Keto and Paleo Diet

[RONK]

Hi,does anyone have any experience with either one or both these diets?Thanks as always.

[4given]

Hi,does anyone have any experience with either one or both these diets?Thanks as always.

I have lost 80 lbs following a "keto" style diet plan.

[peterb]

https://thepaleodiet.com/

Over time my eating has become more paleo-ish. Some of that is age.
Minimal simple sugars and simple carbs unless during exercise, minimal non-fermented dairy, minimal wheat, other grains small amounts of whole grains, lots of fruit and veg, good protein, healthy fats, no crap.

I don’t think of it as a “diet”. It seems like a reasonable way to eat good food.

[RJ]

Yes. Since mid-June 2020, I've eliminated sugar in all forms, with an emphasis on low carb, moderate fat, and high protein. Strength/Resistance training 30 min, and 20 min of cardio, 3 to 5 times a week.

I've lost about 30lbs and currently in size 32 pants. My waist to height ratio is 52%. My goal is to try and get to a waist to height ratio of 50% and see where my weight is. Right now just over 180.

73151

[RONK]

That's great!Can you you tell us/me more about it,please?

[Duces Tecum]

Hi,does anyone have any experience with either one or both these diets?Thanks as always.

Like a lot of guys, I've been successful with both but the Paleo proved easier (for me) to follow long term. Problem is that the body adapts to any diet over time, and that's what I think makes all diets eventually fail. What has worked the best (again, for me) is 18 hr intermittent fasting combined with Paleo. Add in a minimalist exercise program and wonderful things seem to happen almost by themselves.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I do what I'd call "lazy keto" in which I generally don't have carbs, but occasionally I do (and when I do I'll have whatever I feel like).

From my peak weight I'm down about 45 lbs over 18-20 months. I've gone in bursts of less or more effort but have now just sort of stabilized on a diet that's still cutting a bit, but fairly slowly. But it's basically zero effort.

It's basically: I eat no breakfast, I have trail mix for lunch almost every day, and then I have a keto dinner.

[octagon]

I lost 66 lbs on simple or lazy keto starting in Oct 2018 and kept it off since except for a couple lbs gain during covid. I just counted carbs only and stayed 20grams net or 40 grams total. After 6 weeks I had to stop BP mess as my BP was too low and I was getting dizzy standing up from sitting. Haven't been high since and regularly am 103 over 66. Off all meds Rx and over the counter and used to need allergy antacids and BP. I also started intermittent fasting about 2 months into it and now just eat lunch at noon and dinner around 4 for 20and4 IF. It was tough at times but mostly early on giving up sugar and carbs . Now I don't need to count anything as it comes second nature. Look at YT for Dr berg, Dr Boz and Dr Eric Westman from Adapt out of NC University. All easy to follow whole natural food. I was heavy all my life outside military service and this lifestyle not diet has changed my life so much I won't go back to anything else. You can do paleo style,vegetarian or even vegan keto or lazy,dirty or true keto as you prefer or lifestyle depending. I spent a month in israel,jotdan and Germany without issues so it works traveling too.

[MGW]

Like a lot of guys, I've been successful with both but the Paleo proved easier (for me) to follow long term. Problem is that the body adapts to any diet over time, and that's what I think makes all diets eventually fail. What has worked the best (again, for me) is 18 hr intermittent fasting combined with Paleo. Add in a minimalist exercise program and wonderful things seem to happen almost by themselves.

This is basically what I do. I have followed something very similar for roughly three years now. But being on my own now I've realized my diet wasn't as good as I thought it was. I'm down almost 25 pounds since around Thanksgiving. Anyone that knows me will tell you I didn't have 25 pounds to lose but I lost it anyway.

I rarely eat breakfast except for coffee. When I do eat breakfast it's because the workout the day before has me drained and I feel like I need the extra energy. When I do eat it's a protein-heavy meal. Lunch is generally a salad with some protein mixed in. My current favorites are lemon pepper tuna, hardboiled eggs, or rotisserie chicken from the local mart. Dinner is whatever I have time to make which is usually chicken or steak and a vegetable. I don't buy any junk food. No chips, ice cream, candy, or anything like that. I don't consume dairy. I rarely eat bread, potatoes, cereal, etc. If I feel like I need carbs I'll eat some rice or sweet potatoes. I eat an apple or two almost every day. I've also started eating half an avocado most days.

It's a super simple diet that I could follow for the rest of my life. I don't eat this way to stay thin. I eat this way because I feel better when I do. My body hates highly processed carbs, sugar, and dairy so I don't eat them.

If I feel like I need extra calories I'll drink a protein shake or mix cold brew coffee and protein powder together for an afternoon energy boost. I don't drink every day but I'm not afraid to drink a couple of beers in the evenings. I still enjoy a glass or two of bourbon now and then.

It's amazing how good my diet became when I started buying my own groceries and cooking my own meals again.

Oh, most Saturday's I go to a local restaurant and eat a salad, ribeye, sweet potato with lots of butter, and a couple of beers or a glass of bourbon. I really look forward to that meal because it tastes really good and I'm not cooking it.

[Yung]

Works well combined with a little bit of intermittent fasting.

[RJ]

Yes. Since mid-June 2020, I've eliminated sugar in all forms, with an emphasis on low carb, moderate fat, and high protein. Strength/Resistance training 30 min, and 20 min of cardio, 3 to 5 times a week.


In longer form:

Did research on insulin resistance and the body's adaptation to storing fat, both body and visceral fat. Learned that America's obesity epidemic started in the 70s and was due almost entirely to a new emphasis by the Government on the "Food Pyramid" and food makers pushing highly processed wheat and corn, with high fructose corn syrup and vegetable oils. Learned combining fat and carbs (Pizza, Doughnuts, Bagels, etc) causes an almost crack-like addiction which lead to cycle after cycle of insulin spikes, only to precipitate hunger and need for more carbs within 2 hours. Eating multiple small meals/snacks a day keeps insulin levels high, and does not address the root cause of hunger. The body becomes insulin resistant, and can't process the glucose except by storing it in new and existing Adipocytes, causing more fat deposits and enlarging the deposits you carry normally.

All that changed for me last June, as I tried to put that into practice.

I realized my diet sucked. I stopped eating all added carbs; no cookies, pizza, bagels, and bread, and avoided most processed foods including so-called "low carb" Atkins meal trays ("filled with healthy sugar alcohols!" /sarc). Stopped drinking alcohol.

I started tracking everything I ate in MyFitnessPal. Specifically, foods that appear frequently in my diet log include:

- MCT oil
- Kerrygold unsalted butter
- Apple Cider Vinegar
- Lemon Juice
- Magnesium/Potassium supplement
- Turmeric
- Omega 3
- Avocado
- Eggs
- Bacon
- Blackened Salmon
- Grilled Chicken
- Bacon
- Steak (Filet/Ribeye)
- Hamburger
- Fresh strawberries or Blueberry's
- Bacon
- Cream cheese
- Green Tea
- Balsamic

My macro goals are 15% carb, 35% protein and 50% carb, on a net 1,700 cal a day.

Joined the gym at the apartment complex last year, and initiated a strength routine 3 days a week, these days, 5 days a week. Added 20" of cardio at the end to get my heart rate up.

I also started experimenting with Intermittent Fasting. Monday for example I did not eat until 4pm. I had had a steak the day before for Father's day, and a light salad at dinner. I try and do that maybe once a week. Other days I will eat a meal around 11, and another at 4. Some days I'm hungry when I get back from the gym and I will cook breakfast, but not often. I don't graze or snack after dinner like I used to. No more "Atkins Bars" as a pick me up. I don't feel hunger, real hunger, an hour after eating. It's really weird.

I'm currently working on figuring out how best to transition from "diet" mode to "this is how I'm going to eat the rest of my life mode". It's also coincided with a plateau about 180 lbs. I still have some fat to deal with, but I will need to probably continue to up my activity level. This week I started doing 1x a day at the gym, for example.

Hope this helps.

[peterb]

I don't buy any junk food. No chips, ice cream, candy, or anything like that. I don't consume dairy. I rarely eat bread, potatoes, cereal, etc. If I feel like I need carbs I'll eat some rice or sweet potatoes. I eat an apple or two almost every day. I've also started eating half an avocado most days.

It's a super simple diet that I could follow for the rest of my life. I don't eat this way to stay thin. I eat this way because I feel better when I do. My body hates highly processed carbs, sugar, and dairy so I don't eat them.

Yup.

My quick “snack foods” include bagged frozen vegetables. Dump in bowl, zap, splash of olive oil, some interesting seasoning, good to go. Frozen fruits and vegetables(plain, no sauces or syrups) are a reasonable alternative to fresh.

If I want carbs it’s often a microwaved or roasted sweet potato. We usually keep a couple in the fridge for the dogs, and they don’t mind sharing. ;-)

Roasted Brussels sprouts are nothing like the soggy boiled ones you learned to hate.

Since I’m low-sugar at home, I don’t crave sweets when I’m eating out because now most restaurant desserts taste way too sweet.

We need more protein as we age.

It’s not absolute. If someone offers me a really good version of something I don’t normally eat, I’ll probably have a moderate portion and enjoy it.

[Crow Hunter]

I would recommend trying it and seeing if your body "likes" it or not.

In the late 90's I tried the Atkins diet in an effort to help improve my weight lifting. It nearly "kilt me". ;) I was so miserable and felt like I was going to pass out all the time. I would honestly feel like I was drunk at times.

Several years ago after having a DVT and pulmonary embolism with no known cause and nearly dying, I decided that I needed to get healthier.

I stopped eating sweets that weren't fruit, no soda (or Coke's down here:cool:) and reduced my serving sizes on everything. I use a smaller plate, chew my food thoroughly and stop eating when I am NO LONGER HUNGRY, not when I am full. I seldom go to restaurants but when I do, I divide my entree in half and if I am still hungry after finishing the first half, I divide it again and eat that. I seldom eat more than half.

For breakfast I usually eat oatmeal and then midmorning I eat some type of a high protein snack like mixed nuts or something. Lunch I usually eat a PB sandwich and some raisins or a banana or apple (today I ate mustard sardines :cool:). Then for supper whatever my wife cooks (on a small plate). Like last night she made boiled chicken/wild rice/salad wraps with a dash of chipotle. I also only eat when I am really hungry. I don't eat because it is breakfast or lunch. If I am not actually hungry, when I say hungry, I mean stomach growling hungry. (To where dogfood makes my stomach growl). Not just "I could eat". For instance, on a weekend in which I don't really do anything, I will eat breakfast of 1.5 eggs and a couple of biscuits with raw honey and then I usually won't eat anything again until supper because I don't get hungry.

I went from 5'11" 235 lbs to 137 lbs over a little more than a year at between 1-2 lbs a week. This is without doing any exercising other than walking the dogs in the afternoon for 1.5 miles and walking at work.

I have since started lifting weights and I am at 153.4 lbs as of this morning and still wearing the same size pants. I have gained some upper body muscle mass because I can feel my shirts fitting differently. I have had to change my diet and add protein/calories after I workout to gain muscle back.

In my limited experience, no one size diet/exercise plan works for everyone. You will just have to experiment and keep what works and discard what doesn't for you and your particular body/environment.

[peterb]

Ah, the noble sardine! There was a time when they were a common lunch item. Now folks in the break room recoil in horror.

I like the ones in olive oil. I usually keep a few cans in my desk as an alternative to the nutritional wasteland of the vending machine.

[peterb]

Ronk - Is your primary interest weight loss or healthier eating?

On the healthy eating side, it’s interesting to look at the “blue zone” diet guidelines, which are based on studies of areas where people lead unusually long, healthy lives. There’s some overlap with paleo and some differences, such as in the amount of beans vs. meat and eggs.

https://www.bluezones.com/recipes/food-guidelines/

There are a lot of roads to healthier eating. None of them work for everybody. Experiment, pay attention to how your body responds, figure out what works for you.

[UNM1136]

In the other thread I recommended this book (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00UO5H5PE/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00UO5H5PE&linkCode=as2&tag=ratio07-20). I just started re-reading it, and have to once again strongly recommend it...

pat

[4given]

That's great!Can you you tell us/me more about it,please?

Ronk what I did was not strict Keto. I just kept my carbs under 40 and my calories 1800 or less per day. I ate mostly meat, green vegetables, cauliflower, cheese, lo carb nuts like almonds. No sugar, grains, potatoes, fruit (except berries now and again.)

For me, Lo carb and Keto did not work for me until I paid attention to my calorie intake. The lo carb aspect helps keep my hunger under control.

[UNM1136]

Ah, the noble sardine! There was a time when they were a common lunch item. Now folks in the break room recoil in horror.

I like the ones in olive oil. I usually keep a few cans in my desk as an alternative to the nutritional wasteland of the vending machine.

Alton Brown on his Good Eats Episode "Never Say Diet" extolled the benefits of smoked bristlings, AKA sardines. I keep several cans on hand of the whole ones in olive oil. The benefits of salmon, with a ton of absorbable calcium from the bones, but portable, especially with my EDC stainless steel chopsticks. He also made sardine topped avacado toast, with shallots, coarse salt (more for texture than flavor. I use Hawaiian black volcanic salt) and a splash of sherry vinegar. I like it on toast, tortillas, lavash, and if you are going grain free you can look up "sweet potato toast" online and make them, or I can go to my local hippiemart and pick up a bag of these (https://www.instacart.com/products/19477688-caulipower-sweet-potatoasts-bread-replacement-16-oz) which have little chance of walking out of the breakroom freezer at work and can be popped in a standard toaster like an eggo to thaw, reheat, and brown up all at the same time... Even lettuce wraps work with this avacado toast with sardines formula. Good fats, protien, fiber, lots of micro nutrients, filling and very tasty.

ETA: I don't usually do the whole drain the sardines, brush the bread, make a vinagrette approach, unless I am making it for the wife. Literally toast, avacado, sardines, shallots, salt, and a drizzle of oil from the sardine can and a splash of sherry (or champagne, or balsalmic) vinegar. I generally eat it with a fork, and let the bread soak up the oil and vinegar.

Just learn from my mistake. I was somewhere, doing something and I needed to eat, so I grabbed my EDC bag and pulled out my trusty sardines in olive oil. Opened it and set it on the trunk of my car as I dug out my chopsticks. When I cracked the can open some of the oil dribbled out and was on the bottom of the can. I ate and wiped up the oil spill, but within the 10 minutes it took me to eat and clean up the oil attacked the clear coat and left small section of the trunk that attracts dirt like you would not and it will not come out. You can clean ot up, but still see the pattern in the clear coat and it gets dirtier in that little spot faster than the surrounding paint on the trunk.

pat

[Shotgun]

smoked bristlings, AKA sardines.

I have never had a sardine. Do you just eat them right out of tin can, or do you cook/prepare them somehow?

[peterb]

I have never had a sardine. Do you just eat them right out of tin can, or do you cook/prepare them somehow?

All the sardines I’ve seen are cooked and ready to eat from the can. As stated above, you can heat and season to taste.

Tinned smoked “kippered” herring are a close relative, traditionally eaten for breakfast in the U.K.

[Shotgun]

All the sardines I’ve seen are cooked and ready to eat from the can. As stated above, you can heat and season to taste.

What brand/style are you eating? I just watched a YouTube video and nearly gagged. I in no way mean to be insulting. There's just not a lot of sardine eating out in West Texas where I grew up. It looks like it should be great for a Keto or Paleo diet and I am interested in trying. That first bite may be difficult.

[Sal Picante]

ALL the omega 3's...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRIr9MNmCwU


(The Polar smoked brisling sardines from WalMart... MMmmmm...)

[RONK]

Thank you all again for your reply's.peterb,primarily my goal is healthier eating.I weigh 165 lbs at 6',I do have a little fat that I'd like to loose.My glucose is a little high so I cut out simple carbs.Just looking for ideas how to live a long and healthy life.

[Wayne Dobbs]

What brand/style are you eating? I just watched a YouTube video and nearly gagged. I in no way mean to be insulting. There's just not a lot of sardine eating out in West Texas where I grew up. It looks like it should be great for a Keto or Paleo diet and I am interested in trying. That first bite may be difficult.

Texas catfish bait...

[Sal Picante]

All kidding aside...

I started Keto a year ago to contain elevated cholesterol levels. 3 months in, my numbers were looking absolutely stellar.
My total went from 250 to 180. My HDL went from ~10 to 45.

Talk to a nutritionist; In my case, I really need to be aiming for sub-20 grams of carbohydrates per day, not counting fiber, to ensure that I'm producing ketones.

The first few days/weeks are tough as you develop new eating habits; I sometimes tire of the food - it's a lot of avocados, olive oil, sardines, cheese, fatty meat - but I feel so much better on the diet than off of it... I'm almost never hungry.

There are some really great resources for doing keto cooking out there: https://www.instagram.com/lowcarbstateofmind/ is one of my favorites.
Her "pepper sandwiches" are great - I fill 'em with Pimento cheese and add ham, LTO, maybe a touch of mustard.

I fall off the wagon once in a while (usually every 3 months) and enjoy a slice of pizza, etc, but I try to really stay on it.
I find that even a small amount of carbs will kick me out of ketosis - 20 grams is NOT a lot.

Going out for food will be a giant pain in the ass - enjoy the f*(&king salads - also, the unhealthiest stuff seems to be the stuff that keeps you in ketosis:

Hot wings? :p

Queso sauce? :D

Dipping hot wings into queso and then topping with sour cream and guac? :cool:


Hit me up via DM if I can help.

[peterb]

What brand/style are you eating? I just watched a YouTube video and nearly gagged. I in no way mean to be insulting. There's just not a lot of sardine eating out in West Texas where I grew up. It looks like it should be great for a Keto or Paleo diet and I am interested in trying. That first bite may be difficult.

I understand. Eating fish with skin and bones is not normal in the modern world. You might prefer to start with a skinless or skinless & boneless variety, sometimes marketed as “sardine fillets”

https://www.kingoscar.com/products/skinless-and-boneless-sardines/

https://www.brunswick.ca/products/brunswick-sardine-fillets-in-olive-oil/

My default in my local store is Brunswick, or what’s on sale. King Oscar are widely distributed but usually a bit more expensive.

[JDB]

Keto for about 3.5-4 years. Paleo-ish for maybe 4. Low carb about 6.
All helped.

Carnivore (or 98-100% animal based) the last 3 years. That's been the ticket.

Eat fatty meat, the stuff that tastes good, to taste, until full, then stop. Then don't eat until hungry again. Add salt to taste. Eat cuts you like, but try not to add a bunch of liquid fat (and don't drink it!). Drink water when thirsty.
That's pretty much it.

Most of my diet is red meat. But also eggs, fish, seafood, occasional bird or pork.
Sometimes I'll eat some heart or liver. Maybe a few wild blueberries. Negligible amounts of greens or vegetables. Veg is used as a condiment, if at all.

To say it's been successful would be a huge understatement. I'm 46, down about 40 lbs of fat, can do 35 hanging pull ups, sleep well, no digestive problems of any kind, better skin, stable energy, can fast all day (or for days), no joint or tissue pains, no cravings, never hungry, perfect dental health (brushing teeth is a waste of time), wake up with an erection...the list of benefits goes on and on.

[JDB]

Keto for about 3.5-4 years. Paleo-ish for maybe 4. Low carb about 6.
All helped.

Carnivore (or 98-100% animal based) the last 3 years. That's been the ticket.

Eat fatty meat, the stuff that tastes good, to taste, until full, then stop. Then don't eat until hungry again. Add salt to taste. Eat cuts you like, but try not to add a bunch of liquid fat (and don't drink it!). Drink water when thirsty.
That's pretty much it.

Most of my diet is red meat. But also eggs, fish, seafood, occasional bird or pork.
Sometimes I'll eat some heart or liver. Maybe a few wild blueberries. Negligible amounts of greens or vegetables. Veg is used as a condiment, if at all.

To say it's been successful would be a huge understatement. I'm 46, down about 40 lbs of fat, can do 35 hanging pull ups, sleep well, no digestive problems of any kind, better skin, stable energy, can fast all day (or for days), no joint or tissue pains, no cravings, never hungry, perfect dental health (brushing teeth is a waste of time), wake up with an erection...the list of benefits goes on and on.


I should add, don't think it's strictly necessary to go carnivore, but it can work well for many people (maybe most).
What I do recommend is that everyone put the high quality animal protein first...make the animal protein the center of your diet. Example, eat red meat until you're full. Then maybe eat something else on the side...maybe, assuming it's real food. Or not. If you're going to eat carbs, then earn them and don't go crazy.

[UNM1136]

I have never had a sardine. Do you just eat them right out of tin can, or do you cook/prepare them somehow?

Start here. Scroll down for a couple of vids. (https://www.foodnetwork.com/shows/good-eats/videos/live-and-let-diet)

pat

[Crow Hunter]

What brand/style are you eating? I just watched a YouTube video and nearly gagged. I in no way mean to be insulting. There's just not a lot of sardine eating out in West Texas where I grew up. It looks like it should be great for a Keto or Paleo diet and I am interested in trying. That first bite may be difficult.

I usually eat them out if the can on saltines. Although I do eat them by themselves.

It is actually a hazing ritual in my department. Since i eat them at least once a week, if you are new to the department you have to at least try one bite.

Most people can't do it. Although our recent female co-op didn't even hesitate and liked them.

I personally usually get beach cliff in mustard sauce. I get them at the local Dollar General a dozen at a time. The checkout people must think I get them as pet food because they always get packed with the dog treats I get....

My wife didn't mind the taste she can't get past "eating the little spines!!!" Once she noted defined body parts she couldn't do it anymore.

I likem! 😉

[rd62]

Did keto for about 18 months and lost 40ish lbs. Got down to about what I weighed in 10th grade. This was also combined with regular exercise, both weights and cardio. The diet was initially suggested by my physician and as he said, I found it difficult to stick to indefinitely.

Once I lost the unwanted fat and wanted to put on more muscle I had to up the calories per day.

I've kept to a low carb/low sugar diet with high protein but don't seek out additional sources of fat and will occasionally have some rice or potato, but not often.

[David S.]

I kinda liked the Wild Planet and Seasons brand sardines that Costco had for a while. A dude I generally trust likes the Matiz Gallego (https://www.amazon.com/Matiz-Espa%C3%B1a-Sardines-Olive-4-2-Ounce/dp/B076VZG59P) ones. I haven't tried them.

[Sal Picante]

My wife didn't mind the taste she can't get past "eating the little spines!!!" Once she noted defined body parts she couldn't do it anymore.


I ALWAYS think of the Monty Python episode with the "Crunchy Frog" bit...

[Sal Picante]

Carnivore (or 98-100% animal based) the last 3 years. That's been the ticket.

Most of my diet is red meat. But also eggs, fish, seafood, occasional bird or pork.
Sometimes I'll eat some heart or liver. Maybe a few wild blueberries. Negligible amounts of greens or vegetables. Veg is used as a condiment, if at all.



Man... I can't live without tomatoes and mozzarella, tomato sauce on zucchini "noodles", sprouts, Brussel sprouts...
Vegetables are pretty much zero calorie, space filling gut scrubber.

I tried to eat more meat, but it was too much protein for me: it kicked me out of ketosis. Additionally, I just wasn't getting enough calories.
I think one of the things that should be highlighted in this discussion is that there seems to be evidence that actually being in ketosis for the long haul is what provides a lot of the long term health benefits.

[JDB]

Man... I can't live without tomatoes and mozzarella, tomato sauce on zucchini "noodles", sprouts, Brussel sprouts...
Vegetables are pretty much zero calorie, space filling gut scrubber.

I tried to eat more meat, but it was too much protein for me: it kicked me out of ketosis. Additionally, I just wasn't getting enough calories.
I think one of the things that should be highlighted in this discussion is that there seems to be evidence that actually being in ketosis for the long haul is what provides a lot of the long term health benefits.


I used to care about ketone levels, but stopped a long time ago. Not that I'm not a fan of ketosis, but my ultimate goal isn't ketone levels of .5 millimole or higher, its how do I feel and perform. So I probably dip in and out of ketosis near daily. And that's fine. I can go long periods in strict ketosis (like a 5 day fast, or particularly high fat with lower protein level days), but don't see the point in pursuing it (for me). I simply perform better with higher protein levels.

If not getting enough calories, eat more, and maybe play with the protein to fat ratio (up the fat). Eventually it can become intuitive. I basically eat as if I had to live off of large animals. It becomes very simple over time. In the mood for ribeye or chuck? That might be your bodies way of saying I need more fat. If the fat is unpalatable?, that could be a sign you're getting enough. Protein is hard to overeat, and fat is very satiating. I may only eat once a day, and it could be 3 pounds of chuck roast, and then I might be good for 24 hours.

At the end of the day, it's still something like 60-70% fat, 30-40% protein for me. Restricting protein to 20% (as was so popular 3-4 years ago) doesn't seem as widely beneficial as it once did, though there can be good reasons for doing it. In general, most folks would probably be better off increasing to 25% or higher protein I think. But it's a worthy experiment to see how you respond messing with those macros.

[Sig_Fiend]

I've experimented with keto, paleo, and other low carb diets quite a bit over the past ~11-12yrs. I've had success and failures with variations of them. Best success was ~60lbs dropped in 6 months using a protein-sparing modified fast. Worst failure was most recently, on "carnivore", and not losing much (I'll explain later). I'm no doctor, so take my words with a grain.

Electrolytes & Deficiencies
With low carb diets, certain micro-nutrient deficiencies can occur if you're not careful. One you'll hear mentioned is the "keto flu". Hint: it's just an electrolyte imbalance. Here's a few micros you'll want to watch carefully and supplement for accordingly:

Sodium

Salt your food significantly! With cutting carbs drastically, you'll most likey be deficient in sodium if you do not actively add it to your diet.
With low sodium, you might notice increased lethargy, headaches, etc.
Aim for at least 3g sodium per day. Several studies showed 4-6g is the optimal range for many people. For extremely fit people under significant physical exertion, some people may actually need more, at least on heavy workout days.



Potassium

With low potassium, you might notice increased lethargy, headaches, heart palpitations, muscle cramps.
Aim for at least 3g potassium per day, trying to push for 4g minimum if possible. RDA is 4.7g, however, if you start tracking your food precisely, you'll come to realize it's extremely hard to hit the RDA on a low carb diet.
To get in plenty of potassium while keeping carbs low and well under 100g/day, you're pretty much stuck with canned spinach (prefer the added sodium type), avocados, and not a whole lot else.
As a "supplement", Losalt (brand) or another salt substitute tend to have a bit of sodium and a high dose of potassium. I like to use a combo of Redmond Real Salt + Losalt to salt my food so I get a ton of each.


Magnesium

Cutting carbs significantly, you're probably going to be very low in magnesium. With what carbs you do have, try to stick to greens. Again, canned spinach helps significantly here.
As with the 2 electrolytes above, it's not uncommon to feel symptoms of lethargy and muscle cramps if you're low on magnesium. I'd aim for ~400mg/day.
A common supplement on the market that might be handy to keep around is a "ZMA" (Zinc, Magnesium, Vitamin B6) supplement. If you find you're commonly waking up with cramps in the middle of the night, try taking ZMA before you go to sleep and it can help.


There are other micros that can be problematic on low carb diets (low iodine, vitamin K1/K2, calcium, etc.). This is already getting long so, I'll stick to these main 3 for now since they seem to be the most common culprits of a lot of issues.

Dietary Fat & Weight Loss
Everyone's genetics are a bit different, so YMMV. Much of the traditional thinking and recommendations around ketogenic diets usually favor a much higher percentage of dietary fat. For me personally, I've found I just do not lose much weight, or at least lose at a significantly slower rate, when pushing dietary fat much above ~100g/day. More recently, I tried more of a "carnivore"-oriented diet for ~6 months. Most of the time I was at ~140-150g fat/day, and past the first month, weight loss slowed to a crawl. Even when in ketosis, my understanding is your body will tend to use dietary fat first before ketones (from stored fat). Keep this in mind if your weight loss plateaus, and if so, consider a test of removing 20-30g/day fat from your diet over 1-3 weeks and measuring your results.

Consider in context what this means for the other two macros and your overall calorie goals. Say your BMR or maintenance calories are 2400cal and you're aiming for 2000cal to have a 400cal deficit for weight loss. If you're at 140g fat/day (fat = 9 cal per gram), that leaves 740 calories to distribute among protein and carbs. Protein is by far the most critical, and should actually come first, even before fat. There are various equations to determine this, but you'll have to check out the resources below for that. For myself and an estimated lean body mass of ~180lbs, and at one of the conservative equations that's 0.8g/lb of LBM (0.8-1.2g is the common range you'll hear), that's 144g protein/day (protein / carbs = 4 cal per gram). In that case, there's 576cal from protein, leaving a budget of 164 calories (41g) for carbs remaining.

Now if I decide to test pulling out 20g of fat, I'll need to make up the calorie difference somehow. Using the same math above, I might shift to 180g protein, 120g fat, 50g carbs to still hit 2,000 calories. Might this affect your level of ketosis? Sure, it will for some people, but it's something you'll have to test. I'm sure you'll start to see some potential limitations when you start experimenting with those numbers.

Resources
Get yourself The Ketogenic Diet (https://store.bodyrecomposition.com/ketogenic-diet/) book by Lyle McDonald. It's the gold standard for scientific-based knowledge and recommendations on these diets.
Read the Keto FAQ (https://www.reddit.com/r/keto/wiki/faq) on Reddit.
Consider using a food-tracking app like Carb Manager (https://www.carbmanager.com/). It's the best app I've found so far since you can track micros in detail.

[RONK]

Thanks again everyone!It's difficult for me to understand that eating fat is good for you.How do these diets and also intermittent fasting affect overall health,long term health and fitness?Sig_Fiend,thank you for the resources mentioned,any other books,videos,websites that I should be looking at?thank you all again.

[Sig_Fiend]

Just stick with that book and FAQ to start with. Trust me, there's more than enough there to keep you busy experimenting for several years. Since keto has gone mainstream in the past ~5yrs, if you go looking for "more" out there, you're going to find it, and much of it will be a distraction. As with any dietary community, almost all of the low carb communities have acquired their own snake oil salesmen, shills, and influencers who will waste your time and distract from the simple fundamentals that matter most.

[JDB]

I've experimented with keto, paleo, and other low carb diets quite a bit over the past ~11-12yrs. I've had success and failures with variations of them. Best success was ~60lbs dropped in 6 months using a protein-sparing modified fast. Worst failure was most recently, on "carnivore", and not losing much (I'll explain later). I'm no doctor, so take my words with a grain.


What were your problems with carnivore, and what did carnivore consist of for you?

Thanks

[RJ]

Thanks again everyone!It's difficult for me to understand that eating fat is good for you.How do these diets and also intermittent fasting affect overall health,long term health and fitness?Sig_Fiend,thank you for the resources mentioned,any other books,videos,websites that I should be looking at?thank you all again.

There's a lot of good advice up thread. I won't repeat it but it is excellent; some of the points raised reflect the same discoveries I made over the last 12 months (except the sardines, I don't think I could handle that. Ever since I had a baby octopus look me in the eye in that Tapas restaurant in Seville Spain, I haven't been able to do the whole sea-creature thing. But I digress.) Reread Sig_Fiend's posts in particular.

From a practical standpoint for me? I can easily carry AIWB now. I can accomplish more of my daily tasks, easier. My shirts and pants fit easier without stretching. I'm not out of breath climbing a set of stairs. I look better (ok, that's debatable. :))

As to the longer term benefits, based on the surveying I've done, overall your risk of all modern chronic inflammatory diseases goes down with low carb. Chiefly (and I may not have this right, I'm no M.D.) cardiac (heart attack), atherosclerosis, Alzheimer's, High Blood Pressure, and Type 2 Diabetes.

Ivor Cummins (Chem E.) has a good overview of the root causes of these being hyperinsulinemia (insulin resistance). He is on the web and youtube, this is typical:


https://youtu.be/C8Xd9e4B3e8

[Crow Hunter]

I would like to emphasize that everyone is different. While it is true that a calorie is a calorie, people, for whatever reason, process energy differently and you will have to experiment to figure that out for yourself.

Take me and my wife.

Me:
-I can eat a honeybun before a fasting blood draw and my cholesterol, triglycerides and glucose will be normal at best. (Tried that one time at a work health fair)
-When doing it right on a blood draw, my LDL cholesterol is sometimes out of range on the low side (The health fair people don't have a good answer for that one. :) )
-If I were to consume what I crave all the time (sweets), and don't watch my portion size of non-sweets, I easily will gain weight rapidly.
-I can go for long periods of time without eating once I get over that initial set of hunger pangs, especially if I am otherwise distracted with something (like a good video game) and I can work outside or lift weights or walk for miles with no problems


Wife:
-Can eat the same thing that I do, fast like she is supposed to before the draw (no honeybun) and her cholesterol will be high and she will have borderline high glucose and A1C.
-She doesn't like sweets and rarely eats them
-She cannot miss a meal, if she does, she is extremely cranky, has a headache, complains of weakness, gets exceptionally pale and shaky, is easily confused and rather unpleasant to be around :rolleyes:

If I eat the same portions of the same foods as my wife, I literally will be a fat 200+ lbs (even exercising and only drinking water) while she will continue to be 5'4" and weigh 105-110 lbs while not exercising and drinking "Cokes" and Southern sweet tea.

You need to experiment with different options that people have mentioned and see what works best for you to help you lose weight but also not cause other problems with your health.

[Sig_Fiend]

What were your problems with carnivore, and what did carnivore consist of for you?

Thanks

No real problems. Satiety was through the roof. ;) Ability to intermittent fast without cravings was extremely easy. Overall quite satisfying, though there are some carbs I enjoy like white rice, potatoes, spinach, avocados, so I doubt I'd ever do carnivore forever.

Main issue was lack of significant weight loss past about one month. I tracked my calories, macros, and micros very carefully. Pretty regularly I was around 140-150g of fat per day, which was the main issue. My diet consisted mostly of red meat, cheese, some eggs, occasional salmon, and that's about it. I ended up switching to ground beef after the first month, because eating a couple ribeyes every day made my teeth hurt. ;) I did occasional tests of moving my overall calories by a couple hundred up or down, but best I could tell is the dietary fat levels were still high enough that it was keeping my body utilizing dietary fat vs. stored fat for longer periods throughout the day and slowing weight loss.

Keep in mind, that's just my example of me needing to lose weight. So by no means am I saying 140-150g fat/day would be an issue for someone else. For example, a very fit person simply trying to do carnivore at a maintenance level might do just fine with fat well over 100g/day. When I reach my goal weight I'll probably test carnivore again and see how things go, since I'm sure it will be a bit different. The thing to watch out for with that diet is it's basically an extreme elimination diet. Nothing wrong with that for certain purposes, but it does make it easier to run into a micro-nutrient deficiency, especially if you're not consuming any organ meets or supplementing.

[Mercworx]

I lost 80lbs on keto I went from 276 to 196 (I joined the weight loss accountability thread and just realized I havent been updating in it).

I fell off and reverted to a standard diet and gained about 24lbs back. I should clarify that by "standard" I mean I certainly overate and had too many treats. While on keto I never had a problem maintaining weight while occasionally having a treat.

Recently started again as nothing felt as good as being 196lbs.

I did whats known as "dirty" keto. I did not count macros or calories and instead just stayed away from obvious carbs and of course sugars etc.

During this process (took about 8 months) I didnt start working out until I was about 206lbs. Instead I focused my "motivation/discipline" reserves strictly to maintaining the diet. If I wanted to indugle (I was an emotional eater) I did so in the confines of the diet (extra bacon, an extra lettice wrapped burger etc) it worked for me.

I did walk an average of 10k-12k steps 4 nights per week. During this process.

[littlejerry]

Background: I dropped ~50-60 lbs about 5 years ago and have kept it off. Weight hovers between 160-170, today was 164. I did it by cutting out junk carbs(bread, fries, sweets). There were periods where I dabbled with keto and Paleo. It's a good way to cut calories and stay satieted. I also increased my activity level and get 3-5 hours of quality exercise per week(running, rucking, CrossFit, bodyweight HIIT) not including walking.

Any time I've been serious about getting exercise I've had to maintain a balanced diet. For me that's roughly 40% protein, 30% carbs, 30% fat. If I'm really upping the intensity I'll add more carbs(and protein) to get to a 40/35/25 ratio. I'm still eating nutrient dense food: sweet potatoes, quinoa, berries, apples, tomatoes, etc. and avoiding bread, white potatoes, sweets.

When I enter a sedentary phase due to work/family/life/travel I cut back my carb intake but generally maintain my fat/protein levels.

I've tried low carb during high volume training and it flat out doesn't work. I couldn't recover and kept running into a wall until I added in sweet potatoes, berries, quinoa to the mix. This was when I was doing 10-30 miles of rucking per week in addition to 3-5 hours of CrossFit and HIIT workouts.

In summary: I think Paleo and/or Keto are good tools but not magic elixirs. For me they are effective at losing or maintaining weight during sedentary periods. If my activity level is high they cause more problems than they solve.

[peterb]

I've tried low carb during high volume training and it flat out doesn't work. I couldn't recover and kept running into a wall until I added in sweet potatoes, berries, quinoa to the mix. This was when I was doing 10-30 miles of rucking per week in addition to 3-5 hours of CrossFit and HIIT workouts.

That matches everything I’ve read about fueling for endurance sports, and my own experience. Most people can get by with low-carb for low-intensity, long duration events. Above a certain intensity level they need carbs to stay fueled and recover. Fasted training — like a moderate morning workout before breakfast — can improve the ability to utilize fat, but they still need carbs when the intensity level goes up.

The trend in pro cycling is to start with a low-carb baseline and make daily adjustments to carb intake based on the training load.

As an aside, one should be cautious about using pro athletes as models to follow. What they do for peak performance is not always optimal for long-term health. They’re paid to make that tradeoff.