigger, like one that's found on a DA/SA gun or revolver, than a 1911.

I assume you are implying a safety issue? A very valid concern.

Each girlfriend I've taught to shoot, was started by spending an evening (at least part of an evening ;) ) dry firing. Learning grip, stance, sight alignment, trigger pull. Better to learn off the range IMHO.

That's the limit of my "training" experience, though.

JV_
07-14-2012, 10:57 AM
I assume you are implying a safety issue?No.

If the person wants to learn how to shoot a 1911 well, then using a 1911 is probably a wise choice.

But, if they want to also shoot other guns, like Glocks and DA/SA guns, I think the long/smooth/heavier pull of a revolver or DA/SA gun tends to work better because they're focusing on applying more and more pressure while keeping the gun still and working the trigger.

FWIW: I use a revolver when my trigger finger needs some fine tuning.

BLR
07-14-2012, 11:04 AM
There you go, different strokes for different folks.

DocGKR
07-14-2012, 11:34 AM
Since 1985, at various times I have been issued, qualified with, or authorized to carry the Beretta 92F/M9, classic Sig P226/228 & P220, S&W 3rd gen pistols, Glock 9 mm's, S&W M&P's, various 1911’s, as well as several S&W revolvers including J, K, L , and N-frames. I also have a fair degree of experience with Browning Hi-Powers, Glock 22/23 & 21, various HK pistols. I have been certified as an armorer on several of these systems. All of these handguns had both good and bad characteristics.

A properly customized 5" steel-frame single-stack 1911 in .45 ACP is a superb, unparalleled choice for the dedicated user with a bit of gray in their hair, who grew-up using the 1911, and who is willing to spend a significant amount of money to get it properly initially set-up and considerable time to maintain it. Keep in mind with 1911 pistols that calibers other than .45 ACP and barrels shorter than 5" induce increasingly greater problems. I personally will not use any 1911 with a Schwartz firing pin safety (like on the Kimber II pistols) as I have seen high numbers of them fail; the Colt Series 80 firing pin safety is the only one I might trust for urban LE use, but they have also been known to fail in harsh environments (particularly surf zone and high dust) so I generally prefer a standard USG style 1911 pistol w/o firing pin safety. However, I personally would not choose to carry most stock or even semi-custom 1911's on duty without making sure they were set-up properly with reliable function, durable parts, and ergonomic execution.

I firmly believe that if you want a 1911 for serious use, the minimum level of quality for a duty/carry weapon is the SA Pro model (either PC9111 or PC9111LR if you want a light rail); if you’re not willing to invest that much into the weapon system, don't get a 1911... I write this after being around quite a few 1911's over the past two decades of military and LE duty, including GI, commercial Colt, SA (Milspec, Loaded, MC Oper, Professional models), Wilson, Kimber, Nighthawk, Les Baer, and Para Ord, as well as custom pistols by folks like Bill Laughridge, Wayne Novak/Joe Bonar, Ed Brown, John Jardine, Hilton Yam, Larry Vickers, and Chuck Rogers. I'd strongly recommend anyone contemplating a 1911 for serious use read all of the material on 1911's here: http://www.10-8performance.com/Articles.html.

Note--I did not find carrying a concealed 5" 1911 any harder than a 3.5 or 4" model, especially when carrying a LW 5" 1911 like the Chuck Rogers customized one shown below that I used for many years--in fact the 5" model was more secure in AIWB/IWB mode due to the longer barrel length and tended to be much more functionally reliable than the shorter 1911 types I tried:

http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=4330&filename=57950-Rogers_SA_LW1911.jpg

For folks who want a .45 ACP pistol, but don't want to invest the funds and effort into getting a good 1911, they would be better served with the S&W M&P45, HK45, or 4th gen G21. After being issued, qualified on, or carrying 1911's for 25 years, in 2011 I retired the 1911's and transitioned to the M&P45 w/ambi safety and Apex duty kit.

The nice aspects of .45 ACP are that it makes large holes, can be very accurate, and offers good penetration of some intermediate barriers. Unfortunately, magazine capacity is less than ideal, .45 ACP is more expensive to practice with, and in general is harder to shoot well compared with 9 mm. .45 ACP makes the most sense in states with idiotic 10 rd magazine restrictions, in departments that give you lots of free .45 ACP ammo, or in situations where modern expanding ammunition is restricted due to asinine, illogical regulations.

Unless you live in a state with an idiotic restriction on magazine capacity, most folks would be better off with a quality 9 mm, which is why I dropped .45 ACP handguns for 2012 and am only using 9 mm...

10mm
07-14-2012, 12:17 PM
I like my Dan Wesson RZ-10 1911.It runs well and accurate.No BS extra FPS.If your friend gets himself a 45acp Valor he will probably be very happy.They aren't cheap but many consider them to be one of the best production 1911's available.

Sriggs
07-14-2012, 12:31 PM
And the SIGpro/P2022 series guns are real sleepers: reliable, accurate, inexpensive, and reasonably shootable with the only problem being aftermarket support.

Just out of curiosity, does anyone have really good experience with these, German or Exeter (I believe they switched to the eternal extractor and added an LCI in Exeter). They seem to be great bargains according to the less focused forums about, and they do feel like they have potential at the LGS (not that you can tell much without putting it to real use). If they turn out to not have any major skeletons in the closet they may be something to recommend to budget minded individuals to keep them out of taurus land or other such mistakes waiting to happen, keeping in mind the attention and effort the DA/SA requires to utilize.

Tamara
07-14-2012, 01:05 PM
I'm giving serious consideration to not opening threads with "1911" in the title anymore. Ironic, considering that's a '66 Colt in a Galco Royal Guard in my avatar...

Serpico1985
07-14-2012, 03:19 PM
Info from Bruce Gray on why he likes the 2022, it's pro's and con's:

http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/430601935/m/3750066292?r=1760008292#1760008292

Third post down.

BLR
07-14-2012, 04:25 PM
Seriously, I'm formulating an actual reply! :o

Promises, promises.

;)

GJM
07-14-2012, 05:11 PM
Glock reliability update. To try to fix my wife's G3 FDE 17, I pulled the extractor out of a RTF 17, thinking since it was a pre 2011 pistol, the extractor should be fine. Short answer is that it didn't fix my wife's FDE 17, and I think it is time for it to go visit Smyrna. I sure hope they can fix it, because the pistol is very accurate and has a great trigger.

My FDE 17 is about 1,500 rounds with zero stoppages. The only other problem 17 I have, is a newish G3 OD 17, built during the Glock glory years, that occasionally didn't fully eject the last round in the magazine. I recently tried the G4 five digit ejector and after 300 rounds, or so, it seems to have fixed the problem.

It seems like my problems coincided with me telling DocGKR how reliable my Glock pistols have been -- hope he doesn't have a GJM voodoo doll with a Glock hat that he is pushing needles into.

JHC
07-14-2012, 08:02 PM
You've got enough of a sample size to demo that no gen of any era achieived perfection actually. You still have the Brownell shipment coming to try one of those out eh?

GJM
07-14-2012, 08:25 PM
Yeah, but after reading a thread on M4, I am concerned what I thought was post dip may still be the dip extractors?

Sriggs
07-15-2012, 05:19 PM
Info from Bruce Gray on why he likes the 2022, it's pro's and con's:

http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/430601935/m/3750066292?r=1760008292#1760008292

Third post down.

Interesting stuff, I guess the Sp2022 stands as one of those rarely maligned, but still not quite popular makes. Curious how firearms like that can put forth an apparent quality built platform with decent features at a reasonable price and still remain under a lot of people's radars. While I am investigating models and makes I have little knowledge on, is there a reason that Beretta's 92 series isn't more popular?

I hear a lot about Sigs (similar feature set) but relatively little about people utilizing a variant of the 92 series as their choice for training/defense/nightstand. I don't think I have ever seen anyone seriously assail it, and when it does come up everyone from guys on the range, behind store counters, and even on the good ol' interwebs has good things to say. I can see why the lack of current production G models (or safety set ups like the Steel 1), the discontinuation of vertec style grips, as well as the general trend away from non polymer handguns and a preference for a consistent trigger could hurt their popularity; however I personally prefer the handling of the 92 series to that of the Sig 200's (though this is just fondling, some practice draws and dry reloads, could change if I had actual use of them), that ergonomic edge as well as the availability of the 92 series at a comparatively budget value (92a1 for $566 shipped on sale? Not to bad) seems like they would make a decent set up as they have relatively strong mag/parts/holster availability.

Is there a quality issue out there? some aspect that gives them a lower performance ceiling? Am I just the odd one out for preferring how the 92 series feels? Is BUSA doing something wrong? Or are they just white noise in a world moving away from older designs?

DocGKR
07-15-2012, 06:18 PM
Beretta inexplicably chose to stop making the best 92 variants. In addition, the current commercial ones have lots of cheap plastic parts in them. The standard 92F/M9 is difficult to change the sights on. Finally, lots of folks still remember the broken locking block issues that initially plagued the U.S. built 92's...

Jared
07-15-2012, 08:10 PM
I run Beretta 92's, a 92A1 for the nightstand and a 92FS for practice. My thoughts are based on close to ten thousand rounds in the last fourteen months, but here goes.

I don't mind the plastic parts, they haven't broke on me. The only one that I could do without is the plastic guide rod, and that's easily replaced if you want to.

Beretta trigger pulls are a bit stagey, if that's the right word. Both of mine have a hard spot in DA right before they drop the hammer. It's less noticeable on my Italian A1, but it has twice the rounds through it, so the US FS may smooth more eventually.

The A1 has dovetailed sights, which would mitigate the problems, if you can find a holster (good luck) and aftermarket sights.

The slide mounted safety/decocker combo is less than ideal. I have spent a lot of practice time making sure I can work the slide and not accidentally engage the safety.

The da/sa trigger mode isn't popular today, but I myself don't mind it a bit. I shoot a Beretta 92 better than any striker gun I've ever tried (that said, my skill set ain't the best here to say the least).

All in all, I'm happy with my choice, and don't really see a reason to change. The A1 has never had a stoppage, the FS had one failure to go fully into battery during an admin load in all this time, so reliability wise I'm very happy. The accuracy has been all I could ask for. If someone asked me about a Beretta, I'd probably advise them of the known issues, the PM schedule, and let them decide.

None of this is meant to argue with or disrespect DocGKR, just sharing my experience.

Outlier
07-15-2012, 09:17 PM
Buy a pistol and take a class from an instructor who's experienced with that platform and you'll gain proficiency at the same rate as you would with any other gun.

I realize I am a new member here, but who might that be for the HK LEM users? My question isn't solely directed at you Jody, you just happened to be the one to give the great advice. :)

Sriggs
07-15-2012, 09:50 PM
Beretta trigger pulls are a bit stagey, if that's the right word. Both of mine have a hard spot in DA right before they drop the hammer. It's less noticeable on my Italian A1, but it has twice the rounds through it, so the US FS may smooth more eventually.


Have you swapped in a factory D spring? Seems to be a popular mod.

FotoTomas
07-16-2012, 12:00 AM
I am a Glock fan and a Beretta fan. The only Beretta I truly prefer is the 92 series in 9mm. I had many years carrying a 92D Centurion for work and off duty. I went to the Beretta armorers course on the 92/96 and police firearms instructor school with a Beretta 92D. I purchased a Beretta 92D exactly like my issued piece for off duty and when the agency switched to the SIG 229R DAK I still carried my 92D off duty a lot. I really like the 92 series.

While I did buy a new 229 recently to be my off duty choice and to keep my liability exposure limited I simply have not warmed up to the piece. I am seriously considering selling it of for a 92A1 to go with my 92D and 92FS Police Special. For me the Beretta 92 is one of the classic pistols of history and one of MY favorite weapons.

Of course I am also a two faced hypocrite. My goto pistol is a Glock 26. It is the semi auto I will keep over all others. The size, simplicity, capacity, accessories, support, accuracy and economy make it my #1 choice if I can have only one.

DocGKR
07-16-2012, 02:03 AM
My personal experience with the 92 has been mixed. I went through the police academy with an early Italian manufactured 92F. Although it was large for the caliber and the sights were not ideal, the finish was beautiful with no rust occurring in 5 years of use, the action was very slick, and the mediocre trigger pull had been improved by an LAPD gunsmith. The most impressive characteristic of this pistol was that it was EXTREMELY reliable--there were NO malfunctions in 25,000+ rounds of Winchester and Federal 147gr JHP's. I had a different experience with Beretta's when I went TAD to a Marine unit which had M9's. These U.S. made Berettas were far different than the one which I had used at the PD: the finish was horrible, the trigger pull was agonizingly rough and L O N G, in addition the pistols were not particularly accurate and they were prone to broken parts and rust--in short the USG Berettas we had were garbage. Through the late 1990’s and early 2000’s, few if any M9's I am aware of made it through the 6 week Marine SOTG handgun package at Range 130 Camp Pendleton without breaking; this was in sharp contrast to the MEU-SOC 1911’s which generally completed the course without catastrophic malfunctions (which is not to say that continued use of 1911’s is a good idea).

ADKilla
07-16-2012, 06:36 AM
Have you swapped in a factory D spring? Seems to be a popular mod.

Wholeheartedly concur; probably the best thing you can do to improve the trigger pull.

Having used USG M9s I completely concur with DocGKR. I have shot the 92 Elite models, and the civilian trigger's a little better. In fact, the last time I went to Rogers Shooting School, a Beretta 92 Elite II still held the top score (but that was five years ago, so things might have changed).

A good duty weapon. But for concealed carry, IMHO the negatives, including the big butt, size to weight ratio, and less than stellar trigger pull, make other alternatives more attractive.

Jared
07-16-2012, 06:38 AM
Have you swapped in a factory D spring? Seems to be a popular mod.

Yes, it lightened the pull, the hard spot at the end is still there, it's just a bit lighter now. Like I said before the Italian hun is noticeably slicker. That's about the only difference I have personally seen on Italian and US guns except for the pin that holds the mainspring in.

NickA
07-16-2012, 11:19 AM
Info from Bruce Gray on why he likes the 2022, it's pro's and con's:

http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/430601935/m/3750066292?r=1760008292#1760008292

Third post down.

Wow, the SP2022 is actually his carry gun. Considering he could probably afford whatever he wants and make it run any way he wants, that certainly says something.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

Sriggs
07-16-2012, 02:44 PM
Wow, the SP2022 is actually his carry gun. Considering he could probably afford whatever he wants and make it run any way he wants, that certainly says something.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

That is what I thought, somewhere back in the day they mentioned that he (or someone from grayguns) carried it as a reserve deputy. So if the shop known for working on Sigs of all varieties (and H&Ks for that matter) likes them that much, they must be a good option, or at least warrant some thought especially considering their cost.

Firestickfilms
07-16-2012, 10:11 PM
Just out of curiosity why no love for the XD/XDM? They seem to be at least as reliable as the variously malfunctionng Glocks and more accurate than the M&Ps with fairly good triggers to boot. I'm mostly an HK shooter (P30 & HK45 TLG/LEMs) myself but of all the striker guns the XDM has piqued my interest the most at the range.

GJM
07-16-2012, 10:26 PM
I am in MT tonight, walked thru the LGS, and youngish, big dude is staring intently, trying to decide between two pistols -- XD in .40 and XDM in .40.

I asked him why the XD(M), why .40, and if he was familiar with the grip safety. Said he didn't know it had a grip safety, but that he had extensive experience in the military with the P226. I asked Navy, and he replied, yes, a Navy Seal. Told me he learned to fully disassemble and reassemble the 226, blindfolded, in 16 seconds. To my question about why .40, he told me he was way over 9, as it wouldn't work in a defensive situation. I suggested he also look at a Glock and M&P -- he asked what a M&P was?

At that point, I kept walking to the binocular section.

Firestickfilms
07-16-2012, 10:46 PM
Ok, there will always be Mall Ninjas, ahem, SEALs that will make choices out of ignorance but I am fully aware of the grip saftey and do not see it as a reliability issue any more on an XDM than a 1911. I'm just looking for data points, my wife really liked the way the XDM shot and was having trouble with the DA pull of her P226. Most of what I'm reading suggests the XD/XDM is a good gun, what are the experiences here? Why do they seem so scarce here when they are much more common than HKs out at the range?

ToddG
07-16-2012, 10:53 PM
... but I am fully aware of the grip saftey and do not see it as a reliability issue any more on an XDM than a 1911.

I can rack the slide of a 1911 to load my gun or clear a malfunction, for example, without having to depress the grip safety. On the XD series guns, the slide is locked unless the grip safety is pressed in. That's a major difference and one that has shown to have implications when performing certain one handed manipulations (e.g., dealing with injuries to the hand).

While they make up a relatively small percentage of the guns I see in classes, many of the XDs I've seen come through have experienced problems. Certainly some have run fine (and certainly I've seen Glocks, M&Ps, and HKs stumble) but by and large they don't seem to be as reliable as their name brand competition. That's also been my casual (and admittedly unscientific) observation at the range when practicing, as well as the experience of some serious competitive shooters who dabbled with the XD briefly before abandoning it.

Firestickfilms
07-16-2012, 11:14 PM
Interesting. Well that begs the question, although I've begun some compettitve pistol shooting and am interested in taking some classes and becoming proficent, my wife is only interested in a gun she shoots well and feels confident she can hit her target with. So far she has loved the accuracy of the Sig in SA but she doesn't feel confident with the DA pull and she has no interest in training (or strenghening) to be proficient. Add to that that she hates Glocks, was "meh" about the M&P and my P30 (although loves my HK45) and I'm in a quandry. I'm not going to get her to the range without a pistol she has confidence in, is the XDM so flawed that it shouldn't be considered for this role? Should I push her towards a Walther PPQ or a USP LEM (closest thing to a 9mm HK45).

I should also mention we live in CA so I have to jump through many (all legal) hoops to get the XDM and PPQ here.

GJM
07-16-2012, 11:17 PM
Here is an interesting question for typical XD buyers -- how many buy the pistol to get the grip safety, how many buy it in spite of the grip safety, and how many buy it without even knowing it has a grip safety? My point was this "Navy Seal" was clueless that the XD even had a grip safety. I tried to show him how the grip safety works, so he could determine whether it liked it or not. I am a guy that has to pin every 1911 grip safety, so I will not be buying a plastic pistol with a grip safety.

DocGKR
07-16-2012, 11:21 PM
Firestickfilms--How much training does your wife have? That would be far more important than just about anything else--especially before purchasing a pistol if she does not really have enough knowledge to know exactly what will work best for her.

Firestickfilms
07-16-2012, 11:53 PM
Professional (class) training, none, but we've been shooting together for a few years and she is actually a pretty natural shot. I probably could get her to take a intermediate class eventually, but I won't get her to practice at all if I force a gun on her she doesn't feel comfortable with. I'm a gun nerd, I've been competing in precision rife for a few years and have just started to consider training and competing in pistol and for me reliability, accuracy and speed mean enough that I've chosen the HK LEM platform. For her she needs confidence in what she shoots "out of the box" as it were. We've both decided DA/SA is a no go for the reasons mentioned previously.

So far she has shot and eliminated...
Glock 17 & 19
P30 LEM
M&P 9

We had all but settled on an XDM 4.5 but if it's not good to go then we'll keep looking.

DocGKR
07-17-2012, 12:06 AM
If she has no training, how can she eliminate a particular weapon system from consideration--particularly since she has discounted the three best 9mm service handguns currently available?

Firestickfilms
07-17-2012, 01:18 AM
I know this is the pistol "Training" forum so I won't argue that she shouldn't get some, that said just because she doesn't have a Fast coin doesn't mean she doesn't know how to shoot or what fits her hand. I just sat down with her and my 3 HKs and got to the bottom of what she feels works for her with the HK45 and what doesn't with the P30. Mostly it comes down to the trigger, the P30s trigger sits just a bit too far forward for her to get a good purchase with the pad of her finger (even with the slim backstrap). On the HK45 it falls under her finger perfectly, she also noticed the much shorter reset of the HK45 and my USPc. So I think the answer will probably be a 9mm USP or USPc since both the P2K and the P30 have the longer reset and more forward trigger.

There are some local ranges that have the USPs so I should be able to get her some trigger time.
Correct me if I'm wrong in that the P30 and P2000 share the same basic trigger setup Vs. the USP and HK45?

Limey-
07-17-2012, 02:31 AM
I know this is the pistol "Training" forum so I won't argue that she shouldn't get some, that said just because she doesn't have a Fast coin doesn't mean she doesn't know how to shoot or what fits her hand. I just sat down with her and my 3 HKs and got to the bottom of what she feels works for her with the HK45 and what doesn't with the P30. Mostly it comes down to the trigger, the P30s trigger sits just a bit too far forward for her to get a good purchase with the pad of her finger (even with the slim backstrap). On the HK45 it falls under her finger perfectly, she also noticed the much shorter reset of the HK45 and my USPc. So I think the answer will probably be a 9mm USP or USPc since both the P2K and the P30 have the longer reset and more forward trigger.

There are some local ranges that have the USPs so I should be able to get her some trigger time.
Correct me if I'm wrong in that the P30 and P2000 share the same basic trigger setup Vs. the USP and HK45?

Why not try the HK45 compact.

Limey-
07-17-2012, 02:39 AM
I'm giving serious consideration to not opening threads with "1911" in the title anymore. Ironic, considering that's a '66 Colt in a Galco Royal Guard in my avatar...

Tamara...... No kidding, I think most of us who have been around a year or two online could predict the first dozen posts in any 1911 thread nearly verbatim.

ToddG
07-17-2012, 09:31 AM
I'm having a difficult time understanding how the P30 -- which is capable of being configured with a much narrower and shallower grip -- doesn't allow the same reach as an HK45.

Also, I'd humbly suggest that you not take "feel" into consideration too much. There are female LE/mil all over the world who have Gun A Mod 0 issued to them and are told deal with it. They do, often quite successfully. Worrying about whether a perceived "sweet spot" on her finger pad contacts a particular spot on the trigger, for example, is getting way ahead of the horse.

I'd instead suggest first making a list of guns that you and she have confidence in from a functionality standpoint. Then have her actually shoot a box or two of ammo through each one. Anything that doesn't work in her hands gets rejected. From among the rest, she should pick the one she likes best. Once she's picked the gun, she should practice with it. Take a class, practice with you, practice on her own, whatever... but she needs to run the gun as if it was the only gun she had rather than trying to compare it to others and rethinking her selection.

Corlissimo
07-17-2012, 09:53 AM
Here is an interesting question for typical XD buyers -- how many buy the pistol to get the grip safety, how many buy it in spite of the grip safety, and how many buy it without even knowing it has a grip safety? My point was this "Navy Seal" was clueless that the XD even had a grip safety. I tried to show him how the grip safety works, so he could determine whether it liked it or not. I am a guy that has to pin every 1911 grip safety, so I will not be buying a plastic pistol with a grip safety.

When I bought my XD the grip safety was a feature on my PROs list. Since it was my first pistol, the extra safety was attractive and I have used it from the beginning when re-holstering, by simply placing my thumb on the striker indicator thus releasing the safety, and preventing trigger movement.

After a couple years of use however, I made the decision to move away from it (XDs) in favor of the HK DA/SA platform. For me, the XD was a great stepping stone to where I am now, especially as I work on AIWB and riding the hammer while holstering. I shot it quite well and never had any issues using it, but I also had never pushed myself to use skill sets which I now know to be much more important than I once thought they were.

I credit the fine folks here at P-F.com for helping me gain truly valuable information to make an informed decision when it was time to "grow". I guess it's like the old cliche: Friends don't let friends keep shooting mediocre platforms... But they can be useful at times. :)

--
Sent from my personal Droid. Please excuse any typos, my Droid's kinda stupid. (_)

Firestickfilms
07-17-2012, 01:08 PM
I'm having a difficult time understanding how the P30 -- which is capable of being configured with a much narrower and shallower grip -- doesn't allow the same reach as an HK45.

I had the same reaction, but there is something about the dimentions of the P30 that make it less ergonomic than the 45. Even though when I put one on top of the other the triggers seem to line up when we grip each weapon there is a subtle but real difference on where the finger lands. I think it has to do with the palm swell and height of the grip. I can reach both fine myself and it doesn't bother me but for her it just doesn't work.



Also, I'd humbly suggest that you not take "feel" into consideration too much. There are female LE/mil all over the world who have Gun A Mod 0 issued to them and are told deal with it. They do, often quite successfully. Worrying about whether a perceived "sweet spot" on her finger pad contacts a particular spot on the trigger, for example, is getting way ahead of the horse.

For a police office with a comitment to a career that's reasonable. I'm trying to get her to become engaged in the sport and learn to enjoy training so she can become proficient. If I stick my P30 in her hand and say "deal with it" she'll just stay home when I go to the range.



I'd instead suggest first making a list of guns that you and she have confidence in from a functionality standpoint. Then have her actually shoot a box or two of ammo through each one. Anything that doesn't work in her hands gets rejected. From among the rest, she should pick the one she likes best.

This is essentially what we did 2 years ago when we bought her the P226. She was quite fond of the gun, shot it well, and felt comfortable with it. However she would/could not learn the DA pull and since there is no saftey for condition 1 we felt it was a bad choice for her.

Now having excluded the XD/XDM platform that pretty much leaves us with only one manufacturer that meets the above criteria. HK. However the P30 doesn't make the cut for the reasons mentioned above. The good news is she could care less about a blocky slide or a modern look as long as it feels right and shoots to point of aim. We'll try a USP, USPc and a P2000 LEM.



Once she's picked the gun, she should practice with it. Take a class, practice with you, practice on her own, whatever... but she needs to run the gun as if it was the only gun she had rather than trying to compare it to others and rethinking her selection.

This is where I'm trying to get her to go. Once she's comfortable she'll stick with the gun for the long haul. As with many relationships though I'll get much farther with the carrot than the stick.

ToddG
07-17-2012, 01:14 PM
For a police office with a comitment to a career that's reasonable. I'm trying to get her to become engaged in the sport and learn to enjoy training so she can become proficient. If I stick my P30 in her hand and say "deal with it" she'll just stay home when I go to the range.

I wouldn't say "deal with it." I'd say, "Don't worry about it!" If it's really coming down to exactly where on her trigger finger she contacts the gun, IMHO she's getting lost in a very tiny and possibly unimportant detail. Whoever put the idea in her head that there was a universally correct trigger finger location was wrong. Better to disabuse her of that idea as early as possible regardless of what gun she decides to pick up.

DocGKR
07-17-2012, 02:45 PM
"I think it has to do with the palm swell and height of the grip. "

Dremel Tool.......

If trigger finger position is the issue, how about a high quality LW 9mm 1911--ToddG seems to be proving a good one can work well.

Firestickfilms
07-17-2012, 03:15 PM
I recently aquired my first 1911, a Les Baer, after shooting mostly HKs for the last 3 years. I have to say I've quite enjoyed the experience. I even took 3rd place in the 1911 class at a local action pistol match the first time I shot it.
It's not a gun I'm quite ready to trust my life to (although the gun has run 2000+ rounds without a single hiccup) it has more to do with my personal comfort. That said it hasn't taken me long to appreciate why there are so many "1911 people" in the community, there is certainly no gun I'm more accurate with in slow fire.

Firestickfilms
07-17-2012, 03:20 PM
I was thinking of this myself, she really likes my Les Baer 1911, and since I'm in Cali 10 rounds is max anyway.
My only concern would be weight, I'll have to see if I can find a 9mm 1911 around she can try.

DocGKR
07-17-2012, 03:31 PM
Given the problems the FBI and others have had with Les Baer 1911's, she might want to look at other more proven options.

For example, a LW version of this, perhaps with a short M1911A1 trigger: http://pistol-training.com/archives/6942...

fuse
07-17-2012, 04:34 PM
Edit, answered already

Savage Hands
07-17-2012, 04:45 PM
Given the problems the FBI and others have had with Les Baer 1911's, she might want to look at other more proven options.

For example, a LW version of this, perhaps with a short M1911A1 trigger: http://pistol-training.com/archives/6942...


No offense Doc, but the problem with those particular 1911's was that they were based on Para-Ordnance P14-45 double stack turds that Les was expected to polish to perfection. We know how that went... :cool:

Rappahannock
07-17-2012, 04:52 PM
In wading through this thread I was pleased to find a mention of the Walther P99. Despite all the recent press and attention given to the PPQ, the P99 is still very much with us and available from Walther. Personally, I find this superior to the PPQ (I own both), and the fact it is available in a compact version is just icing on the cake.

It seems like a long shot, so to speak, but I'd love to see some comparative studies and experiences using this fine design vs. some more recent contenders. The Walther P99 is a very fine weapon and in light of the OP's initial question, I would put it up against the P30, the Glock and the M&P.

fuse
07-17-2012, 05:30 PM
I was thinking of this myself, she really likes my Les Baer 1911, and since I'm in Cali 10 rounds is max anyway.
My only concern would be weight, I'll have to see if I can find a 9mm 1911 around she can try.

Pretty sure nearly every new shooter will pick a 9mm 1911 vs. any modern plastic.

ToddG
07-17-2012, 05:35 PM
Pretty sure nearly every new shooter will pick a 9mm 1911 vs. any modern plastic.

The 1911 is far bigger, far heavier, has more safeties to contend with, lower capacity, and unless the buyer goes for a cheap brand it will also be more expensive. Even Kimber and Smith 9mm 1911s go for over a grand.

JV_
07-17-2012, 05:37 PM
Pretty sure nearly every new shooter will pick a 9mm 1911 vs. any modern plastic.A lot of people buy plastic guns because they watched some stupid youtube video of a guy dragging it behind his truck, then throwing it in a lake, and shooting a mag through it.

Or because they heard some story about a super elite guy that recommends them.

TCinVA
07-17-2012, 05:41 PM
What he said.

Most people in the market for a handgun don't know what they don't know. I certainly didn't...which is why I bought like all of them at one point or another. It took time, experience, and making a lot of mistakes to figure some of the important lessons out. I'm a particularly bad student, it turns out...

JAD
07-17-2012, 08:46 PM
The 1911 is far bigger, far heavier, has more safeties to contend with, lower capacity, and unless the buyer goes for a cheap brand it will also be more expensive. Even Kimber and Smith 9mm 1911s go for over a grand.

I won't pretend they're easy to come by, but an lwc or CCO gives up only capacity; thumb safeties are a good thing, and 1911s are much kinder to people who wear 's' size gloves. If money isn't a real concern a Californian could do a lot worse if that's what you dig.

fuse
07-17-2012, 09:48 PM
Pretty sure nearly every new shooter will pick a 9mm 1911 vs. any modern plastic.

I did not explain myself well.

What I meant was, say you take a new shooter to the range. You give him or her an M&P, a Glock, an LEM HK, a sig, and a 1911 in 9mm, with 20 rounds for each gun, I believe 95% will choose the 1911.

Not saying it's the right choice (it isn't) but for a noob shooting slow for the first time, that single action trigger will seem to be "the best" and they'll probably shoot it the best, too. Since its heavy, it will seem to have less recoil vs these plastic guns that damn near jump out of his/her hands. How could anyone possibly shoot these plastic things fast, much less accurately, he/she will think.

Letting a new shooter who's trying to decide on a gun shoot a 9mm 1911 is a dangerous idea.

BWT
07-17-2012, 09:52 PM
What I hated about 1911's was, honestly, with almost all of them, it seems to depend on who showed up for work that day a lot more from gun to gun.

I have a Dan Wesson CBOB and my Father has one, there is literally, massive difference in the quality.

I also think that some of the best advice I've ever heard is to download the magazines one round and avoid 10-rounders all together (in .45 ACP) to increase reliability.

My first handgun was a 1911, I would not advise one.

IMHO, you don't need to have an intricate knowledge of how to maintain something that your life may depend on like a gun, to use one. I think 1911's fall in that category.

I spent a ton more money than I feasibly needed to, deal with headaches/issues I shouldn't, and couldn't afford to feed it regularly enough to be good with it. It just wasn't a good buy.

That being said, some have to learn the hard way, and some follow the path commonly followed. I'm usually the latter, I just thought I knew better.

Firestickfilms
07-17-2012, 09:56 PM
Any opinions of an STI ranger II in 9mm?
I stil think I want her to have a poly 9mm but another 1911 could be justified too.

Limey-
07-18-2012, 02:50 AM
Any opinions of an STI ranger II in 9mm?
I stil think I want her to have a poly 9mm but another 1911 could be justified too.

I think its not a terrible choice and the old wilson KZ 9mm is a high cap polymer 1911 that actually works pretty well. That said a Glock 19 Gen 3 or Later 4 or an HK p30 are superior choices for an alround gun that does range and protection duty. Go to a large range and rent whatever she likes the look of and try and stay out of that process yourself.;)

Gary1911A1
07-18-2012, 09:35 AM
A Springfield EMP in 9MM? It's around a 1,000 at Buds, has a smaller grip, a great trigger, light weight and excellent CS from Springfield. True it doesn't hold as much ammo as a Glock 19, but it's easy to reload a loaded magazine. Just a thought as I admit being bias.

JHC
07-18-2012, 09:37 AM
Any opinions of an STI ranger II in 9mm?
I stil think I want her to have a poly 9mm but another 1911 could be justified too.

For a few dollars more . . . . http://wilsoncombat.com/new/handgun-spec-ops-9.asp

Cecil Burch
07-18-2012, 12:01 PM
Just out of curiosity, does anyone have really good experience with these, German or Exeter (I believe they switched to the eternal extractor and added an LCI in Exeter). They seem to be great bargains according to the less focused forums about, and they do feel like they have potential at the LGS (not that you can tell much without putting it to real use). If they turn out to not have any major skeletons in the closet they may be something to recommend to budget minded individuals to keep them out of taurus land or other such mistakes waiting to happen, keeping in mind the attention and effort the DA/SA requires to utilize.

Sorry I'm late on this.

I have been running my Exeter 2022 9MM for a while now. It has been through an ECQC, and has in excess of 5,000 rds through it.

I love mine. Great shooter. The only stoppages I have had were 5 during ECQC with Russian Brown Bear ammo and the mags getting coated with AZ dust that gummed up the follower and spring (during ECQC they were being dumped in the dirt). Interestingly enough, I had no stoppages under the same circumstances with the Mecgar 17rd. teflon coated mags. They fed flawlessly.

It's a terrific gun.

JAD
07-18-2012, 12:02 PM
Or, if you really love her:
http://wilsoncombat.com/new/handgun-ms-sentinel.asp

Seriously, the EMP gets excellent reviews but I haven't seen one "run hard," as we like to say around here. For a small-handed person who's restricted to 10 rounds it makes a lot of sense as an EDC, as does the Kahr series of pistols. These get called 'hobbyist' guns a lot, whatever that might mean to you.

Firestickfilms
07-18-2012, 03:55 PM
The spec-ops is really interesting but I have a feeling she'd have a hard time getting it out of my hand.
My father has an EMP she can try, I'll have to borrow it for a range trip.

David Armstrong
07-18-2012, 11:45 PM
I did not explain myself well.

What I meant was, say you take a new shooter to the range. You give him or her an M&P, a Glock, an LEM HK, a sig, and a 1911 in 9mm, with 20 rounds for each gun, I believe 95% will choose the 1911.

Not saying it's the right choice (it isn't) but for a noob shooting slow for the first time, that single action trigger will seem to be "the best" and they'll probably shoot it the best, too. Since its heavy, it will seem to have less recoil vs these plastic guns that damn near jump out of his/her hands. How could anyone possibly shoot these plastic things fast, much less accurately, he/she will think.

Letting a new shooter who's trying to decide on a gun shoot a 9mm 1911 is a dangerous idea.
Can't speak for others, but very few of my new shooters choose the 1911. In fact, it is probably the least popular of the full-size autos I let students work with in their first classes. The Sig 225s are very popular, as are the 9mm Glocks.

MikeO
07-19-2012, 04:46 PM
Check this out:
http://10-8performance.blogspot.com/2012/06/s-m-barrels.html

FWIW, my sister and I both have "new" M&P9s that are accurate, and the date on the test fired case is 11-17-2011.

Only a few hundred rounds through each so far, but no problems at all.

YVK
07-19-2012, 11:56 PM
FWIW, my sister and I both have "new" M&P9s that are accurate, and the date on the test fired case is 11-17-2011.

Only a few hundred rounds through each so far, but no problems at all.

That's about the date mine is test-fired, and it was crap before barrel replacement. It is slightly better than crap after.

Tamara
07-21-2012, 03:22 PM
FWIW, my sister and I both have "new" M&P9s that are accurate, and the date on the test fired case is 11-17-2011.

Only a few hundred rounds through each so far, but no problems at all.

What kind of groups is it shooting benched at 25, out of curiosity?

GJM
07-21-2012, 04:16 PM
What kind of groups is it shooting benched at 25, out of curiosity?

Hey, I thought that was MY line.

Up1911Fan
07-21-2012, 07:03 PM
Benched my new to me (2011) M&P9 at 25 yards for the first time today. Mind you i've never done much bench resting or a lot of 25 yard shooting for that matter. Average for 5, 5 shot group's with 115gr Federal Champion ( only ammo I had with me, still have a ton of it stocked up bought on sale) was 5 1/4" ( best 3 shot's averaged 1.75"). Granted it was only 5 group's with one type of ammo. FWIW I used a B8 repair center and aimed with a CTC Lasergrip with a sandbag support.

MikeO
07-22-2012, 03:19 PM
What kind of groups is it shooting benched at 25, out of curiosity?

We aren't as young as we used to be, don't try as hard or care as much... we can do 4 - 5, so they are better than that in good hands w younger eyes who care.

If they were noticeably worse than our other stuff we would have noticed by now, and we haven't. Not any harder to hit a soda can at 25 offhand for example...

Savage Hands
07-22-2012, 03:32 PM
We aren't as young as we used to be, don't try as hard or care as much... we can do 4 - 5, so they are better than that in good hands w younger eyes who care.

If they were noticeably worse than our other stuff we would have noticed by now, and we haven't. Not any harder to hit a soda can at 25 offhand for example...


The problem is that the M&P's precision is questionable past 15 yards and w/o measured results one person calling them accurate/precise doesn't give an accurate representation for others as everybody's definition varies.

MikeO
07-22-2012, 03:56 PM
Some new M&Ps are "accurate", and some new Glocks are "reliable". Roll your dice?

If I can do 4 at 25 w them, these are not dogs. Can't speak for other guns.

So don't buy a new Glock or a new M&P until you haven't heard about any problems for a few years?

I'm just not letting this stuff drive me crazy anymore...

Tamara
07-22-2012, 04:12 PM
We aren't as young as we used to be, don't try as hard or care as much... we can do 4 - 5, so they are better than that in good hands w younger eyes who care.

If they were noticeably worse than our other stuff we would have noticed by now, and we haven't. Not any harder to hit a soda can at 25 offhand for example...

I'm sorry, I was looking for data. I understand that shooting groups from a bench is like watching paint dry. Never mind, then; carry on.

MikeO
07-22-2012, 04:17 PM
I'm sorry, I was looking for data. I understand that shooting groups from a bench is like watching paint dry. Never mind, then; carry on.

I'll lend mine to a good shot who likes to do that that and get back to you.

Duramax
07-23-2012, 08:36 PM
Hello all! Looking for some help with a purchase of a new handgun. First off I am aware some gun ranges offer rental guns to shoot and honestly that would be perfect for me....however I live in a somewhat smaller town and have no such thing here. Just outdoor ranges that do not offer rentals. So I'm trying to do as much research as possible and getting as many testimonials as I can. I'm looking for a 9mm and from what I've read so far I'm leaning towards either a S&W M&P Model 9 or the Springfield XD tactical 9mm. Does anybody have any testimonials or comparisons based on personal experience on either of these handguns? Also I'm keeping my mind open so any other recommendations for a good 9mm will be considered. Thank you for in advance!

ToddG
07-23-2012, 08:39 PM
Suggest you start here:
P30? Glock? M&P? What to do? (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4697-P30-Glock-M-amp-P-What-to-do)

Bowman_15
07-24-2012, 11:39 AM
Hello everyone,
I've been a reader of this forum for a while now trying to soak up as much information as possible.

I have recently applied for my concealed carry license and am trying to decide which firearm would be right for me.
First some information about me. I'm roughly 6'2" and 170 pounds and am left hand dominant. I am looking at purchasing a 9mm pistol and carrying IWB.
I've handled numerous pistols and really enjoy the features of the m&p9c and it's ambidextrous controls. I've also handled the beretta nano and enjoyed it's small size. This is where I am having trouble with decisions on which pistol and am hoping for help from the great people of this forum.
My main issue I'm having is concealability seeing as I have no experience in this area. Is the nano that much easier to conceal in comparison to the m&p? I like that I can have a full grip with the m&p and it's higher capacity but I also want a gun that isn't difficult to carry or conceal. So I suppose my question is on the concealability of these pistols and your opinions on each as well. Any advice or other recommendations of pistols to look at is more than welcome as well. Any help you can provide would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

ford.304
07-24-2012, 11:47 AM
With a decent holster, you should be able to conceal any "compact" pistol fine IWB with minor choices in clothing. M&P compact is a fine choice. A Glock 17 would also be a fine choice.

Pick one, take a training course or two, and order a case of ammo online and shoot it up to practice. For a first gun, the most important thing to realize is that almost any knowledge you use to make a decision now will be infinitely less knowledge than you will have after running the gun for a year or two. That is, how the grip feels, whether it makes you shoot better, whether you can conceal it well with your body type and carry style - no matter how much you read ahead of time, you really can't know how to evaluate until you have your own experience.

So get something that is proven and popular, conceals ok, and that you can easily run in local shooting games or classes. Like a Glock or an M&P.

What you don't want to do is buy something now that you can tuck into your belt a little bit easier, but that will be a bear to take to a class to really learn how to shoot.

Kyle Reese
07-24-2012, 11:54 AM
Hello everyone,
I've been a reader of this forum for a while now trying to soak up as much information as possible.

I have recently applied for my concealed carry license and am trying to decide which firearm would be right for me.
First some information about me. I'm roughly 6'2" and 170 pounds and am left hand dominant. I am looking at purchasing a 9mm pistol and carrying IWB.
I've handled numerous pistols and really enjoy the features of the m&p9c and it's ambidextrous controls. I've also handled the beretta nano and enjoyed it's small size. This is where I am having trouble with decisions on which pistol and am hoping for help from the great people of this forum.
My main issue I'm having is concealability seeing as I have no experience in this area. Is the nano that much easier to conceal in comparison to the m&p? I like that I can have a full grip with the m&p and it's higher capacity but I also want a gun that isn't difficult to carry or conceal. So I suppose my question is on the concealability of these pistols and your opinions on each as well. Any advice or other recommendations of pistols to look at is more than welcome as well. Any help you can provide would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

Hello, and welcome to our forum! :)

I'm unsure of your level of professional training or background, so please bear with me. :)

Given your size/build, it is entirely possible to effectively conceal a full sized 9mm handgun, provided you are judicious in holster and clothing selection.
A Glock 17. M&P 9, P30 and PPQ are are very concealable.

I've owned several M&P 9 full sized handguns, as well as an M&P 9C, and have had no problem effectively concealing the full sized VS the compact carrying OWB, IWB and AIWB (full size only).

Sheep Have Wool
07-24-2012, 11:58 AM
There's quite a bit of collective wisdom in this thread here (http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4697-P30-Glock-M-amp-P-What-to-do).

A new shooter myself, I ended up with an H&K P30. Since we've had a number of these threads lately, a "So You Want to Buy a Pistol" FAQ might be beneficial. I know I wish there had been one when I got started that condensed the popular choices down.

YVK
07-24-2012, 12:02 PM
My main issue I'm having is concealability seeing as I have no experience in this area.
.

Other than concealment issues, what experience do you have in this area? It is hard to give any advice without knowing the point of reference, i.e. if this is just a hardware question from somebody proficient in handling and shooting pistols, or you're totally new to all this. The responses will be different depending on the above.

P.S. Multi-tasking affects my typing speed. FredM already alluded to this.

JHC
07-24-2012, 12:03 PM
My approach to one 1st pistol for CCW purposes is to err on the SMALL side because it will be easier to learn how to carry it all the time. 1st rule - have a gun.

Top choices: S&W Shield, G26, HK2000 compact, Walther PPS, M&PC come first to mind. The G26 is prob the least lefty friendly.

I'm about 3 inches shorter than you and nearly the same weight. I carry a G26 or G19. It's true one can carry a full size gun very well but it takes more effort in clothing selection in addition to really good IWB holsters.

I believe you'll be carrying every day sooner with the smaller range of pistols. With experience, you go up in size. Safer, sooner.

Bowman_15
07-24-2012, 12:22 PM
In response to training and experience, it's safe to assume I've had no formal training. I have grown up around guns my entire life and and very familiar with rifles. I just recently turned 21 and purchased a ruger mark III and have been using it to familiarize myself with pistols. I've shot a few thousand rounds through it so far. If anyone knows of places to train in arkansas I'd love to hear about them. I am a college student though and finances are tight at the moment.

I am looking at purchasing a high noon holster for this weapon, specifically the alter ego. Any opinions on this is welcome as well.

Kyle Reese
07-24-2012, 12:37 PM
This post is intended as a point of reference for persons who are

-New to firearms ownership.

-New to lawful concealed carry of a handgun, and looking for information pertaining to handgun/holster/accessory selection.

-Looking to purchase their first handgun.

-Asking for advice / relevant information pertaining to any of the above.

YVK
07-24-2012, 12:38 PM
In response to training and experience, it's safe to assume I've had no formal training. I have grown up around guns my entire life and and very familiar with rifles. I just recently turned 21 and purchased a ruger mark III and have been using it to familiarize myself with pistols. I've shot a few thousand rounds through it so far. If anyone knows of places to train in arkansas I'd love to hear about them. I am a college student though and finances are tight at the moment.

I am looking at purchasing a high noon holster for this weapon, specifically the alter ego. Any opinions on this is welcome as well.

Smaller guns are almost always harder to shoot than larger ones, and often are harder to manipulate. This is not cut and dry rule, but it is very often the case. Since you've read this site for awhile, you'd know that majority of members here put proficiency over specific hardware choices. Therefore the answer is what kind of proficiency you're aspiring to achieve. If you want to get to the basic levels of being safe and competent, then smaller gun is fine (MPc would be my second choice after Walther PPS). If you'd prefer to push yourself a bit further, you'll likely handicap yourself with a small gun; Gen3 G19 or 17 would be my choice in this case.

tservice
01-15-2013, 12:02 PM
I am looking to pick up a 9mm. I can not afford a Glock. So I have found a couple that I think will be worth having.
Ruger P95 349.99
Smith & Wesson SD9VE 299.99
Out of the 2, which one do you think is the better. This will be my primary CC, I have a Taurus tcp 738 .380 for my bug.

WDW
01-15-2013, 12:04 PM
Sell the Taurus & get a used G19

tservice
01-15-2013, 12:06 PM
I wish to keep the Taurus.

breakingtime91
01-15-2013, 12:14 PM
Your 380 won't end up with a very long service life if you train with it the way you should. Trade it and use the money towards a used glock 19 as mentioned or try to trade it plus a little cash and get a ruger LCP. Then save the money for a extra month or two and grab either a glock or m&p (used if you can find one).