McCloskeys plead on misdemeanor charges; pay $2750 total fines

[Totem Polar]

https://www.kuow.org/stories/the-couple-who-waved-guns-at-blm-protesters-plead-guilty-to-misdemeanors

Patricia McCloskey, who menaced the marching crowd with her finger on the trigger of a handgun, pleaded guilty to misdemeanor harassment and was ordered to pay a fine of $2,000. Her husband, Mark McCloskey, pleaded guilty to misdemeanor fourth-degree assault for threatening the passersby with an AR-15 rifle. He was fined $750.

<snip>

…The couple will keep their law licenses and there's nothing stopping them from buying more guns in the future.

[BigDaddy]

I thought it was a $750.00 fine.

[5pins]

Probably much cheaper than fighting it.

[the Schwartz]

I understand why the McCloskeys did what they did—or at least I think that I do—but the principled side of me is of the belief that they should have fought until they were vindicated either in the lower court, or if necessary, in an appellate court.

I've been accused of "seeing things in black and white" in the past. It's more a function of my ''spit in the eye of the devil'' personality. I know that there is considerable expense in litigating matters like these, but were it me (and I am well aware that it isn't), my personal honor is worth more than saving a few bucks. In the end, I hope that they are satisfied with the outcome. I don't believe that they were wrong to defend their home in the presence of the ''mostly peaceful rioters'' given the widespread tendency towards violence displayed with alarming regularity by those types involved.

[Paul D]

I saw their house. That is probably what they pay for their monthly HOA and landscaping/yard upkeep fees.

I'm glad nothing became more of it and they were unharmed in the in original fracas.

[Trooper224]

They'll skip brunch at the club on Wednesday and they'll be fine.

[Borderland]

So there you have it. If you're going to face off with a bunch mostly peaceful protesters arm yourself with an AR. The fine will be less.

[BillSWPA]

I understand why the McCloskeys did what they did—or at least I think that I do—but the principled side of me is of the belief that they should have fought until they were vindicated either in the lower court, or if necessary, in an appellate court.

I've been accused of "seeing things in black and white" in the past. It's more a function of my ''spit in the eye of the devil'' personality. I know that there is considerable expense in litigating matters like these, but were it me (and I am well aware that it isn't), my personal honor is worth more than saving a few bucks. In the end, I hope that they are satisfied with the outcome. I don't believe that they were wrong to defend their home in the presence of the ''mostly peaceful rioters'' given the widespread tendency towards violence displayed with alarming regularity by those types involved.

The big motivating factor was probably the uncertainty of the outcome at trial.

I have always thought they were legally justified but made multiple bad decisions. A judge, or the wrong jury, could easily reach a different conclusion on the issue of justification.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[camel]

The big motivating factor was probably the uncertainty of the outcome at trial.

I have always thought they were legally justified but made multiple bad decisions. A judge, or the wrong jury, could easily reach a different conclusion on the issue of justification.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This. They ducked it up and got off easy. Unfortunately nobody likes a crowd. When you make yourself famous. When there were other choices.

[vcdgrips]

I would note I predicted the following out nearly 1 year ago. See post #401
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?43310-Keep-moving!-Couple-brandish-an-AR-15-and-a-handgun-at-protesters/page41


1. will not be felons
2. will not go to jail
3. will keep their law licenses
4. will still be millionaires and can cherry pick who they represent re personal injury and other plaintiff oriented litigation.

Standing on principles has its own costs.
a. Mr Mc is running for Sen to replace the retiring Sen Blunt. He needs this behind him
b. Mr and Mrs have millions of fees in the pipeline on pending cases and potentially tens of millions more in new business. Felony convictions mean no law licenses and potentially clients who do not get the results the want/need/deserve etc.

A 60 sec look at the docket indicates that the elected Circuit Atty and her entire staff were disqualified from the case. The Court appointed Richard G. Callahan as Special Prosecutor who billed the Court 1060 for 4.25 hours of work in resolving the case. Callahan is 30 yr plus atty who has been an atty in pvt practice, asst prosecutor, elected prosecutor, US atty and State Court judge.

https://www.lincolnu.edu/web/presidents-office/board-of-curators/callahan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_G._Callahan

The judge who sentenced the case is a 30 year plus atty/Wash U (STL) law grad who has been on the bench for 20 + years and has taught at Wash U since 1989, albeit on an adjunct basis.
https://www.yourmissourijudges.org/judges/david-c-mason/


Only slightly tongue in cheek, it seems like the adults finally got called in. They, in short order, got the same room and worked this thing out with very little muss or fuss.

[Caballoflaco]

Looks like vcdgrips has won the internets for the day.

Thanks for taking the time to post your insights on various matters around here.

[camel]

I would note I predicted the following out nearly 1 year ago. See post #401
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?43310-Keep-moving!-Couple-brandish-an-AR-15-and-a-handgun-at-protesters/page41


1. will not be felons
2. will not go to jail
3. will keep their law licenses
4. will still be millionaires and can cherry pick who they represent re personal injury and other plaintiff oriented litigation.

Standing on principles has its own costs.
a. Mr Mc is running for Sen to replace the retiring Sen Blunt. He needs this behind him
b. Mr and Mrs have millions of fees in the pipeline on pending cases and potentially tens of millions more in new business. Felony convictions mean no law licenses and potentially clients who do not get the results the want/need/deserve etc.

A 60 sec look at the docket indicates that the elected Circuit Atty and her entire staff were disqualified from the case. The Court appointed Richard G. Callahan as Special Prosecutor who billed the Court 1060 for 4.25 hours of work in resolving the case. Callahan is 30 yr plus atty who has been an atty in pvt practice, asst prosecutor, elected prosecutor, US atty and State Court judge.

https://www.lincolnu.edu/web/presidents-office/board-of-curators/callahan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_G._Callahan

The judge who sentenced the case is a 30 year plus atty/Wash U (STL) law grad who has been on the bench for 20 + years and has taught at Wash U since 1989, albeit on an adjunct basis.
https://www.yourmissourijudges.org/judges/david-c-mason/


Only slightly tongue in cheek, it seems like the adults finally got called in. They, in short order, got the same room and worked this thing out with very little muss or fuss.

Thank you. I did read your earlier post. It pays to play. Unfortunately.

[5pins]

Weren't they also promised a pardon from the Governor? If so they really had nothing to lose but money and some political clout, he's running for senate.

[the Schwartz]

The big motivating factor was probably the uncertainty of the outcome at trial.

I have always thought they were legally justified but made multiple bad decisions. A judge, or the wrong jury, could easily reach a different conclusion on the issue of justification.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Your theory makes sense and is the most probable reason behind the McCloskey's decision to mitigate losses and run. I appreciate your response in addressing my frustration at decent people who contribute to society—or at least do not burden society with themselves—being mobbed/hassled by a bunch of asinine SJWs for the sake of signalling how virtuous they are. The McCloskey's may not be the paradigm of saint-hood—Hell, who really is?—but peaceful folks, such as they are, ought to be left alone. I realize that this is probably the ''new normal'' and that there is nothing that I can do about it. Reckon I just take offense to decent people being targeted by the rabble amongst us. /rant ;)

[camel]

While the people in question did nothing wrong. They did do everything wrong. In my opinion. I’m not gonna rehash the whole situation. Or give them a trial by fire. They probably wouldn’t survive that.

They are good people who made themselves famous. They could have taken a different path. Instead. They are gonna capitalized their own actions as innocent. This isn’t the Wild West. Never has been for a few years.

[Casual Friday]

73093

[Suvorov]

73093

Referencing our A2 an 20 inch threads, I’m sad to see he went with a carbine. That A1 he had just screamed “Boomer”!

If he turned in an actual SP1, I really hope some cop can save it.

[Suvorov]

This isn’t the Wild West. Never has been for a few years.

Nor should it be the 13th century when hordes of barbarians are able to rampage through cities unopposed, yet oddly they are.

[JohnO]

Nor should it be the 13th century where hordes of barbarians are able to rampage through cities unopposed, yet oddly they are.

And look how NYC has verified the 100% off coupon code "George Floyd". https://nypost.com/2021/06/20/hundreds-of-nyc-rioters-looters-have-charges-dropped/

[RJ]

Looks like vcdgrips has won the internets for the day.

Thanks for taking the time to post your insights on various matters around here.

+1

Having the opportunity to read insightful precise comments like this from vcdgrips is why I participate in and support pistol-forum.

[olstyn]

If he turned in an actual SP1, I really hope some cop can save it.

Given that the case is resolved, evidence should now be at least possible to get returned to its owner, no?

[OlongJohnson]

Just for perspective, $2750 is probably somewhere between half a day and a day of billable time for lawyers of the caliber the McCloskeys would have representing them in this situation. I'd be surprised if it breaks out of the bottom half of single digits as a percentage of their total legal costs. In context, this is no permanent consequences, a slap on the wrist fine, and have a nice day. In other words, a win.

[vcdgrips]

olstyn says :

"Given that the case is resolved, evidence should now be at least possible to get returned to its owner, no?"

No return of the guns. Both the media reports and the docket sheet indicate that they surrendered the "firearms" as part of the plea.



OJ says- "Just for perspective, $2750 is probably somewhere between half a day and a day of billable time for lawyers of the caliber the McCloskeys would have representing them in this situation. I'd be surprised if it breaks out of the bottom half of single digits as a percentage of their total legal costs. In context, this is no permanent consequences, a slap on the wrist fine, and have a nice day. In other words, a win."

I would be surprised if the McCluskeys were paying by the hour. While I agree that a High End STL based litigator can bill and get 500@ hr, most Criminal Defense Attys bill by the job.
I concur that this was a 25-50K case on a plea, 2x that for a trial. 4x that more for an appeal and retrial (25-50/50-100/200-400)

I once had a premier criminal defense atty represent a client in an completely uncontested Felon in Possession case with video at the scene and a video statement. It was reported that this atty charged the family (who had a prior long standing relationship with the atty via a civic organization) 15k for what was always going to be a plea. I am supremely confident that the atty in question performed his due diligence re the evidence. I am also supremely confident it did not take him 30 hrs to do so from beginning to end. I was told that that atty typically charged 20K for someone unaffiliated presuming the same procedural posture. 40K-75K for a trial depending on complexity of said FIP case and the likelihood of an appeal.

Rule Number 1- In Criminal Defense when representing individual defendants (as opposed to a corporation) as per US v. "Green"-get your entire fee up front.

Rule Number 2-Presume that all the money you are ever going to get is what you get up front. Therefore it is critical to price and collect accordingly.

Rule Number 3-Always address whether the fee covers the appeal to what level

Rule Number 4-In many if not most jurisdictions once an atty enters their appearance, they are in the case forever, to any level, forever. The Court does not care that you did not get paid in full
or you only thought you were doing the trial, not the appeal absent very specific documentation to the contrary.

[blues]

^^^

OMG, vcdgrips , you almost had me shedding a tear for attorneys.

Almost...


;)


(But I will agree that a great prosecutor and a great defense counsel are gold when you need 'em. Hats off to you for doing the job. I hope it continues to be a source of satisfaction for you.)

[camel]

Nor should it be the 13th century when hordes of barbarians are able to rampage through cities unopposed, yet oddly they are.

I agree. But stupidly standing on your front lawn. And grandstanding on it. Irks me. While they took preemptive measures. Ther we’re wrong in my opinion. Better to wait and see what happens and unload on the mob when it does come. Instead of standing there waiting for a good determined bum rush. They made themselves targets. Ymmv

[blues]

I agree. But stupidly standing on your front lawn. And grandstanding on it. Irks me. While they took preemptive measures. Ther we’re wrong in my opinion. Better to wait and see what happens and unload on the mob when it does come. Instead of standing there waiting for a good determined bum rush. They made themselves targets. Ymmv

Would it be gauche to have lawn jockeys holding ARs?

[camel]

Would it be gauche to have lawn jockeys holding ARs?

They certainly could pay for it if they wanted. Maybe I see things differently. But they weren’t out there in a position of power but of force. They easily could have made the situation much worse. Including inciting the mob to pillage the little slice of America they live in. And while I wasn’t there. And I’m mmqb. And nothing was right about that situation. While they. were technically correct in their own actions. I fail to see any other problem than posturing on both sides. For stupidity.

[blues]

They certainly could pay for it if they wanted. Maybe I see things differently. But they weren’t out there in a position of power but of force. They easily could have made the situation much worse. Including inciting the mob to pillage the little slice of America they live in. And while I wasn’t there. And I’m mmqb. And nothing was right about that situation. While they. were technically correct in their own actions. I fail to see any other problem than posturing on both sides. For stupidity.

I'm not advocating for them. I was making a humorous comment. (Well, I thought it was humorous.)

That said, whether or not I agree with their tactics or decision making, I don't think they should have faced any charges.

(Even more so when one considers the actions of those who have caused ordinary Americans to consider how they will face the mob when it arrives in their neighborhood or business...whether looting, trespassing, committing arson, defacing property or causing mayhem and bodily harm.)

But then Chris Cuomo has already instructed us..."Please, show me where it says protesters are supposed to be polite and peaceful."

Personally, I'm giving Buffy and Jody a pass. (And hoping they're more prepared the next time to make better decisions.)

[camel]

I'm not advocating for them. I was making a humorous comment. (Well, I thought it was humorous.)

That said, whether or not I agree with their tactics or decision making, I don't think they should have faced any charges.

(Even more so when one considers the actions of those who have caused ordinary Americans to consider how they will face the mob when it arrives in their neighborhood or business...whether looting, trespassing, committing arson, defacing property or causing mayhem and bodily harm.)

But then Chris Cuomo has already instructed us..."Please, show me where it says protesters are supposed to be polite and peaceful."

Personally, I'm giving Buffy and Jody a pass. (And hoping they're more prepared the next time to make better decisions.)

Sorry took that out of context. We live in a strange world nowadays. And it bothers me. I got your joke the second time around my apologies

Ps. Humor is sometimes lost on me 😞

[Spartan1980]

Would it be gauche to have lawn jockeys holding ARs?

Perhaps a brace of these?

73134


P.S. I thought it was hilarious!

[olstyn]

olstyn says :

"Given that the case is resolved, evidence should now be at least possible to get returned to its owner, no?"

No return of the guns. Both the media reports and the docket sheet indicate that they surrendered the "firearms" as part of the plea.

Fair enough. I admit to not having read through the details - I was operating on base level logic that guns = property and therefore should/would be returned after they were no longer evidence. Obviously that doesn't apply if there was another agreement in place.

[kwb377]

Perhaps a brace of these?

73134



I had one of those for awhile...and my wife hated it. Found it broken one day...

Much like the "Major Award Leg Lamp", I suspect she had something to do with it.

https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.18169-9/1959392_10202615578183708_1516674012_n.jpg?_nc_cat =110&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=ba80b0&_nc_ohc=vG3MYYv2fuIAX8cN7C9&_nc_ht=scontent-atl3-1.xx&oh=3362a5d4201d06ce0995d208be8efe14&oe=60D70648

[OlongJohnson]

Perhaps a brace of these?

73134


P.S. I thought it was hilarious!

That barrel appears to be less than 16 inches, so you better not get a stock of them unless you pay the tax. But the legal future of a brace is also uncertain.

It does bring a whole new meaning to, "Say 'Hello' to my little friend!"