Near Riot Breaks Out After OIS in Anaheim...

[BaiHu]

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2012/07/21/officer-involved-shooting-reported-in-anaheim/

Anyone in the area?

[Gadfly]

From what I saw, it looked like the K9 handler did not intend for the dog to attack. It looked like the officer was chasing the dog to get it under control. (still sucks that someone was bitten, but it looked like the officer was trying to restrain the dog). Toward the end of the video, the sobbing female witness stated something about the police over reacting just because someone was throwing a water bottle... Perhaps the officers opened up with "pepper balls" BECAUSE people were throwing items at the officers. Funny how no one ever get video of the crowd taunting or attacking the officers, but as so as the officers react, the cameras are rolling.

The shooting victim is known throughout the neighborhood as "Stomper"? I am sure he earned that fine nickname through a life of clean living and community service. :rolleyes:

[BaiHu]

Yup, Gadfly, that's pretty much how I saw it as well. I especially laughed about 'Stomper' and thought the same thing.

[Firestickfilms]

It doesn't sound like "Stomper" was the most upstanding citizen but killing a man for running away is not a justified use of force, it's cowardice. Run him down, arrest him or canvas the community and figure out what he's up to, probably something bad, but enough to warrant a death sentance on the spot. I doubt it.

I can tell you this from living in So Cal my whole life, you never see the cops shoot white people running away. We have a pretty horrendous record of racial profiling and police abuse here (including legal gun owners). The LAPD has a "Gun Squad" that has closed all but one of the gun stores in LA City, and they routinely harass the ones in the other incorperated areas. I feel bad that they're streched thin but the answer is not draconinan tactics like these.

[BaiHu]

It doesn't sound like "Stomper" was the most upstanding citizen but killing a man for running away is not a justified use of force, it's cowardice. Run him down, arrest him or canvas the community and figure out what he's up to, probably something bad, but enough to warrant a death sentance on the spot. I doubt it.

I can tell you this from living in So Cal my whole life, you never see the cops shoot white people running away. We have a pretty horrendous record of racial profiling and police abuse here (including legal gun owners). The LAPD has a "Gun Squad" that has closed all but one of the gun stores in LA City, and they routinely harass the ones in the other incorperated areas. I feel bad that they're streched thin but the answer is not draconinan tactics like these.

I'd like to hear more about how/why 'Stomper' ran. Regarding the LGS, why have they shut down the gun stores unless they were moving guns illegally?

[Firestickfilms]

By shut down I don't mean they were closed by the police, I mean they closed because the environment created buy the Police was driving away their business. As to why "Stomper" ran, unless he had a weapon and was an immediate threat I don't see how lethal force was justified.

[ToddG]

It doesn't sound like "Stomper" was the most upstanding citizen but killing a man for running away is not a justified use of force, it's cowardice.


What initiated the contact between "Stomper" and the police?
What preceded "Stomper" running from the police?
Was "Stomper" armed?
Did "Stomper" do or say anything that would lead pursuing police officers to believe he was immediately dangerous to the officers or bystanders?
Where was "Stomper" running from, and where was he running to?
Does "Stomper" have a history of violence, and particularly a history of violence against police officers?
Does "Stomper" have a history of being armed?
Finally, what is the source of your information in answering these questions?


Until you can answer these questions, calling the officers cowards and declaring the use of force unjustified are premature.

[Coyotesfan97]

It doesn't sound like "Stomper" was the most upstanding citizen but killing a man for running away is not a justified use of force, it's cowardice. Run him down, arrest him or canvas the community and figure out what he's up to, probably something bad, but enough to warrant a death sentance on the spot. I doubt it.


From Lawofficer.com: Late Sunday, anti-gang officers spotted a gang member in a stolen sport utility vehicle, and a brief pursuit ended when three people jumped from the SUV and ran, authorities said.

Sgt. Bob Dunn said officers were chasing the suspects on foot when one of them fired one or two rounds at an officer. The officer retuned fire, killing the gunman.

http://www.lawofficer.com/article/news/protest-anaheim-after-officer

Stomper, it appears, was doing a little more than running.

I kept replaying the video trying to figure out what was going on with the K9. I can't tell what happened before the dog ran up to the lady with the stroller. Either the dog was sent on someone else and found another target or it got away from the handler. She, at worst, got nipped. The guy on the ground now that was a full mouth bite. The handler lost his grip on the dog before that though.

You know if you don't want to end up in a riot with your kids don't take them to a protest in the 'hood.

[Firestickfilms]

That was a seperate incident unrelated to "Stomper"...

"Hours later and several miles from the Saturday afternoon shooting, there was a second deadly Anaheim police shooting."

In regards to "Stomper"...

"Police Chief John Welter said two officers were placed on paid leave after one of them fatally shot Manuel Diaz, 24, Saturday afternoon."

"He said the officers approached three men who were acting suspiciously in an alleyway when they ran away. One of the officers chased Diaz to the front of an apartment complex where the shooting occurred."

"Welter would not say what led the officer to shoot Diaz, citing an independent investigation by the county's district attorney office. Police said Diaz was a known gang member."

Now we can't know the facts that led to the shooting, if the officers were threatend or attacked when Diaz was cornered then it may be justified but the fact that they're on leave and a DA is looking into it seems to suggest they were not fired upon and the suspects were not likely armed.

If they were credibly threatend then it was justified, if not then it was either an ND or worse and the officer(s) should answer for it.

I've got nothing aginst LEOs, the vast majority are honable public servants that do a fantastic job, I have an uncle that's a detective in SF and I work on a Police drama television show. However if you live in So Cal you know that the crime and gang plauged areas are notoriously hard to patrol. It's understandable for the officers in these areas to be more wary of gang members, but it's not OK for them to shoot first and ask questions latter or racialy profile, even if it is more expedient.

And if you don't think profiling could affect you, know that in CA if you have legally purchased a handgun that it's noted in the DMV file and shows up on the screen of the police cruiser if you get pulled over.

[ToddG]

Now we can't know the facts that led to the shooting, if the officers were threatend or attacked when Diaz was cornered then it may be justified but the fact that they're on leave and a DA is looking into it seems to suggest they were not fired upon and the suspects were not likely armed.

What is the normal process when an officer from the department shoots someone in the line of duty? Does it include being put on paid leave? Does it spark a DA investigation?


but it's not OK for them to shoot first and ask questions latter or racialy profile, even if it is more expedient.

Not, it's not OK for them to do that. But unless you have some facts suggesting that happened here, it's irrelevant to the thread.

[Coyotesfan97]

My bad I didn't pick up it was the second shooting. Stand by they come in threes (police lore). Also it looks like the dog got out of the car accidentally.

Firestick has your show's technical adviser or your uncle worked in a gang infested neighborhood? Ask them what it's like.

[Firestickfilms]

What is the normal process when an officer from the department shoots someone in the line of duty? Does it include being put on paid leave? Does it spark a DA investigation?

I don't know the proceedure, but it's not mentioned that the officer involved in the gang shoting later in the day, who was obviously justifed after being fired upon, having the same leave or DA investigation.



Not, it's not OK for them to do that. But unless you have some facts suggesting that happened here, it's irrelevant to the thread.

I only have the same news reports everyone else had, but the fact that there was a riot-like occurance, investigations, and all too familiar circumstances are enough to be suspicious of misconduct. Just as the OP suspected "Stomper" was a bad guy, which he probably was as well.

[Firestickfilms]

Firestick has your show's technical adviser or your uncle worked in a gang infested neighborhood? Ask them what it's like.

I have, it's hell. I sympathize with the challenge, one I know I'm not up to. However as police officers they are held to a higher standard. It's not easy and it's not simple or obvious who's a bad guy and who's a good guy. Generally the whole population of these neighborhoods is weary of you at best and sometimes more frightend of the police than the gang members, becasue they are probably related/aquanited or are neighbors with them. That's why it's so critical to not bend the rules, if the neighborhood has any reason to suspect the Police are not on their side they will turn to the only other "force" they have.

[Al T.]

they're on leave and a DA is looking into it seems to suggest they were not fired upon and the suspects were not likely armed.


That's a wildly Democrat view point. And it's inaccurate as heck. Even here in my rural state, all police involved shooting result in the officer being placed on leave or at least off the streets and the DA investigates.

You're frame of reference is horribly warped.

[ToddG]

I don't know the proceedure,

/end

If you don't know the procedure, then all the conjecture in the world about what you imagine it is or isn't doesn't mean much when trying to assess whether the post-shooting actions taken by the department and local DA are indicative of anything whatsoever. As has been mentioned, it's not at all uncommon for all OISs in some jurisdictions to be treated this way. Even if that is not policy, it's certainly going to happen when there is public outcry regardless of whether there is any evidence of wrongdoing on the officers' part. Plenty of OIS investigations are done with the rather obvious intention of showing that the officers were justified.


I only have the same news reports everyone else had, but the fact that there was a riot-like occurance, investigations, and all too familiar circumstances are enough to be suspicious of misconduct.

From the land where the Rodney King officers were hung out to dry but OJ was set free? You and I are on very different wavelengths.

[LittleLebowski]

In this thread, CoyotesFan97 is an SME (to me).

[Firestickfilms]

/end

Why is it OK to speculate about the suspect/victim being a criminal, and not about the officer's conduct?



From the land where the Rodney King officers were hung out to dry

I was here, and in high school at the time, it's a miscarrige of justice that they didn't spend time in prison for that.


but OJ was set free? You and I are on very different wavelengths.

I agree, OJ killed her and bought the jury, money, power and influence go both ways.

Yes, we are on different wavelenghts, but there is a very ironic parallel here, in another thread a member posted a Youtube link of Ice-T affirming 2A rights (on the BBC I think). He spoke directly about the need to have a way to rid ouselves of tyrants and protect ourselves from the government but I doubt he's talking about Obamacare. I brought up that nobody noticed the reference to KRS One's hit rap song "Sound of da police". Specifically "there can never really be justice on stolen land". For Ice-T and many in the inner city the 2A is there to protect them from the police.

My personal perspective is neutral, I don't give them the benefit of the doubt or undue prejudice. LEOs are truly admirable on a personal level, as an institution they are prone to all the same flaws and weaknesses of any other bureaucracy.

[texag]

My personal perspective is neutral, I don't give them the benefit of the doubt or undue prejudice. LEOs are truly admirable on a personal level, as an institution they are prone to all the same flaws and weaknesses of any other bureaucracy.

Your posts say otherwise.

[Kyle Reese]

I'm sure that "Stomper" was a pillar of that community, and that he was in the process of turning his life around. :rolleyes:

[ford.304]

I'm sure that "Stomper" was a pillar of that community, and that he was in the process of turning his life around. :rolleyes:

Maybe it was just his Call of Duty handle? ;-)

Regardless, the punishment for being an idiot who sells weed, does occasional and runs from the cops when approached isn't summary execution. Just saying, dude deserves some small benefit of the doubt, too.

As with all OIS - hopefully there's a clean process, proper investigation, and whoever was in the wrong receives appropriate sentence, and whoever was in the right gets restitution and/or full reinstatement. Picking sides early never ends well, especially using media coverage as a source :(

[Gadfly]

Per Policeone.com, the dog was not let loose on purpose, but got away from the handler, as it appears in the video...

www.policeone.com/Crowd-Control/articles/5844292-Video-Melee-after-Calif-officer-involved-shooting (http://www.policeone.com/Crowd-Control/articles/5844292-Video-Melee-after-Calif-officer-involved-shooting)
"The shooting sparked a melee in the neighborhood as some threw rocks and bottles at officers who were securing the scene for investigators to collect evidence. Sgt. Bob Dunn, the department's spokesman, said that as officers detained an instigator, the crowd advanced on officers so they fired bean bags and pepper balls at them.

Video captured by a KCAL-TV crew showed a chaotic scene as some people ducked to the ground and others scattered screaming. A man is seen yelling at an officer even as a weapon is pointed at him; two adults huddled to shield a boy and girl. Meanwhile, a police dog charged at several people sitting on the grass, including a woman and a child in a stroller, before biting a man in the arm.

Dunn said the dog accidentally got out of a patrol car. He said he didn't know whether police warned the crowd to disperse before firing the rubber bullets and pepper balls."

As for Firestickfilms views on this, almost every department in the country puts someone on desk duty/admin leave in the wake of a shooting no matter what. It allows the officer time to decompress and deal with the immense psychological effects of having had to take a life, even if it was totally justified. It also gives the public a sense of "we take every shooting seriously, and we are making sure the officer did the right thing before we put him back on the street"... It is just simpler to automatically give the officer involved a few days to a few weeks out of the public eye while the facts get sorted out.

Firestickfilms, you need to realize the officers perception of the situation as it unfolded is what will be judged, not 20/20 hindsight. At the time the officer pulled the trigger, did he reasonably fear for his life or the life of others? Did "Stomper" fail to obey lawful commands, refuse to show his hands, point something at the officers, throw something at the officers, charge the officers? Even if Stomper did not turn out to actually have a gun or knife, there are a lot of actions that he could do that would get him justifiably shot by an officer. Even if there is no weapon, this could still be a clean shooting based on the officer perception of a threat...

Do a little more reading on the subject and the effects of stress on the perception of an officer in a deadly force encounter. Dave Gossman's book "On Killing" is one good place to start.

[ToddG]

Regardless, the punishment for being an idiot who sells weed, does occasional and runs from the cops when approached isn't summary execution. Just saying, dude deserves some small benefit of the doubt, too.

Call me a lemming, but when a trained, sworn career police officer uses lethal force in the course of his duties, he's the one who gets the benefit of the doubt from me until and unless facts come to light suggesting he was at fault.

Can cops make mistakes? Sure. Can they do bad things? Sure. But if you're asking me to guess whether the criminal or the cop was in the wrong... easy guess.

[ford.304]

Call me a lemming, but when a trained, sworn career police officer uses lethal force in the course of his duties, he's the one who gets the benefit of the doubt from me until and unless facts come to light suggesting he was at fault.

Can cops make mistakes? Sure. Can they do bad things? Sure. But if you're asking me to guess whether the criminal or the cop was in the wrong... easy guess.

If I were starting on the side of the deceased, I'd be calling for the officer to be in jail, rather than on leave pending an investigation ;-) The fact that the response is to give the guy a few days or weeks off to collect himself until an internal (rather than criminal) investigation completes already indicates a huge benefit of the doubt over some guy on the street shooting someone.

And I agree that's how it should be, because most of the time cops are in the right when they're using force. I don't mean to dispute that. I guess I'm trying to express more of a "trust, but verify" mindset. Hopefully more information will eventually emerge to show that the officer had a better reason for his actions than the guy he was chasing being a thug, which is what we seem to be basing our current commentary on.

[Coyotesfan97]

You know sometimes bangers are real comedians. They like to joke during high risk stops. Their idea of comedy is to drop their hands and dig in their waistbands like they're trying to draw a pistol and then dont comply with orders to put their hands up again. HA HA HA

Another way they like to mess with the police is during foot chases they spin around and point their hands back like they're getting ready to shoot at you. Sometimes they have common objects like cell phones in their hands that look like pistols. HA HA HA

Sometimes you cut the pie around a corner where you last saw the suspect instead of blindly running around it and you find him waiting with a real gun ready to ambush you. That happened to a Detective I worked with. It's actually a gang tactic in CA to draw cops into foot chases with the hope of ambushing them.

It's like the Jack Links beef jerky commercials about messing with Sasquatch. You mess with cops sometimes bad things happen. I'm not excusing anything illegal but pointing out people's actions have consequences and cops are reacting for the most part to the stimuli of the incident. You're dealing with a wholly different mindset when you working gangs. They do things that make absolutely no sense. Hell watch the Thug Life video that's posted on one of the threads.

Firestick it's the individual that goes down the dark alley not the institution or the bureaucracy. Is this a play on supporting the troops but not the war? Usually I find the people saying that don't really like the troops all that much in the end. Although a lot of street cops don't like the bureaucracy either...

By the way two of the Officers involved in the Rodney King incident did Federal prison time, one was acquitted, and one testified against the others for the Feds IIRC.

I don't know what happened in Anaheim. That will come out in time. If Stomper wasn't armed my opinion is that he did something cause a reaction. I guess we'll see.

[BaiHu]

Worsening:

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/07/25/12941221-shop-windows-smashed-fires-reported-as-anaheim-protest-turns-violent?lite

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

[LittleLebowski]

Coyotesfan97 will have to confirm but from what I understand, many K9 handlers have a button on their vest that opens the car doors if pressed. I believe the dogs are trained to come out in attack mode as it's theorretically an emergency for their handler. It's not a big jump for me to imagine someone rioter hitting a K9 handler's vest and triggering the release of the dog. I've read of a case in which this happened to an officer responding to the scene of a domestic violence incident. The dog came barreling into the house; ready to do battle after his handler got assaulted.

[secondstoryguy]

You know sometimes bangers are real comedians. They like to joke during high risk stops. Their idea of comedy is to drop their hands and dig in their waistbands like they're trying to draw a pistol and then dont comply with orders to put their hands up again. HA HA HA

Another way they like to mess with the police is during foot chases they spin around and point their hands back like they're getting ready to shoot at you. Sometimes they have common objects like cell phones in their hands that look like pistols. HA HA HA

Sometimes you cut the pie around a corner where you last saw the suspect instead of blindly running around it and you find him waiting with a real gun ready to ambush you. That happened to a Detective I worked with. It's actually a gang tactic in CA to draw cops into foot chases with the hope of ambushing them.

It's like the Jack Links beef jerky commercials about messing with Sasquatch. You mess with cops sometimes bad things happen. I'm not excusing anything illegal but pointing out people's actions have consequences and cops are reacting for the most part to the stimuli of the incident. You're dealing with a wholly different mindset when you working gangs. They do things that make absolutely no sense. Hell watch the Thug Life video that's posted on one of the threads.

Firestick it's the individual that goes down the dark alley not the institution or the bureaucracy. Is this a play on supporting the troops but not the war? Usually I find the people saying that don't really like the troops all that much in the end. Although a lot of street cops don't like the bureaucracy either...


Great thoughts here. I like the messing with sasquach analogy. Being a cop is a really tough job. One of the toughest parts is having to go to court and listening to civilian libo-tards armchair quarterbacking what you could have done better or different during a dynamic life and death situation. It would be similar to me, having never flown a plane, walking into the cockpit of a 747 judging the pilot on how he's doing his job. But that's how it rolls out...your often judged by 12 morons who were too stupid to figure out a way to get out of jury duty.

Scumbags have every advantage both tactically and legally. If your a scumbag and you've been thought the system you know that getting shot without having a gun(even if it's due to your own stupidity)and surviving it usually means big $$$ from the lawyers. And here in uber-liberal Austin,TX even if you get shot and killed while pointing a gun at the police your family gets rich.

[rudy99]

This situation is oddly familiar to an OIS that happened in Dallas yesterday: http://www.myfoxdfw.com/story/19107810/south-dallas-quieter-today-after-tense-confrontation and http://www.myfoxdfw.com/story/19103767/police-kill-suspect-in-pleasant-grove.


Brown said four suspects fled the house via various means, including by breaking windows. He said officers saw a gun on a table in the house and that crack cocaine was also present.

According to Brown, eight-year DPD veteran Officer Brian Rowden chased James Harper, fighting the suspect three times. Rowden was losing the fight and was exhausted when, according to Brown, Harper said, "You're going to have to kill me."

Rowden feared for his life and fatally shot Harper, Brown said.

Word of the shooting quickly spread through the neighborhood as family members and the curious rushed to the scene, eventually amassing in the hundreds and prompting police to call for additional crowd control, including SWAT. In fact, officers armed with pepper ball guns and shields forced the crowd back amid reports of people trying to cut through fences to gain access to the shooting scene.

The slain man's inconsolable mother and enraged father confronted police and media at the scene. Both said their 31-year-old son was unarmed and fleeing police when he was shot in the back.

"No reason for him to be shot like a dog. If he's running away from them, ain't no reason," James White said.

However, Brown downplayed that possibility. "We don't believe any of the family members witnessed anything," Brown said, adding that family members make similar claims "on almost every shooting."

Basically the OIS inspired people to take to the streets and the police showed up to the scene in riot gear. Fortunately nothing happened in the aftermath, but it is an oddly similar situation.

[Coyotesfan97]

Coyotesfan97 will have to confirm but from what I understand, many K9 handlers have a button on their vest that opens the car doors if pressed. I believe the dogs are trained to come out in attack mode as it's theorretically an emergency for their handler. It's not a big jump for me to imagine someone rioter hitting a K9 handler's vest and triggering the release of the dog. I've read of a case in which this happened to an officer responding to the scene of a domestic violence incident. The dog came barreling into the house; ready to do battle after his handler got assaulted.

Yes most do. We call it the door popper. You have it summed up pretty good. It's available to hit if you're fighting someone. I wouldn't purposefully hit it if I was completely out of sight. The dogs are trained to come out looking for a target to bite.

I've seen shirts with the saying "when the door pops the BS stops" usually under the picture of a full mouth bark. I don't have one.

My unit has a fairly deep cut hole in it to hit the button. That makes it harder to hit accidentally.

Another scenario might be something like this. The inserts the dogs ride in usually have sliding panels in the front. This gives you access to the dog from the front seats. Some guys leave then open all the time. If you jump out of the car and leave the driver door or a window open guess who will jump out.

Some agencies leave the rear windows open and train the dog not to jump out unless called. If you give the dog enough stimulus (like a riot) he'll jump out. I'd bet most Southern CA agencies don't use this method.

It could have been the handler opening the door to put the dog on leash and it shoved by him before he could grab him or put the leash on. In a situation like what was going on I'd open the door just enough to grab his collar or harness while telling him to stay.

Another remote possibility is someone other than the handler opened the car door. Maybe someone thinking it was their car and opening the door to get gear. I've seen Officers with handcuffed prisoners walk to k9 cars and look like they were going to open the door. That brings a quick yell to stop.

Our dogs are incredibly well trained but they have the impulse control/descision making skills of a five year old. If you give a street proven, veteran dog the chance to bite its almost guaranteed he will. It's why you have to be careful with them around suspects that aren't going to be bit, Officers, and bystanders.

[ford.304]

Our dogs are incredibly well trained but they have the impulse control/descision making skills of a five year old. If you give a street proven, veteran dog the chance to bite its almost guaranteed he will. It's why you have to be careful with them around suspects that aren't going to be bit, Officers, and bystanders.

Pretty similar to an officer's gun. The dog's a tool, and if you aren't careful with it, you get a ND.

[LtDave]

What is the normal process when an officer from the department shoots someone in the line of duty? Does it include being put on paid leave? Does it spark a DA investigation?



Not, it's not OK for them to do that. But unless you have some facts suggesting that happened here, it's irrelevant to the thread.

Yes and yes. Paid leave is pretty standard, also usually required to talk with dept psychologist as well before being cleared for duty. DA "rollout" for officer involved shootings is also standard procedure in LA and Orange County. In Orange Co the DA investigators respond on all homicides and have for many years.

[ToddG]

Yes and yes. Paid leave is pretty standard, also usually required to talk with dept psychologist as well before being cleared for duty. DA "rollout" for officer involved shootings is also standard procedure in LA and Orange County. In Orange Co the DA investigators respond on all homicides and have for many years.

LtDave -- Thanks! Funny how the media forgot to mention all that...

[Shellback]

Not to get too far off into the weeds but would there typically be consequences for the K9 like there would be for Joe Schmuckatelli's dog tearing off and biting someone? What if the dude who got munched on smoked the K9? Just curious and not looking for an argument.

[roscoeheater]

Manuel Diaz was unarmed and fleeing Anaheim Police.
Anaheim Police officers shot Manuel Diaz in the buttocks.
Manuel Diaz fell to his knees.
Anaheim Police officers shot Manuel Diaz, again, in the back of the head.

Manuel Diaz was last a resident of Santa Ana, though he was raised in Anaheim.
Manuel Diaz was nicknamed Stomper for his aggressive football playing in High School.

Manuel Diaz was face down, bleeding into the lawn, when witnesses asked Anaheim Police officers
to call for medical assistance. Anaheim Police officers responded with yellow tape, and forced
witnesses to move away from the crime scene. Manuel Diaz was declared dead, two hours later
at the hospital. Witnesses, including women and children, where fired upon by Anaheim Police
officers using capsaicin rounds and rubber bullets.

How can any of you justify an execution, at 4pm on a sunny Saturday, in front of children at play?
How can any of you justify Police officers using firearms on small children?

If you lived in Orange County you would know the reputation of our local police.
I live in a city near Anaheim where two officers are on trial for homicide, do you know the city?

[ToddG]

Instead of blaming police for using OC against "women and children," how about some f'ing outrage towards the idiot parents who brought their small children to a riot?!?

[Kyle Reese]

Roscoe,
Did you personally witness the "events" that you posted, or are you here promoting an agenda?

[Shellback]

Instead of blaming police for using OC against "women and children," how about some f'ing outrage towards the idiot parents who brought their small children to a riot?!?

Reminds me of "parents" who take their young children to midnight showings of Batman.

[jstyer]

While I get your line of reasoning Irish, Midnight Premier of Batman != Riots in the street.

[roscoeheater]

Instead of blaming police for using OC against "women and children," how about some f'ing outrage towards the idiot parents who brought their small children to a riot?!?

The residents of Anna street were asking the police to call for an ambulance.
When the police refused, the neighbors became increasingly angry and shouted for officers to bring Chief Welter to the scene.
Witnesses said that Anaheim Police officers shot at the protesting residents without issuing an order to disburse.
I am not outraged that parents would allow their children to run around and play outside their residence.
Anna street is a poor neighborhood that is under served by the City of Anaheim.
The children were in the area, playing, when Manuel Diaz was shot in the head.
The children saw the fatal shot and they were in the line of fire.


After the police shot at women and children, the residents retreated to the safety of their apartments.
It was later that the young men of the neighborhood rolled a dumpster into the street.
The police returned to roll the dumpster out of the street.
It turned into a back and forth of police and young men that the news media are calling a riot.
A burning dumpster in the street is not the same as asking for the Chief of Police to come to the scene.

That was Saturday July 21 2012.
There have been demonstrations since that day that have also been called riots by the news media.
Are you confused regarding the timeline?

I am not outraged, I with remain calm and watch for the final disposition of the Diaz shooting.

The residents of poor neighborhoods in Anaheim are the outraged people because the police shot
another young man on Monday July 22 2012 and shot at another two men on Friday July 27 2012.
All these police shootings are unrelated, but to the poor of Anaheim it seems as though the police
are too quick to shoot fleeing suspects in the back. That was accepted police procedure when I was
a child growing up in Anaheim, now not so much.

[roscoeheater]

Roscoe,
Did you personally witness the "events" that you posted, or are you here promoting an agenda?

Do you answer questions with questions?

[Kyle Reese]

Do you answer questions with questions?

Thank you for answering my question and confirming my suspicions.

[texag]

Although the know it all is already gone, it's SOP for pretty much every department not to have the ambulance come on scene until it's safe. A crowd of angry people != safe. Same thing happened in an Oakland shooting last year. Turd gets dropped, angry crowd forms demanding ambulance, ambulance can't come because of angry crowd demanding ambulance, and the cops get blamed by a public and media that has zero insight into why things were done the way they were.

[BaiHu]

Although the know it all is already gone, it's SOP for pretty much every department not to have the ambulance come on scene until it's safe. A crowd of angry people != safe. Same thing happened in an Oakland shooting last year. Turd gets dropped, angry crowd forms demanding ambulance, ambulance can't come because of angry crowd demanding ambulance, and the cops get blamed by a public and media that has zero insight into why things were done the way they were.

Excellent point.

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[NickA]

Tangent to the K9 angle:
http://www.ksat.com/news/Sources-Death-of-2-Bexar-County-Sheriff-s-Office-K-9s-preventable/-/478452/15849378/-/flk8rfz/-/index.html
Not saying it's what happened here, but I wonder if the heat alarms referred to in the story could be another way for a dog to accidentally get loose.
Damn shame about the dogs in the story.

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[peterb]

Hot-n-pop: remote door opener and heat alarm for K9s. http://www.acek9.com/

[Coyotesfan97]

The heat alarm wouldn't pop the door. Heat alarms monitor the inside car temperature and when it hits a certain setting ( hot or cold) the horn starts honking, headlights flash, the windows roll down, and a fan mounted to the window starts up pulling air out. The doors stay shut.

Some systems combine the heat alarm and door popper. My car has a Ray Allen system in it with a remote that I can look at to see what the interior temperature is. It also as the door popper button.

Reference the story I can't even imagine how you forget two dogs in your car for thirty hours. The heat alarm, depending on how it's wired, might have saved them or it might not have. I have to turn my heat alarm off manually. The Ace K9 system can be set to turn off when the car is shut off.

If I forget to turn off my heat alarm, yes it's happened, I get a reminder in a little bit when the horn starts blowing in the garage. But I take my dog to his kennel before I pull the car into the garage and then he gets fed. I can't imagine leaving him like that. It happens but I don't understand it.

[Tamara]

Heat alarms monitor the inside car temperature and when it hits a certain setting ( hot or cold) the horn starts honking, headlights flash, the windows roll down, and a fan mounted to the window starts up pulling air out. The doors stay shut.

Five gets you ten Detroit has to include this as factory equipment in all cars by the 2020 model year.

(...and I'm only half-kidding.)

[NickA]

The heat alarm wouldn't pop the door. Heat alarms monitor the inside car temperature and when it hits a certain setting ( hot or cold) the horn starts honking, headlights flash, the windows roll down, and a fan mounted to the window starts up pulling air out. The doors stay shut.

Some systems combine the heat alarm and door popper. My car has a Ray Allen system in it with a remote that I can look at to see what the interior temperature is. It also as the door popper button.

Reference the story I can't even imagine how you forget two dogs in your car for thirty hours. The heat alarm, depending on how it's wired, might have saved them or it might not have. I have to turn my heat alarm off manually. The Ace K9 system can be set to turn off when the car is shut off.

If I forget to turn off my heat alarm, yes it's happened, I get a reminder in a little bit when the horn starts blowing in the garage. But I take my dog to his kennel before I pull the car into the garage and then he gets fed. I can't imagine leaving him like that. It happens but I don't understand it.

Thanks for the insight; I'm always fascinated by the minutiae of how cop stuff works. I had no idea that heat alarms existed until reading that article.

Five gets you ten Detroit has to include this as factory equipment in all cars by the 2020 model year.

(...and I'm only half-kidding.)

With the (no pun intended) alarming frequency that people leave not only dogs but actual children in cars, I wonder if that would be a bad idea.

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[Coyotesfan97]

Five gets you ten Detroit has to include this as factory equipment in all cars by the 2020 model year.

(...and I'm only half-kidding.)

Looking at the half not kidding part a heat alarm as a factory option wouldn't work. Heat alarms are designed so you can leave your car running to provide cool or heat to the dog in the kennel. If the engine dies the alarm goes off. If you turn your car off and leave a dog or a kid in it the heat alarm turns off but doesn't provide protection since its shut off and the temp will rise or fall.

Now if you look at a system where there is a weight sensor in the seats, like you have in some models, that turns the passenger airbag on and off and adapt it so an alarms sounds when there is weight on the seats and the temperature rises or falls above/below a certain point you might have something.

There was a heat alarm system being developed that would have a weight sensor under the floor mats of the K9 insert. If the car is turned off and there is a weight above say 50 pounds resting on the mats the alarms sounds after a short period of time. The last I saw it was pretty expensive and I'm sure mandating it in cars wouldn't cause the cost of a new car to rise more than $5000 or so.

I'm sure the .Gov wouldn't force car makers to do something like that for the children....Wait scratch the last two paragraphs. It's totally unfeasible idea and should never be considered. :cool: